[lee n. field]

My gunphobic shopmate just passed this on to me: the Avurt IM 5 launcher (http://www.avurt.com/default.aspx?skinid=1).

It's not the worst idea ever, just many shortcomings. Not least of which, is that ammo is a tad pricy at 10/$40 or 25/$60.

[CWL]

Looks like a decent product if the pepperballs are as effective as they claim. Guaranteed accurate out to 40' with the laser pointer is pretty good.

My only objection is the size of the system, it'd be pretty difficult to carry it concealed.

***
Just watched the video, there's a really lame manual of arms to activate this system, You always need 2 hands to unfold before deployment. Based on this, I'd pass.

[USGuns]

Good idea as you could potentially stop the attack at a greater distance than pepper spray or taser but it is just way too big and unwieldy to be practical...

[fletcher]

I wouldn't trust one of these.

and highly effective at disabling attackers before they get close enough to do you harm. It protects from greater distances than Mace ™ or aerosol pepper sprays, and it doesn't have the potential to kill the way firearms do.
What if they're already close enough to harm you? Also, it probably does have the potential to kill, if it's anything like pepperball. Also, like USGuns said, it's big. Unless the user wants to walk around with it in-hand and shoot at anyone who looks threatening within 40' and hope it's sufficient detterent and the guy doesn't have buddies, it's next to worthless.

[White Horseradish]

The folding handle thing bothers me. That's gotta be slow.

The other thing is, this puppy is not "non-lethal". Google Victoria Snelgrove to see what I'm talking about.

The marketing, though, is just awesome. Picture that commercial with your favorite pistol in place of the pepperbox...

[White Horseradish]

Something else just occurred to me. If you carried that, and the apocryphal shotgun loaded with salt, you could just cook and eat your assailant... :neener:

[Joe Demko]

For you guys who are rather heavily critical of this (imperfect) product, I have a question: Would you prefer people who aren't willing or able to carry a firearm have this or nothing at all?
BTW, the demonstrator who was "killed by a pepperball" wasn't killed by a pepperball. The balls this thing uses are about as likely to kill you as a paintball, because that is pretty much what they are. The item that killed the demonstrator contained a payload of powdered bismuth in addition to pepper and delivered far more impact energy that a true pepperball.

[long shot117]

i think that if you need to stop some one at 40' then you are going crazy

[mdao]

I wonder why they went with something so large and toylike. The rounds are only .50 cal. Wouldn't be too difficult to make a 4-5 shot revolver about the size of a K-frame that fired these things. It'd have the advantage of being more concealable, more intuitive to use, and faster to get into action.

Plus it'd also make the BG think that you have a gun. That'd be a big advantage in a self defense confrontation, even if it's not as big of one as actually having a gun.

[dstorm1911]

Joe_demco, except that if ya check the restrictions on the product page it is prohibited in all the same states plus a couple that conventional weapons are prohibited at least the pepper rounds are in those states ya can own the inert talcum powder rnds but I have my doubts about the effectiveness of talcum powder as a defensive round myself..... and at $40 per 6 rnds for the talcum practice rounds ya aren't going to be doin much target practicing...... Guess as its banned in the same places folks can't legally own handguns it really has no benefit to those who otherwise are not legally able to carry anything else either....

[Joe Demko]

What about those who are unwilling?
OK, you don't want to carry one because it isn't what you consider right for you. That doesn't make it useless.

[RyanM]

That's the hugest, most unergonomic thing I've ever seen.

Personally, I'd say yes, I'd rather people carry nothing than one of those, if they refuse to use a gun. They'd be better served to spend the same amount of money for a realistic and effective unarmed self-defense course.

[yesit'sloaded]

If I am not mistaken Dog the bounty hunter carries one because he is a convicted felon and cannot have guns.

