Gun ownership in France -- still active


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Oleg Volk
August 22, 2007, 11:52 AM
Got an email from a French member who pointed me to other gun forums. Those who can read French might enjoy http://feulibre.forumactif.com and http://ar15france.com/forums/portal.php

That is why tired old jokes about French weapons are not welcome on THR...we have allies in that country and they should be made welcome.

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fletcher
August 22, 2007, 11:57 AM
Is there a French THR member here who can tell us what the laws/gun culture is like over there?

Mikee Loxxer
August 22, 2007, 12:45 PM
We do have at least one French member. The screen name is barman.

Euclidean
August 22, 2007, 01:04 PM
I'd like to know more about the reality of things in France myself. From what I understand even a single shot .22 caliber rifle would be completely illegal there. I bet that's wrong though.

barman
August 22, 2007, 01:33 PM
Hi,

I don't have much time to write a full long reply... But,

We have way less freedom than you firearms-wise, but we look good compared to most European countries.

The law ( which is completely stupid) classifies firearms in 8 categories: the first 4 concern what is regarded as "military" firearms and self defense firearms. Every smokeless powder handgun is in category 4 or 1st, and a licence delivered by the Prefecture is needed in order to own one.
It's not hard at all, you just need to justify a good reason for you to own that weapon. For most people out there it's for a sporting purpose. So you get into a shooting club, you fill in a few papers and 6 months later you receive a letter allowing the purchase and detention of such a firearm.

You can own up to 7 guns belonging in those first 4 categories.


Then you have the 5th category which represent firearms designed for the Hunt. Shotguns, semi-auto hunting rifles (up to a capacity of 3 rounds), military rifles re-chambered in calibers used for hunting etc...

These guns are free of detention if you have a hunting licence or if you belong to a shooting club. Once you buy the gun, you just bring it to the local police station for it to be registered, and no one can take it away from you anymore after that.
Note that smoothbores don't need to be registered.

6th category are blades of all sorts. Completely free of course.

7th category are competition rifles like high precision .22 rifles.
You need to belong to a shooting club and declare it to the police.

8th category weapons are antique weapons and their reproductions. Black powder revolvers, muskets, rifles.
These are completely free and anyone over 18 can buy them with their ammo.



With all these stupid laws, France still has around 19 millions registered firearms.

alex_trebek
August 22, 2007, 01:38 PM
I didnt realize that French citizens can own those kinds of firearms.

Thanks for the info barman.

Sig245
August 22, 2007, 01:50 PM
Good Post! I was not aware that the French could own any handguns or semi-auto rifles.

geekWithA.45
August 22, 2007, 01:55 PM
Detention?

What's that? Storage of your arms by some entity other than you?

Euclidean
August 22, 2007, 01:57 PM
Well I learned something new today.

Novus Collectus
August 22, 2007, 01:59 PM
Thanks for all that info, I had only an inkling before, but with almost no detail such as this.
What are the laws on carry or transport of black powder revolvers or using one for defense in the home? Can tourists and foreign visitors legally buy and use BP revolvers?
If I ever visit France it would be nice to know I wouldn't have to wait until I got back to go shooting.

Standing Wolf
August 22, 2007, 02:38 PM
Detention?
What's that? Storage of your arms by some entity other than you?

Probably more like the English words "retain" and "retention." Most abstract English words were originally French, but the French of 1066 and 2007 aren't the same, nor are the French roots of English and contemporary English.

Oleg Volk
August 22, 2007, 03:03 PM
My friend emailed me info on French gun laws:
Of course our culture about weapons is a beat strange for american people.
But the history explain these laws.

Weapons were for the power, the king and the nobles.
After that was for the emperor and with the world war since 1945 it's realy strict.
For french politicien you dont need a gun. The cops protect you.
Clear but like you explain every body dont have a body guard 24h/24h with him or her.

I explained with more details than BATMAN the french law in a post on AR15.com forum.
copy below :

Hello friends,

Very complex the French legislation about weapons, YES !!
But I could try describe it.

Our legislation is not so bad. And I will be happy to be sure to stay in actual definition.
BUT ! Any new government could change the law and suddenly destroy it and suppress our rightful to have guns. We are always in danger. English history is the nightmare of all the Europeans shooters.

We could have 12 weapons classified in 1st and 4th categories.
7 with central primer (1st or 4th categories central primer) and 5 with rim fire cartridge ( 4th Category chapter 2) all rim fire weapon semi-automatique rifles or handguns pistols and revolvers (22 LR, 22 magnum, 17 HMR).

I think in a first time we must explain we have 8 categories of weapons.

1st and 4th categories are the main important for us here.

The 1st category

Chapter 1 :
It’s all semi-automatique handgun weapons over 7.65 mm. caliber.

Chapter 2 :
For the rifle and carbines in military caliber (semi-automatique or bolt action carbines and rifles). A military cliber is a caliber used in regular army (5.56 nato, 7.62x51, 7.62x39, .50 BMG, etc..)

The 4th category is a bit more complex.

Chapter 1 :
It’s for all revolver with central primer cartridge (38 spe, 44 mag, 357 mag, 45 LC, etc.) and the semi-automatique handgun in caliber 7.65 or less big like the 6.25mm using central pimer and with barrel under 110 mm lenght.

Chapter 2 :
For all semi-automatique handgun, rifles and carbines and revolver using rimfire ammo (22 LR, etc.).

chapter 5 :
For semi-automatique rifles in civilian caliber. Like the AR15 in .222 remington.

1st and 4th categories weapons could only be buy by a shooter member of a shooting club over 21 years old after 6 months of shooting and with an authorization delivered by authorities. Authorization you have to confirm every 3 years.

2nd and 3rd categories are completely prohibited. It's machinegun, full auto weapons, bazooka, grenade and explosives, war plane, combat ship, tank, nuclear chemical or bacteriologic weapons.

5th and 6th sorry, I dont remember details, but you have edge weapons in one of this category and all the rifle in bolt action or lever action using civilian caliber.
For all bolt action rifles in civilian caliber, as 300 Winch Mag, 338 Lapua magnum, 7.08, 30.30, etc... no problem. If you are shooter or hunter, you could buy all that you want. Same thing for the ammo, you could have 10 000 cartridges, no limit. This is the reason why I prefer My AR15 in hunting caliber 222 rem. I have no limit for my cartridges.

7th category is for "armes de salon" if I try a translation, I said weapons for exposition more than for shooting. For exemple all the copy of muzzle loading weapon (uberti, pietta, etc...) are in this category. Compress air guns are in this category too.

8th category is for weapons of collection. If it's a french weapon, this weapon is in this category if older than 1890. For other country’s weapons it must be older than 1873.
Modern production of this weapons using metallic cartridge (schofield, SAA1873, etc.) are not free. They are in 4th category.
Only original model of metallic cartridge and modern or old model of muzzle loading handgun are 8th category free access like remington 1858, colt dragoon, paterson, etc....

Summit :

For 2nd and 3rd categories. Impossible to possess this weapons models.

For 1st and 4th, you must be sport shooter, over 21 years old and need to have an authorization delivered by authority. Authorization you have to confirm every 3 years.

For all other categories 5, 6, 7 and 8th it's free.
You must just be over 18 years old and be member of a shooting club or hunter. No limit about quantity of weapons you possess and same thing for ammunitions. You are registered on the Gunsmith book of sell and you declare too your police office you have this guns and that’s all.

Just some specific points:
a) Silencers are completely free access.
b) Night vision are only class 1 access (maybe class 2 ??).
c) NVG are classified like weapon in 1st category.
d) Laser are free access but usually max power is 5 mW.
e) Classic 2 shoot 12/70 or 12/76 rifles for hunting are free access for hunter and shooter.
BUT !! If it's a semi-automatic rifle it must be maximum 3 shoot (2+1)
If is tubular magasin is over 2 cartridges capacity it became a 4th category.
Finally, if this rifle is a riot gun (pump action gun) it's completely prohibited. Because in popular imagination it's the weapon of bad guys. Therefore, authority prohibited this weapon completely. Stupid!? Yes !

