[czbegenner]

I was just reading about home defense weapons, and one type of ammo it said was a slug,Now i have 00buck but what good would slugs do me.Will they
preform any better than 00buck? If so where can i get some slugs for my 870
rem ?:what:

[rantingredneck]

In typical HD situations 00 buck is your best bet. There are possible situations though where it's less than ideal:

1) Shooting at more than 25 yds. But then is it self defense? Depends on the situation. Is the guy running away from you or kneeling 100 yds away firing at you with an AR15? Not that it's terribly likely, but........

2) When penetration through intermediate barriers is needed. If the guy who just broke into your house is hiding behind your fridge, slugs would penetrate better. That being said I'd have a hard time hitting the skinny SOB that could fit behind my fridge. :)

3) When more precise shooting is needed. If they BG is using a loved one as a human shield and all you have is a shotgun loaded with 00 buck then you don't really have the option of a CNS shot to end the hostage situation. Risky even with slugs or single projectile rounds, extremely risky with buckshot.

All things being equal 00 buck will take care of 99.99% of HD situations that actually require firing the gun. But there's always that .01%

All of the above is just my .02. Your situation, and your mileage, may vary.

[czbegenner]

Thanks for that good info.I will take everything you say to heart,and weigh
it with what i think,i will still keep my 00buck(always),but i might go and get some slugs for the range,just to see the effects . Thanks again

[Fast Frank]

I think it depends more on where you are, and what your possible defense scenarios are.

I'm not rich, or influential, so I really doubt that a well trained six man hit squad is going to invade my house for political reasons or extortion. There won't be any body armor.

If I have to defend my self and/or my home, it's most likely going to be your garden variety criminal looking for money for drugs.

I live in an urban area, so bears and the like aren't an issue.

My house sits on a small lot, and I have neighbors on both sides.

I can't shoot past the boundaries of my property, and that's about 30 yards from the house.

For me, slugs are the wrong choice in ammo. I have "00" and I believe it will do any home defense work I need just fine.

If you live in a cabin in Alaska, and have millions of dollars, and have done things that would cause people to want you dead, then maybe one shotgun and some buckshot might not be enough.

For the rest of us average Joes, however, it works just fine.

[Trifler]

The instructors at the gun range I go to that has classes recommend having mostly buckshot but also having 10-20 slugs around just in case the perp happens to be wearing some kind of light body armor. In such a case they said the buckshot would knock them down, knock the wind out of them, and likely break one or more ribs, but they would get up again, either to continue being aggressive or to run away. Of course, light body armor won't help their arms and legs. Another possible scenario is if they grab your kid and drag them back to their car for a getaway you'll have a better chance of disabling the car with slugs than with buckshot, but then again you probably won't have time to reload, so as usual, it's all relative. :)

[davinci]

czbegenner: the likelyhood of you EVER using your shotgun in a home defense situation is very slim. Very very slim. You've got better luck with the lottery. I'm just comparing the number of people in the newspaper who win the lottery with the number of home invasions (not burglaries) that I see in the paper. For some reason, it seems like burglars want in when you're not home. odd.

that said, don't worry about it to much. It's not worth fantasizing about the situations where you'd need slugs versus 00buck or #1 buck versus birdshot versus an AR-15 versus a handgun.

If you read all the posts on here, you'll find the best combination in a home invasion involves at least 5 rounds of slugs, 50 of buckshot, two flashlights, a laser sight, body armor, an ar-15, a set of earplugs, more body armor and a pack of skittles. Your best bet, get a dog...and keep your house from being a target if you can.

[Fred Fuller]

Unless they print the full police 'blotter' for your area, newspapers are a poor source of data to form opinions on crime in your area. Better you should invest in a scanner and listen to LEO radio traffic for a while, if you want to know more about what's really going on in your area. Even so, you have to sleep sometime- and stuff happens while you snooze, too.

Our down-the-road neighbor had to shoot a home invader a few weeks ago- and the story never made the local paper. Coincidentally, he used a shotgun. Just ask my neighbor about the 'odds' of having your bedroom window smashed in.

