BG Encounters: What are you prepared for?


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brashboy
August 24, 2007, 11:49 PM
Another of the seemingly endless line of .380 threads got me thinking. Why do these arguments about caliber, about how much gun is enough, keep coming up? Very interesting. Guys have taken multiple shots from .357s and similar weapons and not been incapacitated. An article in the latest CH discusses a coked-up BG shot in the chest with 9mm numerous times who kept renewing the attack. The LE cleared another fallen LE's gun jam and finally got enough 9's in the BG to drop him. (I suspect the BG actually was a zombie, but the magazine rather annoyingly danced around the subject.)

So, the 9mm is a more powerful round than .380, no question. But almost any cartridge you pick, there is a more powerful one. I don't want to meet the BG who can take a .460SW and stay on his feet. Bear with me, I'm working my way around to the question.

Where does the quest for firepower and knockdown end? We can all envision scenarios of an attacker on PCP or something else who doesn't flinch from a pistol round. Or worse, several attackers. No matter what you carry, will you have enough ammo? There is a practical limit to what can be carried, especially CCW. So if the .380 is a bit more anemic than the 9mm, there could easily be a situation where the 9/.40/.45 just doesn't cut it, either.The guy packing a .460SW certainly will never be underpowered for BGs but he could easily be in a situation where he just doesn't have enough rounds with him. Not to mention the fact that his hearing will be a memory after the gunfight. Not to mention size and weight of gun, etc.

Very few of us acting alone would prevail in a real firefight with multiple desperados, especially if they know their business. We would be outgunned, outshot, out of ammo. It is not practical to CCW enough gun and ammo for such a situation. There always is a compromise on weight and size, concealability, mag capacity, round power... whatever.

This question is not intended as a put down of any kind. Reading so many threads/arguments about caliber got me thinking about WHAT precisely the CCW crowd considers themselves ready for.

Now for the question:
Have you thought through your carry to what situations you are prepared for? And what are they?

For myself, I typically carry a Mauser Hsc .380 Corbon 90-gr., 6 +1 (lighter, thinner than the PT111, which I also like in the 147-gr.). No extra mag on me usually, though I keep two in the car. I am anticipating one, perhaps two, BGs, and if I have to pull the trigger I will shoot to kill. If 7 shots won't do it, would 13 or 20?I will try like all hell to keep it from getting to that point, but who knows? Running gunbattles with multiple BGs can happen, but I am usually with my family, and their safety is my first concern. If there are multiple BGs with firearms, I will concentrate efforts on getting away, saving ammo if possible. I have no macho fantasies to live, I just want my family to live; me too, hopefully.

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dstorm1911
August 25, 2007, 12:16 AM
ya hit em in the face they will stop fighting...... If all I'm carryin is the tiny lil Keltec P3AT (it is normally backup for a .45 or a .40) by itself for whatever reason then I'm going to alter the way it is used, in otherwords I'm getting in close to the threat. I will be emptying the lil KT into chest and face. If carrying say onea my Springfield XDs on the other hand I'm going to have better accuracy and a harder hitting round two 180 grn Hollow points to the chest 1 to the face it doesn't matter what drugs are in his blood he's going to cease to be a threat........ I shoot every single day with a large variety of weapons.... Have been involved in Martial arts most of my life....... I also make a point of ALWAYS being aware of my surroundings at all times the average BG notices this and generally will look for an easier target... I have no choice but to be in some less than optimal locations so the best thing ya can do is not look like a victim while your there...

Ya gotta practice with the gun ya are carrying, I practice with the Keltecs out to 15 yards ballistically Thats the furthest I'm going to trust the caliber and I've hit coffee cans at that range and collected the bullet outa em with a big dent in the opposite side of the can, if all ya have is the .380 then ya needa practice shooting accurately and how to work in close to get the best benefit of the round for self defense thats why mouse guns are not recommended as main defensive guns unless ya cannot carry anything else....

sm
August 25, 2007, 12:25 AM
-Not being where trouble is
-Evading if trouble shows up
-Dealing with trouble in whatever way so I survive.