Last point for explain that all is not so easy:
If your weapon is in a definition free and than only one element is classified in 1st or 4th categories. Your weapons become a 1st or 4th categories weapon.
Example: I want buy a modern henry rifle carbine from Uberti manufacture. It’s a lever action, conception older than 1873. I could think no problem. It’s a 7th category. But in reality it’s a 5th category because it’s a rifle or a carabine and not a handgun. And it could become very fast a 4th category. The nightmare begins!
If I want buy it, I need to choice 44.40 caliber. It’s a caliber unclassified. If I buy it in 45 L.C. it’s a classified ammo (4th category ammo), so The rifle follow the cartridge and become a 4th category rifle. Other point, If the rifle is too short (total length under 81 cm and/or barrel under 45 cm) the weapon is consider like too compact and is classified 4th category. Last point, If you decide to buy the long rifle model, the problem is the number of cartridge in magasine. If over 10 ammo, you become again a 4th category weapon.
Finaly you could only buy a long rifle model in 44.40 Caliber with a maximum capacity of 10 cartridges. Complex!! Really, you think!! HA HA HA HA !
It’s not a law we have in France, it’s a labyrinth.

I hope I was clear. If you have any questions, we are here for you.
I hope this explanation make you understand that we are a small country, with a small shooter corporation (approximately 150 to 200 thousand sport shooters and 2 millions hunters), but we have guns and we love shoot!! YES !

and

I dont know if it's clear but this is my personal collection.
Picture is a bit old (december 2006).

Some guns have changed. But it's a good view for see what we could buy in France.

We have discover next week with my best friend that .22L.R. was restricted in Belgium.
It's a caliber completly free buying here. Like the silencer. It's an accessory we could buy like a bread baguette without any paper. I see, I pay, it's mine.

Realy stange our different laws.

barman
August 22, 2007, 03:18 PM
Detention?
What's that? Storage of your arms by some entity other than you?

Probably more like the English words "retain" and "retention." Most abstract English words were originally French, but the French of 1066 and 2007 aren't the same, nor are the French roots of English and contemporary English.


That's precisely what I meant. "Ownership" of a firearm. Sorry for the confusion.

What are the laws on carry or transport of black powder revolvers or using one for defense in the home? Can tourists and foreign visitors legally buy and use BP revolvers?
If I ever visit France it would be nice to know I wouldn't have to wait until I got back to go shooting.

Regarding transportation, every firearm must be kept away from its ammo in different containers.Tourists and foreign visitors can buy and use BP revolvers, as long as they provide ID and are over 18 years of age.

Regarding the permits allowing you to carry your gun like in the US, we are not granted that right, and that's a crying shame. Exceptions exist, but very few people can get such a special licence.


regarding the use of firearms for self defense, that is not encouraged, and many people ended up facing the courts because they shot an intruder. You may be safe if the intruder was armed as well.

Novus Collectus
August 22, 2007, 03:23 PM
Regarding the permits allowing you to carry your gun like in the US, we are not granted that right, and that's a crying shame. Exceptions exist, but very few people can get such a special licence.Hmm, sounds just like Maryland. :(

Do tourists have to be members of a gun club to purchase or own a BP revolver, or when they say totally free it is almost unregulated after purchase (except for transporting and public possesion of course as you already addressed).
I think you answered already, I am just checking for further clarification.

barman
August 22, 2007, 03:24 PM
We could have 12 weapons classified in 1st and 4th categories.


I think the number has changed since 1995.

Before that date we could even own full auto sub machine guns.

barman
August 22, 2007, 03:27 PM
Do tourists have to be members of a gun club to purchase or own a BP revolver, or when they say totally free it is almost unregulated after purchase (except for transporting and public possesion of course as you already addressed).


It is unregulated and you do not have to be part of a shooting club to purchase BP guns or black powder. However, the shop assistant usually photocopies your ID (that they keep for personal records, this data is not to be communicated to the police).

geekWithA.45
August 22, 2007, 03:33 PM
That reminds me of something someone said:

"The French have been oiling their flower gardens since the (19)40's"

:neener:

Torghn
August 22, 2007, 03:33 PM
What are the self defends laws like? I think the worst gun law Britten ever enacted was when they made it illegal to defend your self with a gun in anyway. I believe that was in the 40s long before most other gun control laws.

Novus Collectus
August 22, 2007, 03:38 PM
What are the self defends laws like? I think the worst gun law Britten ever enacted was when they made it illegal to defend your self with a gun in anyway. I believe that was in the 40s long before most other gun control laws.I am not totally sure, but based on what I have read about a few home defense situations involving a shotgun in England's news news, this does not seem to be the case.
What is the case though as I understand it is that they removed the claim of self defense as a reason to acquire a firearm ownership permit/license, but I think you are still allowed to use guns for defense if you had other reasons to own it.
Maybe someone from England would know what the case is can post about this.

Novus Collectus
August 22, 2007, 03:39 PM
By the way, thanks again for the info barman.

barman
August 22, 2007, 03:58 PM
You're very welcome.

I love the US and I wish our laws would be improved (taking yours as an example).

barman
August 22, 2007, 04:11 PM
If I ever visit France it would be nice to know I wouldn't have to wait until I got back to go shooting.


If you ever vist France and you are in the Paris area, I invite you to come shooting with me. You can even sleep over. My wife is an American from Alaska and she cooks wonderfully. Just PM me if that ever happens.

fletcher
August 22, 2007, 04:19 PM
I love the US and I wish our laws would be improved taking yours as an example.

Seeing as you have unrestricted access to silencers, our laws could stand to take a couple things from yours as well.

tinygnat219
August 22, 2007, 04:22 PM
barman,

Thank you for enlightening us on the French gun culture and laws. It's appreciated on this side of the Atlantic. Just out of curiosity, how does the game of Cowboy Action Shooting fare over there?

arthurcw
August 22, 2007, 04:29 PM
Well I’ll be dipped! But the French are effete surrender monkeys! The Errornet tells me so!

Ok. So consider me schooled.

I dont know if it's clear but this is my personal collection.
Picture is a bit old (december 2006).

HIS IS BIGGER THAN MINE!!! I feel shame.

6th category are blades of all sorts. Completely free of course.

Wait… All types??? Do you get to actually carry these? If so, you just stomped Texas in the back.

I can’t take this, between Human Weapon’s Savate episode and this I’m… I’m… FREEDOM FRIES!!!!

*pant pant* Ok… I can deal with this. I can… You practically won the Revolutionary War for us by keeping the Brits busy. I can deal. I can deal. French Resistance. Forgiven Legion.

I have to go and watch some John Wayne.

BTW: thanks for the schooling. It's nice to know the evil gun menace plagues other countries as well.

barman
August 22, 2007, 04:31 PM
Just out of curiosity, how does the game of Cowboy Action Shooting fare over there?


Hi! It's growing and growing, year after year!

I think that French people in general have a very romanticized idea of the USA. We're very fond of western movies, even if the most popular ones are spaghetti westerns shot by Italians!

I remember that the first book I ever read as a child by was about the exploits and adventures of Davy Crockett. :D

barman
August 22, 2007, 04:37 PM
Wait… All types??? Do you get to actually carry these? If so, you just stomped Texas in the back.

No, let me reassure you, you cannot carry them in the street. You still win. :D
What I meant is that you are free to buy any sword, dagger or knife.
I do carry a foldable laguiole knife with me evrywhere I go though.
I doubt I would get in trouble if a cop would find it on me. He would just tell me that it's illegal and ask me to leave it home next time.

The thing with French laws is that lots of illegal things are "tolerated". There is a huge differenece based upon if you live in a densely populated urban area or in the countryside. We are very keen on being moderate about enforcing laws.

arthurcw
August 22, 2007, 04:40 PM
The thing with French laws is that lots of illegal things are "tolerated". We are very keen on being moderate about enforcing laws.

I think I have to add that to my sig line.

Silvanus
August 22, 2007, 04:59 PM
Like the silencer. It's an accessory we could buy like a bread baguette without any paper

Hehe, I remember the words of my gun dealer /armorer 2 weeks ago:

"Brügger & Thomet? Noooo...I know a small business in France who make suppressors. They only cost half as much and are at least as good...And there's much less hassle to get them, too:D"

I see a lot of French and some Belgian people in another gun shop I frequent. He has A LOT of stuff and is well known even over the border. Have you ever been in a shop in Luxembourg, barman?

DogBonz
August 22, 2007, 05:04 PM
I don’t know if you would know the answer to this, but, how are foreign nationals who own property in France treated?

The Mrs. and I love France and we have traveled there many times and we have often discussed buying a place there when we retire. She speaks prefect French, so much so that some French tourists mistook her for being Parisian when she was giving them directions. Me, unfortunately, not so much… heck I can barely speak English, but my family is from Avignon (historically), so your country does have historical significance for me.

barman
August 22, 2007, 05:07 PM
Hi Silvanus,

Nope, unfortunately I've never been to Luxembourg, ever.


