.32ACP NAA Guardian, Kel-tec P3AT or Kahr PM9 for pocket carry


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chaim
August 26, 2007, 03:07 PM
I'm not asking "if everything else is equal...", I'm asking based on my situation below...

I currently have an NAA Guardian .32ACP. I'd prefer the Kel-tec P32, but it isn't available in MD. It is reliable and a decent gun, but it is a little heavy for the caliber (it weighs about the same as my .38spl S&W 442). I find recoil is no problem in this gun, it is almost fun to shoot.

Apparently, MD finally put the P3AT on the approved list, and some distributors occasionally carry it with the fired shell casing. I've found one local store that carries it ($299). It is smaller and lighter than my Guardian and in a more potent caliber. However, I hear recoil can be quite a handful in this gun, and there are occasional quality issues. If I could get the P32 (it isn't MD legal) I'd probably buy it in a heartbeat (probably trading the Guardian) but I'm less sure with the P3AT.

Another option is wait until I can afford a Kahr PM9. Eventually, it is the way I want to go anyway. While, I can't afford it right now, and other guns will probably take priority before I buy it, I do have other options that will work in the meantime. Also, it is just a tad large for pocket carry so it is possible that even after I buy it I'll still need the Guardian or Kel-tec as it may not always be suitable for my pockets. Since I have the Guardian and the 442 for pocket carry, there is no real reason to hurry. However, if I wait, it will probably be a couple years before I pick up this gun.

I have a decent pocket gun in the .32ACP Guardian, it is reliable, recoil isn't bad. The caliber is pretty marginal and accuracy is only good at close range SD ranges though since the sights are nearly non-existant. One option is stay with that.

The P3AT would give me a better round, but recoil may be a problem and I don't know what my gun's reliability would be since I don't yet have one. Cost isn't bad, I could buy it outright and keep the Guardian until it proved itself, or I could make it even easier and trade the Guardian.

I'd love the Kahr. I will eventually buy one, but it will be a few years. But it may be a tad too big to always work in this role.

So, should I wait on the Kahr and keep the Guardian for now, get the P3AT, or just forget the Kahr and stick with the Guardian (or get the P3AT) as my perminent solution to the pocket gun niche (when I want more, I do have my larger S&W 442 snub).

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grimjaw
August 26, 2007, 03:32 PM
Just my opinions.

I could never warm up to the Guardian triggers, long and HEAVY. I have no personal experience shooting them, but they did seem a little weighty for the caliber.

For a long time I thought about the P3AT. It was very light, compact, and solved all my problems of being able to carry pretty much anywhere with few problems concealing it, if any. In the end, I couldn't wean myself off of 9x19.

I went with Kahr PM9. It has a bit of a bark because of the short barrel, but it controllable and comfortable for me to shoot. Maybe chalk it up to beginners luck, but my first 50 rounds out of the box left me very impressed at 10 yards. It was expensive, but less than a Rohrbaugh.

Good luck on your decision.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1387/1241470879_7005319d0c.jpg?v=0 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/grimjaw/1241470879/)

All my nines.

jm

RyanM
August 26, 2007, 04:36 PM
Is the Kahr CW9 MD-approved? You'd save $150-200 on that over a PM9, and basically have the same gun.

Babalouie
August 26, 2007, 04:51 PM
First off you must visit the KTOG.org i.e. the Kel-Tec owners group. Everything you could possibly want/need to know about Kel Tecs can be found there. You actually may have another option. The Kel-Tec PF-9 is one heck of a ccw piece. Really concealable but not really a pocket gun.

I own both a PF-9 and a P3AT. I have not shot the P3 yet but know that it has shot 50 rounds through it without any failures. I imagine the recoil will be stout but consider this...if you ever have to fire it in self defense you will be totally unaware of the recoil, sound and probably how many rounds you fired. When I have shot deer I can never remember hearing the shot or feeling any recoil. I don't like shooting my PF-9 for more than 100 rounds max...in fact my hand was bruised for three days after I shot it last time...but I don't really care since its a ccw weapon not a range gun and certainly not a competition gun. Most P3AT owners seem very happy with their weapons and after I actually shoot mine I'm looking forward to being able to carry something as stout as 380 in my front pocket.