Now if a firearm is part of the toolbox, great.
If not, well, then that is why I have spent the tome on Software, not Hardware.
That I most often wear tennis shoes these days...

Oh, Lady Luck is always always welcome to show up!


<raises hand>

Does anybody know if the 6mm vs .243 debate ever got settled?
Just wondering, as I recall this debate in a 1955 Field & Stream, and over the years it kept going on...

Umm, how about the .38spl vs 9mm debate in a F&S article that was done before I was born in 1955?

I guess I better stick with the Software stuff since the Hardware stuff ain't settled yet...

gbran
August 25, 2007, 01:30 AM
Too often we think worse case scenario when deciding what to ccw with. We think of drug crazed zombies or getting cornered by 13 gangbangers, etc......... But, we really need to prepare for the most likely threat we're apt to run into. We can't arm for all situations, therefore we compromise and hope & pray the worst doesn't confront us.

We use situational awareness, we don't go to risky places, etc. Criminals are cowards and don't want to get shot any more than you do. Sometimes their knowing you're armed is enough to difuse a situation. The time may even come when you have to shoot. Just hope and pray it ain't the zombie or hordes of ganbangers.

I've looked long and hard for a 600 Nitro pockect gun that has a 15 round magazine and kicks like a .22. Since I can't find one, I've compromised with a Glock G26. Probably not big enough for the zombies.

Soybomb
August 25, 2007, 04:53 AM
Guys have taken multiple shots from .357s and similar weapons and not been incapacitated.
People have kept fighting after being shot with 00 buck and slugs too. Just because no weapon is 100% should we not try to seek out the most effective weapon of the size we can carry. I see no reason to carry a .380 if you can carry a 9mm of the same size, weight, and shootability...which you often can. That doesn't mean you can slip a sw500 into the same place. To me its about making the most of what you have.

If 7 shots won't do it, would 13 or 20? This has always been one of the oddest things to me about concealed carry discussions. People seem to think that every round they carry is going to be a hit. If they carry 7 rounds, they're going to be able to shoot someone 7 times. With leo self defense shootings the hit rate is around 20-25% tops from what I've seen. Lets say you're a little better shot and two of your 7 rounds will hit your attacker. Are you confident that 2 hits is all it will take to stop an attack on you and your family? Even if you just have 1 attacker, thats not much.

jwr_747
August 25, 2007, 08:12 AM
most of my thinking on what to carry depends on where I'm headed.downtown booger town carry the 45.farmers market,wide open spaces lots of folks,may take the Beretta 21A because there I see the biggest threat as a car jacking,and I don't care how much crack you have in you at arms distance 7 rounds of 22LR in the nose ,eye,forehead area will put you down. jwr

Snowman92D
August 25, 2007, 08:49 AM
Sounds like you've never dealt with anyone who was on crack and committed to killing you. Best of luck with your .22 rimfire.

Marlin 45 carbine
August 25, 2007, 09:46 AM
I'm lot better prepared than I was for the one I was in years ago.

koja48
August 25, 2007, 10:53 AM
Heavy into situational awareness & avoidance, then evasive action, and finally hardware application, usually in the form of a 1911 when away from the base. Options expand when inside the perimeter.

skud_dusty
August 25, 2007, 11:03 AM
I'm a good sized person, 6ft2, about 230. The only reason I'm ever going to pull my firearm is if the other person has a firearm or other deadly weapon. I carry enough to disable that person from using their weapon on me. If it doesn't "stop" them, I think I can handle anything else without bullets :)

If meth/coke is the case, and a few to the chest doesn't stop them, then it's right between the eyes.

mavracer
August 25, 2007, 12:33 PM
Heavy into situational awareness & avoidance, then evasive action, and finally hardware application.
If meth/coke is the case, and a few to the chest doesn't stop them, then it's right between the eyes
+1
then after that come to the realization that no matter how well I prepare the situation may not allow for my survival and do my best to take the B@$T@** with me.

p85
August 25, 2007, 12:46 PM
Let's say 2 out of 7 are hits, 15 in the mag and 1 in the pipe means 4 hits, more or less. My 10mm with 180 grain dbl tap with 2 COM and 2 to the head should stop a threat. At the very least, it will slow them down to where even I can out run them.:D

Risasi
August 25, 2007, 01:06 PM
scud_dusty,

Overconfidence is your weakness. Expect attacks to come at you sideways.

