armor piercing bullets


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Bezoar
August 26, 2007, 03:05 PM
The fed says citizens not to have armor piercing ammo, But the major companies still sell the "green tip" penetrator round in 223 nato.

Most of us would agree that a close range hit with 308 nato fmj does penetrate alot of metal sheeting youd find in a house or car. why is that legal to own?

And why are we allowed to have machined BRONZE bullets for muzzleloaders? Bronze was the best anti armor slug developed for ww1 machineguns.

Im just really curious here.

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GunTech
August 26, 2007, 03:28 PM
Nor armor piercing handgun rounds.

LAR-15
August 26, 2007, 03:33 PM
Ummmmmmmm the M855 5.56 MM ROUND IS NOT ARMOR PIERCING!

I wish people would quit thinking it was designed to penetrate armor.

Cannonball888
August 26, 2007, 03:38 PM
As mentioned above green-tip is NOT armour peircing. Black-tipped is, like the 30.06 AP or the 7.62x25 AP (handgun round) my brother-in-law has in Ukraine. Only handgun AP is illegal here.

LAR-15
August 26, 2007, 03:54 PM
And the US military has developed actual AP 5.56 rounds.

M855/SS109 rounds are ball rounds

Bad Penny 03
August 26, 2007, 04:01 PM
SS109 = "enhanced penetration"

I LIKE IT!
August 26, 2007, 04:06 PM
Thats funny i can recall buying some(online) in 762x39(black tip)

If I can get it I will. FTW

LAR-15
August 26, 2007, 04:09 PM
It still isn't designed as a true armor piercing round.

Its considered ball ammunition by virtually everyone

Sunray
August 26, 2007, 04:32 PM
"...metal sheeting..." That isn't armour. A .22 will penetrate sheet metal.
"...fed says citizens not to have armor piercing ammo..." You can't have 7.62 NATO AP. .30-06 AP is fine for some strange reason. It's on the ATF site.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm

Regolith
August 26, 2007, 05:21 PM
Sunray....its because somebody figured it'd be cool to make a pistol in .308. Once it could be used in a pistol, 7.62x51 and .308 AP rounds were nixed.

tulsamal
August 26, 2007, 11:10 PM
You can't have 7.62 NATO AP. .30-06 AP is fine for some strange reason. It's on the ATF site.

ATF originally exempted the 30/06 M2 AP because there was literally thousands of tons of it for sale. Including from DCM. Every gun club shot it at matches because it was so cheap. Now comes the trickier part. There is nothing illegal _at all_ with using AP bullets to reload your own AP ammo for 7.62 NATO. There is lots of pulled AP bullets out there. (Although a lot less than there used to be.) It is perfectly legal (with the Feds anyway) to reload those bullets into another rifle that uses .308" ammo. You can reload it, shoot it, possess it. Just don't take loaded rounds to a gunshow and try to sell it! Legal to sell the pulled bullets. Not legal to sell it reloaded into 7.62 NATO ammo.

As always, I don't make the laws, I just try to explain them!

Gregg

tulsamal
August 26, 2007, 11:14 PM
Sunray....its because somebody figured it'd be cool to make a pistol in .308. Once it could be used in a pistol, 7.62x51 and .308 AP rounds were nixed.

That was the excuse used to stop importation of Chinese 7.62x39 AP. I've never heard that given as a reason for the NATO round. Maybe it could be used to stop _importation_ of any AP NATO round. But you can buy an Encore handgun right now in 30/06 and that hasn't caused the ATF to try to change the rules.

Gregg

McKnife
August 27, 2007, 02:08 AM
I have Armor Piercing 7.62x54R !!!! about 1000 rounds of it....silver tip

Sharps-shooter
August 27, 2007, 04:25 AM
what kind of armor (or armour) are we talking about? Body armor? IIa? Rifle plates? tank armor? Jousting armor? I think the term armor piercing is just about useless until you know what kind of armor we're trying to pierce.