Personally I have no interest in Kahr since the "Rev." Moon's( i.e. the moonies), son owns Kahr. Since he is a member of the "church" I imagine he supports that cult from his proceeds.

MICHAEL T
August 26, 2007, 11:47 PM
380 recoil is snapy but really not bad can do 50 rounds ok. Its not a target pistol It a SD pocket pistol. I bought one over NAA because of the NAA weight and trigger. I have never had any trouble out of mine I have now 2 of the 32's and 1 380 . Really not much in looka but serve me and wife well. Carry Corbon DPX in the 380 and Corbon HP in the 32's

Ford
August 27, 2007, 12:41 AM
There seems to be a trend lately of people claiming the PM series guns are basically junk.
I have 2 PM9's that are both reliable and accurate. I to was surprised at the accuracy from such a small pistol. I have about 500+ rounds through both of them. Not one failure.
No experience with a Guardian and only limited with a Kel-Tec P11.
I was thinking of Kel-Tec before I bought the first Kahr. If you want to spend the cash I say the Kahr hands down.

gbelleh
August 27, 2007, 10:36 AM
You can't beat the size and weight of the P-3AT, so you might as well just get the Kel-Tec. KT customer service is good, so they will make the gun work if it doesn't out of the box, and you have a back up to use if the KT needs a trip back to Florida. FWIW, I've owned 3 Kel-Tecs, and all have worked fine out of the box with no fluff & buff or home gunsmithing needed.

Green Lantern
August 27, 2007, 10:57 AM
I have no experience with the NAA or Kahr, but I LOVE my P3AT!!!

Recoil - considering that I have rather weak hand strength, I think the P3AT's rep for punishing recoil is a bit overblown - IMO. It DOES take a few mags to get used to it, but I think most shooters can handle it ok.

As for reliability - out of 200+ rounds, I've had ONE jam, and I think it was a limp wrist on my part. I didn't do the "fluff and buff" either, just a good cleaning out of the box and away I went.

BTW, the rounds I've used in mine are the Remington 88gr JHP - a decent defensive round in it's own right, from what I've heard. And I'm also running some Cor-Bon DPX through it as well - so far, not a hiccup from them.

Golddog
August 27, 2007, 11:03 AM
The CW9 is Maryland-approved. Mine was totally reliable and had a better trigger than the rest of the guns being discussed here. Recoil was insignificant with it and it weighed only 2 oz. more than the smallest polymer Kahr.

mjrodney
August 27, 2007, 11:10 AM
My own P3AT has been flawless out of the box, so I'm happy there.

And next to me at the range this weekend was a fella with a wee Kahr.

I watched him for a while, all seemed well, recoil was snappy but within reason, so I may have to try one of those too, someday.

TMann
August 28, 2007, 03:17 AM
Another happy P3AT owner here. The P3AT is now on it's "second generation", and I believe that most people are finding them to be just fine out of the box. Other than frequently cleaning and lubrication, I haven't done anything unusual to mine, and it has run superbly. The recoil is snappy, but not difficult to manage, IMHO.

TMann

CPshooter
August 28, 2007, 03:32 AM
Have you considered the Kel-Tec PF-9? It's on par with the Kahr as far as 9mm +P capabilities go..but lighter and less than half the price. People have been reporting 100% reliability along with a VERY improved DAO trigger that's 6lbs and fairly smooth. Kahr has a similar DAO pull, but it's probably a tad more refined and solid. It's dimensions might not allow you to pocket carry as well as the Kahr due to a (barely) longer slide and taller height. Like I already said though, it is still thinner and lighter for what that's worth to you..

nate.45
August 28, 2007, 04:01 AM
I have a P3AT and a PM9.

The P3AT is a good little pistol however the PM9 outclasses it in terms of power and accuracy.

The P3AT is slightly smaller and weighs half as much.

The P3AT takes lots of skill and practice to make consistent hits at 5 yds.

I shot my PM9 at 15 yds the other day and never missed the A-Zone with 124 grain +P's.

It has never malfunctioned in close to 300 rounds.

I can shoot it faster and more accurately than any snub revolver I have every owned.

Get a PM9 and you won't be disapponted.

