Any anti forums out there?


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Combat-wombat
July 5, 2003, 11:01 PM
Are there any good anti-gun forums out there?

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Schuey2002
July 5, 2003, 11:06 PM
No.

Combat-wombat
July 5, 2003, 11:13 PM
okay then any good liberal forums where you are likely to encounter anti-gunners?

larryw
July 5, 2003, 11:28 PM
Problem with liberal forums is you don't encounter intelligent discussion, only Kool-Aid drinking idiots repeating the mantra of the day.

Michael (stupid, fat idiot) Moore had a forum online for a while. But like a liberal talk show, it couldn't survive because there was no free discussion of differing ideas

I do enjoy posting on the discussion groups on Yahoo News: go to http://news.yahoo.com/ and at the bottom of the article are links to the article's discussion group; some get lively. You'll find an interesting mix of ideas and the contrast between the liberal and conservative debate process is dramatic (conservatives use reason and fact, liberals use invective, deception and deflection).

Mark Tyson
July 5, 2003, 11:42 PM
So you want to go slumming, huh? You'll be surprised at how close-minded, hateful, ignorant, rude and bigoted people can be and still call themselves "liberal".

brookstexas
July 6, 2003, 12:15 AM
Yup, it's called the California & New York etc,. legislature! ;)
-BT

saddenedcitizen
July 6, 2003, 12:30 AM
You could go to Democratic Underground where there are some of the most unbelievable posts to be found in this universe.
You can't join unless you almost swear an oath of fealty to 'the cause'
'cause they don't want to hear any dissenting thoughts/opinions/facts/etc (you get the idea) - 'we've made up our minds (they have minds ?? that implies a thought process - oh well) don't confuse us with facts' !!

Zundfolge
July 6, 2003, 01:05 AM
Liberals are at heart Fascists and cannot stand dissent.

Therefore if you go to a liberal forum and try to have an honest, polite discussion you will find nothing but vitriol, venom and eventually banning by the admins (free speech only applies to speech that agrees with them).

further comments edited out for the sake of Art's Gramma


Ultimately its a waste of time.

As Oleg once told me "Never wrestle with a pig ... you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it."

Boats
July 6, 2003, 01:09 AM
The official term at DU is "disruptors." You know like a boulder of truth thrown into a sea of stupidity disrupts it at least for awhile? I believe that some of them must have picked up the term when concerned family members tried to de-program them from the liberal cult following high school and a career on the line at Taco Bell upon graduation from a left-wing campus with a Masters in Fine Arts degree.

Oleg Volk
July 6, 2003, 01:35 AM
We have plenty of liberals on THR. In fact, one of them got me into gun ownership...
Be careful of how you speak -- your allies may be within earshot. Much as I disagree with some things liberals try to advance, I'd rather have a lot of them on my side of the RKBA issue.

Zundfolge
July 6, 2003, 01:44 AM
Be careful of how you speak -- your allies may be within earshot.

Show me where all these pro-gun Liberal web forums are :neener:

Believe me, there are many liberals (particularly the ones who run liberal forums like Democratic Underground, and this idiot who signed up here from that Al Gore forum) who would not agree that your pro gun liberals are truely liberals (I wouldn't be surprised to see the phrase "Uncle Tom" come up in that discussion.

I think the handfull of pro-gun liberals we have here know what kind of Liberals we're complaining about here.


Also remember that there's a difference between arguing and debating. I've found maybe 5 liberals in the last 10 years who are capable of debating ... most just argue (and then the namecalling starts).

EDIT: and lets not get into that symantic argument about modern liberals and "classical liberals" ... certainly most of us here are actually "classical liberals". But we all know what is meant when discussing modern American politics when one uses the term "Liberal"

Dizos
July 6, 2003, 04:13 AM
Problem with liberal forums is you don't encounter intelligent discussion, only Kool-Aid drinking idiots repeating the mantra of the day.

So you want to go slumming, huh? You'll be surprised at how close-minded, hateful, ignorant, rude and bigoted people can be and still call themselves "liberal".

'cause they don't want to hear any dissenting thoughts/opinions/facts/etc (you get the idea) - 'we've made up our minds (they have minds ?? that implies a thought process - oh well) don't confuse us with facts' !!