[coelacanth]

If you can't or won't carry a firearm then use one of the many VERY effective OC sprays on the market. They are smaller, easier to use, and likely more effective at incapacitating an assailant quickly. You can also use them at close range or inside a vehicle if necessary. I think the primary deterrent for the Avurt launcher would be the laser dot coming from a type of weapon the BG has likely not ever seen.

[Joe Demko]

I believe that there is too much of a belief that "If it isn't a gun, it's worthless" attitude on gun boards. You may personally believe that. However, there are people who are never going to carry a gun for one reason or another. Maybe it's illegal, maybe it's their personal beliefs, who knows? Now this product isn't perfect; it needs further development. It could be more svelte, the folding handle isn't the greatest (though we have guys on this board who carry minirevolvers with a folding handle who seem to get by). I never said it was perfect, though. I'd rather on old lady who won't own a gun have this on her nightstand than nothing. YMMV, but remember that a gun is only as good as your willingness and ability to use it. Said old lady pumping five pepperballs into an intruder beats her waving the .38 she's never fired.

[fletcher]

I have a question: Would you prefer people who aren't willing or able to carry a firearm have this or nothing at all?
There are better options than this. A can of pepper spray is a fraction of the size, and will do the same thing. This also requires shooting - I hope an untrained individual can hit the BG with at least one of those 5 balls while under stress - the practice rounds are even $1.60 (if you shell out for the big pack) a shot. The laser will help, but they'll have to hold their ground for a moment. Even a taser has an option for contact distance that won't come back and hit you when you use it.

Also, they can't even sell you the live rounds if you live in California, Delaware, Minnesota, DC or Wisconsin.

My conclusion is that it is impractical because of size and folding handle, and that there are much better options.

[Joe Demko]

A can of pepper spray is a fraction of the size, and will do the same thing.

No, it won't do the same thing. Pepper spray depends on the target being sensitive to pepper. If s/he isn't, spray has no effect. This item, like other pepperball launchers, also hurts just from the impact of the ball. The closer you are, the more it hurts. Sprays have a considerably shorter range and suffer greatly from the wind. I think it unlikely that one would be dealing with winds strong enough to blow the pepperball back into the shooter's face.

As I keep saying, this thing isn't perfect. The problem, though, is that I think you guys look at it and see it as a gun that isn't as good as a "real" gun. I look at it and see it as an improved way to deploy a less-lethal substance. It could stand further development, to be sure.

[fletcher]

No, it won't do the same thing. Pepper spray depends on the target being sensitive to pepper
Doesn't this do the same thing?

also hurts just from the impact of the ball. The closer you are, the more it hurts.
If it's about the same weight/velocity as a paintball, it certainly won't hurt enough to stop or discourage a determined person.

I look at it and see a bulky, slow, device that can be used on an attacker at range only, and needs substantial improvement. I don't really see it being useful unless the individual walks through the "dangerous" area with the launcher in hand. I have no doubt that if hit, the pepper would work on an attacker who is susceptible to it, but getting it out in time to use it seems like a big problem. 21 feet is the rule of thumb for drawing a gun if someone is running at you, and that's with practice and a holster, not keeping this folded up thing in a purse. I wish their videos would show someone actually pulling it out quickly, instead of a 10-second slow unfolding and demonstration.

[Joe Demko]

I look at it and see a bulky device that is no slower than the half fast way many people carry firearms and is_no matter what else_better than a whistle or other crap people who refuse to carry guns often depend on. At close range, it has been my experience that people who aren't practiced in the use of projectile weapons point them for the face because that is where their eyes are fixated. I suspect getting it in the face or throat with this thing isn't a particularly pleasant experience, even if it has no better velocity than a standard paintball gun. Paintballers wear all that protective stuff for a reason. I also suspect it would be light years ahead of blowing a whistle or flailing at somebody with your keys.
You want a gun? Carry one. It's your 2A right. There are people who won't carry one for reasons that you can't or won't understand. Devices like this, and (I hope) later more sophisticated iterations of it, offer them an alternative beyond trying to go hand-to-hand, screaming, and just plain being an utterly helpless victim.

