Some possible help in getting Nationwide Concealed Carry Permits.


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Hugo
August 25, 2007, 06:29 PM
http://www.nccusl.org
National Conference of Commissioners of Uniform State Laws (what a mouth full!)

Logically, Concealed Carry Permits should be like a states drivers license, good in all 50 states and total reciprocity. It's the same fraking country isn't it? I think this group might be a way to get some common sense into, at the very least, Concealed Carry Permits for pistols. Hopefully eventually fix the rest of the insane mess of regulations and contemptible laws foolish politicians have made, not just firearms related. Stop the madness and fix the laws. Probably help with our national deficit too since backed up courts costs everyone.

This seems to be a good, well established group thats also trying to get organ donation laws straightened out and uniform through all 50 states. (by the way, help save a life and register yourself! www.organdonation.org )

Not sure if this group is anti or pro firearms rights but it's worth a shot.

Ladies and Gentlemen, (and the NRA, please! ) start your emails, letters, and phone calls.
http://www.nccusl.org

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AntiqueCollector
August 25, 2007, 09:29 PM
Problem with this idea is people like me in a state that doesn't require permits, or those in open carry states who only open carry and don't get CC permits.

Regolith
August 25, 2007, 10:25 PM
Antique: If they do it right, states that didn't require permits wouldn't be affected one way or the other. Although, Alaska does issue permits so that its citizens can CC in other states that have reciprocity and so they can bypass the NICS check when they buy a firearm.



Personally, I'd rather see more states follow Alaska's example, though. Mostly because CCP's, while nicer than not being able to carry at all, are a form of registration.

IA_farmboy
August 25, 2007, 11:51 PM
Personally, I'd rather see more states follow Alaska's example, though. Mostly because CCP's, while nicer than not being able to carry at all, are a form of registration.

Agreed. No one should need a permit to exercise a right that is protected by the Constitution.

Take this one step at a time though.
Get states that don't offer CCP to offer them.
Get your state to recognize all other state's CCPs.
Get your state to offer CCPs on a "shall issue" basis.
Get your state to allow open carry without a permit.
Get your state to allow concealed carry without a permit.

We are simply asking for our rights back that we lost 70 years ago.

Bartholomew Roberts
August 26, 2007, 12:03 AM
Moved thread to Activism so people can take action on it.

Telperion
August 26, 2007, 12:52 AM
This group has a had a bit of a questionable past when it comes to 2A and RKBA issues. They authored the Uniform Machine Gun Act, which later partially inspired the NFA, the Uniform Pistol Act of 1940, which was based on a may-issue license model. It appears they are not too interested in the area anymore due to the controversy.

Bret4207
August 26, 2007, 10:08 AM
There is currently a bill to allow reciprocal carry among all 50 states in Congress. It addresses the no permit states too I think. Check the stopguncontrol thread. BTW- I like the timeline in the post above. Mirrors my thoughts exactly.

Hugo
August 26, 2007, 10:12 AM
Yeah one step at a time is the way to get any big project done. Nice timeline.

As to the groups past, perhaps they've changed their minds and world view by now? I doubt very much they have any employees now who were around in the 1940's. I bet if you carefully remind them that Self-Defense is a critical area of the law and needs to be uniform in all 50 states, and that it can save people from injuries that could require organ transplant.... Might be enough to make them see the light.

Since they're located in Chicago, pointing out Chicago's high crime rate and messy firearm laws vs other nearby states (like Utah) might help. Remind them that the days of Al Capone and the gangsters shooting up the streets of Chicago are gone and Capone is dead.

IA_farmboy
August 26, 2007, 03:05 PM
There is currently a bill to allow reciprocal carry among all 50 states in Congress. It addresses the no permit states too I think. Check the stopguncontrol thread. BTW- I like the timeline in the post above. Mirrors my thoughts exactly.

I would rather the US Congress be left out of this process. What they give they can take away. Also, their cooperation is unnecessary, it only needs to concern the many state governments. Besides, having the US Congress mandate that all states must honor other state's CCP would be a serious blow to state rights. It does not concern interstate commerce or travel. There are already laws on the books that allow transport of firearms between states, its just that they are quite restrictive. I think the federal government has already taken too many of the rights of the people and the states, and has gone too far in influencing the way we live our lives.

Hugo
August 27, 2007, 11:59 PM
True. A couple more percentage points to the states rights column would help even things out in some ways.