Liberals are at heart Fascists and cannot stand dissent.

Also remember that there's a difference between arguing and debating. I've found maybe 5 liberals in the last 10 years who are capable of debating ... most just argue (and then the namecalling starts).

I'm sorry, but after spending a year on several gun forums, I have heard more HATEFUL, POISONOUS, CLOSE MINDED insults and threats thrown at liberals. Again and again I am shocked at the HATE expressed by the gun community at an entire segment of our population. I happen to be liberal and an avid firearms owner and supporter of the 2nd. I would really like to see the above people actually walk their talk and attempt to have a reasonable conversation with someone who disagrees with their views (I think you will find more than 5 people in 10 years as rational as you are). Please show some humility. As someone who dwells in both "conservative" and "liberal" circles, it is my experience that there is anger and frustration on both sides but very little effort at communication. This is because communication is difficult. From the quotes above, it sounds like you are having a hard time with dissent too. Which is strange since you are such clear minded true-blooded Americans who mentally dwarf the spineless liberal traitors.

I have introduced some of my liberal friends to the culture of safety and responsibility that goes with firearm ownership. I have show many of my liberal friends the significance of hunting ones own meat. I have liberal friends who were raised with firearms and taught by their fathers
how to handle a firearm responsibly. I also know liberals who fought for our country in World War II, Korea and the Viet Nam war and call themselves "Veterans for Peace".

I apologize about resorting to sarcasm, but I have to hear this crap all the time and I am really losing patience. It will not help us keep our right to bear arms by stereotyping an entire segment of the population and alienating them.

-- Jeff

Devonai
July 6, 2003, 04:32 AM
Perhaps we find ourselves following the classic dichotomy that while all liberals are not anti-gun, all anti-gunners are liberals.

The only people we actually despise are those that would deprive us of our God-given rights. When a majority of a group are striving towards that end, as we perceive it, they all get lumped together. It's human nature.

Hand_Rifle_Guy
July 6, 2003, 04:49 AM
We refer to liberals with dedicated unpleasantness because 95% of the time that's ALL we get from them. The Al Gore support guy is a PERFECT example of this. We have simply learned to give as good as we get. Who's fault is it if we get dragged down to their level? It's the ONLY place they're even willing to converse.

Additionally, we are actually capable of entertaining ideas outside of our beliefs, even if we don't agree with them. We can also forgive people whom we disagree with, and allow them to believe what they wish without hating them, and regarding their disagreement as a personal insult.

Virulent knee-jerk anti-American Socialist Liberals have REPEATEDLY demonstrated that they universally are NOT capable of that type of behavior. They are the ones who set the standards, and must therefore live wih the consequences.

MicroBalrog
July 6, 2003, 08:04 AM
As I hate to remind you people, I'm a socialist liberal.

Mark Tyson
July 6, 2003, 09:38 AM
Dizos/Jeff:

I consider myself a moderate liberal. Most of my friends are social liberals. I'm liberal in the sense that I think that the government has to help people out sometimes and keep an eye on the excesses of the private sector.

I was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of people who refer to themselves as liberal, yet want the government to kick down your door and throw you in jail merely for owning guns. Believe me, they're out there, I've met them. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've heard. Or maybe you've heard it, too.

It's the same deal with "conservatives" who espouse "limited government" yet want to regulate people's personal lives.

Internet forums really bring some horrible types out of the woodwork. There is something about the anonymity of the internet that allows people to engage in some vicious insults. The High Road seems to be an exception to that rule, and that's why it is the only forum I frequent these days. (Remember the James Castilla thread?) The people here are a lot more conservative than me, but by and large they are very polite and reasonable. I've never been insulted or called a name or disrespected.

And yes, I do sit down(in person, not online) with other liberals to talk RKBA. I have gotton some unbelieveably hostile responses . . . and a few interesting discussions.

Mark Tyson

Combat-wombat
July 6, 2003, 02:22 PM
Yeah, I know about DU. I saw what happened when the James Castilla thread got posted.:barf:

Last time I checked, I was officially a "disruptor":D

Dizos
July 6, 2003, 03:52 PM
Sorry about the rant above. I re-read it and realized I was venting which is exactly the type of behavior I was critisizing. It is true this forum expresses much more tolerance and diversity of opinion than many of the other forums I frequent.

