[Deles136]

I am 67 with a bad heart so I have lost much of my strength. I put a 20# recoil spring in my 1911 copy and found that I could nor rack the slide more than halfway. Many ideas, drawings, went to Wal-Mart for parts and material to make my own device so I could rack any slide with ease. I found that somebody had made a clamp for carpenters,I think, called "Quick-Grip handi-clamp" and when I saw one I knew this would be exactly what I was looking for. Bought two, $4.95 each, went home and held the pistol grip with my laft hand and held the clamp with my right and snuk up behind the 1911 slide and grabbed it where the grooves are at the rear of the slide. The clamp has a cam locking device so I just squeezed tight and then pulled back with the clamp and racked the slide five or six times with ease. Then I pressed the release lever between the handles and the clamp released. I had planned to design and make a device but this clamp works better than any idea that I had. I have ordered the smaller models, this is a 200, for my smaller pistols. I can now rack any slides with ease.

[P95Carry]

Sounds like an excellent .... and inexpensive solution deles!:)

[10-Ring]

Quite ingenious! ;)

[longeyes]

16# spring would help. Any reason for a 20? Cocking the hammer first
will make it somewhat easier to rack slide.

[Deles136]

I installed the 20 to reduce the felt recoil and to reduce the beating to the pistol every time it is fired. I don't know your age but if you were over 65 and 6 feet and 150 pounds I think you might understand the situation a little better. This is not the only pistol I fire and the shape of some of them combined with the various recoil spring pressures often makes it very hard for me to rack the slides. I put this information on the list for the benefit of anyone like me who has difficulty racking slides. There are probably many things I could do differently but after shooting pistols for the last 55 years I think I have tried just about everything that I thought might help me with any pistol problems. Thank you for your suggestions.

[lycanthrope]

I run my 1911 full size with a 17 lb mainspring and a 14 lb recoil spring. A lighter recoil spring will reduce the perceived recoil, not the other way around. Running lighter springs will also reduce muzzle flip SUBSTANTIALLY. In my 5" Kimber this setup has never failed to light a primer or to feed. For $20 from brownells it's worth the time to try.

I run a shok buff to reduce any battering although without it there has been no sign of problem. The trick to reliability with the buff is to trim the edges of the buff and to sand down any sharp edges of the slide that come in contact with it. My current buff has 1000+ rounds with no cutting.

In absence of all this you could always have the slide milled to accept a slide racker, which is essentially what you have used.

[Deles136]

I solved all of my problems with this pistol and many others for $4.95 plus tax. I had gone to Wal-Mart to pick up medicine so I don't even count the trip.

[Shmackey]

I installed the 20 to reduce the felt recoil and to reduce the beating to the pistol every time it is fired.

The beating happens when the slide goes back as well. And a heavy spring will really slam that slide home. No free lunch.

[stans]

Shmackey is right on the money!!! Why not try a Wolfe variable 16 or 18 pound spring and cock the hammer before racking the slide. If you are really worried about battering the slide and frame, use a CP Bullets Tufbuff recoil buffer on the guide rod. Of course, John Browning and the U.S. Army designed the 1911 to function for nearly forever with a standard rate 16 pound spring and no buffers.

[Deles136]

My apologies to anyone who may have found my second post a little short. I often have trouble saying what I mean to say.

I posted the information about the Quick-Grip, which I found out was made by the same company that makes Vise-Grip products, because I was trying to get a message out to people who are old, people with arthritis problems, people who have had a heart attack or stroke, anyone who has trouble being able to grip the slide on a pistol. I had one man post a reply, on another list, that he would buy a clamp because his 12 year old son could rack a Kel-Tec P-32 but could not handle the 9 mm P-11 model. He also said that after his heart attack he could have used the clamp until his strength returned. These are the type of people I was trying to get the message to and I had no intention of starting a gun modification discussion.
I have tried every recoil spring sold by Wolff along with every hammer or main spring I could get from Brownells and all possible combinations of the two. I have also tried three triggers and two hammers and new sears and disconnectors and all new pins and I coated all of the parts with Militec-1 and heated them in an oven at 150 degrees for three hours. I have tried six different sear springs and I have tried different bends to find the best combination for a trigger pull that suited me. I am trying to say that I don't think that I need to make any more changes to my pistol. I was just trying to help people with a loss of grip strength in their hands.

Thanks to all who have tried to help me. If my posts offend it is usually because I don't always get my message out the way I mean to.

Again, thank you.

[4v50 Gary]

When I'm older, this may be useful info. Thank you very much for this ADA friendly suggestion.