Schwebel
August 28, 2007, 06:47 AM
Since you have a 442, I don't think you need to worry about the recoil from a P3AT. I own both and the 442 draws flesh at the range, the P3AT is just kinda of "snappy". I actually shoot it better one handed. Since you have a nice wheelie and a guardian, why not carry the 442 IWB/OWB and stuff the guardian in your pocket as a BUG. That's what I do with my 442 and P3AT. Buy yourself a fun range gun or something, skip the P3AT, or save up for the Kahr.

chaim
September 20, 2007, 10:09 PM
OK, sorry it took me so long to get back to everyone. I am a teacher (2nd year so I don't have very much from past years I can reuse) and it is the beginning of the year, so I'm putting in very long days, I am taking 2 classes myself, I am an Orthodox Jew (the fall holidays, which we're in the middle of, come one after another for a while), and I just moved. So, time is a commodity in very short supply.

The CW9 is Maryland-approved. Mine was totally reliable and had a better trigger than the rest of the guns being discussed here. Recoil was insignificant with it and it weighed only 2 oz. more than the smallest polymer Kahr.How is the CW9 on size? I thought it was the same as the P9 and a little too big for pocket carry.

Have you considered the Kel-Tec PF-9?Not really. I don't know why, but it doesn't interest me. I probably should check it out anyway- with these guns function is far more important than form. How well does it conceal in a pocket?

Since you have a 442, I don't think you need to worry about the recoil from a P3AT.Well, the 442 is bearable, but far from pleasant. When I take it out, I shoot a cylinder or two to check function and to ensure I remain familiar with its POA/POI. However, most of my snubby practice is with my all steel, 21oz, Taurus 85CH.

Since you have a nice wheelie and a guardian, why not carry the 442 IWB/OWB and stuff the guardian in your pocket as a BUG. That's what I do with my 442 and P3AT.
Well, if I did that I'd carry the 85CH IWB. It is no bigger, its extra weight is unnoticable on a belt, and it will offer much quicker and more managable follow-up shots. When in carry states I do this actually (with the 442 sometimes acting as the pocket gun, and sometimes the Guardian). However, usually when carrying IWB I go with something bigger- my SIG 229, my Taurus PT140 Millennium Pro, my S&W 65LS (though this one is rare since all I have is a cheap Uncle Mike's holster), or my S&W 1911SC (actually that one hasn't gone yet, I need to get a good holster).

Buy yourself a fun range gun or something, skip the P3AT, or save up for the Kahr.I have several for that role. Right now I'm considering either another K-frame sized revolver (either a 6" .357mag S&W or Taurus, or a 4" Taurus Tracker in .41mag) or possibly (hence this thread) a more suitable pocket gun.

Glockafella
September 20, 2007, 11:16 PM
try the kel tec...its a cheap mistake if u hate it...I doubt u will however.

If u have the extra cash...and really like a kahr...get one.

I had similar thoughts when looking for a CCW piece and luckily I stumbled upon a Kel Tec PF9 that I love...take your time and look around...feel. look. fire. everything u can before chosing a CCW piece.

Clipper
September 20, 2007, 11:38 PM
The KT .380 will pocket carry in just about anything, and if you can shoot worth beans, it's quite accurate. I can shoot those little 12oz. Ice Mountain bottles at 15 yards fairly easily with mine. My PF-9 is no problem in the front pocket of my cargo pants, is lighter loaded with 8 rounds of 9mm than most lightweight snubbies weigh empty, is only about an inch wide, shoots 1.5" groups at 7 yards and is a fantastic value. It has been flawless from day one, and has pretty much retired my P3AT to safe queen status.

NCHornet
September 21, 2007, 11:11 AM
Let me mention a few things that haven't been said. The difference between the 32acp and 380 acp out of such a small barrell as the Guardian or P3AT is very minimal. I have two Guardians, one gutter sniped 32 and a 380. I could bring myself to buy a gun that I have to work on to make it reliable. The finish on the KelTecs is terrible. I'm not expecting a mirrored blue job on a $250 pistol but I surely don't expect burrs either!! I hear a lot of folks complain about the weight of the Guardians, but this extra weight goes a long way in controlling recoil, especially out of the 380 round. If you wear blue jeans this weight is not noticeable, and even is dress slacks the guns don't weigh down my pants. Although I don't wear ghetto pants, I wear proper fitting pants. I looked at the KelTecs many times I they just weren't for me, but that's me, others love them and have made them reliable and that is great. I really don't think you are going to gain much ballistically by going to a 380 round out of a pocket gun, and I think the extra weight of the Guardian would be greatly missed. From what I have read and seen personally the PM9 is a much higher quality gun, but a bit large for pocket carry. I found the same thing when I first bought my Sig P232.
Good Luck, in the end you need to do what you feel is best and not what somebody on a forum thinks is best.