Virulent knee-jerk anti-American Socialist Liberals have REPEATEDLY demonstrated that they universally are NOT capable of that type of behavior. They are the ones who set the standards, and must therefore live wih the consequences.

I guess I'm glad you have qualified just exactly what type of Liberals we are talking about here. Maybe should add "shifty-eyed" to the description.

- Jeff

Hand_Rifle_Guy
July 6, 2003, 04:41 PM
Two things:

1.) I did say 95%, not 100%. I am aware of the pro-gun liberal Dems on this board. You folks are the exception rather than the rule. I do not regard such as close-minded knee-jerk non-thinkers. I'n trying not to tar everyone with the same brush.

2.) I for one will forgive anyone their differring opinions. That's what America's about. You may think and say what you like, so long as I don't earn hatred for my disagreement. I may get exasperated with obnoxious liberals, but I only hate criminals.

Microbalrog, Jeff, I was trying to clarify the whys and wherefores of my/our learned responses, not be sarcastic or deliberately inflamatory. Please don't take it personally in any way, as if you're on THIS board, you have demonstrated the ability to maintain civility, and the above description simply DOES NOT APPLY to you.

Tolerance is NOT too much to expect. Intolerance is a sign of deficeint intelligence and maturity.

TerrierSandhawk
July 6, 2003, 07:11 PM
C W, You may want to take a look here.

http://dmoz.org/Society/Issues/Gun_Control/Anti-Gun_Rights/

All kinds of anti-gun sites listed

T/S

Navy joe
July 6, 2003, 09:40 PM
T/S, thanks for the links, from them I found this pearl in the garbage heap: http://www.bradycampaign.com/press/release.asp?Record=491

Think I'll go vote for Dean in some primaries just to annoy a leftist ;)

Zundfolge
July 6, 2003, 10:15 PM
I would really like to see the above people actually walk their talk and attempt to have a reasonable conversation with someone who disagrees with their views (I think you will find more than 5 people in 10 years as rational as you are). Please show some humility. As someone who dwells in both "conservative" and "liberal" circles, it is my experience that there is anger and frustration on both sides but very little effort at communication. This is because communication is difficult. From the quotes above, it sounds like you are having a hard time with dissent too.

Ya know Dizos, I've been involved in the RKBA debate for a long time (along with property rights and the soverigenty of the individual ... which I believe are at the root of the RKBA debate). I have tried repeatedly to carry on civil debates and discussions of guns and gun rights with self proclaimed "liberals" and "antis" on their forums and in all but a couple of cases I have been shouted down, insulted, and in most cases banned by moderators or admins.


The more I think about it, the only civil and polite liberals I've debated this subject with on the internet have been in this forum (and TFL).


I understand your point, but frankly its the liberals who started throwing their feces first ... I choose not to go there and have feces thrown at me anymore, and if its thrown at me I'll probably toss a little back, then leave. It does no good and changes no minds (their minds are too closed to change).

I think if you look at us here on THR and in the RKBA movement in general, we have been more then patient with the rude anti 2nd Amendment bigots then they have been with us.

In addition, while I believe the majority of rank and file antis honestly believe outlawing guns will make the world a better place, I still believe those behind the anti-gun rights movement have slavery and deathcamps in mind for us ... there is no other reason I can see why they still insist on disarming us when history, the facts and the experience of several other countries proves that gun control increases crime, decreases freedom and leaves a nation ripe for a Hitler type to come to power. Thats why I believe there is too much at stake to just "agree to disagree" (which their side is not willing to do either).


I pray that we never have to settle this argument by taking up our arms, but honestly most of the hardcore antis will leave us no choice if they get the power they want :(


You call yourself a liberal, and you may very well be, but frankly your tactics for debate and discussion are not in line with your fellow liberals (that was a complement son :) ).

brownie0486
July 6, 2003, 10:29 PM
I hear a lot about "god given rights".

Anyone care to explain how they talked to God, and when?

Who initially wrote they were God given? God? Can you show me where he spoke this anywhere? If God didn't write them or speak them, how are they God given.