Said neighbor owns two Rottweilers as well- they just were not in the room where the rock monster (local term for crackhead) decided to break in. I highly recommend having a dog in the house- with full access inside, too, not shut off from particular areas.

True, the odds of ever having to use a firearm in defense of your home are in general pretty slim. But the question is not the 'odds'- the big issue is the stakes. The stakes being your family, of course. You might not be likely to ever have a fire at home either, but that doesn't mean you should toss your fire extinguisher and smoke alarm.

Slugs may have a role in your home defense plan. Here at our house, slugs are kept in the Sidesaddle of the HD shotgun in case they are needed, and the magazine is loaded with 00. We live well out in a rural area, and police response times are apt to be slow- unless the deputy or Highway Patrolman on duty just happens to be close by. It's 50 yards from the front door to the driveway gate here- too far for buckshot. Yes, slugs are part of 'the plan' here.

There's no need for anyone to get all wrapped around the axle over this stuff- that's not productive. It's always more a question of your skills than your hardware- know your own abilities, know your gun and what you can make it do with the ammo at hand and work to improve those things. Train, practice, and practice some more. Look to the basics of home security first- lock the doors, secure the windows, see about improving your exterior lighting, install an alarm system, get a dog etc. And worry less.

lpl/nc

[shotgunkevin]

I tend to side with Lee Lapin. I keep the blunderbuss loaded with #0 buck, and a Sidesaddle of slugs. It holds 2 Remington Sluggers for precision shots, since that's what the gun prefers accuracy-wise, and 4 Brenneke Rottweils, chosen for the off-chance I may need to shoot into a vehicle. But I'm certain the buckshot would handle whatever may be needed inside the house.

[Cosmoline]

The instructors at the gun range I go to that has classes recommend having mostly buckshot but also having 10-20 slugs around just in case the perp happens to be wearing some kind of light body armor

!! Where do these instructors come from, and what have they been smoking? First of all, slugs are not AP rounds. Quite the opposite. They'll penetrate quite well against game, but they're not designed to get through armor. Secondly--perps with body armor?? It's mall ninja time.

As a general matter, the only slugs I'd want to use for HD are light recoil HP slugs. I've seen them around from time to time. They're soft lead and don't beat you up too bad. A full powered Brenneke hardcast recoils way too much and ultimately will just punch a hole through the torso. It's for large four-legged animals.

[Chupacabra]

I keep two slugs on the side saddle just in case I need to make a precision shot beyond 20 yards. I live in the city, so the probability of needing them is next to nil, but you never know!

[CWL]

Trifler,
I'm not trying to jump down your throat, but I do question your trainer's advice on keeping "10-20 slugs" around. How are you supposed to practically carry them? (so would this mean you'd also have between 30-60 rounds of buck as well?)

In my bedroom shotgun, I keep 5 rounds of buck stoked into my shotgun and in the sleeve I have 3 more buck + 2 rds slug. The rest of my ammo is down the hall in another room because I don't think I'll need more than what's in the tube.

[Harley Quinn]

Punching, kicking, "sluging" is good, but only if it is hand to hand:uhoh:

I like the idea of a shotgun for the ability to sweep the hall, but we are talking something more in the line of #2 or #4.
Slugs :eek: Not in my house.

Slugs are one of the most specialized of the special I think.

;)

[foghornl]

In my testing, I have found that Rem #4Buck gives me the best pattern & density from MY Maverick 88 [Your Mileage Will Vary].

I do keep a butt cuff of PMC Brand slugs, again best performance in MY shotgun. Brennekke KO's are next best.

[Ghost Tracker]

Lee, interesting comment about the "Full Police Blotter" being published. In the little town where I used to live, the City Fathers and the Editor of the local paper held a running dispute on EXACTLY that subject. The City Fathers eventually winning-out. As a result, crimes that happened around the block or across the street were unknown to the residents & kept out of the paper for fear the town would develope a "bad reputation" or property values would go down. So people were trying to raise good teenagers with whores and Crack Houses two doors away. Those kind of priorities make me SICK! I moved to the country, got a German Shepherd & a Boxer/Pitbull mix, and have a few acres of insulation between me & crime. And I think slugs for my shotgun are a GREAT IDEA.

