[Bezoar]

I have a few questions for this.

IS the standard pressure, NON RUGER only loads in 45 colt still usable for deer as they were back in Elmer Keiths day?

And what can the taurus Gaucho in 45 colt do as far as velocity and bullet weight for deer hunting ammo?

[Jim March]

To your last question: the Gaucho should be fed the same loads safe in a Colt SAA 2nd/3rd gen, or Ruger New Vaquero, or USFA, recent-model Uberti/Beretta, etc.

Some examples of compatible loads:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#low45

Cor-Bon and others have similar critters.

Since I don't hunt deer, I can't tell you for sure about point one. A lot of people say a flat-nose lead slug at 1,000ish does work. I would guesstimate that on a CROSS-shot, something that penetrates and expands as well as typical personal defense ammo (against the dreaded two-legged rattlesnake) would work, like the 200gr JHP doing 1,100ish. Figure you'll get 12 - 14" of penetration. On an end-on shot, maybe not optimal?

Speer has an interesting 250gr JHP with a big fat hollowpoint. Should be great for personal defense and might do a bit more punch than the 200s on quadruped targets? But again: this ain't anything I'm certain about and I don't claim expertise on deer huntin' :).

[campbell]

Standard pressure .45 Colt is certainly capable of taking deer. If you look at some of the data from Linebaugh's seminars (http://www.handloads.com/misc/Linebaugh.Penetration.Tests.asp?Order=1), even the sub 1000 fps loads are getting over 20'' of penetration in wet newsprint.

If you handload, Montana Bullet Works (http://www.montanabulletworks.com/) has a 250 grain WFN (Wide Flat Nose) that would work well.

[Baba Louie]

IS the standard pressure, NON RUGER only loads in 45 colt still usable for deer as they were back in Elmer Keiths day?At what range? Obviously, the closer you can get, the better.

[tipoc]

At typical handgun ranges-under 100 yards-a 200 to 250 gr. hard cast lead SWC bullet with a gas check and a good meplat at from 900 to 1000 fps will take deer as well as your smaller hogs and black bear. Such a load is available commercially as Jim March says and is safe for Colt SAA and their clones.

The range here is limited more by the shooter than the gun or load. If all your shots stay within a paper plate at 50 yards than 50 yards is the limit. As in all things shot placement is critical.

At this velocity a heavier bullet that provides deep penetration with minimal expansion is my preference for hunting. A hard cast bullet will break bone.

An expanding round at this velocity may be better for self defense.

Some folks may argue that a higher velocity round will work better, but a dead deer is a dead deer and folks have been killing deer with .45s and .44s with this load for well over 100 years or so.

I've done a bit of hunting with the .45 Colt but don't consider myself an expert by any means. But a well placed shot will take a deer.

tipoc

[Stainz]

Of course, the original bp load of 40gr fff under a 250gr LRN/LRNFP would tickle 1,000 fps from a 7.5" barrel - and they took Bison with it. I would think that a 255gr LSWC even at 800-850 fps would be pretty lethal for thin skinned game (white tail deer - humanoid aggravators, etc).

Stainz

[wheelgunslinger]

I'll second what the others have said only to add that most jhp projectiles require upwards of 1000 fps at the muzzle to function properly and fulfill their expanding potential. So, be cautious of the hp and jhp when using the slower velocity loadings. Companies that make the hp's will give a fps limit on the projectiles, so you won't have to wonder.
If you hunt in close/brushy territory, the Gaucho will be fine as you'll likely be taking shots from bad breath range out to 70 meters.

I carried, hunted with, and plinked with a hot rodded ruger vaquero (old) for years and had very good luck with 45 colt rounds around the 1000 fps area even though the vaq would take more pressure.