[fletcher]

I agree that it's better than nothing, but I find it hard to believe that someone of the mindset to carry a whistle would shell out $300 to carry something like this. Something similar to a current paint-pistol, but with pepper projectiles would be far superior to this, IMO. It would not need to be unfolded, would be smaller, higher capacity, and shoot just as well.

[Mannix]

Alternatively there are magazine fed paint ball pistols out there that could use the standard capzasin pepper balls police use. Though the ammo is pretty expensive, you could use normal paintballs for practice, and those go for about $35/2000 if you go with the fleet farm specials.

A gun would be better though, or even bear mace (:evil:). This just seems too gimmicky for my taste.

[BigBlock]

Seems like it would be worse than nothing at all for a lot of people. It will give them a false sense of security, like that ridiculous video shows. "I am safe" Bull****. Then there's the people who will buy one and never practice with it...they'd be better off with a sharp stick.

And what if the attacker points a *REAL* gun at you? Then what?

[Joe Demko]

Tell us what if. If an attacker has the drop on you with a gun, you're in all kinds of trouble no matter what you are carrying; or are you one of those rare fellows who can draw a gun from concealment and beat a guy already pointing a gun at you to the shot? Further, there are plenty of people who seem to attach a talismanic power to firearms...that somehow just having one makes you safe and the master of any situation. Tain't so and you know it; yet no matter how many times I qualify my endorsement of this thing by saying it is better than being unarmed for people who CAN'T OR WON'T CARRY A GUN we keep coming back to how inferior it is to a gun. If you browbeat somebody who doesn't really want to have a gun into getting one, that person won't practice and won't have the will to use it. S/He'll wave it around trying to scare an attacker, at best. If that person has one of these clumsy things and because it is less lethal is willing to actually put it to use, then that person is better off than s/he would have been with the gun. Is it less of a stopper than a gun? Nobody has said otherwise, least of all me. But, how effective a gun is doesn't matter for somebody who isn't going to use one.

[BigBlock]

Tell us what if
Tweaker: "Give me your wallet" (points gun)
Me: "Ok, let me get it" (reaches into backpack, pulls gun and starts firing)
Tweaker: "***" (runs away screaming)

Yes, that really happened.

Or it could be like this:
Tweaker: "Give me your wallet" (points gun)
Woman afraid of guns: "eat pepper" (shoots pepper gun)
Tweaker: (says nothing, returns fire when he see's she's only got a toy gun, kills her, and takes per purse)

Like I said, that little toy will give people a false sense of security. Just like a real gun. The difference is, a real gun will protect you, that thing won't. It will make someone think they are protected and maybe cause them to walk into dangerous situations they othewise wouldn't have. Or instead of running they stop and fight, when they have no firepower. That's what their whole advertising campaign is about. It won't stop anybody who's on drugs and wants your money to get more.

People who are afraid of guns are vulnerable either way, this thing is like shooting a bear with a .22. You'd be better off if you just ran instead, you're only going to piss it off.

[armoredman]

OK, I'll say what I have seen IN PERSON. Pepperballs are inferior to pepper spray, at least the time I have PERSONALLY WITNESSED THEM USED in a prison setting. I am NOT saying the person using this space age Buck Rogers device is getting hosed, I agree someone might be very interested in this definately differant device, (and it MIGHT be just the ticket for certain types of animal defense - postal guys chime in here.), but in my humble experiance, the pepperball is not quite as effective as regular pepper spray.
Now, give that thing a much larger magazine, use regular pepperballs, give it two cycle rates, semi and full auto, use regular CO2 cans, instead of compressed nitrogen, and you might be going places. Give the person a back up spray unit attached to the same launcher, pointing the same direction, as a back up, and that might be a good seller, too, ie, have it auto switch to spray when the mag runs dry.
Edited to add, this unit would only be a choice in any location where possession of any defensive firearm is illegal/impossible. Might actually be a good seller in corrections departments with the add ons I mentioned.