Glockafella
September 21, 2007, 12:36 PM
I was the same way...I thought thoughs Kel Tecs were cheap pieces of crap...they are cheap and ruff as hell, but I am happy as hell with mine for 280 bucks. After a flawless break in I am proud to carry a Kel Tec. My friends always tell me how crappy of a gun it is...they havent shot it or carried it. the PF9 isnt enjoyable to shot by any means but its a joy to carry for me personally.

MCgunner
September 21, 2007, 12:49 PM
The Kel-Tec PF-9 is one heck of a ccw piece. Really concealable but not really a pocket gun.

News to me. I pocket a P11 all the time. I know folks that pocket an SP101! The PF9 is only 12 ounces, easily pocketable.

I want a P3AT myself and it's top of my list of next gun to get. I don't think it'll recoil any worse than my P11 with +Ps or my SP101 with full house 140 grain .357 magnum JHPs, both of which I carry now. I cannot fathom a .380 with much recoil. I know the gun is light, but grow some cojones. :D

critter
September 21, 2007, 01:06 PM
I think you are well armed with the Guardian .32 acp. Mine is completely reliable but most of all, I can carry it anywhere no matter what I wear. In all cases, the true pocket guns are all kinda wimpy and if you need them, you will be looking for a 'shoot to slidelock' situation anyway.

Keep carrying the .32 until you can get your 9mm. It will save you some money, you will be protected, BUT, on the other hand, you don't get to buy two new guns!

mavracer
September 21, 2007, 01:20 PM
Well, the 442 is bearable, but far from pleasant
have you looked at crimson trace lg405,they are the boot grip with a pad right where you need it.they are a godsend makes 50 round sessions easy.I actually put it down because its hot not cause my hand hurts.

Anarchocapitalist
September 21, 2007, 04:33 PM
I'd prefer the Kel-tec P32, but it isn't available in MD. It is reliable and a decent gun, but it is a little heavy for the caliber (it weighs about the same as my .38spl S&W 442).

I've had a P32, and it was a nice gun. I didn't find it heavy at all for pocket carry, and I've had a 642 also. Overall, the Kel-Tec is certainly easier to carry for me.

I would note that I did have rim-lock issues with the .32 ACP. This is a cartridge problem. I sold my P-32 because of the caliber, not the gun.

However, I hear recoil can be quite a handful in this gun, and there are occasional quality issues. If I could get the P32 (it isn't MD legal) I'd probably buy it in a heartbeat (probably trading the Guardian) but I'm less sure with the P3AT.

I did get the P3AT over the P32. You get a 50% increase in energy. That is nothing to sneeze at. There is a little more recoil, but certainly nothing painful. Its worth noting here that the Kel-Tecs are LOCKED BREECH guns, and will have less recoil all things being the same than blowback pistol or revolver. It has less recoil than my 642 did. That thing stung my hand when I shot it. I can shoot 50 rounds from the P3AT without pain.

So, should I wait on the Kahr and keep the Guardian for now, get the P3AT, or just forget the Kahr and stick with the Guardian (or get the P3AT) as my perminent solution to the pocket gun niche (when I want more, I do have my larger S&W 442 snub).

My wife has a PM-9. Its fine for what it is, but its bigger and heavier than the P3AT. Its NOT a pocket gun. The P3AT will be your everywhere gun. I certainly wouldn't substitute a 442 for it. If I felt the need for more firepower, I'd be doing a hi-cap 9mm or a .45. Because of its size and convenience, my P3AT is my carry weapon 98% of the time.

grimjaw
September 21, 2007, 04:57 PM
My wife has a PM-9. Its fine for what it is, but its bigger and heavier than the P3AT. Its NOT a pocket gun.