General Geoff
August 27, 2007, 06:14 AM
The only armour it's piercing is the lawmakers' egos.

Geno
August 27, 2007, 06:17 AM
Good point. I saw an add at Ammo to Go for AP 12 gauge, claiming the steel portion of the slug could penetrate 1/4" of steel. Seems to me that isn't much.

LawBot5000
August 27, 2007, 09:54 AM
5.56x45 and 7.62x51 are both exempt from the law against armor piercing ammo. You can even make a pistol and shoot both calibers. There is a specific exemption for them after the generic definition of armor piercing (specifying jacket and core materials, etc).

It has nothing to do with real armor piercing ability. Steel core 7.62x39 wasn't AP either but it matches the LEGAL definition which is all that matters when you are discussing whether something is legal.

benEzra
August 27, 2007, 10:24 AM
The fed says citizens not to have armor piercing ammo, But the major companies still sell the "green tip" penetrator round in 223 nato.
As others have mentioned, green tip is not AP; it actually penetrates less at close range than regular M193 55gr FMJ. It has better penetration at 600 yards than M193, but not anything approaching tungsten-core AP.

Most of us would agree that a close range hit with 308 nato fmj does penetrate alot of metal sheeting youd find in a house or car. why is that legal to own?

And why are we allowed to have machined BRONZE bullets for muzzleloaders? Bronze was the best anti armor slug developed for ww1 machineguns.
The Federal AP ban covers only handgun calibers, .223/5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, and .308/7.62x51mm. It bans bullets for those calibers made of very hard materials that would give them AP-level penetration.

Lead-core .308 FMJ is not in the same penetration class as tungsten-core 7.62x51.

Muzzleloader bullets, .30-06, etc. are not covered because they are not .223/5.56x45, 7.62x39, or .308/7.62x51.

5.56x45 and 7.62x51 are both exempt from the law against armor piercing ammo. You can even make a pistol and shoot both calibers. There is a specific exemption for them after the generic definition of armor piercing (specifying jacket and core materials, etc).

It has nothing to do with real armor piercing ability. Steel core 7.62x39 wasn't AP either but it matches the LEGAL definition which is all that matters when you are discussing whether something is legal.
They're not exempt (they are two of the three rifle calibers the law covers); it's just that the ban is based solely on bullet construction. Practically all centerfire rifles will penetrate Kevlar body armor like Saran Wrap, so any law that banned all ammunition that will penetrate armor would ban all centerfire rifles. Which is, IMHO, why the anti's keep trying to pass a performance-based standard, to give the AG power to ban any rifle caliber he/she wishes.

Sunray
August 27, 2007, 10:33 AM
"...1/4" of steel...that isn't much..." It's not. Mind you, that 1/4" steel plate isn't necessarily hardened either. Marketing is a wonderful thing.

coat4gun
August 27, 2007, 12:53 PM
Federal law relating to Armor Piercing ammo is in Title 18 Chapter 44 sections 921 and 922, I believe that while most of todays ammunition could be used in a handgun.. hence meeting the following test given it has the penetrator core, Federal law only restricts manufacture or import. Your State Law many vary from this.


Quote:
921(17)(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means -
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a
handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of
tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber
designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a
weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the
projectile.

Meeting the definition of AP ammunition only restricts the "manufacture or import" of said ammunition. It does not restrict the sale (as long as the seller is not the manufacturer), nor does it disallow the ownership or purchase of AP ammunition.

Quote:
922(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing
ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to -
(A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the
use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or
any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision
thereof;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of
exportation; and
(C) any manufacture or importation for the purposes of
testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General;

922(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor
piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply
to -
(A) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of
such ammunition for use of the United States or any department
or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or
political subdivision thereof;
(B) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of
such ammunition for the purpose of exportation;
(C) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of
such ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimenting
authorized by the Attorney General; and

The definitions of Manufacturer and importer are as follows... Manufacture does not include reloading for personal use by definition.