My family is from the Alsace region, which is quite close, at least closer than Versailles is. I'd like to, for sure.

milo z
August 22, 2007, 05:09 PM
To clarify, if you're a member of a shooting club in good standing, the French don't give you any particular hassle about buying an AR/AK-style semi-auto compared to a handgun or non-military-style rifle?

barman
August 22, 2007, 05:13 PM
don’t know if you would know the answer to this, but, how are foreign nationals who own property in France treated?

Hello DogBonz,

As long as you can get a long term visa, residency permit, nothing prevents you from getting a hunting licence or suscribing to a shooting club.
I don't think you would have any problem owning a few rifles. I know foreigners who do.

barman
August 22, 2007, 05:17 PM
To clarify, if you're a member of a shooting club in good standing, the French don't give you any particular hassle about buying an AR/AK-style semi-auto compared to a handgun or non-military-style rifle?


No, if you're a member of a shooting club and you don't have any bad record, it's just a matter of being able to wait a little bit (6 months up to a year) before you get the authorization.

kungfuhippie
August 22, 2007, 05:38 PM
So France looks better than California with regards to gun ownership in several aspects. I think for my next vacation I should give speaking French a try and look for a nice French girl.

another okie
August 22, 2007, 05:53 PM
Luxembourg has the worst gun laws in Europe, a 100% complete ban. I've been in gun shops in France. I guess it's good to have a thread like this every so often and remind folks that our stereotypes are not always true.

Don't forget that Eric Grauffel, a Frenchman, has been IPSC world champion. http://www.ericgrauffel.com/

Euclidean
August 22, 2007, 06:00 PM
Luxembourg has the worst gun laws in Europe, a 100% complete ban.

That's how I understood things to be in France. Boy I'm glad I was wrong.

My overall impression of Europe is that the only things most people can get are certain kinds of shotguns and maybe the odd manual action rifle here and there with about a million different permits and restrictions on capacity, chambering, etc. The fact someone can own a handgun in France is encouraging.

I guess my good karma's coming back to me. I've explained how it is in the states to people from Europe, Canada, Korea etc. in the past and the only impression I've ever gotten was a near total ban was in place in each of those parts of the world. But then again most people in the US think guns are completely illegal too.

arthurcw
August 22, 2007, 06:15 PM
But then again most people in the US think guns are completely illegal too.

Bingo. How many non gunnies believe that machine guns and "silencers" are totally illegal.

I wonder if there is a place to find compiled gun laws by country (or at least western countries). Kind of like PDO had it state by state.

Black Adder LXX
August 22, 2007, 06:27 PM
Well I sure learned a lot on this thread...

That is why tired old jokes about French weapons are not welcome on THR...we have allies in that country and they should be made welcome.

If it wasn't for french weapons, we'd still be a British colony, and drive on the wrong side of the road...

Novus Collectus
August 22, 2007, 06:32 PM
If you ever vist France and you are in the Paris area, I invite you to come shooting with me. You can even sleep over. My wife is an American from Alaska and she cooks wonderfully. Just PM me if that ever happens. Thank you, will do. :)

Silvanus
August 22, 2007, 06:39 PM
Luxembourg has the worst gun laws in Europe, a 100% complete ban.

What the hell??!!:what:

How did you figure that? Wow that's a real surprise to me since I always thought we had some of the best...Besides that loaded Glock 17 next to me disagrees with you. (as well as the S&Ws, Sig and Browning in the safe)

I can buy ANY gun you can imagine (if it's available from the companies, so for example no G36s from stupid H&K). Any semi-auto rifle or handgun can be had and shot at every range in this country. The only restrictions are that fully automatic guns can only be had as collectory items. That means you can have the gun and even ammo, but you can't take them to the range. Suppressors and stuff like that is OK too. All in all the laws are pretty relaxed compared to a lot of other coutries.

Euclidean
August 22, 2007, 06:42 PM
Awesome. Simply awesome.

Silvanus
August 22, 2007, 06:43 PM
Hmm...that sounded a little harsh perhaps(sry), but I was really surprised...And I would seriously like to know where you got that (wrong) information:confused:

kungfuhippie
August 22, 2007, 06:48 PM
The only restrictions are that fully automatic guns can only be had as collectory items. That means you can have the gun and even ammo, but you can't take them to the range.

Then just have it for the eventual zombie attack.

That's really awesome. Why do we American bash Europe in general when there are refuges of freedom there? I mean Luxembourg seems to be freer than Switzerland.

Euclidean
August 22, 2007, 06:58 PM
Hmm...that sounded a little harsh perhaps(sry), but I was really surprised...And I would seriously like to know where you got that (wrong) information

That's really awesome. Why do we American bash Europe in general when there are refuges of freedom there? I mean Luxembourg seems to be freer than Switzerland.

Well, I'd first like to point out that American gun laws are complicated enough, it's not really reasonable to expect anyone from any country (including yours) to keep track of another nation's laws under normal circumstances.

Second, thanks to the internet, I "talk" to people from other parts of the world often, and most of the information and impressions I've gotten from them would seem to indicate much stricter laws are in place than is the case.

So it's probably just pure ignorance both on the case of the foreigner and the resident of any nation in question. Add into the mix that there are not expedient sources of the laws of foreign nations in American English, or at least not ones I'm aware of, and you get miscommunication.

Also, the reality of the situation is often different from what's on the books in all parts of the world including mine.

Silvanus
August 22, 2007, 06:59 PM
Then just have it for the eventual zombie attack.

I'm planning on doing that (well not exactly the zombie part, but you never know, right? ;)).

One semi AK for shooting (~500€) and perhaps later a "real" one for "just in case" (also ~500€) or to attach a suppressor and have secret fun :D (of course that's a joke, I would neeeever do that)

MD_Willington
August 22, 2007, 07:00 PM
barman, if I remember correctly or incorrectly, you do not have the same barrel length laws as the US does, so you can buy a short barrel rifle like a semi-automatic Krinkov, is that correct?

I ask because I have seen a post from a man in Corsica that had the short version of the Saiga krinkov, or are the laws in Corsica different to mainland France.

For what it is worth, your laws are similar to the laws in Canada.

Salut mon ami!

barman
August 22, 2007, 07:20 PM
Salut MD Willington,

For what I know, rifles allowed in France are limited to a barrel length of 45 cm minimum.

But as you said, Corsica might have different laws than mainland France.

MD_Willington
August 22, 2007, 08:21 PM
So the barrel has to be 18 inches or longer (45cm ~ 17.7 inches) in France?

merci

CZ.22
August 22, 2007, 08:52 PM
I had always thought that Luxembourg had really strict gun laws- maybe that's just from that statue in front of the UN.
Do you have concealed carry? Can you use guns for self defense?
As for France, what is Nick Sarkozy's (sp?) position on gun control?

Deanimator
August 22, 2007, 09:03 PM
I understand that many former British handgun owners now shoot in France.

Stevie-Ray
August 22, 2007, 10:44 PM
I love the US and I wish our laws would be improved (taking yours as an example).Do your laws show any sign of improving, or possibly getting even worse? I guess what I am asking is whether the pro-gun people, especially in power, outnumber the extremists looking to erode your freedoms even further? Seems as though ours swing back and forth with every knee-jerk reaction to a current tragedy.

2RCO
August 22, 2007, 10:52 PM
I sell several grips to France and I had always figured they were used on demils and airsoft and the like. So I guess they do get used on the real deal. Hmm the more I learn.

Gunnerpalace
August 22, 2007, 10:53 PM
To answer your question gun laws are holding steady here and getting better, and there are TONS more pro-gun than anti-gun people here however the antis have one major advantage they have the fair share of the media under their control. But things are good for now hopefully a ruling in our courts will make thing a lot better.

frenchbushmaster
August 23, 2007, 02:41 AM
Hello Lady's and gentlemen.

I'm the french guy who contact Oleg.