Someone been having visions again? I want proof this time that God spoke of these rights everyione thinks were God given.

I know, I know, it was pased down from father to son-----------------:rolleyes:

Brownie

Devonai
July 7, 2003, 01:08 AM
Thanks for diminishing several religious beliefs at once. A veritable coup de grace.

There are those of us who believe that God is the ultimate endower of rights. Therefore, no entity of man could ever deprive us of those rights.

When did we hear the voice of God? I, for one, believe in the scripture. If you believe that the scripture is the word of God, then you can derive your support for individual rights based on what God says.

If you reject this perspective, fine. But for those of us who believe it is true, that is where we base our beliefs.

Proof will come after I review my exhaustive concordance. Stand by.

Mark Tyson
July 7, 2003, 07:56 AM
You don't need to be religious to believe that all men are endowed with inalienable rights. The right to bear arms is a core human and civil right.

Monte Harrison
July 7, 2003, 10:23 AM
Or you make a case that there are no "rights", there is only power: the power to compel and the power to resist. We have the "rights" of free speech and firearms, etc. only when these things are not taken away from us by government using their power to compel, and when our power to resist is strong enough to keep the "rights." It is human nature to always want more than one has, whether that is material possessions or power, and it is human nature to have the willingness to use violence in obtaining what we want, and in protecting what we have. Ain't no such thing as "inalienable rights."

Back on topic: I have been on DU a couple of times, and while there is plenty of the "don't confuse me with the facts" mindset, I have also been amazed how many rational people were there. They were all arguing OUR side, of course.

brownie0486
July 7, 2003, 11:57 AM
I knew I would get some good responses to the question asked.

Mark: "The right to bear arms is a core human and civil right."

Is that written somewhere and by whom? Is this quote an opinion or factual in nature?

Devonai: I'll stand by, but I thnk it will be hard for anyone attempting to put guns into the equation where God is concerned, they were not around back then, how would they have been mentioned specifically?

The founding fathers held certain truths to be self evident if I'm not mistaken and wrote thus into the constitution. Now, as mortals, they had opinions based on their beliefs and wrote these thoughts into a document.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with their actions or their thought process but instead am attempting to determine if these inalienable rights/core rights/god given rights were set forth by God somewhere or whether mere mortals took up the cause and wrote their thoughts into a document.

If it actually turns out that mortals wrote their thoughts of what should be "god given rights" then I should expect the ultra hardy proponents of the 2a who state these things may need to rethink their comments about the rights in question.

Too many 2a proponents use these terms in defining their idea of fair play for humanity. I'm just wondering if they have any evidence to support that position or whether they are reciting what the founding fathers of America wrote due to their beliefs [ which mortals tend to do ocassionally ].

Brownie

Cosmoline
July 7, 2003, 12:28 PM
I've been arguing with the antis over on IMDB's "Bowling for Columbine" forum ever since Moore shut down his forum. By the time he did, we had almost completely taken over the "BFC" portion of it :D We were even having discussions about various kinds of firearms. Drove the antis bonkers.

I have run across a fair number of conservatives who are anti-gun. It shouldn't be a surprise. Traditional conservatives, esp. of a certain persuasion, tend to see nothing wrong with governmental bans on drugs, booze, and firearms.

In fact, I find that I have a lot in common with liberals, and enjoy their confusion when I go to their LEFT. If they complain about the war in Iraq, I will simply suggest that we agree that the world's governments clearly cannot handle their firearms responsibly and should be disarmed for the greater good.

El Rojo
July 7, 2003, 12:44 PM
I don't like liberals. Sorry, I don't have to like liberals. When you live in a state full of the idiots, you will dislike liberals too. When you can no longer buy an AR-15, you can't get a CCW permit, you can't eat horsemeat if you want, no more lawful trapping of varmints, and they raise your car registration by three times, you too will get fed up with the moronic liberal mindset. All stupid liberals come to California. You will fester and breed here unlike any other habitat in the country.

If you take offense to my opposition to your tax and spend attitude, your insisting on regulating any and all aspects and of life, and your careless disregard for the life of unborn children, then you have a problem. I have a right to feel the way I want. I have a right to oppose your liberal agenda. You have a right to do what you do too. However, I still think liberals are the enemy and they ruin all that is good in life. We can debate anything you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that the liberal mindset is wrong. How can I be so close minded to think such a thing? It is called morals, integrity, and consistency. I don't have to bend to the wrong ideas of others.