[Orr89rocz]

with a proper choke tube, the buckshot pattern will be a slug up to 25 yards or so. You dont get that much "spread" with buckshot unless its from a straight barrel. Buckshot penetrates well enough to put someone down at longer ranges like 40 yards if you have a full choke.

Will you be shooting farther than 25 yards? if not then open up the choke. improved cylinder is fine.

Slugs are just monsters and over penetrate, even foster type slugs. I shot a well padded box stuffed with old sweatshirts and newspaper at 20 yards or so, with a 20 gauge buckshot load, and most of the pellets only penetrated 3/4 way thru. the little 5/8 ounce foster slug went right on thru easy at the same range. If penetration is a concern, dont use the slugs.

If you have a rifled barrel, then you may beable to use the higher tech sabot rounds. you can get them in all shapes and designs. The hard cast slugs from Dixie have been known to penetrate thru Cape Buffalos....completely thru. Any bad guy with body armor will be in trouble... if it dont penetrate the armor, he's gonna be knocked down for good with that force of that slug. It dont mushroom down like a pancake like foster lead slugs. The all copper sabots too designed to expand shouldnt penetrate as much but still more than fosters. for LONG range shooting they are your best bet, but i'd never consider that for home defense. its just toooo much load with too much recoil.

I'd stick with buckshot, trying different sizes of pellets and different chokes for best patterns.

[Cosmoline]

but I do question your trainer's advice on keeping "10-20 slugs" around. How are you supposed to practically carry them?

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/hot_fuzz_new03.jpg

[revjen45]

We have a rescue mission a few blocks away and some kind of magnet for sex offenders (we keep getting notices of their arrival) 1 block east and north. Odds are that I won't need an 8-shot fusil de boudoir, but I have only had 1 flat in the last 20 years and I haven't quit carrying a spare. Our neighborhood is too densely populated for slugs or a .308 for HD. 1st round is #000 with the rest being #00. I doubt anyone could smoke enough crack to keep on coming after that. Even if he doesn't realize he has been tagged he will fall down. If he decides to leave, fine- that's all I wanted in the 1st place. I sure won't shoot someone who is running away or try to hold them. Slugs are dandy if you don't have close neighbors, but a lot of us have to take collateral harm into consideration.

[rantingredneck]

I guess in my original post I left out the details of how my 870 stays loaded. 5 00 reduced recoil followed by two Brenneke KO slugs (most accurate out of my gun I've found). Chamber empty, firing pin down, safety off. I figure that If on the way off chance I need more than 5 rounds of buckshot then something has seriously gone wrong and the slugs will be handy. The four shot side saddle carries two extra buck and two extra slugs.

In all likelihood I'll never need to fire it in an HD situation. In all likelihood if I have to fire it it will only be once or twice. But just in case.......

It's just like the never used fire extinguisher that stays in my truck. Have never needed it, yet.......

[Trifler]

First of all, slugs are not AP rounds. Quite the opposite. They'll penetrate quite well against game, but they're not designed to get through armor. Secondly--perps with body armor?? It's mall ninja time.

Cosmoline, I specifically specified "light" body armor. We're not talking about full on body armor, but maybe something from Vietnam-era at the army surplus store. While I agree slugs are most definitely not AP rounds, they do penetrate a hell of a lot better than buckshot.

I'm not trying to jump down your throat, but I do question your trainer's advice on keeping "10-20 slugs" around. How are you supposed to practically carry them? (so would this mean you'd also have between 30-60 rounds of buck as well?)

CWL, Actually they suggested 80-100 rounds of buckshot, but they were talking about a drawer in the bedroom. "Keeping" and "carrying" are very different things, but you seem to be assuming they're the same. The instructors do not believe a shotgun is a good weapon to be walking around with. Rather, they believe the purpose of the shotgun is to hole up in your bedroom and shoot any perp who tries to get in. Therefore you're not carrying anything. Besides, this is also your practice ammo and it doesn't make sense to just buy 10 rounds at a time.

