[U.S.SFC_RET]

I am reloading for accuracy but I sincerely doubt that I will be shooting anything close to 400 yards. Yes I am looking for tight groups at 100 yds with a 7mm Mag. Do I have to trickle the powder for each and every load? I am throwing really close as it is with 4350. How about Reloader 22.
Do I have to trickle each and every load on each and every rifle that I have or does trickling to the fine line only count for competition?:confused:

[W.E.G.]

Let me suggest this.

Load some rounds that are a half-grain more, and a half-grain less respectively than your preferred load.

Shoot your preferred load, and the two test-loads at your preferred target.

Let us know whether the differences in powder charge have one iota relevant difference in your preferred group size and preferred point of impact.

[GunTech]

Keep in mind the target powder charge is a big factor. Being off by half a grain is nothing in a 45gn powder charge. If you're loading something like 22 hornet (11 grains or so) it can make a huge difference

[Hunter0924]

For accuracy in powder weight, yes.

[Kimber1911_06238]

for tight groups at 100, probably not. do W.E.G.'s test and see how that works. I have done similar tests and have not found much of a difference I'm talking 1/8th to 1/4 inches at 100 yards.

[Hutch]

Nope. I have seen some pretty serious benchrest competitors use a high-quality powder measure and load their ammo at the range during a match. No scales in evidence, and no tricklers, either.

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I am not talking anywhere near 1/2 grain or 1/10 grain. I am talking matching the scale's fine line. A hair over to a hair under. Am I wasting time?
I zero my scales and watch the scales like a hawk to make sure I don't bump any of the weights. Check the powder throw but should I meter and check each and every throw of powder or does it make a difference?

[Walkalong]

I have seen some pretty serious benchrest competitors use a high-quality powder measure and load their ammo at the range during a match.
We load all weekend long. We use a good measure & meticulas technique. Consistent volume is the key to consistent weight.

[mugsie]

First of all SFC - thanks for your service.

Now -about the charges - no you don't need to go nuts over a smidgen above or below the line. If you're loading rifle, and throwing something in the 20 + grains range (I throw 26g for my .223) a smidgen isn't going to matter at all.

Want to satisfy yourself - drop a smidg on the scale and see how little it takes to move the pointer up a little. Less than a tenth of a grain and the scale starts to move. Figure that into the overall amount and the percentage is so small any shooter error will cancel it out immediately. Don't drive yourself crazy - load, check maybe every 25th or so round and go out and work on your technique. Believe me - you'll see errors in technique more than you will a tenth more or less in the powder. :)

Stay safe and shoot well.

[taliv]

yes and no.

if you follow the "optimal charge weight" method, then the load you'll eventually settle on should be relatively immune to small changes in charge weight. that will let you throw charges without being at a disadvantage.

the tricky part is that my most recent project with h3250 found alternating high and low impacts with every .2 grains... i.e. no real optimal charge weight, so i have to be VERY particular and weigh all my charges instead of throwing them.

[wanderinwalker]

Second the test at a little above and a little below and see what happens.

I already related this story on TFL (P-990 over there) in another thread, but I'll repeat the gist of it anyway.

A range friend and I are hamming away after a 300-yard slowfire prone league. Turns out we were using the exact same .223 load in our AR-15s. My rifle is a standard Service Rifle-ready Highpower rifle. His is a scoped varmint Bushy with a Harris bipod on the front. I had beaten his score that night.

As he explained how he trickled charges, sorted bullets and all that, I just chuckled and said, "I set up the progressive, crank off a hundred and come shoot."

If you're in the optimal-charge weight zone, you should be OK to just throw charges. Of course, realize that in my story I am only looking for a 2-MOA 10-ring shooting from my belly. A 1-MOA or smaller pin might require a different technique.

[MattB000]

I have seen some pretty serious benchrest competitors use a high-quality powder measure and load their ammo at the range during a match. No scales in evidence, and no tricklers, either.

I read in one of my books somewhere that some people are of the opinion that volume is a more accurate measurement than weight when it comes to powder.

[quicktime]

I currently use the RCBS auto scale and am very happy with it. I just push a button and presto charge is right. But I used to use the old throw em and stuff a bullet and honestly unless you are an anal retentive control freak who has to eliminate they mere thought of being a tenth of a grain off it works fine and trades reloading bench time for shooting bench time. So I think bottom line is don't sweat over it.

[Jim Watson]

For a coarse powder like 4350, I would lean to weighing the load. You can load good ammunition with measured powder charges, but it takes some time to learn good technique; also to learn the feel of the measure and when to throw one back.