[Stainz]

About JHP's... Speer did make a high speed 200gr JHP in .45 Colt - which took 1,100+ fps to reliably open in ballistic gelatin. They developed the #4427 200gr GDJHP in .429 for .44 Special use, with opening to .69" at 800 fps in brisket and gelatin. It's the pre-stressed clad petals - which, at over 1,000 fps will rip away. They developed this as a 250gr GDJHP in .451 for SAAMI spec's .45 Colt revolvers. Again, not for over 1,000 fps. I've been loading them for a while... they do nice jobs on 2L pop bottles full of water - better than the same velocity 240gr LSWC's.

Stainz

[tipoc]

When I lived in Birmingham, Al. from 90-96 I went deer hunting once with a few fellas and their hounds up by Jasper. They shot more dogs than deer which is why I only went out with 'em once. So I wouldn't listen to anything Stainz has to say as he's a suburbanite from Pinson.:)

tipoc

[Sistema1927]

Jim, I am proud of you....

[Matt Almeda]

Hi,
I think the standard velocity ammo should do fine.
I would use a hollow point and pay close attention to shot placement.

Best of luck!

[Bezoar]

thank you guys for the advice. Now I have one different question to ask you all on this poor thing.

SInce the 45 colt does good on deer, is it worth upgrading to a da 41 or 44 magnum?

those buffalo bore stuff claim to be good at bear defense, thats what the 41 and 44 are designed for... so it is a big compromise to keep to a 45?

[wheelgunslinger]

45 colt can be loaded UP or DOwn. It's very versatile.
You can find wimpy cowboy action rounds, or you can use all that case volume to your advantage and either make or buy some real hot rounds for it.
Of course, if you're using a Gaucho, you'll need to be careful how hot the rounds are.
People like the 41 and the 44 though. And, they both have solid reputations. But, that's why they make Fords and Chevys.
I'm a fan of the 45 Colt though for the above reasons, so there's really no choice for me.

[Jim March]

Bezoar: if you shoot this gun well, the range to target is usually fairly short (50 - 75yds esp.) and the deer ain't moose-size :) you'll be fine.

Systema: I have at times reported that people are complaining about the Gaucho. I think other transfer-bar SAs are better buys. But the Gaucho complaints I've seen have NOT involved the guns blowing up. The Gaucho is perfectly safe to fire with loads compatible with the 2nd/3rd gen Colt SAA or clones/near-clones.

If the innards come unglued on you, well, it won't kill you on a hunting trip :).

[campbell]

SInce the 45 colt does good on deer, is it worth upgrading to a da 41 or 44 magnum?

those buffalo bore stuff claim to be good at bear defense, thats what the 41 and 44 are designed for... so it is a big compromise to keep to a 45?

.45 Colt can match .44 mag, and do it with lower pressures...in the right guns. In single actions you could do it in a Blackhawk or a Freedom Arms. In double action you could get a Super Redhawk in .454, or if you like the standard Redhawk you can send one to a good custom shop like Clements (http://www.clementscustomguns.com/)or Bowen (http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/)to have it re-chambered to .45 Colt. Rechambering runs $400-$500.

[Stainz]

Hey, Tipoc... I'm not a suburbanite... and why bring politics into the discussion?? Heck, here in Pinson, we are lucky to have indoor toilets! (TIC)

I won't go hunting in Alabama because they sit up in trees and shoot ANYTHING that moves... dog, child, wife, sister...

Stainz (A displaced Brooklyn boy...)

[Vern Humphrey]

IS the standard pressure, NON RUGER only loads in 45 colt still usable for deer as they were back in Elmer Keiths day?
Have they brought out a new model deer since Elmer's time?

A standard lead-bulllet .45 load will kill a deer as far as you can hit it in the boilerworks. It's your shooting ability, not the cartridge that establishes the limit.

[tipoc]

Have they brought out a new model deer since Elmer's time?

Steroids. There will soon be a congressional investigation. Work crews are assembling the moral high horses.

Stainz (A displaced Brooklyn boy...)

It gets worse, my ex wife was from Brooklyn. (I'm California born and pretty much bred, but, except for the summers, I miss Alabama I had a good time there. God save me, I have a soft spot for Alabamans of all stripes and colors.)