Example, I believe homosexual relationships are a sin. I think they are wrong. I won't encourage any one to participate in those activities. However, I don't see why people can't make their own choice when it comes to that decision. We were given free will. If homosexuals want to live a life of sin, it is no different than the porn industry, alcohol, or adultery. We don't try to abolish those things, it won't work. So I will tell you that I believe those things are wrong. However, if you still want to participate, it is your right.

Yet liberals try to tell us that what they think is wrong should be regulated and abolished. They encourage all of these ideas through "openness" and for the safety of the populous. They want to give all of the decision process to the government and live "safe" little lives. When you think about it, it all comes down to a socialist/communist state. They think that life can be perfect or that peace can be achieved. Yet, it will never work. Yet they try and try and try.

So yeah, I don't like liberals. They ruin my day. That doesn't mean I hate them. Everyone has the opportunity to accept salvation or to change. And it is my job to try and influence that. I do know it won't happen on any of the liberal message boards. I have been to www.msmagazine.com . They are as close minded as they come. The key is to influence the apathetic and lost people at work, at the gym, or where ever else you run into people that are not in the same mindset as you. Those are the people that can change. Those are the people we need to work on. The people on discussion boards are often pretty convinced their way works best. If they come here, they are willing to listen. If you go there, you must be willing to listen to their ideas. Otherwise it isn't going to happen.

Oleg Volk
July 7, 2003, 01:05 PM
Encouragement of defection from the enemy ranks is usually the best policy. As far as specific issues go, there's hardly a party that fully covers the stances of most people...but, in general, the degree of "live and let live" sentiment coincides with my opinion of the people adhering to a particular political view.

pax
July 7, 2003, 01:10 PM
Brownie,

I don't like contributing to thread veer, so I'd suggest you start a fresh thread on the subject of rights.

Meanwhile, see my post at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=237642#post237642 for my explanation of what the word "rights" means and why people use "God-given" when talking about it.

pax

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... -- the Declaration of Independence

gun-fucious
July 7, 2003, 01:12 PM
here is a forum run by an Anti:
http://www.saneguns.com/discus/index.html

not as much traffic as THR thou...

olyAR73
July 7, 2003, 01:14 PM
Check out www.mikemalloy.com for your hardcore anit- American viewing pleasure.

dd-b
July 7, 2003, 01:16 PM
:neener:

The amount of closed-minded virulent hatred I see for "liberals" in various gun forums is discouraging and appalling. Just yesterday I had my car slightly vandalized in a gun club parking lot -- somebody pried off my Darwin fish -- so I'm perhaps a bit more emotionally involved in the issue today than yesterday.

There's a reason that liberal attitudes correlate pretty well with education. The current American brand of "conservatism" (which is actually a radical reactionary position) is largely the product of lies and ignorance.

I also find gun owners have a stronger-than-usual tendency to be really mean when speaking about people not present, that they wouldn't be mean to to their face. So I make a special point of making my presence and beliefs known.

Speaking of Democrats and politics, notice that Howard Dean, one of the two front-runners for the nomination for 1994 right now, is not running on an anti-gun platform. (And remember he'll be running against Bush, who has promised to sign the AWB extension if it reaches him; his pro-gun credentials are not good.)

Oleg Volk
July 7, 2003, 01:20 PM
dd-b has hosted www.a-human-right.com since its inception. Some liberals are on our side by their deeds. Then again, he introduced me to the concept of liberarianism, so maybe "liberal" is as inexact a label as we suspected.

brownie0486
July 7, 2003, 01:40 PM
Pax:

Read the link, very interesting indeed. Some very good points made on both sides of the issue on that thread.

I'm impressed and pleased to see the thought processes going on there.

Thanks for the link.

Don't think I need top start another thread on rights, that one seems to have done very well.

Brownie

JohnK
July 7, 2003, 03:22 PM
It's not a forum exactly but on usenet in talk.politics.guns you can always find rabid people on both sides of the issue.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=talk.politics.guns

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