Or you could run the experiment. Load some with weighed charges, some with charges with a known weighed spread, some measured.

When my new barrel proved to not "like" Ball process powders, I got a PACT dispenser and weigh my target loads with a tolerance of - 0, + .1 grain. I don't know if that is absolutely necessary, but it makes me feel better.

[HiWayMan]

I find myself using my scale less and less each time I load. I've either bought or made dippers that match all my weighed charges +/-0.1 gr. It speeds stuff up and accuracy is better than ever. I believe volume is more important than weight.

[Jim Watson]

A dipper at +/- 0.1 grain?
Wow, now there is technique.

[taliv]

heh, yeah, i'd like to hear a little more about that too

[jvik]

The first time I went to a Benchrest match I assumed everyone would be weighing each charge. Such was not the case - they just got their powder measure set and went with that.

Of course we are talking very accurate powder measures here - some of them cost up to $300 or so. But everyone said that at 100 yards, a couple tenths of a grain in a 6mm PPC case wouldn't make any difference.

I was quite happy to find that my old Hornady measure threw charges well inside these tollerences - usually my scale reports they are each dead on. So you have to see how your measure is working with the powder you're using - and I use a powder that will work well with my measure.

[jacobhh]

This is getting beyond my ability to comprehend,
which I admit is not tough. But if I'm reading the
data correctly (please check) it takes about a full
grain of powder to change the velocity of a 6mm PPC
by 100 fps which translates into about one bullet
width of drop in 200 yds.. I know I can't see that
well and neither can my spec ops son. I must be
missing something. Please advise.

[taliv]

jacob, in theory, there are two things going on here...

the first is raw velocity which, along with bc, determines how far a bullet will drop in a given period. if the velocity is a little different, as you say, it has an effect, but not a dramatic one.

the second is that the barrel is vibrating as the bullet travels down it, and the point the bullet exists the barrel could be at the top or bottom or anywhere in between of the vibration cycle. because of this, you can take one charge that has the bullet exiting at the bottom of the cycle, and work down to find the next lower charge that exits at the top of the cycle, and thus find a LOWER velocity that actually prints HIGHER on the target. does that make sense?

[Gewehr98]

You do what you have to do to maintain that consistency from shot-to-shot. Keeping your velocity deviations between shots to an absolute minimum is one technique to making sure the bullets are hitting the same place each time.

Benchresters are usually the cutting edge in precision shooting techniques. As mentioned above, folks often forget that those guys don't throw their powder charges by mass (weight). They throw them by volume, albeit very consistently.

Why? Different lots of smokeless powder weigh varying amounts per a given volume, so you can see what they're doing to eliminate variables from the equation. They're being quite consistent with their chosen volume of propellant.

I shoot F-Class and 1000 yard tactical. I'm lucky to group 10 rounds into 10" at 1000 yards, and 5 rounds into 8" at the same distance. I use a Dillon digital D-Terminator scale these days, because I'm not a benchrester, per se. (At least, until I can save up enough for a Prometheus powder measure)

[taliv]

i could be wrong, but i was under the impression that folks in benchrest had generally migrated away from throwing and back to weighing. much like they moved from neck sizing back to full-length resizing.

[K3]

I'm hopelessly anal retentive about weighing my charges. The first .223 rounds I ever loaded did 0.75" at 100 yards. I have to stick with it now. :banghead:

[Gewehr98]

But I'll wager they're sticklers for consistency in powder throwing, regardless of whether it's thrown by volume or mass. ;)

[K3]

So how are burn rates calculated? Is it Volume/Time? Or is it Mass/Time?

[HiWayMan]

A dipper at +/- 0.1 grain?
Wow, now there is technique.

What can I say, consistancy happens.

I've weighed 100+ thrown charges individually and get that on average. I prefer to throw 10 or more charges into the pan and divide the weight by the number of charges thrown. A more accurate picture of what charges are actually going into a lot of cartridges is made apparent that way.

Most of my dippers are cut down .223 brass. A long tall column case seems to work better than say a cut down .44 mag case. I basically loose fill to the top and tap the side of the dipper handle four times to settle the charge. Hasn't failed me yet.

I could tell you about the ones that throw inside of .1 grain.......but you wouldn't believe it......I hardly can.

[jacobhh]

the next lower charge that exits at the top of the cycle, and thus find a LOWER velocity that actually prints HIGHER on the target. does that make sense?

Absolutely, taliv, thank you. So, Starting low, Weighing to make sure
you're in the pressure range you want, working up a bit at a time to
find your sweet spot then throwing by volume to maintain max
consistency sounds like the ticket.