[Fred Fuller]

Orr89rocz ,

with a proper choke tube, the buckshot pattern will be a slug up to 25 yards or so.

Dang. Please tell me what that 'proper choke tube' is, so I can get one. I have trouble with a lot of barrels and loads getting patterns smaller than 12" at 25 yards.

You dont get that much "spread" with buckshot unless its from a straight barrel. Buckshot penetrates well enough to put someone down at longer ranges like 40 yards if you have a full choke.

Mmmmmm, could be, might not though. I'd rather not use buckshot at ranges much greater than about 25 yards, given my druthers.

Comments?

lpl/nc

[theken206]

the last two rounds in my 1300 defender ar 3 inch mag slugs. figure if I make it through the rest of the rounds {birdshot and 00 buck} then that should end the threat. If not there is always the m4orgary and a buncha loaded mags.

[Orr89rocz]

As far as choke tubes, any of the long extended tight choke tubes should pass buckshot thru very tight. Patternmaster has some. WadWizzard makes some. maybe not slug tight at 25 yards, but VERY tight patterns. about 8 inch circle or less with majority of the pellets concentrated alot tighter. also depends on the load and size of the pellets. My turkey loads shoot very tight with my super full choke, but larger shot probly dont need that tight but maybe a number 4 buck or something may like that type of choke. Point is, the spread is not very wide

i wouldnt want long rang buckshot shots either but i've heard of a few guys dropping deer at those ranges with buckshot, so on a human, you should still get penetration to cause some damage or slow down the intruder enough to capture him, or do follow up shots

[rantingredneck]

i wouldnt want long rang buckshot shots either but i've heard of a few guys dropping deer at those ranges with buckshot, so on a human, you should still get penetration to cause some damage or slow down the intruder enough to capture him, or do follow up shots

While he's shooting back..........

[Fred Fuller]

maybe not slug tight at 25 yards, but VERY tight patterns.

OK, I thought I might be missing something there. I tried a Patternmaster with buckshot back... well, several years ago. It worked pretty much as advertised but they advised against shooting slugs through it and I didn't want to be limited to just buckshot so I kept experimenting. Sorta tough on the wallet to experiment with $100 choke tubes and premium buckshot loads, so I went looking for the lower-priced spread at that point. Haven't tried any more high-dollar choke tubes since then, but the premium buckshot loads sure make a difference in most guns.

At this point I'm happy with a barrel/choke/load that will keep all the pellets in the load on a sheet of notebook paper at 25 yards, beyond that distance I'm going to slugs anyway.

lpl/nc

[Geno]

Rem 870 Tactical with:

1) Buckshot
2) Slug
3) Buckshot
4) Slug
5) Buckshot
6) Slug
7) Buckshot

Doc2005

[Orr89rocz]

OK, I thought I might be missing something there. I tried a Patternmaster with buckshot back... well, several years ago. It worked pretty much as advertised but they advised against shooting slugs through it and I didn't want to be limited to just buckshot so I kept experimenting. Sorta tough on the wallet to experiment with $100 choke tubes and premium buckshot loads, so I went looking for the lower-priced spread at that point. Haven't tried any more high-dollar choke tubes since then, but the premium buckshot loads sure make a difference in most guns.


yeah thats the price to pay...tight patterns for buckshot use only or slugs. most lead slugs tho will shape down as they come out the choke since lead is soft compared to steel, but i still wouldnt do it.

While he's shooting back..........

Does it matter? Still at that range if you shoot back at him while he's shooting and you hit him....he's not gonna like a buckshot load at that range. its still gonna cause damage and make him look for cover or treat his wounds.

[kgriggs8@yahoo.com]

I have my 870 loaded with 00 but I have 5 slugs in the stock on a ammo carrier. No real reason except that if there was ever a situation that 7 12ga 00 buckshot would take care of, I figuire the only step up is a slug.

Honestly, at home defense ranges, ANY and I mean ANY 12ga load with more than kill a man. Even the lightest birdshot will do horrible damage to a man's chest at across the room ranges.