I will try to help my European friend for explain our laws.

a) Self Defense :
Not possible in France. Before 1995 you could buy a gun of 4th category (revolver 357mag for exemple) for defense of your house. But impossible to carry this gun in the street.
The definition of self defense is : "You answer must be proportionally to the attack".
I explain.. Your could kill you agressor if you are dead. AH AH AH !!

b) Cowboy action shooting :
I confirm the BARMAN Comment.
It's a romantic vision of great american history and western movie.
Many peoples love it. It's a good competition.
See here my pictures of the last "WESTERN SHOW" in Versailles shooting range.
http://feulibre.forumactif.com/Les-armes-c2/Les-armes-a-poudre-noire-et-armes-Western-f27/Western-day-a-Versailles-t2910.htm

c) Blade law :
We could buy any blades, but it's completly forbiden to carry it in the street.
Like a gun. Exactly the same rule.
When you are a shooter, you could carry your gun from your house to the shooting range where you usualy shoot or for a competition, to an other shooting range. But your weapons must be desactivated in a case during the travel.

d) The law in france before 1995 :
Many thinks have change (and change every month).
But 15 years ago approximatly we have lost many free gun access.
Before this date, the semi-automatic rifle in civilian caliber like AR15, beretta70, Steyr AUG, Mini14 in 222rem are completly free access. You give you National identity card to the gunsmith and you live the shop with your rifle. Know it's a classified gun and you need 6 months of investigation before to have your authorisation to buy it (like for all 1st and 4th category weapons).
Before this date we could buy full automatic weapon. Classified 1st category chapter 2. The news 1st category chapter 2 is only for the semi-automatic rifle. The full automatique rifle are classified 1st category chapter 4. Completly forbidden for civilian shooters.

e) Luxembourg law :
I'm french but I visit Switezerland and Belgium some time. And I will visit Luxembourg next week for the first time.
I promise you it's with the Switzerland law probably the best pleasant law in Europe for gun.
The badest law where praticaly every guns are Ban, it's the English NIGHTMARE. It's the badest law of all Ouest Europe.

f) Eric Grauffel :
Yes, Eric is the greatest french competitor for IPSC.
Since it's a gouvernment pro gun no problem but during the socialist period IPSC competition was threaten and Eric was international competitor but not recognized like a French competitor because the French shooting federation dont support him and was afraid buy the sport ministry who dont think this shooting competiton was politicaly correct. To close of a combat training (bull****, IPSC is not efficient for combat training. Not the same rules).
I imagine if we try to have IDPA competition here ;-)
Actualy some friend try to built NTTC school, but many police officers and military say it's not good. They are afraid that civilian could have a good training level for combat shooting. Why ?? Paranoïac classic reaction about civilian with gun.
I dont practice IPSC shooting competition, but FUN SHOOTING COMPETITION. Same think, but on a fixed post with not too much displacment with the gun.
Two little video do by of my brother :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5w1Xr__geg
(The guy with the red tee-shirt is mister OBRIO on of the Eric Grauffel time friend)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKyzOI7cac8

Well, I let you, I will do a 30 shoots drill with my brother today.
Just for fun a little video we do next winter. Just for fun.
http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/images%20divers/?action=view&current=sceance_ar15_fun_011106_mini_musiqu.flv

See you and take care, Mick.

kimsonvu
August 23, 2007, 02:50 AM
I just receive 1 order of Dragon grips engrave from France - Metropolitan(FX code) for his 1911A1 colt .

I really don't know much more about France.Do they ban firearm?

frenchbushmaster
August 23, 2007, 02:58 AM
Hi,

No limit for the barrel lenght for classified gun.
My AR15 Commando is 11.5"

If you want buy a unclassified gun, you have a limit.
The barrel must not be smaller than 45cm and the global lenght of the gun must not be less than 81 cm.

No, no, we donc BAN GUN ;)
We have many guns ;-)
Look these picture of my last little 200m shooting training with some friends.
http://ar15france.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3756

And here some pictures of French shooting range.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=49&t=260535

See you, Mick.

Jimmy Newman
August 23, 2007, 03:01 AM
This is an interested thread, for sure!

I was in France with my parents a number of years ago, and I was young enough that I was getting a little overloaded with all the museums we were visiting.

We just happened to end up visiting Chambord when the annual hunting and fishing show was going on. It was awesome :). Best hunting and fishing show I have ever seen, by far.

Ian
August 23, 2007, 03:15 AM
The thing with French laws is that lots of illegal things are "tolerated". There is a huge differenece based upon if you live in a densely populated urban area or in the countryside. We are very keen on being moderate about enforcing laws.

An interesting story on the different perspectives between the US and France...I had an American friend and a French friend driving together back from the range in the US, with a bunch of covered guns in the back seat and a couple machine guns in the trunk. The Frenchman was driving, and had left his passport and ID at home. They got pulled over by a cop...the Frenchman was horrified that the American would actually tell the cop about the guns when asked (they were covered up and not apparent) - especially the machine guns in the trunk (all legal). The American was horrified when he discovered the Frenchman didn't have papers on him.

It's interesting (to me, anyway), because the American was concerned with the letter of the law, and the Frenchman had a more common-sense approach to the law.

abdrdude
August 23, 2007, 04:46 AM
Barman, Thanks for the update to us regarding the laws in your country. Most of us only know what we are accuratly informed of, and information such as this helps each of us see the bigger picture.

barman
August 23, 2007, 05:21 AM
you're welcome, it's a pleasure. Many thanks to FrenchBushMaster who definitely knows our laws better than me.

For those who understand French, here is a great Black Powder forum:

http://poudrenoire.forumactif.com/

Silvanus
August 23, 2007, 05:47 AM
Do you have concealed carry? Can you use guns for self defense?


Self defense at home is OK I think. But you can't shoot an unarmed person. But if the intruder is armed, I think you can use a gun.

Concealed carry is only for very few people. I know a psychologist who works with prisoners for example and who was threatened by one. They told him he could require a permit to carry concealed. Same for police officers in similar situations I guess. But generally it's almost impossible to get a permit.

MD_Willington
August 23, 2007, 09:41 AM
Wow, Luxembourg concealed carry laws sound like Canadian laws, only special/certain people get them, or your average owner has to bend over backwards, pat there head and rub their tummy while jumping through flaming hoops at the circus to get a license called an ATC. I may have embellished a bit about the flaming hoops!

tinygnat219
August 23, 2007, 10:50 AM
barman,

Thank you for the update on Cowboy Action Shooting on your side of the Atlantic.

fletcher
August 23, 2007, 12:12 PM
This thread has been a very interesting read, I've learned quite a bit about French and European gun laws.

Mk VII
August 23, 2007, 01:20 PM
as so often in France, the statute and the actual practice can differ widely depending on your relations with the local law enforcement agency.

Silvanus
August 23, 2007, 02:17 PM
MD_Willington

Yes, that sounds familiar ;)

But hopefully I can go to the police school next year. I never thought about that, but perhaps I will get a chance to obtain a permit when I'm in LE. Who knows?

Horsesense
August 23, 2007, 02:24 PM
Do you think there is a connection between the 1995 change in gun laws and French immigration trends?

In the US, it seems that politicians fear citizens, who are different than themselves, and enact laws because of it.

JLelli
August 23, 2007, 03:10 PM
What the hell??!!

How did you figure that? Wow that's a real surprise to me since I always thought we had some of the best...Besides that loaded Glock 17 next to me disagrees with you. (as well as the S&Ws, Sig and Browning in the safe)

I can buy ANY gun you can imagine (if it's available from the companies, so for example no G36s from stupid H&K). Any semi-auto rifle or handgun can be had and shot at every range in this country. The only restrictions are that fully automatic guns can only be had as collectory items. That means you can have the gun and even ammo, but you can't take them to the range. Suppressors and stuff like that is OK too. All in all the laws are pretty relaxed compared to a lot of other coutries.

Maybe you should drop a line to the National Rifle Association. They have published the myth (as it turns out) that there is a total gun ban in Luxembourg:

Equally erroneous is the impression that Europe is uniformly anti-gun. Laws vary. Luxembourg totally bans all guns from civilian ownership. France, Belgium and Germany allow citizens to own handguns but these countries are more restrictive than most U.S. states. In Austria, every law-abiding citizen has a legal right to buy handguns, and roughly ten per cent of Austrians have done so (compared to 16 per cent of U.S. citizens).

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?ID=72

By the way, this is the first hit on 'luxembourg gun laws' when I search on Google. That could be where the myth is generated.

damien
August 23, 2007, 04:00 PM
Check out this french IPSC competitor chick

http://laetitiadaguenel.free.fr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAC-ThxXS9s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdb030z5rbQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ92zYX827E

fast eddie
August 23, 2007, 04:28 PM
With all these stupid laws, France still has around 19 millions registered firearms.That many? Sacrebleu!

Vive la France!:D

Silvanus
August 23, 2007, 05:37 PM
Wow, now I wonder where THEY got that (still wrong) information...

Andrewsky
August 23, 2007, 05:56 PM
You guys might find this interesting. Panama has the loosest gun laws I've seen for a developed country other than the US.