It's popular to be concerned about bear attacks. If you placed "bear attack" in the title of this thread there would be 200 responses. If you said "Defense against Mountain Lions" there would be 100. Say "Feral Dog Attack" and there would be three responses. Though the latter is more common than the first two.

I'm no experts on bear attacks or bears, but any of the loads mentioned above will likely serve as well as another. I say this because if a bear grabs you there will likely be little to no warning. Bears live in the woods. Likely you will hear a cough or a rustle of bushes, you'll turn and 10 feet away will be a bear moving fast at you. So with the arm that is not in it's mouth, you can put the muzzle against it's eye, ear or mouth and shoot for as long as you still have that arm. Likely he or she will die or let you go.

If you see a bear nosing around your camp a lot of noise, pots and pans, usually drive them away. Bears that are used to humans, as in Yosemite, are a troublesome lot as they break into trucks, houses, etc.

If you do see a bear aways off go somewhere else unless you are hunting bear of course.

Did I mention that bears live in the woods. That rough terrain that you and I can't run in without tripping, they run in all day. They can be stealthy.

Of course there are bears and bears. Black ones and Brown. Different temperaments and different conditions under which one can meet them. Those used to humans and those in deep woods. If you shoot a deer and it runs off, dies and a bear claims it before you do. It may want to fight you for it.

If you plan on being someplace they are it's good to study on them some. Look at a couple of books, etc. Think in advance what to do.

I don't worry about them much when I am out and about. But I do try to be prepared.

tipoc

[medic15al]

Stainz, What are your 250grn Gold-Dots opening up to? I'm using these as a duty load in my Mountain Gun. And what is your loading data saying about velocity and how do they work around 900-950 fps?

[VonFatman]

I shot a nice doe three years ago with my Model 25-5 with an 8 3/8" barrel. The shot was from 25 yards. The only thing I'd change in the load below, I'd use a semi-wadcutter vs, the RN-FP bullet to achieve better penetration.

Bob

250gr. Bushwhacker RN-FP
8gr. Unique
Win Primer
Starline Brass
OAL: 1.578
FPS: 835
Gun used to chrono: S&W Model 25-5 w/6" Barrel

[Vern Humphrey]

What are your 250grn Gold-Dots opening up to? I'm using these as a duty load in my Mountain Gun. And what is your loading data saying about velocity and how do they work around 900-950 fps?

For deer hunting, I'd go with cast bullets, Keith-style, semi-wadcutter, or wide flat nose, rather than jacketed bullets. A .452 bullet is already "opened up" as far as it needs to be for hunting.

[ace1001]

Cougars are WAY more stealthy than bears. People attacked very seldom have any warning at all. Bears fear few things, so they aren't usually so stealthy. If I noticed a stealthy bear, I could be pretty sure he was hunting something....probably me!
Big hard lead bullet for big game...Soft lead jacketed HP for small game. Ace

[Stainz]

I used 6.1gr Titegroup with the #4484 Speer 250gr GDJHP for 825 fps from the 4" 625MG - about the same if a 255gr LSWC is substituted. This is an upper end SAAMI spec load. I suggest - as Speer does - that you look at the latest Speer reloading manual. When I printed the data sheet from their site, it had cautions re Colt clone b/c gap and proper case 'neck' tension, as well as some listings for Ruger & T/C 20k-25k psi loads (1,000-1,200 fps). They do caution, "The bullet is designed for lower velocities and may over expand at these velocities.". They further suggest "They are fine for deer sized game, but should not be used or(for) larger or dangerous game where deep penetration is important.". It is listed as 'Personal Protection' in their '07 catalog.

There was a great source of penetration studies on a small site that was gone last December, when this same topic was covered here. The expansion in water & newsprint was impressive.

Stainz

[medic15al]

Thanks!

Vern, I have to have a Hollow point for duty carry except for practce. I plan on loading those 250 cast SWC for general shooting.