[Dave McCracken]

There's two slugs on the Sidesaddle for unlikely and unfortunate circumstances.

Main HD 870 is chokeless and loaded with 00.

Backup has a skeet choke in place and more 00.

Frankenstein currently has it's old 21" barrel on with a Mod choke and stoked with 4 buck.

WHy? Because someone gave me a mess of it and it patterns nicely at the max distance of an inhouse shot on that floor with that choke.

[SoCalShooter]

Frankenstein? Would that be something chambered in 3 1/2 inches?


Would any of you guys use a 3 1/2 inch 18inch say like and FNH pump or semi for HD?

[rantingredneck]

Does it matter? Still at that range if you shoot back at him while he's shooting and you hit him....he's not gonna like a buckshot load at that range. its still gonna cause damage and make him look for cover or treat his wounds.

Does to me. Anything beyond 25 yds and the buckshot maybe no longer becomes the immediate fight stopper it has a reputation for being at close contact ranges. Maybe the BG catches a pellet or two from that dispersed pattern and he's still spraying and praying with his gangbanger special.

Too many maybes. I'll keep a slug or two around for those maybes just in case. :)

[Orr89rocz]

i dont think you'd need 3 1/2 inches...too much recoil and not really practical. standard 2 3/4 is fine for most work


well its nice to keep some slugs on you, just make sure your gun can reliably and accurately shoot those slugs at those ranges. 25-40 yards even with a vent rib barrel is a chip shot with a slug. rifle or ghost ring sights would be ideal, but i'm sure your slug load wont be hitting the same spot as the buckshot patterns.... so in that case, what do you do? keep the sights sighted in for slugs? and wing the buckshot loads?

[CWL]

Would any of you guys use a 3 1/2 inch 18inch say like and FNH pump or semi for HD?

Nope. Unlike handgun cartridges where bigger may be better, in shotguns used for SD/HD, control is better. 2 3/4" shells are good enough.

[czbegenner]

Ok guys ive got it remember i have a rem870 super mag,with a 20"barrel,and a 8 shot extention tube.Thanks going to go tomorrow just to get some 00buck,and some slugs.Also got to buy 40ammo for my Glock22 40cal. got to also get some 357 ammo for my Ruger security six Yes i have a trained police
k-9 also who is in the house,And a good alarm system on the house.

[rantingredneck]

well its nice to keep some slugs on you, just make sure your gun can reliably and accurately shoot those slugs at those ranges. 25-40 yards even with a vent rib barrel is a chip shot with a slug. rifle or ghost ring sights would be ideal, but i'm sure your slug load wont be hitting the same spot as the buckshot patterns.... so in that case, what do you do? keep the sights sighted in for slugs? and wing the buckshot loads?

I've got a 20 inch IC rifle sighted smoothbore slug barrel that shoots slugs at 75 yds and buckshot to 25 yds at the same point of impact.

[rantingredneck]

Indeed the 3.5's are overkill for human adversaries.

They do pretty well on whitetails and turkeys though :)

[hmp32]

I just completed a course at Firearms Academy of Seattle and now carry buckshot 00 that I have patterned in my shotgun.

But, one of things I learned is how much 00 buckshot can over penetrate. They show you a demontration video where a box was setup with 3 sheets of plasterboard followed by 3 sheets of 3/4" plywood. Each sheet was seperated aprox 2" to simulate a home.

The 00 buck when through all 3 sheets of platerboard and 2 sheets of 3/4" plywood.

Just food for thought.

[rantingredneck]

Basically any round from any weapon that will penetrate adequately to stop an attacker will penetrate interior walls and whatever or whoever is on the other side if you simply hit the wall and not the attacker.

"Overpenetration" is when the rounds penetrate fully through the attacker then walls/people behind them. This is mostly an issue with heavy, deep penetrating rounds such as slugs or heavy caliber rifle rounds. I wouldn't be surprised if some handgun rounds could do this, but I'm not sure its such a huge risk. This level of penetration with double aught buck is unlikely, but again I wouldn't rule it out.