Cosmoline
August 25, 2007, 01:19 PM
Have you thought through your carry to what situations you are prepared for? And what are they?

Drawing and firing a concealed handgun in order to stop an imminent deadly peril while getting to concealment, cover and ideally an escape route. It's simply a tool to cover retreat. I do not envision myself getting in a high noon gunfight or standing my ground if I'm not physically prevented from doing so. This has nothing to do with a duty to retreat. It's simply good tactics. The best way to win a gunfight is from behind C&C with a high powered rifle aimed at your enemy's chest. The best way to lose one is standing out in the open while standing tall.

don't care how much crack you have in you at arms distance 7 rounds of 22LR in the nose ,eye,forehead area will put you down

Probably so, but while lethal the .22LR also has a reputation as a poor STOPPER. It kills, but not very quickly. You can nick an artery or get a bullet lodged in a bad place that's impossible to get out safely in surgery, but these will take a bit of time to have effect. Maybe even five or ten minutes or more. So a lot of people who get shot with them COM do die, it's not before having ample opportunity to follow through with the attack on you. For example, President Reagan almost died after getting hit with a .22 to the torso. But he still had energy to run off and was even walking around before collapsing.

sacp81170a
August 25, 2007, 01:27 PM
Oh, Lady Luck is always always welcome to show up!

My problem is that Murphy tends to show up more frequently than Lady Luck, so I always prepare for his appearance rather than hers.

Regardless of what you're ready for, it's best to remember to have an open mind.

"Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you'll neither live nor win. That's just the way it is." - Clint Eastwood in "The Outlaw Josie Wales"

igpoobah
August 25, 2007, 02:01 PM
I'm ready for one somewhat motivated bad guy who doesn't catch me too much by surprise.

I'm OK with that. I realize that it could be much worse than that, but that is not likely. It is unlikely I will encounter the first BG I mentioned.

I'm just happy that I am armed when out and about. I figure that just brandishing the pistol will ward off most BG's and that's only if I haven't already escaped.

KiltedClaymore
August 25, 2007, 02:09 PM
most states will arrest you for brandishing your firearm. even if you had a reason, its still public endangerment. never pull unless you are gonna kill is what i was taught. forgive me if i offend anyone.

igpoobah
August 25, 2007, 02:25 PM
I'm sorry, but if I feel my life is threatened and I pull with the intention to kill and the BG does an immediate about face and heads the other direction, you expect me to shoot the BG in the back?

KiltedClaymore
August 25, 2007, 02:41 PM
theres always an exception to the rule. i think that would be deemed a justified "brandishing" by most police. what i was talking about is if you are not threatened with immediate death, pulling a gun is not acceptable. if you can get away, do so. give them what they want and they will usualy go away, because not many criminals want to end up in the chair because they killed someone while stealing a wallet. now, if the guy has a knife or other weapon, go right ahead. i just frown on flashing guns as a deterance. it could provoke violence that would have otherwise not happened.

James T Thomas
August 25, 2007, 03:27 PM
"KC:"
"Brandishing" for deterrence effect is often ineffective, and some times even a "challenge" to those, say, under the influence, etc. Correct.

On the other hand "giving them what they want," may not always result in a peacefull solution, particularly with today's cold hearted murderous criminals!
How about those poor kids at the WA "Starbucks" who must have given robbers the register money, only to be "herded" into a store room and executed in cold blood. "I'm never going back to prison." Is the rationale, if you can call it that. Too many of the convenience store robberies end up like this. Presence of customers or "witnesses" or not.

If you are armed, but "under the gun," you are in dire circumstance to begin with. I would then be intending to some how get ahead of the "loop," and very judicious in any cooperation with a perp who may, or may not want "just your money."