I agree with this. Considering that you're also going to want to use a pocket holster, you need really big pockets to stow a PM9, such as cargo pants pockets or a large jacket pocket.

jm

mavracer
September 21, 2007, 05:24 PM
You get a 50% increase in energy.
I'm not sure I see 50%
Fiocchi
.32 Auto (7.65mm) 60 JHP 1,200 FPS 190 FT.LB.
.380 Auto 90 JHP 1,030 FPS 210 FT.LB.
Sellier n Bellot
.32 Auto 73 FMJ 1,043 FPS 177 FT.LB.
.380 ACP 92 FMJ 955 FPS 187 FT.LB.

I would note that I did have rim-lock issues with the .32 ACP. This is a cartridge problem. I sold my P-32 because of the caliber, not the gun.
were you using hollow points without the kit Keltec makes for the magazine's,
the kit elimanates rim lock with the shorter hollow points.I'm not trying to start a caliber war I agree the .380 is a little more powerful, just tired of .32 bashing. our american ammo co. load it so light.and rimlock is easily controled I've shot thousands of .32 acp and never experianced it.
I would not trade my ultra reliable seecamp or reliable and accurate walther pp for .380s.and I'll give the OP the same advice.Get some fiocchi or S+B for your .32 and save you money for somthing else.

chaim
September 22, 2007, 10:43 PM
Doesn't seem to be too many votes to stick with the NAA Guardian. I'm wondering why. Are you guys just helping me justify (to myself) the purchase of another gun even if I don't really need it (I also notice few if any "trade the Guardian" votes)? Do you guys really think the P3AT is that much of a better choice?

I'm still torn. Keep the Guardian (maybe get the Gutter Snipe treatment at the factory) and get another K-frame sized revolver (probably the .41mag Taurus Tracker). Keep the Guardian (do nothing to it) and get the P3AT and possibly selling the Guardian once the P3AT proves itself. Trading the Guardian for the P3AT and put out little if any extra cash. Or, getting the P3AT and keeping the Guardian for occasional use when in the mood (without plans to later sell it). I'm slightly leaning (today) towards using my current gun money (well, I'm about a month away) on the .41mag Tracker, but the P3AT does seem more and more interesting (and I will take another look at the PF-9).

mavracer
September 22, 2007, 11:25 PM
Doesn't seem to be too many votes to stick with the NAA Guardian.
I may be the odd man out,but thats exactly what I'd do.If its already proved its reliability why take a chance with Kel-tec's spotty reliability.BTW I feal somewhat in the same boat,If I had to do it again today I don't think I'd shell out the money on my seecamp,I'd buy a p3at. but I'm not going to trade off a reliable good shooting gun.I would also recommend the Fiocchi 60 grn SJHP its hot stuff,I've chronoed it at 1000 fps from my seecamp.

NCHornet
September 23, 2007, 09:47 AM
Why are you wanting somebody on a gun forum to tell you what to do? All you will get on this forum is opinions in the end the only one that matters is yours. I have given you mine, and why would you trade your NAA Guardian + $ for a P3AT? I would want $ back on the deal and lot's of it. As already stated you have a proven reliable gun why would you want to take a chance on a KelTec? In the end due what best suits your needs no matter what I or anybody elses opinion is.

chaim
September 23, 2007, 10:10 AM
Why are you wanting somebody on a gun forum to tell you what to do? All you will get on this forum is opinions in the end the only one that matters is yours.

Umm, should we close up shop then, since no one should ask for anyone else's opinion online ;)

More than the actual opinion (don't just name the gun) the reasons behind it are useful. Some are very well thought out and may give me something I either didn't know, or hadn't thought about in a while, that could help me make up my mind. It is also interesting to see how other members of the forum think/decided on the same issue. I may or may not take the members' advice- I know a fair amount about guns, I have my own mind, and I'm not a puppet. Still, there can be useful information that I'll add to my thought process, and it is certainly interesting to hear what others have to say.