""If you have permission to buy the firearm you can carry it concealed on your person, in your pocket or purse, in your vehicle etc. Certain buildings have a firearms prohibited sign on the entrance and of course you should obey these signs. Banks, airports, government offices have such signs. So there are no concealed carry permits in Panama, if you can buy the gun lawfully you can carry it concealed. Exposed carry of the firearm is not allowed and will cause police attention fast.

Types of Guns in Panama – You can buy handguns (semi-auto handguns, revolvers), rifles and shotguns. You can have hi-capacity magazines in any type gun, no restrictions. You can not have full-auto firearms. You can have semi-auto rifles and handguns. You can not have a silencer. Guns are costly in Panama, figure 50% higher than North America on name brand guns like Ruger, Sig Sauer, Smith, Remington, etc. Gun dealers generally do not have a large inventory in Panama. Expect to see 10 or so rifles and shotguns in stock and perhaps as many handguns. Many of the guns will be cheapies from Argentina and Russia. The dealer can order you what you want but expect a wait of 2-3 months or more then add in the time for the permission to buy the gun to go through.

The Gun Buying Process in Panama – First you go to the gun store and prove to them you are eligible to buy a firearm by way of Residency, Pensionado, etc. Next you select a gun and pay for it. Then the gun store will have you go to the bathroom and pee in a cup which is a medical sample cup. Then you will be given a form to take to a government health office for a finger prick blood test – DNA sample. Plan on a wait to get your blood sample. Next the gun store sends the paperwork through the police system. It goes to three departments and can take 6-10 weeks to clear. When it is complete you get the gun. More than one gun can be bought at the same time. You also get a gun permit which is a folded piece of green cardboard paper which a photo on it. You can enter up to 10 guns on the permit. Panama does not limit amount of guns so if you earn more than 10 guns an additional listing page will be provided for the permit. The police will take ballistic sample of a fired round.

Sawed off Shotguns and Short Barreled Rifles – These are legal in Panama. They are not sold that way but can be modified by a gunsmith to suit. Pistol grip shotguns with no shoulder stock are generally available in the stores with an 18” barrel and a large magazine underneath. Double barrel shotguns are available and of course can easily be shortened by a gunsmith; you could even add a choke so the short barrel groups tight. Short barrel rifles can also be created by a gunsmith but the purpose of this is hard to determine other than slightly reducing the barrel length on an assault rifle but in any event it is lawful. I guess some want to do it because they could not do so in their home country?

Ammo- No armor piercing ammo allowed. Hollow points, high speed light weight defensive rounds etc. are fine.

Firearm Importation into Panama – This is possible. Generally this appeals to Americans since they seem to have lots of firearms. You go to a gun store and get their assistance. You apply for an importation permit which is something like the same process for a purchase if you do not already have a permit. It is easier if you have a permit. Then you get permission to import the weapon into Panama. There can be problems and restrictions shipping a firearm from other countries like the USA which require the services of a licensed gun dealer able to export. You would Fed Ex the unloaded gun with paperwork from USA and Panama to Panama. Then you would hope for the best and that things sort themselves out before the gun rusts out in some non-climate controlled government warehouse somewhere. You will be required to pay an import duty which can be steep. A customs broker would be best source for costs on this, we do not know but a guess would be 50% of the value – is it new or used, etc. We are a law firm not a customs broker. If you have a question about bringing in some rare special gun like a Browning Safari Grade Rifle or a Heckler and Koch squeeze cocker handgun we really have no idea what the taxes will be. First become eligible for buy a gun and then retain a customs broker. Suggestion: Skip the importation process, buy a gun in Panama.

Ranges – There are an ample amount of indoor handgun ranges and outdoor ranges. No worries.

Knives – You can carry concealed knives. Do not carry an exposed sheath knife in the city – asking for trouble from the police. There are no blade size restrictions. You can carry butterfly knives, automatic knifes, gravity or flick knives, out the front knives, double edge folders (carry Band-Aids) whatever kind of knife. Most of the available knives are the cheapos, sometime you see a medium grade product like a Smith and Wesson knife. Bring your good knives with you, not in carry on. Do not take knives into government buildings, airports, banks and other restricted places. It will come up on the metal detector.

Pepper Spray – Readily available small canisters. No permits needed. Decent quality, not gourmet pepper spray but effective enough.

Swords, Tonfas, Batons, Billy Clubs, Staffs, Nunchukas – All readily available and not restricted.

Panama is a very safe country and you probably will never need to use your firearm to defend yourself.

http://http://www.panamalaw.org/panama_gun_laws.html

another okie
August 23, 2007, 11:11 PM
Well, I apologize to our friends in Luxembourg. I have been there, and it's a nice place. I was wrong about a gun ban. But it's not just the NRA with bad info - I found several anti-gun sites with the same idea, and frankly I originally was told there was a ban on private ownership by a German. I guess I should have checked further. I even found four (count 'em, four) shooting clubs listed for Luxembourg city - you can see them here ("tir aux armes" listings at http://www.vdl.lu/Services+communaux/Sports/Clubs+sportifs-highlight-armes.html)

The law of 1983 apparently just requires "permission" from the Minister of Justice to own most types of guns.

http://www.legilux.public.lu/leg/textescoordonnes/compilation/recueil_lois_speciales/ARMES.pdf

The section on permissions is section C, paragraph 16 on.

jkingrph
August 24, 2007, 09:37 AM
Barman; It is interesting to read your views on laws there vs here.

Two of my favorite guns are a 28ga Darne and an old 16ga Charlin. There are not to many of those over here, esp the Charlins.

Jeff

Roadrunner NV
August 24, 2007, 10:57 AM
Hello All, salut Barman et FrenchBushMaster,

I also remember in France a certain limit buying ammo per year, I don't know if that still actual.

Pistolet a grenailles "sorry I don't remember the word in English" are now classified in category and must be registred to the Police station.

I am glad to live in US to enjoy the freedom, to support the NRA, own, reload, and shoot at the range club all my firearms.

Coming from a country were guns restrictions are most of the time stupid, I would make sure to do my best and support the 2nd ammendement of US for our Americans friends.

Be all safe,

Cannonball888
August 24, 2007, 11:23 AM
That is why tired old jokes about French weapons are not welcome on THR...we have allies in that country and they should be made welcome.

I realize this is your forum, Oleg, but let's not be hypocritical.

You sell this image on LibertyOutlet.com (http://www.libertyoutlet.com/store/itemdetail.html?detailid=33).

http://images.libertyoutlet.com/prod/france-bumpersticker.gif

Sorry, but sometimes the moderators need reminding too.

fletcher
August 24, 2007, 11:40 AM
Cannonball, even if it is there, that doesn't necessarily mean comments like that have a place in this forum.

Nekron
August 24, 2007, 11:47 AM
Pistolet a grenailles "sorry I don't remember the word in English"

Do you mean a shotgun?

Silvanus
August 24, 2007, 02:27 PM
The law of 1983 apparently just requires "permission" from the Minister of Justice to own most types of guns.

Yes, that's all. Your guns are registered when you buy them either in a shop or from a private person. They also figure on your "permit". And of course they do a background check. That's all that is required and I have no problem with that.

frenchbushmaster
August 24, 2007, 03:25 PM
I think like in all the europeen country actualy the laws about guns are more and more strict.
But no complet ban exist.

The problem is that many governments are "afraid" by the guns in civilian hands.:(

The law change in 1995 in France but not for any question about immigration. Officialy. I think many people work for supress weapons for civilian peoples.
It's not realy a proble for shooter or hunter. But any body cant buy a gun in France. It's not so stupid because without any knoledge this person is dangerous for her and for the people around her.
An other possibility but it's not an official point of view is that the "extrem right" politic group was growing in 90's years and like they where xenophobe and agressive peoples. Perhaps the law modification will be apply a part for not lets these peoples a too easy access to weapons. But it's only a hypothesys.

For the home defense it's clear you could us your gun. But like it's a SPORT GUN. You have not used it in the respect of the law. You will have many problem. The solution we have here it's no lethal weapons (GC54, GC27, SAFEGOM, FLASHBALL, etc.)
Before 1995 you could have a gun for defense but since this date the authoryti dont give this possibility and people with this authorisation you must renew every 5 years. When you come for renew it. It's supress and you must sell your gun. Clear ! No gun for defense in France. We are a safe country. CALL 911 (17 for us Police secours).

I have see Laetitia Daguenel during the last Fun shoot and IPSC shoot in VERTUS (north of France middle of Champagne county). Nice girl and realy good shooter.