Zundfolge
August 28, 2007, 12:17 AM
Logically, Concealed Carry Permits should be like a states drivers license, good in all 50 states and total reciprocity.
Yes, that sounds nice if you say it fast, but think about the requirements for a minute.

Requirements for drivers licenses are almost universal. You must be 16, take a written and driving test. Driving laws are pretty close to the same everywhere (with minor differences in things like right hand turns on red lights).

Yet when you look at CCW you have massive differences from state to state .... everything from CCW with no license required to no CCW allowed at all.

If we normalized CCW laws across all the states, you'd likely see Vermont and Alaska lose "permit free" CCW, and we'd probably end up with national "May Issue" CCW because New York, New Jersey, California and Illinois would have way too much say in the way the laws are written.

IA_farmboy
August 28, 2007, 03:02 AM
If we normalized CCW laws across all the states, you'd likely see Vermont and Alaska lose "permit free" CCW, and we'd probably end up with national "May Issue" CCW because New York, New Jersey, California and Illinois would have way too much say in the way the laws are written.

I disagree. I don't think that Vermont and Alaska would lose their ability to allow people within their borders to carry a concealed weapon without a permit.

Let's take the driver license analogy. Most states recognize three classes of driver license. Class A permits use of all vehicles, including articulated (AKA semis, or tractor-trailer). Class B permits commercial use of large, unarticulated, vehicles. Class C is for non-commercial use of small to medium sized vehicles. However, as a citizen of Iowa with a Class C license I am allowed to operate an articulated vehicle under certain restrictions. The primary restriction is I must remain within the borders of Iowa since no bordering state will permit me to operate that vehicle on their roads.

Let's assume for a moment that the many states agree on certain requirements for a concealed weapons permit. Let's assume those requirements are that one must be 21 years of age, must pass a NICS check, and must take a test on weapon safety. Assume Vermont offers such a permit that meets those requirements. Assume Vermont does not require that license to carry concealed weapons inside their borders.

Just like me driving a semi through Iowa that person in Vermont is free to carry a weapon as long as it is within the borders of the state. Once that person steps into New York, which for the sake of argument requires a license, then that person should have a concealed weapons permit from Vermont.

Just like how a driver license permits a lowest common denominator in what is allowed so would the proposed concealed carry permit. A state is free to choose to offer freedoms above what is allowed by that license but may not place any more restriction on a license other than what that license already has from the issuing authority.

Taking the driving analogy further let's assume there is a state that does not require a license to drive on public roads, we'll call that state "Bob". Since I have an Iowa driver license that is recognized by all states I am free to travel into and out of Bob as I wish, regardless of which states it borders. However, the citizens of Bob would be confined to drive within that state unless the Bobian government offered a license that was recognized by its neighbors. So, while many drivers within the state of Bob have a license not all do. If they wish to travel to another state they need to either get a Bobian driver license, or take the bus. I imagine many would choose to get a license. The Bobian government, because of the reciprocity clause, would be required to offer those licenses or find itself in trouble with the feds.

It seems to me that if there was some kind of standard set for the minimum requirements for a concealed weapon permit then it would likely force a state (or district :neener: ) to at least offer a license. It would be difficult to keep residents from getting a license if visitors are legally free to carry using the privileges granted by the license offered by their home government.

I don't think that requirements of reciprocity would lower the bar on licensing but raise it. What it could do is kill reciprocity on non-resident permits as a state is now compelled to offer a permit. Since all states are compelled to offer a license (may-issue or shall-issue) there is little legal or practical reason to offer a non-resident permit, or at least one that is recognized anywhere other than the issuing state.

What do you think would happen if a person that lived in (for argument's sake) shall issue states like Maryland or Virginia could legally carry within DC after getting a license from their home state? Do you think that the residents of DC would be in any way pleased that their own rights continued to be restricted? It is quite possible that DC would remain with a no-issue policy but I don't think it would last very long.

What I do think is that a universal reciprocity on concealed weapon permits will be difficult to do as long as such reciprocity is forced upon a state. It would be voted down in Congress or legally challenged in the courts. I would much rather see the individual states come to an agreement on their own than have it forced upon them by the federal government. Things would go much more peacefully that way.

Linda
August 28, 2007, 08:33 AM
Given what we have been handed with the current Congress and Senate, I think it's best left alone until we don't have an overwhelming anti gun government in place. I can see where they would destroy what we currently have.

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