Quote:
921(9) The term "importer" means any person engaged in the business
of importing or bringing firearms or ammunition into the United
States for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term "licensed
importer" means any such person licensed under the provisions of
this chapter.
Quote:
921(10) The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the
business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of
sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means
any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter

RoadkingLarry
August 27, 2007, 06:37 PM
Sometimes you have to watch out for the term armor piercing. Gotta define armor. I can load a cast lead bullet in my Marlin .30-30 and punch a hole clean through 1/4" mild steel plate from 50 yds. what do you suppose that would do for body armor?Do we call that cast bullet round of .30-30 AP? because it sure as heck would penetrate police body armor rated for pistol.

geekWithA.45
August 27, 2007, 06:42 PM
BTW, IIRC, the armor in question for the federal prohibition wasn't personally worn armor, it was armor as in tank/truck/APC.

LAR-15
August 27, 2007, 10:50 PM
it was BODY ARMOR.

The Federal restrictions on armor piercing ammunition were passed in 1986 and 1994.

benEzra
August 28, 2007, 12:38 AM
Legislative history of the 1986 ban on armor-piercing handgun ammunition:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html

The law was extended to cover .223/5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, and .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm by a BATFE administrative decision in early 1994, precipitated by (or ad hoc justified by) the Olympic Arms fiasco.

Double Naught Spy
August 28, 2007, 10:02 AM
it was BODY ARMOR.

The Federal restrictions on armor piercing ammunition were passed in 1986 and 1994.

The laws may have been passed then, but the laws don't define "armor" in armor piercing ammunition, just the makeup of the bullets. Lots of rounds will penetrate body armor, even rounds that are not AP. It simply depends on the armor type, diameter, velocity, shape, and makeup of the bullet, etc. A .44 Magnum 240 gr. HSP (1320 FPS) will penetrate flak, IIa, and Level II armor, but is not considered armor piercing. Level IIa and II are the most common rating soft body armors sold for concealable armor such as worn by cops, security folks, and some non-LEOs.

Neo-Luddite
August 28, 2007, 05:03 PM
The ss 109 and .30/06 m2ap have been specifically recognized as sporting rounds by ATF ruling.

This matters little except in such places that have passed state bans on AP (or, my favorite, 'metal piercing'-whatever that might be-- here in IL) but allowed that types of ammo specifically listed as sporting by ATF were just plain OK anyhow. Which means that, in the interest of logic, m2AP (the gold-standard for US AP < .50 BMG) is legal here in Illinois--but everything else is forbidden.

Any ammo restrictions are a slippery slope--never mind pointless--and watch out as handloaders are the next target of opportunity.

LAR-15
August 28, 2007, 05:19 PM
The laws deal with BODY ARMOR worn by police.

gezzer
August 29, 2007, 11:38 PM
And why are we allowed to have machined BRONZE bullets for muzzleloaders? Bronze was the best anti armor slug developed for ww1 machineguns.


What Bronze, ML are copper not bronze, do some research.

Double Naught Spy
August 30, 2007, 09:08 AM
The laws deal with BODY ARMOR worn by police.

Okay, please post the laws that state they pertain to BODY ARMOR worn by the police. As far as I can ascertain, there is no mention in the law of what consistutes "armor" in the laws on "armor piercing" handgun ammunition.

jkingrph
August 30, 2007, 10:32 AM
Armor plate is different from steel plate ie sheet steel. I punched a hole through 1/2" steel plate using a 400Gr Barnes HP all copper bullet from a 458Win mag at about 40 yards. It made a clean hole and actually transfered the rifling pattern from the rifle bore to the hole in the steel plate.

jkingrph
August 30, 2007, 10:40 AM
Armor plate is different from steel plate ie sheet steel. I punched a hole through 1/2" steel plate using a 400Gr Barnes HP all copper bullet from a 458Win mag at about 40 yards. It made a clean hole and actually transfered the rifling pattern from the rifle bore to the hole in the steel plate.