I guess my point is you have two different issues here.

[Kalashnikov]

I prefer slugs in mine, because I'm not too worried about over penetration and I'm far more accurate with slugs than 00.

[Dave McCracken]

SoCal, Frankenstein is a parts 870 I built a couple decades back. Part of it worked at the MD Pen. It served as a test bed for lots of stuff, has taken game from woodcock to giant Canada geese, and is less than new looking. It's also been a loaner for a half dozen or so new shotugunners.

It had a 3" chamber.

[Chupacabra]

I just completed a course at Firearms Academy of Seattle and now carry buckshot 00 that I have patterned in my shotgun.

But, one of things I learned is how much 00 buckshot can over penetrate. They show you a demontration video where a box was setup with 3 sheets of plasterboard followed by 3 sheets of 3/4" plywood. Each sheet was seperated aprox 2" to simulate a home.

The 00 buck when through all 3 sheets of platerboard and 2 sheets of 3/4" plywood.

Just food for thought.

Hay! I was in this class too! Small world. :D

Marty's demo was indeed very insightful.

What really surprised me was how much the wads and shot cups were penetrating that drywall. :what:

[thrasher64]

I keep the pipe filled with 00 and a few slugs in the side saddle. :)

In general slugs are just fun to shoot :D

[Orr89rocz]

I've got a 20 inch IC rifle sighted smoothbore slug barrel that shoots slugs at 75 yds and buckshot to 25 yds at the same point of impact.

wow thats a nice setup there! sounds like you got it all figured out lol

[DBR]

My setup:
AR15 midlength 16", iron sights (tritium front post), light on forend, chamber empty, 20rd mag loaded with 18rds of Hornady 75gr PSD TAP beside my bed.

Benelli Nova loaded with Brenneke KO slugs in the nearby cabinet.

Rifle first choice for 2 leg defense, crack heads, meth heads or rabid animals. Shotty first choice for bear, mad moose etc in the woods. Yes, we have all of them here from time to time.

Only a roll of the dice where they may show up at any particular time. Police response is usually after incident to collect evidence etc.

I should add: my first defense inside is a 1000 lumen light and a 300 lumen light. If I flash an intruder with either of these all they can see for at least a minute is a blinding white spot. I have to remember to shut my eyes when I flash these lights but it definitely leaves the bad guys at a serious disadvantage. Hopefully during this interval, I can convince them to go somewhere else.

For the critics: no kids even as visitors, no parties, no "impaired friends" ever in the house.

[farscott]

For me, it depends on where we are. If we are at home in Georgia in a subdivision, I use #4 Buck in 2.75" shells. That way I do not need to be concerned about projectiles penetrating outside the home.

When we are in Alabama, we are on 22+ acres, and over penetration is not much of an issue as all of our neighbors are well out of shotgun range. The house structure in Alabama is also more substantial. There I tend to use slugs and #4 Buck in a rifle-sighted shotgun.

All of the HD shotties are in full magazine, empty chamber, safety on condition. They are also all 870s so that there is only one manual of arms.

[Sir Aardvark]

I live where the houses are very close together so slugs would not be a prime choice for my defense plan, although they are available if needed. The over-penetration of a slug makes it too dangerous for my neighbors for me to keep them loaded in the tube.

I currently have 00 buck in the magazine with one empty space and I have slugs on the sidesaddle in case they are needed. With the one empty space I can instantly transition to a slug if necessary.

I saw patterning mentioned earlier in this thread, and my observation has been that I get about 1" of spread for about every yard of distance, hence, a 10 yard target gets a bit over a 10" spread (this is out of a 18" cylinder barrel)

If I shoot out of a 18" improved cylinder using Hornady TAP ammo my patterns stay very tight! One day I will try to post some pictures of my targets with the Hornady ammo.

[Orr89rocz]

Whenever my range opens up again, i'm gonna go out and play around with some buckshot and my slug gun which i use for deer and shoot sabot rounds. Its pretty accurate and i hope to be better with the new stock and some new loads