KiltedClaymore
August 25, 2007, 05:51 PM
just throwin my .02 in.

brashboy
August 25, 2007, 06:46 PM
most states will arrest you for brandishing your firearm. even if you had a reason, its still public endangerment. never pull unless you are gonna kill is what i was taught.

This would seem to be the number one thing a lot of people don't think about when envisioning street encounters. What you do on the streets and how it looks in the courtroom could be two very different things. Just showing a weapon is a very significant act. Actually pulling it is an even bigger one. I go by the old saw of never drawing the sword unless it is going to draw blood. There needs to be a compelling reason to show or pull the piece, like a direct and immediate threat from a knife or gun.

KiltedClaymore
August 25, 2007, 07:10 PM
Brashboy to the rescue!

skud_dusty
August 26, 2007, 12:35 AM
If I'm overconfident, then so is every other person that carries a 1911. My carry weapon has a 7 round capacity, 2 more than a 5 shot revolver which many many people carry.

Don't get me wrong, I know I came off a little cocky in my previous post. I did not mean it that way. I am confident enough to take care of myself, but I also know that a weapon may some day be needed...so I carry one.

vanilla_gorilla
August 26, 2007, 03:28 AM
What happens if you miss? A few times? What about multiple assailants? What about multiple assailants when you're down to your last round or two?

Large bullets and multiple spare magazines can go a long way toward piece of mind and body.

KiltedClaymore
August 26, 2007, 10:58 AM
so could a hand grenade :evil:

chieftain
August 26, 2007, 11:34 AM
Or like the two LEO's in Idaho a few years back.

The BG's, two of them, one was hit IIRC 28 times and #2 was hit 16 times. Neither was stopped or killed. I have seen folks hit by 50 BMG not be stopped. Even with rifles it happens. It just doesn't happen often.

By 230gr 45acp JHP's. Or the last Officer involved shooting with the 45acp by the Texas DPS was a Contact shot that didn't stop the BG. The BG still used what remained of his can of whoop ass on the officer.

ALL HAND GUN CALIBERS HAVE POOR STOPPING POWER. ALL OF THEM.

No exceptions to the rule. That's why what ever you are using, shoot them to ground with it.

Know your weapon, know the cartridge and the bullet you choose, everyone of them have pluses and minuses. Use that data to work for you. Because if you don't, what ever negatives it has will surely work against you.

If you think you may be in a fight, take a long arm, and a lot of friends with long arms and still try to avoid it.

A fellow wrote a book about this years ago. DARWIN was his last name.

I enjoy the part where people feel their sidearms are all they need. The only reason we use side arms is convenience, not efficiency for fighting.

Have a plan. Next time you pop in the local Stop 'n' Rob, or the Movie rental store. What are you going to do if some guy is robbing the store when you walk in? What is your plan? Which hand are you carrying the movies you are bringing back? Etc..... Will you have your kids, wife, girl friend etc with you. Must you go defensive to protect stay neutral to avoid, or attack? What is your planned deception move/act?

While you are bent over putting your little one, or grandchild in the child seat, and the BG comes' up behind you? What's your plan?

What are you going to do if you are injured and broke your arm at work. Now you are walking around with a cast on? What is your plan "B". Or as you get older, can't move as well, or fight unarmed as you could before that Heart attack or what ever.

Get a reliable platform, in a weapon that fits you, not you fit the weapon, train, train some more, get quality practice. and PLAN!

If caliber is still your big question, I don't think you really understand the question.

Go figure.

Fred

vanilla_gorilla
August 26, 2007, 12:06 PM
Wish I'd said all that, Fred.

skud_dusty
August 27, 2007, 01:56 AM
I like to live by a quote my father has said as long as I can remember: if you're born to hang, you'll never drown.

I'm not going to go through life worrying about if the 7 rounds I'm carrying will be enough. I'm also not going to inconvience myself by carrying my AR everywhere I go. I carry what I feel is enough for what I might encounter. If it's my time to go, then it's my time to go.