BTW, those carpenter clamps are useful for gunbuilders too. Clamp and secure something for drilling, etc.

[stans]

I would think clamping the slide so you can rack it would be a bit cumbersome in a stressful situation (self defense) and could possibly damage the slide, thus reducing any resale value. Perhaps a revolver would be a better choice?

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Deles.

Your best fix would be to use a 14 or 16 pound recoil spring.
20 is way too much spring for a 5-inch gun, and can cause
other problems with feeding and short-cycle ejection. Most new Colt Government Models that I've examined come with a spring that test at 14 to 15 pounds. Schmackey was correct in his statement that the
gun will take the impact, and you will likely run out of money
trying to damage a frame with factory standard ammunition.

I've found that heavier springs tend to tire my hand more quickly
than lighter ones, and that may affect your grip after a 50-round
string, and increase your pain level.

Many of the IDPA and IPSC game players play with recoil spring rates
to put the sights back on target quicker, and the trend has been toward
lighter springs without notable damage to their guns. Those
guys don't waste a trip to the practice range without shooting
several hundred rounds in a session.

Racking the slide with the hammer cocked and an overhand
grip on top of the slide may help make it a little easier for you.
Remember to keep your finger clear of the trigger, because your
left wrist will be in the path of the muzzle blast should the gun fire.
Not that it's an unsafe way to load the chamber, but certain precautions
have to be observed. The overhand rack is my preferred method.


I admire a man who is so dedicated to continuing to enjoy his
pistol, that he strives to find a way to do it, even though it
causes him pain. Hats off to you sir!

Hope this helps,
Tuner

[Deles136]

stans - I have many revolvers and many pistols. This clamp is operated by the pressure of your grip and the pressure it puts on the slide is maybe just slightly more than your hand grip pressure. It has rubber like material on the face of the jaws to protect the finish of anything it is used on. If you have a pistol that has a slide that could be damaged by the pressure of your grip then I would suggest that you not fire the pistol unless you just happen to have a grip that can bend steel. Any pistol that I own that might be used for any type of emergency situation always has a live round chambered and the magazine full of ammunition that I have tested and know to be reliable in that pistol. When I am in my home I have a Kel-Tec P-32 pistol in my left front pocket and a Taurus model 85- 38 special revolver in a holster on my belt. When I walk out of my house I often put my Taurus PT-145 in my back pocket. The various pistols and revolvers that are kept in concealed locations in my house and my shop are always loaded and ready to fire without racking the slide or even cocking the hammer as they are all double action. When I travel I always have at least two pistols loaded and ready for easy access in my car along with the pistols in my pockets and in holsters on my belt. I do not use the clamp in battle, I am just starting to loose my grip strength due to being 67 years old and having problems with arthritis and having congestive heart failure which keeps me from doing as many physical activities as I used to. I would suggest that you buy one of these clamps for about $5.00 the next time your are in a hardware store and give it a try. If it is of no value to you then you can return it but at least you will know how it works so that the next time you post a reply to my post we will be on equal ground with the discussion. Many thanks.

[Deles136]

1911 Tuner - I do not agree with you about using lower weight springs in the older model 1911 style pistols as I believe that this will cause the
timing of the pistol to change and the slide will start back too soon and your shot pattern will suffer as a result. The pistol that I am working on with the 20# spring is a 1927 model Colt made in Argentina. I only shoot full load factory ammunition. As I stated in my previous post, I do not have a pistol problem. I have a physical problem that makes it very difficult for me to rack the slide on any pistol including my Kel-Tec P-32 with a 9# recoil spring. The pistols are not the problem. Old age, arthritis, and congestive heart failure are the problems. The clamp that I found makes it possible for me to be able to rack the slide on any pistol without any problems and with much more safety than a person would have if they were trying to rack a slide with a live cartridge in the pistol and they did not have enough hand grip pressure to do the job safely. I will again suggest to all list members that they go out and buy one of these very cheap clamps and try it. If you think that I have misinformed the list about the uses of this device to help people who have some degree of difficulty with racking the slide on a pistol then we can discuss that after you have tried the device.
Many thanks.

[Deles136]

Tuner - When I use the clamp to rack the slide I no longer feel any pain and this is only one of the reasons I like the clamp.

[1911Tuner]

re-Howdy Deles,

A lighter spring won't affect the recoil timing. Ned Christiansen ran
a test by repeatedly firing a 1911 without a spring at all, and there
was no evidence of early linkdown or damage to the impact surfaces.

I have a GI Colt that was manufactured in 1918 that I've rebuilt
twice since I took possession of it in 1975. By best estimate, I've
run close to 100,000 rounds through it, and it's never had a spring
heavier than 14 pounds/32.5 coils since I've had the gun.