I think for NRA our laws are not good because it's not free access to the weapon. We need to be shooter, we need to be in a shooting club, we need to wait a investigation, etc...
But we could have weapons. And for us it's realy the best final point.
The most important is this.

NRA ahve probably speak a lot about the British law.
Realy completly crazy.

About the limit for the volum of cartridge I confirm.
For a 1st or 4th categorie caliber (ex : 223 rem, 7.62x39, 9mm, 45ACP, 357mag, etc...) you could buy only 1000 cartridge every year. But you could reload without any limit.
This is the reason why I prefer my AR15 in 222 rem caliber. It's a hunting caliber so no limit I could buy 10 000 cartridges if I want :p

And some caliber are not classified like the 44 rem mag. It's classified like a hunting caliber for carbines.:D

The "pistolet a grenailles" was the copy of real gun using small shootgun cartridge, it's exact. They are used for defense. Every body could buy it in a gunsmith shop before 1995. But many guy used it for attack people and thay are forbidden today. Classified like a 357mag in 4th category gun.

The law is complexe. I have an exemple.
In the past I have a MOSSBERG COMBO SHOOTGUN. Now it's forbidden so the police confiscate my rifle 5 years ago.
But last year I found on the french market the NORINCO 1887. 12/70 caliber. 5 shoots capacity. I have buy it. It's an old system lever action, no problem. I could have this gun without any other request that my national shooter card. Easy !

I want just precise somethink about the laws I discribe. When I say the classification of your gun could change and be up clasified if you have to much capacity or a claiber classified. I have see 357mag lever action ROSSY carbin free sell in my usual gunsmith shop. so the law is not so clear !?
But it's clear you could not buy the cartridge! ?:scrutiny:
Clearly classified cartridge.:banghead:

One of my link (AR15France) dont work.
Used this : http://feulibre.forumactif.com/Divers-c3/Le-bistrot-f16/Pas-de-voyage-mais-des-sorties-entre-amis-t4024.htm

Last point. Someone speak of magazine limit capacity. No limit for use for Classified guns. I have 20 / 30 and 90 round magazines for my AR15.

For the not classified gun the limit is 10 shoots.
But for exemple. If I buy a 700 remington. And I make modification for used M14 magazines. I could buy a 20 rounds magasine it's free. No problem. But I must not used it. No no !! It's not good. I'm a bad guy if I do this :evil:

See you lady's and gentlemen.
And sorr yfor my english. Realy rusty!

Isildur
August 24, 2007, 04:45 PM
I would just like to mention that "the European countries" is as false as talking about "the USA" in terms of gun-control.
Some countries like Belgium(I think), Luxembourg and Switzerland - have kinda liberal gun-control whereas other countries like GB, Germany and also France(I think) have pretty tight restrictions or complete bans on weapons.

ps:If you've got any questions concerning Germany feel free to ask.

M.E.Eldridge
August 24, 2007, 04:54 PM
What's the gun industry like in France? Are there many gun companies over there?

Zoogster
August 24, 2007, 05:57 PM
They have the privelidge of applying for permission from the government to possess or use arms for specific purposes.

We have the "right" to keep and bear them.

Just because they don't have the right does not mean some are not allowed the privelidge.

People in the USA are just starting to get the two confused as more and more laws are enacted that make it a privelidge requiring licensing/permission.

That is why you see the "wow I had no idea they could have firearms" responses. They wrongly assume not having a right that "shall not be infringed" means some can not still have a privilidge that can be infringed at any time.

There is a big difference. The right in America was created by the founding fathers to resist tyranny and fight against the government and its agents if necessary, just like they had against thier previous government (England). That is unique in the world, and is what the 2nd protects.
The privelidge in other places, like France, is for sports, hunting, and in some places defense against criminals. They have no permanent unquestionable right as the founding fathers intended for America, merely a temporary privelidge granted by thier rulers on an individual basis.

The "right" is being removed in America, the "privelidge" however is being added, and then restricted at a slow pace, and it is causing confusion as to the difference.

The layman might see no difference in the immediate result, both possess arms.
One of the most important differences however is the "right" fosters a mentality of freedom and liberty which is a birth right they were given through the blood and sacrifice of others which it is thier duty to defend, and the "privelidge" fosters a kind of submissive benevolence to the rulers who show enough trust in them as "good citizens" to give them a weapon.

One encourages appeasement to rulers and others to continue to enjoy granted privelidges, and the other self reliance and sense of personal duty to retain freedom and liberty.

Oleg Volk
August 24, 2007, 06:00 PM
You sell this image on LibertyOutlet.com.

Look carefully, that image is not mine. I am one of three sellers there.

1982fxr
August 24, 2007, 09:43 PM
I want to thank Barman and Frenchbushmaster for their posts; you have taught me things that I didn't know and I always appreciate new knowledge.

I'll have to visit France someday; I'll ride a bicycle, shoot some guns, and then drink some wine. What better day than that!

Roadrunner NV
August 24, 2007, 11:20 PM
Quote:
Pistolet a grenailles "sorry I don't remember the word in English"

Do you mean a shotgun?

Yes, but for pistol, this is why I did not say shotgun

Roadrunner NV
August 24, 2007, 11:49 PM
M.E. Eldridge
What's the gun industry like in France? Are there many gun companies over there?

Manufacture d'armes de Saint-Étienne (MAS) Which made many weapons some popular are:

PA MAC 50/PA 35 (SA Pistol)
MAS 36 (bolt action)
Mas 39/56 (semi-auto)
AA52 (Full Auto)
FAMAS (Assault)

Manufacture d' Armes De Tulle

MAT 49 (Machine gun)

Perhaps more or under licence made by others

kurtmax
August 25, 2007, 12:21 AM
The right in America was created by the founding fathers to resist tyranny and fight against the government

Rights were never created by people. They are pre-existent and apply to all humans. Even in countries that don't recognize the right....

frenchbushmaster
August 26, 2007, 04:05 PM
It's a great pleasure to compare our point of view and our shooter life and "problem".

Like you say. In Europe, the weapon alway been a privelidge of powerfull. The actual situation is the same.
For politician, we dont need it. Why ?
If they say you need a gun, they say there security politic is not efficient. Impossible.
Second point theyre could not risk any possibility people make a seconde french revolution.
We are bad guy's when the situation become to much hard, we cut the head of the big boss :evil: AH AH AH ! LOL !:D

The French law is not funny. I agree.
But like many french shooter I used to say Belgium law is better. But I discover many bad think last week when I visit gunsmith in Belgium.
For exemple you could have machine gun !! Of course when I say you this. It's paradis. BUT !!
BUT !! You need to produce a fiel for describe witch collection you will do (US machine gun second world war for exemple and you will have an euthorisation only for this weapon definition (no MG34, no modern weapons,etc.).
After you have an investigation (usualy .... 5 YEARS !:what:)
After you need a vault room. You need an alarm direct link with the police station. the police could refuse the link. And finaly the best !!
It's forbidden to used the weapon. You have it only for collection !!:(

Of course it's better than "neutralisation". But it's like if you have a Ferrari 250 GTO in the garage and you must not start the engine or like if you are maried with a nice women and you could not love her.:banghead:
Belgium is finaly not the paradis of I my dream.

So I think the best laws are Switzerland and Luxembourg laws.

See you, Mick.

4v50 Gary
August 27, 2007, 01:07 AM
BTW, there's a public range right by Versailles. With your back to the mansion, walk down the steps and turn left. Exit the huge hedge and onto the public road. Turn right. Follow it and you'll hear gunshots. It's a public range. Kudos to those Frenchmen who share our love for the sport.

barman
August 27, 2007, 02:14 AM
thank you Gary. Look at what's happening in late September in Versailles:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/river_of_deceit/paris_western_show_2007.jpg

4v50 Gary
August 28, 2007, 12:22 AM
I'm impressed barman. I wish I could be there just to watch and even write an article about SASS in France. Of course, the American readers would want details about authenticity in clothing, holsters, firearms and I'm no expert on the cowboy era.

barman
August 28, 2007, 03:16 AM
You can have a look at frenchbushmaster's photos from last year's Paris Western Show (although it takes place in Versailles)!
I don't think authenticity in clothing is that great, it's more of a gun show with a focus on weapons from the wild west. But it does look enjoyable!
I wish I didn't work on weekends...

http://feulibre.forumactif.com/Les-a...lles-t2910.htm

30 cal slob
August 28, 2007, 08:17 AM
vive la france. :evil:

man, maybe i'll have something to do there when the missus drags me to paris on the next shopping trip. :p

barman - i understand many UK subjects have moved to france to shoot there.

what are the laws for foreigners to possess and shoot firearms in France?

thanks again ... this thread rocks.

barman
August 28, 2007, 02:29 PM
what are the laws for foreigners to possess and shoot firearms in France?

thanks again ... this thread rocks.