Autolycus
August 27, 2007, 02:24 AM
I dont know what I am prepared for but I do know what I will have to deal with. Its easy to talk about how your going to shoot the badguy in the face 7 times or going to give him 2 to the chest and 1 to the head, when that time comes it will not necessarily be so.

I know that I cannot necesarily prepare for anything in particular but have to rely on what I bring with me. Hopefully it will be enough.

brashboy
August 27, 2007, 11:06 PM
Fred's comments are getting more to the heart of what I am thinking. The handgun is a last resort kind of thing. I am always aware of who is around me, but know that a BG could sidle up while I'm putting grandson into a car seat, for example. Alertness and a cool head are of vastly more value than a gun. The gun is for when a cool head alone just won't solve the problem.

This would be hard to research, but of all the guys who pulled, or pulled and used, their carry piece: what percentage of them were glad they did, and what percentage wish to hell they didn't have a gun that day? As an attorney (don't practice anymore), I am VERY concerned about the legal post-mortem on a shooting, or even showing the gun. My son, when 16 (now 32) was threatened by an ex-girlfriend and her then 25-year old boyfriend, who tried to lure him out of the house and had told acquaintences in common that they were going to hurt my son. He went and got a revolver and showed it on the front doorstep, but didn't point it. A felony menacing arrest happened before nightfall. We hired an attorney famed for such things, and she made it go away. But get this: the State of Colorado was a bit concerned about the constitutionality of the statute, knew it would be challenged by a strong attorney and didn't want a test case to be one with wobbly facts, so the charges were dismissed. That's a lot of bullsh*t and over $3K in legal fees. But someone who couldn't afford that attorney, it could have had a different result. Hell, he could have been tried as an adult.

I've seen things over the years absolutely transformed into something else by the time it hit the courtroom, where the BG if he survived, has been cleaned up, put in a suit, given a haircut and his tats are not showing.

And don't kid yourself, a LOT of folks think there is something odd, and even perhaps sinister, about people who carry - almost like they were hoping something would happen so they could use the gun. Despite the 2nd Amendment and carry laws, a jury has its own mind. This is why I'll show or pull the piece, much less use it, only if that seems the only way out.

koja48
August 27, 2007, 11:23 PM
Training, tools, & instinct. Hopefully, I'll never encounter such a threat, BUT, if it happens, I'm sure my Kids would rather see me in court than in a coffin . . . hiring an attorney is undesirable . . . hiring a mortician is final.

kiwibird1
August 28, 2007, 09:41 AM
I live in sunny, hot and humid FL and a .380 will have to do. With the right ammo it should not be an issue. Besides 2 to the chest and 1 to the head should take care of even the meth zombies.

chieftain
August 29, 2007, 02:02 AM
I live in sunny, hot and humid FL and a .380 will have to do. With the right ammo it should not be an issue. Besides 2 to the chest and 1 to the head should take care of even the meth zombies.

I am from Melbourne Florida, 173 miles south of you (think Cape Canaveral). I carried a 357mag model 66 S&W and SIG 228 or 220 while I was living at home.

Now I live in cold and chilly Sun City Arizona, now a suburb of Phoenix. It was only 115 degrees here today. So I guess Jacksonville is warmer than any place I have lived. That's why I carry either a 5" 1911, or 4.6" Hi Power, because of the heat. Some friends of mine out here carry some really heavy Iron, concealled. And yes they do know how to deploy it and apply it.

With that said. You will do fine with your 380, as long as you can do all that (2 to COM and One to the head, or the Mozambique) to your chosen Meth Zombie while moving, single handed (both weak and strong handed) moving fore or aft, port or starboard, or at any of the laterals closing or separating. Just like a a true SPECOPS operator. Not while standing in your square firing range, and shooting standing still with two hands, all that is, is hardly a start. (it's about that deploy and apply capability, thingy)

When you can do all the above consistently, then yes your 380, 38, 357mag/SIG, 40,10,9,45, or 44 are good to go.

Once again, it ain't about caliber. It's about YOU and your capabilities with a reliable platform.

Go figure.