What a heavier than standard spring CAN do is cause short-cycle
related malfunctions. Rideover feeds...Live round stovepipes...
extractor breakage and loss of tension due to push-feeding and
forcing the extractor hook to snap over the rim...failure to lock
the slide on empty. These feeding issues generally show up on the
last round, and magazine spring condition can also be a factor.

Cheers!
Tuner

[Shaughn Leayme]

1911Tuner,

Pardon the slight hijacking of the topic.

What about the spring weights for those pistols that regularly shoot +P almost exclusively (200 HP/FMJ 1050 - 1100 fps) and those shooting 45 Super or 460 Rowland or 45-08 or contemplating it.

The pistol is more or less stock save for a ramped barrel and fitted bushing and some minor internal changes.

What would your choice be or how would you approach it.

Thanks.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy Shauhgn,

I have a formula that I use to calculate a spring rate for a given
loading. This is for .45 ACP/1911 only, as Idon't have experience
with the Super.

Velocity X .2
Add or subtract the bullet weight percentage difference from
230. For velocities above 1,000 fps, add one percent per 100
fps.

Example: GI Hardball...230 (actually 234) 830 fps plus/minus
25 fps. 830 X.2 would figure to be about a 16.5 pound spring...
or exactly what JMB's original design specified.

A 200-grain bullet at 1050 would call for a 21.5 pound spring...
minus the percentage difference between 230 and 200 grains
or roughly 11 percent. 21.5 minus 11 percent would work out to be
about a 19 pound spring, plus or minus a half-pound for the added velocity
above 1000 fps

This won't be exact, due to dimensional tolerances from one pistol to the
next, but it will get you close enough to allow you to fine-tune the
spring by clipping a half-coil or so until the pistol functions.

Be aware than you may need a heavier magazine spring with any
recoil spring rate above 19 pounds in full compression.

Hope this helps,
Tuner

[Deles136]

Tuner - The information that you posted may be correct in every aspect but as I said before I do not have a pistol problem, I have a physical problem.

If and when I have any problems with the pistol that I put the 20# spring in, I will just pick up one of the four other types of 1911 pistols that I own and use it for a while.

Many thanks for the info and I will do some more research to try and decide why I am getting conflicting reports on the use of non-standard springs in 1911 type pistols.

[1911Tuner]

Luck to ya Deles. I understand the problem that you have. My
step-father is 80, and has a tough time with his pistols. A 14-pound
recoil spring made it much easier for him to put it in battery. I wish
I could give a suggestion on the recoil issue...About the only thing I
know is to get a 1911 in 9mm and use it for practice, and hold the
.45 in reserve for the chance that you need a bigger caliber.

The 5-inch 9mm guns use a 13# spring as standard, and you can
go as low as 11 with those.

A final suggestion for range work would be to put an empty magazine
in the gun, rack the slide with the rear sight on the edge of a table.
The slide will lock, and you can put the gun in battery with the
slide release.

Take care, and keep yourpowder dry.
Tuner

[Nero Steptoe]

Tuner and Deles: You both have provided valuable, usable information in this thread; however, I'd like to point out that both of you left out what could possibly be the most important information of all: "What would Teddy and Dave do?" :)

[Deles136]

Tuner - Since I found, and am using, the Quick-Grip clamp all of my difficulties with racking the slides of any of the pistols that I own has completely dissappeared and I no longer have any problem or pain while performing this procedure. If this is difficult for you to comprehend then maybe I am not making myself clear. I no longer have the problem because I use the clamp and it works great for me. I do not know how to say this any better so I will stop trying.

Many thanks,

[MoNsTeR]

Slick solution, but the heavy spring is the problem.

No reason to use more than 16# for standard loads, and a strong argument for using a lighter spring. We've had a couple of discussions about this recently, but I feel it bears repeating. Take your gun to the range with your stock spring and the 20# spring, shoot, then swap and shoot some more. If you're shooting with a proper stance and grip, the stock 16# spring WILL appear to recoil less and yield less muzzle flip.

Just last week I took my Hi-Power to the range with the stock spring (17# according to Wolff) and a Wolff 18.5# spring. I shot some with the heavy spring, then swapped in the light spring. Just that slight decrease in spring weight resulted in a readily perceptible decrease in recoil and muzzle flip, allowing me to shoot much faster and more comfortably.

[1911Tuner]

Tuner and Deles: You both have provided valuable, usable information in this thread; however, I'd like to point out that both of you left out what could possibly be the most important information of all: "What would Teddy and Dave do?"