Now all I have to do is get over my ingrained tendency to weigh and
trickle which I've been doing for over 20 yrs. and I'm in business.

[owen]

length/time, with a fudge factor for granule shape.

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I am very interested in the dipper theory like say I have a favorite powder with a favorite load worked up. From what I gather in this threadiis that dippers are quick and tap it four times. How do I make a dipper to that particular load?. I can actually believe you can get a dipper to measure to .1 of a grain.
To me custom dippers means not cutting powders. Just create your load and make the dipper. :D

[HiWayMan]

How do I make a dipper to that particular load?

Take an empty piece of brass with a spent primer in it. Weigh out the proper charge and dump it in the case. Mark the outside of the case a bit higher up than the inside powder level. Glue the case onto a popsicle stick and that is your basic dipper. Fine tune the volume by working the case shorter with a fine flat file. Chamfer the case inside and out and you are done. No need to weigh each charge to test the volume. Throw ten charges into a pan and weigh it out. Do that 5 times and you have a very good idea of the volume/weight.

[SR_]

Maybe I don't have it set up right but my RCBS Uniflow will easily vary +/- .5 grains between loads with the powder I use for the 30-06. It tends to be more like +/- .3 grains on the powder I use for .270 Win.

I don't shoot a lot of rifle ammo and I want it to be accurate so I get it close then trickle.

But I never worry if I'm only a hair over. If its any more than that, I just pour out a few grains back into the trickler and then trickle it again. Does not take much time to get it 'right.'

[taliv]

so are you throwing ten charges into a pan and weighing all ten and dividing by ten?

or are you throwing ten charges and weighing each one?

[callgood]

There may be situations where volume is the only alternative. I've been using a PACT digital dispenser but it has been in the shop since late July. I thought this was a great excuse to pick up a Harrells pistol measure. It's very accurate with American Select, Titegroup, and even Varget. I had been planning for some time to load some .38 Special with Unique, 4.0 and 4.2 grains for starters. I never threw a load >.1 grains, but I threw quite a few much LOWER. One was 1.9 grains IIRC. Numerous drops were clearly too low by sight alone.

I have a set of Lee dippers in the garage, but I figured by the time I got them and the trickler set up I could finish with the Harrels. When that theory crashed and burned I just relied on stubborness and finished out the 100 rounds.

When the PACT gets back next week, or the next, I'm going to set it up for 4.4 and 4.6 grains and see if it measures better. If not, when I find the load I like I'll get a .223 case and a file and go to work.

[Jim Watson]

".38 Special with Unique, 4.0 and 4.2 grains for starters. I never threw a load >.1 grains, but I threw quite a few much LOWER. One was 1.9 grains IIRC."

Small loads of flake powder are tough.
I load 12 ga with 700X and it is a good pistol powder too, from the standpoint of accuracy, cleanliness, and economy. But it is a large flake and does not meter very well. I loaded a lot of .45 ACP with it but when I tried it in .38 Special, I would get the occasional one grain load. Never a no-powder "squib" but enough subloads that just kind of lobbed the bullet that I went to W231 Ball. Repeated the experience in 9mm out of stubborness.

I am now running a test program with a cheap aquarium air pump strapped to the powder measure on my Dillon to see if I can reliably load light charges of 700X with a little vibration to settle it into the bar.

[HiWayMan]

so are you throwing ten charges into a pan and weighing all ten and dividing by ten?

or are you throwing ten charges and weighing each one?

I've done both, but of late have been using only the former method as I believe it is a much more accurate representation of what charges are consistantly thrown.

[30Cal]

But I never worry if I'm only a hair over. If its any more than that, I just pour out a few grains back into the trickler and then trickle it again. Does not take much time to get it 'right.'

You and I must be shooting in different quantities. Trickling adds gobs of time.

[taliv]

if you're trying to hit 10.6 grains, and your dips are
10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, 10.5, 10.7, 10.8, 10.9, 10.10, 10.11
then you'll get an an avg of 10.6

i'm just not sure what that's telling you. Statistically, if you built your dipper right, then your loads will average out to your target weight, but that in no way indicates any individual load is that target weight.

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Jim Watson Quoted: I am now running a test program with a cheap aquarium air pump strapped to the powder measure on my Dillon to see if I can reliably load light charges of 700X with a little vibration to settle it into the bar.
Now That's Creative. Plug in the pump and let it vibrate for a predetermined amount of time, let the powder settle and predictable results should happen.

[Jim Watson]

Well, yes, but not created by me. I think it came from a Cowboy shooter wanting tenderfoot loads with a flake powder. There is a vibrator made for the purpose, but it costs $40 and that air pump was $6.