Fred

brashboy
August 29, 2007, 03:39 PM
I'm sure my Kids would rather see me in court than in a coffin . . . hiring an attorney is undesirable . . . hiring a mortician is final.

The better-in-court-than-dead answer is one I hear a lot. I don't mean to pick on Koja, but it sounds almost like a pre-emptive justification for showing or using a firearm, or at least not considering "lesser" alternatives, b/c even if the showing or using turns out to be problematical, well heck, you're still better off in court than dead. Well, if it comes to a gun battle and you win it, you have a point. But you could wind up in a heap of trouble where nobody died, or even got shot, in which case the better in court than dead does not apply.

And that answer also carries an implied assumption that, however big a hassle the "court" part is, you'll prevail in the end. But you might not win the case. How about better in prison than dead? Lousy choice. I'm simply reminding everyone that a license to carry is not a license to show or use. As an attorney, I've heard a lot of guys over the years go from very assured tough talk to crying and shaking jags as they realize they could wind up in the old gray rock college. And it happens to good people, not just jerks.

If you do wind up in a big legal hassle, or worse, fighting for your freedom, you will replay the gun incident in your mind hundreds of times, thinking how you should have done it, how you wish to God you'd done it.

All I'm saying is, try to do it the first time you way you'll later think you "should have done it". That is an impossible standard, I know, but one worthy of "shooting" for.

WVMountainBoy
August 29, 2007, 08:36 PM
I'm 6'4" and a hair over 300 lbs, I can look quite intimidating even if my weapon is concealed. I carry a different weapon for different situations. When going out around the city and such I carry a 40 that I'm very proficient with. I carry with 13 rds and an additional 10 rd clip on my person. From all I've seen and experimented with the .40 it seems more than capable of a one shot stop if I do my part. I practice doing rapid fire strings and even firing off hand and can still usually decimate a pumpkin at 15 yds.

That being said I carry a .45 when I'm hunting because the target may not be a human, it could be a bear, mountain lion, or something else that thinks I smell like dinner and in that case I want more punch than the .40.

On my property I usually carry a 9mm because the worst encounter I am likely to have is a copperhead or skunk.

I try to carry appropriate to what is my most likely encounter and what is the lowest amount of recoil/penetration I can get away with in the given scenario. In the city, over penetration is a MAJOR concern so I want something that just hits hard enough. Out in the country, overpenetration be damned as theres not much if anything to account as collateral damage. Around the house my stuff is the collateral along with water lines, gas lines, and pets.

jpwilly
August 30, 2007, 01:49 AM
Yes there is a limit (I carry 21rnds of 45 ACP) and there comes a point were you are just plain SOL. Often times the BG's have the upper hand unless you see it comming an armed defence may be too little too late! Worrying about it isn't going to change anything.

Bullet
August 30, 2007, 04:07 AM
First, I don’t go to places where I know I should carry a gun (bad parts of town) but I also realize that there is no place that is totally safe. So I try to consider the possibilities of what might happen but I also realize that I won’t always be prepared ahead of time. If the time every comes that I have to defend my family or myself I hope I can make the right choices for our survival. I won’t be a VICTIM if I can help it.

brashboy
We hired an attorney famed for such things, and she made it go away. But get this: the State of Colorado was a bit concerned about the constitutionality of the statute, knew it would be challenged by a strong attorney and didn't want a test case to be one with wobbly facts, so the charges were dismissed.
That's a lot of bullsh*t and over $3K in legal fees. But someone who couldn't afford that attorney, it could have had a different result.

I've seen things over the years absolutely transformed into something else by the time it hit the courtroom, where the BG if he survived, has been cleaned up, put in a suit, given a haircut and his tats are not showing.

As an attorney, I've heard a lot of guys over the years go from very assured tough talk to crying and shaking jags as they realize they could wind up in the old gray rock college. And it happens to good people, not just jerks.

What a ****ed up system we have today, probably thanks to lawyers and bleeding hearts. Also nice to see you need money to get justice.