ARRRRRRRRGHHHHHH!!!!:banghead:


Cheers!:D
Tuner

[1911Tuner]

Sorry deles...I understood what you were tryin' to say, and I was offering a
possible way to lose the gadget if you wanted to. If you're okay with it,
nada problemo.

Take care, and keep your powder dry!

Tuner

[Deles136]

Tuner - The slide "gadget" will now stay with me for the rest of the trip.

After reading your formula I decided to go to my spring box and check my log on the inside of the cover to make sure what springs I had put in this pistol. I found that I had installed a 20# spring the first time I tried the pistol. I found that the trigger pull was well beyond what it should be. I found the problem as someone had bent the sear spring arms way past normal because the sear would drop out when the slide was racked without the extra pressure from the sear spring. After I corrected that problem I installed a 17.5# Wolff extra power variable recoil spring and I installed an 18# Wolff reduced power hammer spring. I shoot 220 grain PMP South African made ammo because I bought some for 10 cents a round from Century. The ammo seems to be stronger than many other brands I have tried but I do not how many fps the 220 grain bullets travel. The ammo is dirtier than some but I can live with that. I was wondering what effect the reduced power hammer spring had on the slide recoil because I know that if I cock the hammer before I rack the slide it is much easier.

I would appreciate it if you would use your formula and try to calculate what changes I might need to make to have my pistol set up right. I have now solved the racking problem so that is not a factor anymore.

Many thanks for your help,

[Navy joe]

Deles, Someone passingly mentioned a "slide racker". Beyond putting a light spring back in you need a racker put on your gun. It is just a short rod or handle threaded or dovetailed into your slide that sticks out from the side. Easy to grip, get one made that suits you. I'm sure the clamp works great for range fun, but if you ever need to use your gun for real you won't have time to find a clamp if your gun malfunctions. You need to clear the gun with what you already have in your hands. Fast. The option is don't get your gun working and die.
Rackers are mostly used by competitors to clear optics mounted on the pistol, but you can have one too. Not too svelte for CCW, so maybe a revolver would be a better carry choice for you.

Option #2. If you have a real 1911, as in no full length guide rod, you can rack the slide by pushing the front of the slide below the barrel into the nearest hard edge like a table edge, wall corner, or bookshelf. I have only needed this once to clear a ridiculous malfunction caused by someone else's foul reloads. You can easily exert much more force than you can by pulling on the slide. Don't be shy, I fed mine to the nearest hard object at full force with no ill effect to the gun.

[HBK]

I was gonna give my Dad a Beretta 92 for Father's Day and his birthday, but he is not a fan of semi-autos, mainly because he's older and has difficulty racking the slide. We traded it for a Smith and Wesson M-60 and he is one happy camper.

[1911Tuner]

Hi Deles,

I thought that you were still using the 20# spring. The variable 17.5
number sounds much more reasonable. Though I have never used
them, They get the thumbs up from such notable smiths as Dane Burns.
He feels that they do well over a wider range of ammunition specs than a
straight spring. Since I don't know the PMP ammo's velocity, I can only take a shot in the dark, and say that the variable that you're using is okay.

Navy Joe may have just opened a door with his suggestion. I had
forgotten about the neat little add-on racker that the racegunners
use, and they seem to work very well. Thanks Joe!

My concern now lies with your problem with the sear "falling out".

If you mean it breaks contact with the hammer hooks, and follows the slide,
that could be a problem with a big red DANGER sign attached, unless
you had a pistolsmith correct it by re-cutting the hooks and sear angle.

It's my guess that the hooks have worn to a point of negative engagement
instead of neutral... or captive (positive engagement.) If you haven't had
a smith check the hooks and sear, PLEASE do so. An unexpected
full-auto event can be disastrous. He may advise you to replace
the hammer and sear.

A lighter mainspring (hammer spring) will make it more likely to bounce
out of engagement with the hooks, and the difference that it makes in
your trigger pull will be small compared to a standard 23# spring.

If you would like to drop your recoil spring rate a little lower, the heavier
mainspring will help in slowing the slide in recoil to reduce frame to
slide impact, since that's a concern.

Take care, and keep us posted on this.

Tuner

[1911Tuner]

As an aside, to explain why I am an advocate of lighter recoil springs
rather than heavy ones is for reasons of reliability in a carry gun.

While I use the heaviest spring that will give good function in a
hard-use range pistol, I go in the opposite direction for a carry
gun. The reason is simple.