NCHornet
September 23, 2007, 11:17 AM
The OP has stated that he has reliable operating weapon in the Guardian, he asked for opinions on what folks thought about him trading for the P3AT and those were given. In his last post it sounds like he asking folks to talk him out of his Guardian, I'm sorry if I have a reliable firearm nobody is going to convince me to take a chance on something else that is hit or miss to say the least. I didn't mean for nobody to ask for opinions because that is how I have learned as well, but as I said in the end we all have to do what we feel is best for ourself. Didn't mean the above to sound like it did. Sorry

Ala Dan
September 23, 2007, 11:24 AM
Actually, I have two choices when it comes to pocket carry- :uhoh:

That being said, I can alternate between the KEL-TEC P3AT .380
(which is lighter is weight); or the all stainless steel Seecamp LWS
32. As of late, the KEL-TEC has seen the most duty~! :scrutiny:;)

chaim
September 23, 2007, 12:17 PM
Didn't mean the above to sound like it did. SorryNo need to say sorry. I figured out how you meant it, hence the smilie at the end of the first part of my response. No biggie.

Powderfinger
September 23, 2007, 02:27 PM
chaim,
Here are the results of a .380 ammo test (which is 9mm caliber BTW) fired from a P3AT.
The Cor-Bon doesn't seem to expand in it.
The Golden Sabers at 102 gr. or Win. Silver Tip would appear to be the way to go. While the P3AT needs a firm grip (no limp wristing), the recoil is not that sharp. HTH.


http://www.ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1523

RyanM
September 23, 2007, 05:43 PM
Personally, I still say to either go for a CW9 now (and resign yourself to carrying somewhere other than in the pocket), or keep saving for a PM9. The PM9 isn't quite a jeans pocket gun, but it will work fine in a slacks pocket. I've handled a P3AT in a store, and did not find it sufficiently smaller than my MK40 to merit buying it. Any time I could carry a P3AT, I could most likely manage the slightly larger, significantly heavier MK40. A Seecamp LWS380, on the other hand, is definitely on my "to buy" list, once I have $800 saved up.

P3AT is 5.2" long, 3.5" high, 0.77" wide.
MK40 (measured with calipers) is 5.57" long, 4.19" high (including sights and magazine), and 0.98" across the grips.
NAA .32 is 4.4" x 3.3" x 0.85".
Seecamp .380 is 4.25" x 3.25" x 0.91".

Thus, both the P3AT and PM9 would be a fairly significant increase in length, the only real difference is the PM9 would be considerably taller and a bit heavier. Depending on your pockets, that could be good or bad. Keeps the gun more stable, but may make it hard to draw if your pockets have small openings.

DAdams
September 23, 2007, 11:14 PM
A Seecamp LWS380, on the other hand, is definitely on my "to buy" list, once I have $800 saved up.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/dmadams/P9110037.jpg

I just acquired this a couple weeks ago. Had it to the range two days ago. It's a handful with 102 gr RGS. 25 rounds including WWB 85, SGD 90. I did best with the SGD at 4 yards. After 24 rounds that was enough. It ran all 24 rounds flawlessly. As Larry Seecamps so aptly states, no new handgun should have to be "broken in". That's the way I felt about the PM9 although Kahr says 200 rounds...I have one and either they work 100% or they don't in talking with other owners. Mine got worse as it progressed to 400 hundred rounds, not better.

After one trip back to the factory it's working as it should. This is the first time I have put over 100 round through it w/o a hitch.
I ran 147 gr SGD, 124 gr Hydra-Shok, and CORBON 115 gr DPX +P, including a half a box of Independence 115 gr ball, flawless, .... finally. Now I need to get the sights adjusted and get good with it. I like the form factor and in a DeSantis Nemesis it carries fine in the pocket.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/dmadams/P2140017.jpg

I sometimes carry a M&P 340 J Frame.

22luvr
September 24, 2007, 10:09 AM
I'd have bought a Guardian .32 years ago but I could not get a safe, secure grip on it with my large hands/fingers.

I've owned several NAA minis and you cannot fault the quality of the material and workmanship in the Guardian. They're beautiful little pieces that instill pride of ownership.

If you are satisfied overall with the Guardian (and it sounds like you are) I would simply keep it and not worry about the relative merits of a .32 ACP - VS - a .380 auto.

You might be exchanging something that you enjoy shooting and that is dead-reliable for an unknown quantity.

Yes, I have owned 3 kel-tecs: an older model P11, the P32, and the P3-AT. Of all those offerings, the P32 was the easiest to shoot and most accurate. They are mass-produced, brilliantly engineered but it is my opinion that they do not possess the same quality materials or workmanship that your Guardian does.

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