Please excuse double post

coat4gun
January 17, 2008, 02:05 PM
Federal law relating to Armor Piercing ammo is in Title 18 Chapter 44 sections 921 and 922, I believe that while most of todays ammunition could be used in a handgun.. hence meeting the following test given it has the penetrator core, Federal law only restricts manufacture or import. Your State Law many vary from this.
For instance, beyond federal law, Pa only restricts use of AP ammunition in the commission of a crime.


921(17)(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means -
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a
handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of
tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber
designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a
weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the
projectile.

Meeting the definition of AP ammunition only restricts the "manufacture or import" of said ammunition. It does not restrict the sale (as long as the seller is not the manufacturer), nor does it disallow the ownership or purchase of AP ammunition.

922(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing
ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to -
(A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the
use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or
any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision
thereof;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of
exportation; and
(C) any manufacture or importation for the purposes of
testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General;
Quote:
922(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor
piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply
to -
(A) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of
such ammunition for use of the United States or any department
or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or
political subdivision thereof;
(B) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of
such ammunition for the purpose of exportation;
(C) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of
such ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimenting
authorized by the Attorney General; and

The definitions of Manufacturer and importer are as follows... Manufacture does not include reloading for personal use by definition.

921(9) The term "importer" means any person engaged in the business
of importing or bringing firearms or ammunition into the United
States for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term "licensed
importer" means any such person licensed under the provisions of
this chapter.

921(10) The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the
business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of
sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means
any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter

Funderb
January 17, 2008, 02:17 PM
they don't want you to have AP pistol ammo, like the fiveseven, because they are afraid you will go on a cop killing rampage.
that's why fiveseven ammo is so expensive too, extreme limitations on import. Even the ball ammo peirces level 2 vests easily.

kludge
January 17, 2008, 03:35 PM
There is nothing illegal _at all_ with using AP bullets to reload your own AP ammo for 7.62 NATO.

Source?

TexasRifleman
January 17, 2008, 03:48 PM
Source?

2 posts above yours....

921(10) The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the
business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of
sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means
any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter

Personal use is not manufacturing.

Now, 7.62x51 comes under an additional area, in addition to the whole "can be fired from a handgun" thing.

7.62x51 is named specifically as AP in the following case:

7.62mm NATO AP (Identified by black coloring in the bullet tip. This ammunition is used by various NATO countries. The U.S. military designation is M61 AP)
7.62mm NATO SLAP (identified by projectile having a plastic sabot around a hard penetrator. The penetrator protrudes above the sabot and is similar in appearance to a Remington accelerator cartridge)

And from the same document:

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING CARTRIDGES HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION:
5.56MM (.223) SS109 and M855 Ammunition, Identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.
U.S. .30-06 M2 AP, Identified by a black coating on the projectile tip.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm

TexasRifleman
January 17, 2008, 03:54 PM
that's why fiveseven ammo is so expensive too, extreme limitations on import

There are no limitations on the import of 5.7x28 SS195 or S197. In fact it's been cheaper than 5.56 lately.

It remains expensive for the most part because FN won't let anyone else make it, so there's no competition.

highorder
January 17, 2008, 04:17 PM
I have Armor Piercing 7.62x54R !!!! about 1000 rounds of it....silver tip

you might want to rethink the "armor piercing" statement. Eastern Bloc countries were very liberal with the projectile markings. You can ID your ammo here:

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo.htm

CWL
January 17, 2008, 05:14 PM
The purpose of the carbide tip in the 5.56mm NATO SS109 round is to facilitate spin balance while in flight and to facilitate yawing and fragmentation once inside the target. Losing stability after penetration into a human-sizd target, the bullet breaks apart where the carbide tip and lead base meet. This results in massive tissue damage.

It was NOT developed as an AP round.

telecaster1981
January 17, 2008, 06:40 PM
It's good to know that M2AP is ok...

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