The 1911 design relies heavily on a good, strong grip to avoid
cycling malfunctions, and a weak grip has long been associated with these. Often referred to as "Limp Wristing", it can also be
due to having your grip broken due to arthritic pain, fatigue, or
not being able to obtain a good grip when in a hurry. The stronger
the recoil spring, the more sensitive the pistol is to proper grip,
or lack thereof.

I have often noticed that my hand will tire during a long range
session, and malfunctions sometimes show up. When I take a
break to rest my hand, the malfunctions disappear. This is
noticed more often when there is a heavier than standard spring in the gun.

For carry pistols, my practice has long been to tweak the pistol to
feed in semi-slow motion without a recoil spring in the gun. When
it will do that, it will feed reliably during live fire with a lighter than
standard spring, and will be much less likely to have a stoppage
in the event that the perfect grip or firing stance can't be obtained.
A defensive pistol will have to be deployed quickly, and there is at
least an even chance that it will be necessary to fire one-handed
while the weak hand fends off a close-quarters attack. The pistol
may have to be fired from hip level, with the wrist angled slightly
upward...or even held sideways, as with the "Gansta" technique.

Several things may work against the classic, two-hand Weaver stance.
Time and proximity of the attack are just two, and I have long been a
proponent of making the pistol functional under the absolute worst
of circumstances rather than worry about slide to frame impact
damaging the gun. If I am fighting for my life, that is the least of my
worries. That area of the gun is engineered to take the pounding,
and even so, the three or four rounds that I would need to fire in
a life and death struggle wouldn't make a measureable dent.

With a range pistol, reliable function isn't as critical, and a stovepipe
or failure to go to battery can work for us as practice in malfunction
clearance drills.

Just my nickel's worth...Your mileage may vary.
Tuner

[Deles136]

Tuner - My 1911 is a range pistol with a scope mount that replaces the right grip panel. The scope mount makes it difficult to get a good grip on the slide so I use the clamp.

I looked at all or the parts to try and determine what the sear problem was and they all looked to be in good condition but when I was inspecting the frame I found that over the years that worn magazines had probably been used in this pistol and because of that the magazines would allow the base of the first round to lean back enough, when the magazine was being inserted, and the base of the top round would catch on the thin piece of metal just forward of the center of the disconnector.This is the piece of the frame that separates the mag well from the area where the disconnector operates at the top of the mag well. When I looked in the mag well, I could see this piece of metal had a dip in it that was pushed to the rear of the pistol and was pressing on the back of the disconnector. I took my Dremel tool and a small tapered grinding wheel and remover about .150" of the lower edge of this thin metal piece, just in the center,and that removed the problem.
Now when I cycle the action the disconnector can seat properly as it no longer hits this bent in piece of metal. When I insert the magazine there is clearance between the magazine and the disconnector with no problem and I have not removed enough metal to cause any other problems.

[BigG]

Here's an idea I got from Rex Applegate: Hold gun in strong hand, grab slide with weak hand and hold it in place while you PUSH forward with your strong hand. Slide is racked quite a bit easier this way in my experience.

[1911Tuner]

I didn't know it was a range gun with an optical sight mount. Now we're
on the same page.

Since you've figured out what was lifting the disconnect and fixed it,
it's possible that the bottom corner of the disconnector wasn't prepped
during assembly, and that will allow the magazine to lift it too...and
result in the sear losing engagement with the hammer hooks.

The first symptom will be a hair trigger after a mag change, especially
it the magazine is slammed in with force. Next time you detail strip
the frame, look at the bottom corner on the disconnector...the corner
that you can see through the magwell. If it's sharp, it can be beveled
or radiused a little to let it clear the magazine.

Since it's primarily a range gun, and the fixture that you rigged to give you
a grip on the slide works well...Carry on! The 17.5 variable spring should do fine as long as you shoot hardball ammo, or a close equivalent..
which PMP likely is. If you decide to use a reduced power target type
round, you may need a lighter spring.

Happy shootin!

Tuner

[Deles136]

Tuner - Thanks for the tip about the bottom corner of the disconnector, I will check it.

When I was on the range in Boot Camp in 1953 learning how to shoot the 1911 pistol, the range instructor was a WW 2 vet. He said NOT to slam the magazines in hard on these old pistols because the lips at the top could get bent in and cause feeding problems. He also told us that if we had a jam or other problem to hold the pistol downrange and up at a 45 degree angle and to raise the other hand and wait for him. The young man standing on my left had a jam and turned around towards me with the pistol pointed at my stomach when the instructor grabbed the pistol with one hand and punched the young man in the jaw with the other hand and knocked him to the ground. The instructor had been standing right behind us and that is why he could react so fast. I listened very carefully to every word that instructor had to say from then on.

Thanks for all of your help.