Daemon688
August 30, 2007, 10:33 AM
Well, everyday I carry A P329 with an extra mag and a P3AT as a BUG. All I know is this, if those don't get me out of trouble I'm in some deep doo doo. If someone really sucked up all those .40 and .380 rounds and still came after me, then the only weapon I should have been carrying at the time would be a rifle.

Or maybe this is a good reason why we should all have machine pistols. :neener:

dstorm1911
August 30, 2007, 10:50 AM
Brashboy, your example is one of the reasons I live in ARIZONA, your legally covered as we would rather have a murder or assault prevented by the visible appearance of a gun than have to deal with the crime, ya CAN NOT legally use deadly force to protect property in AZ but you can threaten the use of deadly force however in a case involving violence against a person your can legally USE that deadly force..

Here in Tucson a couple years ago a man was jogging in the early morning before it got hot, he was confronted by 2 knife wielding juveniles threatening to rob him he got his .32 outa his fanny pack and shot and killed one of em the police found the other shortly afterwards, the man was not charged as under AZ law he was fully within his rights to use that deadly force......

Before we moved out here we lived in town, one of our neighbors was a career criminal and drug addict him and his brothers were notorious and had been since they were teenagers now in their mid 40s they never messed with my place though (don't cr@p where ya live idea) my yard was fully fenced and several times my two Chows would start growling in the wee hours I'd respond with .45 or 12 gauge usually to find officers trying to sneak up on my neighbor to serve a warrant usually one of em would end up lookin down the bore of the 12 gauge as soon as I'Ded as officer and not a drug addict the barrel would get lowered they'd just wave me to go inside.......

KIWIBIRD1, unfortunatly I've had to test my response to such a threat more than just one time..........2 to the chest 1 to the face was that response no guessing or wondering what I would do......


How some of you can deal with living in states that don't allow you the right to protect yourself or your family just amazes the cr@p outa me I simply couldn't tolerate it, to be threatened with prison, civil suits etc etc etc... thats just insane

brashboy
August 30, 2007, 11:53 AM
Folks, I'm not saying that carrying is bad, or that we should never show, pull or use a piece. Guns can take things in a different and not necessarily better or smarter direction, and those who carry have to be aware of that. This thread indicates that some people have what seem like one-dimensional views of potentially troublesome situations: bad guy attacks, we draw and shoot. But you may not have a cut and dried situation like that. If a robbery or such occurs, the threat or use of force is justified. But the event may be far more subtle than that and open to differing interpretations.

DStorm, it ain't what we do. It's what the cops and/or DA think we did. And it's what a jury can be convinced that we did. They're human and they have agendas and opinions like all of us. And what is the ground truth and the context? Is the BG surviving to give testimony against you? Were there other witnesses - and who are they? If you pull a gun an an opera attended by a high proportion of antigunners, for example, don't be surprised if YOU turn out to be the BG.

Bullet, when in human history has it not taken money to get justice? I'll bet we're more likely to get justice right here in the USofA than just about anywhere, anytime in history - across the board. Yet there is not much justice, even here. When my son showed the gun, the cops were sympathetic, wanting to know why his 15-year old girlfriend had a new 25-year old boyfriend, why they were at my home in the first place, why there were trying to lure my son into their clutches, etc. The cops were able to confirm that those people had told others they were going to "get" my son. But the DA's office was very nasty and not much interested in the facts, only the show. They pulled up hard only when they saw who our lawyer was, because they knew it just went to a higher level. If I couldn't have afforded this lawyer, or only Legal Aid, would the same result have been obtained? I agree with you that it sucks, but that is the way it usually works. I also had a long talk with my son about showing people a gun. He should have stayed in the house and called me, or called the police. This isn't the best example, I know, but does illustrate the point.

I've seen people have to mortgage their houses to the hilt and sell assets to pay lawyers and cover other costs like expert witnesses. Carrying a gun is a significant act for what it can lead to.

IMTHDUKE
August 30, 2007, 09:40 PM
Uh....Didn't they ask these same questions at the Alamo?

Don't think they had enough ammo for the number of BGs.

Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you. But didn't they put up a whale of a fight. You do remember that don't ye? Well, remember the Alamo!

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