Thank you.

To be honnest, I don't know much about the laws concerning foreigners. But, in the shooting club I attended this year, a few foreigners were members (one guy was Polish, another one was Russian) and used their own firearms that they had pruchased over here, but they had residency permits.

I know that several shooting ranges rent guns to people so that they can use them, and as long as you provide an ID, I'm almost sure there shouldn't be any problem.

Cosmoline
August 28, 2007, 02:48 PM
The thing with French laws is that lots of illegal things are "tolerated". There is a huge differenece based upon if you live in a densely populated urban area or in the countryside. We are very keen on being moderate about enforcing laws.

LOL

"I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"
"Your winnings, sir."

http://entimg.msn.com/i/150/Movies/Actors4/Casablanca_95168_150x200.jpg

frenchbushmaster
October 4, 2007, 02:30 PM
I'm not as ofen here.
Like this post is a beat the french window, I will continue to demonstrate you we are an alive shooter country :D

Like my dear compatriot Barman speak in a post of the "PARIS WESTERN SHOW".
Like I visit this show. I show you some pictures of this event.
img]http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007z9.jpg[/img]

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007u.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007s.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007t.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007l.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007v.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007z5.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007z3.jpg

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http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007d.jpg[/size]

frenchbushmaster
October 4, 2007, 02:31 PM
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007f.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007h.jpg

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http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007k.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007n.jpg

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007o.jpg

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http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/CS2007z.jpg

frenchbushmaster
October 4, 2007, 03:03 PM
I have the pleasure to say you that during this show, I meet a group of people trying to create an European association for promotion of Cowboy Action Shooting. Exactly an European SASS association.

Realy kind and pleasant people.
Realy realy a great pleasure to discused with them.

For finish, I give you very little video link.

British shooter civilian war demonstration :

http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/cowboy%20action%20shooting/?action=view&current=MVI_9694.flv

http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/cowboy%20action%20shooting/?action=view&current=MVI_9693.flv

Cowboy action shooting :
by a british demonstrator
http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/?action=view&current=MVI_9678.flv

and me just try this realy fun shooting.
http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s119/frenchbushmaster/Versailles%202007%20COWBOY%20SHOW/?action=view&current=MVI_9680.flv

See you, Mick.

Tommygunn
October 4, 2007, 03:14 PM
Ahhhhhh! Those Winchesters are making my eyes bug out, Frenchbushmaster! :D:D:D
How did you guys get 'em all over there an' how come there are so few here!:scrutiny:????

I will NEVER say anything bad about the French ever ever ever ever again!!!!!

And I take back everything bad I've said to date!!!:o (Not that it was a lot!):scrutiny:

lbmii
October 4, 2007, 07:55 PM
Oops wrong posts!

Gustav
October 4, 2007, 08:34 PM
Wow!
Allot of those tables would put some of our small gun shows to shame.
Thanks for all the info and pics and in teaching me a few new things.

30 cal slob
October 4, 2007, 09:40 PM
Wow. Nice photos guys.

I understand Mr. Sarkozy is very anti-gun.

What are French gun-owners doing to monitor the new President?

frenchbushmaster
October 5, 2007, 04:54 AM
Hi,

Our french legislation about western weapon is realy fun.
Except modern Scofield, SAA1873 (uberti, pietta, etc.) you need an authorisation for buy them.
The original version are free sell. I could buy a schofield 44 russian simply with my identity card. It's a collection weapon. No problem. Except I could not buy ammo !?:scrutiny:

All the Winchester, Sharp, trap door, black powder rifle are free sell.
Like the cap primer revolver.

In my next post I will send you some picture of the first AR15DAY in France. Organise buy MaxFr a very active member of AR15France.com my primary shooting forum.

See you, Mick.

40SW
October 5, 2007, 08:45 AM
To make sure that I understand this correctly.

1. In France, the use of a handgun in personal protection, even if your life is in jeopardy will most likely lead to criminal prosecution of the victim?

2. Ammunition must be stored away from firearms?

3. Concealed carry is illegal.?

4. Obviously criminals are aware of this, therefore where is the upside? I don't understand.

5. There is obviously room for MUCH improvement.

Novus Collectus
October 5, 2007, 11:02 AM
What are the prices of some of the antiques in France? How much will an origional Shoefield or a Spencer cost in Euros for example?

If I make a trip over there it may be a good idea to bring a few back.

frenchbushmaster
October 5, 2007, 12:34 PM
40SW :
1 - Absolutly, the law is clear. Auto defense definition is your answer must be egal level of attaque level. If your agressor carry an edge weapon and you shoot him. You are a killer.
Of course sometime the judgement are not so ... strict. You are not a killer, you were at at home and the personn shoot was agressive, etc. etc.
It's clear you will have many problem. Like probably loose your legal possess weapons autorisation.

2 - Yes, it's a recommandation. You are not obliged. But the law say it's better to store the weapon and ammo's in two differents rooms or two different safe.

3 - Concealed carry is completly illegal. Carry a gun is illegal. If you have a police patrol controle, you must explain from where you come from and where you go with your weapon (ex : My house => to my usual shooting range, or an other shooting range for a contest). Alway the gun in a bag or a suit-case. NEVER in holster.

4 - Dont try to understand somethink stupid my friend ;)
The only think clear for criminals working here is that it's an easy job, nobody have gun, nobody are dangerous.

5 - Yes, yes. The problem is that we are in a defensive position.
In our constitution, the citizen could have guns. But it's not an important point because we never have a system like your "minute men" or the switzerland constitution (every citizen become a soldier in case of war).
We have no risk if we dont have any big troubl with authorised weapons. At the first massacre perpetrate like incident in some american campus we will loose our gun. It's sure.
We have dodge a law for ban guns after a problem like this in the NANTERRE townhall. it's clear we have not loose our gun this time but the bullet miss the mark but not far.


NOVUS COLLECTUS :
Exemple of price.
For a modern cap primer uberti or pietta (rem 1858, colt1861, colt1851,etc.)you must pay 250 to 450 euros (~ 470 to 610 $)
For an original semi-automatique Colt 1900 38auto = 4500 to 5000 euros (~6100 to 6800 $)
For a S&W n°3 or Schofield 2500 to 4000 euros (~ 3400 to 5400 $)
For all the modern lever action winchester 1866 / 1873 / 1894 and the Henry rifles (uberti, rossi, etc.) = 1000 to 1500 euros (~ 1300 to 2000 $)

If you want a price for a specifique model, say me witch model. I could found it for compare.:)

Have a nice day.

40SW
October 5, 2007, 12:46 PM
Frenchbushmaster:
That was an excellent and detailed explanation, thank you. It was also very eloquent. It is very surprising to me that a nation like France, with such a rich culture of intellectual thinking , would adopt such policies that are not friendly to the citizen and his/her protection. This defies logic, but politicians don't always pursue logic.
I am not at all surprised that the French members of this discussion board are so constructive in their thinking, this is a common demoninator among individuals in all shooting sports globaly, not to sound arrogant, but the best people I have met, are those in the shooting sports. It seems to bring together a higher caliber of people. Thank you again for your contribution, it was refreshing and shattered alot of our stereotypes, it is easy for us to sometimes make fun of the French, just like French make fun of our "cowboy culture", but we have now real evidence that reality is much different. Intelligent people are intelligent people , and they are found everywhere.

Novus Collectus
October 5, 2007, 12:46 PM
Ouch.

Thanks Frenchbushmaster, I think I'll wait until the dollar to Euro exchange rate is the opposite of where it is now.

I bought my steel frame 1858 Pietta a number of years ago for less than $180 and I could by one new today for about $200 to $225 as an example.

frenchbushmaster
October 5, 2007, 04:27 PM
40SW :
It's a pleasure to explain witch life shooters have here in France.
Same note than you with all the shooters I meet.
It's a great familly with a lot of passion and a global vision of laws and respect.
We are responsables peoples and citizens and we dont say the tool (guns) are the problem. But some bad guy's are this problem.