[Vern Humphrey]

Hollow points make sense for duty use -- such things as reduced overall penetration and reduced ricochet dangers are the reason (although those may be very slight effects indeed.) But for hunting, a wide flat point is the way to go.

[edrice]

Of course there are bears and bears. Black ones and Brown.


One effective way to tell the difference between a grizzly and a black bear is this - if it's chasing you and you climb up a tree and the bear comes up after you, it's a black bear. If it pushes the tree over, it's a griz.

I once asked a ranger out in the wilderness what he'd do if a bear came after us right now. The ranger said he'd run like hell. I said I thought humans couldn't outrun bears. He said he didn't have to outrun the bear, he'd just have to outrun me.

Ed

[ace1001]

I'll have to take my mother-in-law hunting.

[ace1001]

In my opinion HP are needed for deer or you will go right through them.

[Walkalong]

Nothing kills game any better than Veral Smiths WFN cast bullet design.

In my opinion HP are needed for deer or you will go right through them.
and leave one hell of a blood trail.

[subierex]

Hollow points make sense for duty use -- such things as reduced overall penetration and reduced ricochet dangers are the reason (although those may be very slight effects indeed.) But for hunting, a wide flat point is the way to go.

I was wondering about that. I'm not a hunter but if the need ever arose I wouldn't hesitate to become one:). I have however loaded some 250gr XTP's behind a healthy dose of H110 (ie. Ruger/TC territory) for use in my Hartford 1892 levergun. This XTP (not sure about other calibers/weights) has a very shallow hollow point. I have little doubt however that this load would have a problem taking deer sized game. I only base this on perceived recoil (heavy, even in an 8 lb rifle) and what the load does to a milk jug of water.

Again, no hunting experience, just perception. Sorry for the OT post. :uhoh:

[44and45]

Loaned my Ruger carbine in .44 magnum, lady shot a deer broadside through the shoulder at 50 yards, went right on through out into the woods.

It was a 1/2 jacketed soft point factory load of 255 grains.

Never loan a lady any of your guns, they may do dishes but they don't bother to clean and oil rifles. Got mine back a bit rusty on barrel tip.

Jim

[JustsayMo]

Another vote for wide/flat meplat CAST bullets here. The permanent wound channel exceeds (sometimes by a large margin) the diameter of the bullet. They reliably exit too and leave excellent and short (so far) blood trails.

My (limited) experience with JHP hunting bullets is not good. They (eventually) did the job, expanded beautifully but did NOT exit, even at 1300 fps + (44 mag). The deer all traveled, all were hit well (lungs) and didn't leave much of a blood trail (one hole, tissue clogged). That is NOT the performance I want. It isn't any fun looking for a deer in underbrush as the day fades into night...

[tipoc]

Remember what gun and load we are talking about here. This is a clone of the Colt SAA and we are speaking of a load around 900 fps with a 250 or so gr. bullet.

It for this reason that I believe a hard cast lead bullet with a decent meplat will do the job. Such a load can break bone and will likely produce a through and through shot and a decent blood trail if the deer doesn't fall soon enough.

But the proof is in the pudding. Pick the load you prefer. Shoot a few deer. If the load is troublesome to you and does not drop the animal, go to another load.

tipoc

[MCgunner]

I know on Texas bambies, a hard cast 158 SWC in .357 will do the job nicely, I've done it. Why would my BIG flat nose 255 grain Lee cast bullets at 1000 fps have a problem???? I'd prefer my 300 grainer at 1200, but hey, the .45 Colt is pre-expanded. :D

[Vern Humphrey]

the .45 Colt is pre-expanded
Reminds me of a cop who was bragging on the performance of his 9mm in a shooting, "The bullet expanded to almost .50 caliber.":p

[Mannlicher]

In my experience, a 250 grain, or heavier .45 Colt bullet moving at 900 fps or better, will anchor any deer I have ever seen.

[ace1001]

You need a really soft lead bullet then. My .45 bullets also expanded to almost .50 cal. Ace