Dont worry, we have a lor of humour.:p

NOVUS COLLECTUS :
Ah ah ah ah !!:D
Price in France are usualy 50% to 400% more expensive than in USA.
This is why actualy with the rate of change we order a maximum of parts for custom our weapon in USA.:)

frenchbushmaster
October 5, 2007, 04:35 PM
30 cal slob :
Mister Sarkozy have many think to do.
He say us (shooter) the law was good and dont need to be more sever.
Only to be respected. That all.
We have an association of Gunsmith, shooting federation, collectionneur, etc ..
They are a bit like an expert office who discuse with the ministery of defense and the politicians for defense of our freedom.

Gustav :
Absolutly, it's axactly like in your GUN SHOW. It's simply smaller :rolleyes:
We are only 200 000 shooter in France. It's a small group of people.

Tommygunn :
Thank's guy !!
We are all brother in arms.;)

frenchbushmaster
November 21, 2007, 06:20 AM
Hello hello,

Just for the pleasure.

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=SEXJrgugePI

The last video of our French TITI miss Laetitia Daguenel our european TSV (sport speed shooting)france champion.
With Hangus Hobdell to. During a match of the european champion ship.

See you, Mick.

frenchbushmaster
January 22, 2008, 05:22 AM
Just for the fun again an other video of basic 30 shoots drill during summer 2007.

Little video clip for the pleasure. I could not post this link on a french forum because authority say it's not politicaly correct.

But here, I'm in USA !!! YYYEEESSSS !:)

Enjoy !
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=71266162235570572

Mick.

HK G3
January 22, 2008, 03:52 PM
Salut frenchbushmaster et barman!

I'm French-American, lived in the US all my life though, and have been aware of some of these laws, but it was very interesting to learn more about the specifics of them, since most of my family are not shooters, or just don't talk about it. Thanks for discussing them! My uncle showed me a Luger his father took off a German officer he killed in WWII, but then said it was technically illegal for him to have the gun, and he hid it from his wife, because it scared her. I always thought that it was odd for that pistol to be illegal, since he's a colonel in l'armee de terre! Thinking back on it, he probably meant it was illegal by his wife's laws.

I had a few questions though. I was wondering whether you can own a fully automatic gun in France. For example, could you purchase a FAMAS G2 without any modifications on it, exact same as the soldiers carry?

I have also been interested in buying some French military grade weapons, particularly the PGM lapua magnum (Mini-Hecate) and a FAMAS. Do you know if the manufacturers would sell to civilians, foreign or domestic? I know it would likely be very expensive, but eventually I may have the money and would really like to buy them.

Merci pour les informations! :)

frenchbushmaster
January 23, 2008, 08:17 AM
Hello,

No problem, We could try to answer you all your question ;)

For the LUGER clear it's a not authorised weapon. Not because you could not buy it. But because he is not a shooter in a club. So he could not ask for the paper for possess officialy this weapon (1 categrorie alinéa 1).
He could declare it after to be declare like shooter and with all the obligation joined to this, like shoot minimum 3 times each year, etc...

For the FAMS Sorry my friend but your right.
Here nobody (civilian) could possess a full auto weapon. It's strictly forbidden since 1995:banghead::(

But a semi automatique it's possible.
this is the picture of the rifle of a friend.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1593/78465927av1.jpg
Semi-automatique .223 caliber.

Not so easy to found. Sometime an old model in semi-auto using .222 rem caliber.

Not so easy to found modern french weapon. Usualy our government prefer send it to USA or any other foreign market. Or destroy it :banghead:

For the PGM if it is the model in .338 LAPUA MAGNUM it's not a problem in France. Forbidden in Germany, but free purchase in France.;)

See you, Mick.

Gunnerpalace
January 23, 2008, 10:49 AM
That's awesome I wish we could get those here, I understand they are pretty accurate.

Blackbeard
January 23, 2008, 11:11 AM
Wow, I have new respect for the French. Not quite free enough for my taste, but not bad for Europe.

silverlance
January 23, 2008, 11:30 AM
=( the french have better gun laws than CA.

at least there's a way to get stuff. Here it's just, no you can't have that... that's a felony... that's an illegal configuration... that's a public nuisance... that's a condor hazard... and "I feel sorry for you, that you feel you need to protect yourself all the time... I have complete faith in the police and their ability to protect me" (mainly verbatim quote from one of the Vtech victims at their antigun protest yesterday).

I'm _so_ going to check out TN this coming march.

cornman
January 23, 2008, 11:42 AM
Thanks for the info. In the good old USA the many are ignorant to the rest of the world or brainwashed by conservitive media. You would be horrified by how many people hate "the French" just because ignorant talk radio hosts says the french evil.

Cheers!

frenchbushmaster
January 23, 2008, 02:23 PM
Yes, our gun laws are not so bad :D
CA is a realy hard state for gun law :(

Cornman :
My friend we have the same conservitive media brainwashed the public opinion about weapons and shooter. They define what is good and what is bad.
They are the new masters of the unic thought.:o

I know than many european peoples have a vision realy bad of USA for the same reason. We are victims of this system.

It's why we must talk and share our reality.
Without any filter ;)

See you, Mick.

HGUNHNTR
January 23, 2008, 09:53 PM
Thank you for all of your information frenchbushmaster!

Last summer my family and I were in Paris (Montmarte) for a month, and then in Aix-en-Provence for another month. It certainly would have been great to have done some shooting, however I did greatly enjoy the excellent food, wine, and French people I had the privledge of meeting.

I can't wait to get back to France, maybe this summer again!

default
January 23, 2008, 11:18 PM
Wow, a semi-auto FAMAS. That is very cool. Alas, something we'll probably never see here in America.

Thanks for all the information, frenchbushmaster. I had the pleasure of visiting France in 1985 and I would love to go back some time. There is a belief among some Americans (ones who presumably neither speak French nor have been to France) that if one goes to France and doesn't speak French perfectly, one better not speak it at all. I can say from direct personal experience that it's not true. In fact, the patience with which my horrific high-school French was tolerated and encouraged by the kind people of Paris is one of the many reasons I'm a Francophile. :)

frenchbushmaster
January 24, 2008, 06:02 AM
Thanks every body for your positive opinion.:)
I used to say we are not as the same level of kindness than some american I meet.
But we (French) become more and more kind every year.
I'm happy to see my compatriots improve their courtesy with peoples visiting their country.
The most important is wher you are, but where you will be tomorrow.

See you, Mick.

Ed DCB
October 10, 2008, 02:09 PM
"a semi-auto FAMAS. That is very cool. Alas, something we'll probably never see here in America"

2 or 3 of them change hands every year in US.

Shung
October 10, 2008, 02:22 PM
just wanted to adress a thing. Feu-Libre is a french SPEAKING forum, with french, belgian, and canadian members, but it is a SWISS forum :) !
I was moderator there. English speakers are welcome if they have any questions.

CannonFodder
October 10, 2008, 03:15 PM
Wow. Even though I lived in France for a while, that was before I became interested in firearms.

Good to know that if I ever decide to move there, I can at least enjoy some of the same stuff.

radioburning
October 10, 2008, 03:40 PM
I was on a 7 day photo shoot for a French clothing catalog. The photographer and I ended up talking about guns, and he was saying that sometimes it can take up to a year to get a gun permit. Talk about a waiting period! He was not a gunner, but seemed very proud of the FAMAS. On a side note, the crew was horrified when I BBQ'd some baby back ribs on set one day. I had to force them to try them. After they tried a little bit, within 5 minutes the ribs were gone, and they were laying around with BBQ sauce all over their faces saying "those were amazing". I lol'd. Very nice people though.

VegasOPM
October 10, 2008, 05:16 PM
Eric Grauffel became one of the top shooters in the world, while practicing in France. There has to be some possibility of ownership.

JCMAG
October 10, 2008, 07:58 PM
Albeit a 10 month old thread, a very good read nonetheless. :)

I'll try a little French: C'est bon que les gens Francais ont l'Liberte aussi! Nous sommes freres, vraiment. (Pardon my absence of accents, but I don't know how to make them on this website!)

This but increases the necessity for the U.S. to fight the U.N.'s designs to disarm the world. :(

Mais c'est bon, parce que on ont des armes a feu :)

mljdeckard
October 10, 2008, 09:51 PM
I just had the extreme pleasure of spending two weeks in Paris (with trips to Versailles, Normandy, and Rouen,) and I must say I was very pleasantly surprised in every way. I had already lived in Europe for four years, and I was still astounded at how well the French live. I still don't quite understand their ingrained culture of contrarianism, but they are not at all stupid, lazy, dirty, or rude.

barman
October 15, 2008, 05:29 PM
Thanks mljdeckard!

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