[fletcher]

Tain't so and you know it; yet no matter how many times I qualify my endorsement of this thing by saying it is better than being unarmed for people who CAN'T OR WON'T CARRY A GUN we keep coming back to how inferior it is to a gun.
I have not once said how inferior it is to a gun, I have only compared it to other non-lethal options. The only mention of a gun from my side was a comparison for the 21' rule. That's it. Guns are not under discussion here, non-lethal/less-lethal options are. There's especially no need to accuse a number of the people here, especially myself, of trashing this thing because it's no gun. There have been plenty of threads on this forum that have degenerated into very non-THR, let's not let this be one of them. I gave my justifications as to why I find this inferior to other non-lethal options, now I would like to see some other than "it's better than nothing". I've only seen that it's better than OC spray because it's less likely to come back at the user. Why is this pepper ball launcher is superior to a taser, pepper spray, stun gun, etc. for your average Jane or Joe to carry with them? Personally, I would rather carry a taser than this.

I'm not looking to start a big argument, but I genuinely believe that the Avurt launcher, as currently designed, is extremely impractical for personal carry, and that there are better non-lethal options.

If an attacker has the drop on you with a gun, you're in all kinds of trouble no matter what you are carrying
I think that's pretty clear, and we all know that.

If that person has one of these clumsy things and because it is less lethal is willing to actually put it to use, then that person is better off than s/he would have been with the gun.
As has been confirmed by most everyone - yes, this is true. But, keep in mind that just because the Avurt has its place in the non-lethal world does not mean it's an awesome tool/option for civilian personal carry. I think a taser would be a great option for non-lethal personal carry. They seem easy to use and typically very effective, but how many people do you see actually carrying them around? How many carry OC spray? My experience has been that women in general WILL NOT carry bulky things, even if it's tucked away in their purse, because they just hate doing it, and their wardrobes are typically less accomodating than a man's for such things. It was all I could do to get my fiance to put a little thing of pepper spray in there since she can't carry. I know for a fact the size of this thing would discourage its use amongst women, who are clearly the target market for this from looking at a couple of their advertisements.

Now, give that thing a much larger magazine, use regular pepperballs, give it two cycle rates, semi and full auto, use regular CO2 cans, instead of compressed nitrogen, and you might be going places. Give the person a back up spray unit attached to the same launcher, pointing the same direction, as a back up, and that might be a good seller, too, ie, have it auto switch to spray when the mag runs dry.
+1. That would be a HUGE improvement to this thing, and make it much more useful and practical. I would still like to see the launcher be halved in size.

you could use normal paintballs for practice, and those go for about $35/2000 if you go with the fleet farm specials.
:what: Where did you get those? The cheapest used to be $35/500 back when I used to play.

[JShirley]

I think the new Kimber JPX (http://www.life-act.com/jpx.php) is probably a better solution. MSRP is high, though, at $360...already have the Guardian Angel (http://www.kimberamerica.com/shop/product.php?xProd=2&xSec=1).

[Joe Demko]

The JPX also looks interesting. I'd give it the same qualified endorsement i.e. that a person who can't or won't carry a gun would be better off with it than with nothing.

[fletcher]

The Guardian Angel looks interesting, and is very small. I'd like to see a video of the JPX in action.

[ConfuseUs]

When the Live Round hits the target, it bursts open, releasing an intensely powerful cloud of PAVA powder all around your attacker. This cloud instantly causes a severe stinging in the attacker’s eyes, nose and throat, leaving him temporarily blinded and gasping for air.
and
Now you can see why the Avurt IM-5 launcher deserves a place in your purse or nightstand!


Letting loose a cloud of choking agent in a confined space like a home is likely to be counterproductive, especially if used at close range. At home a foaming pepper spray is WAY better than this product since it won't incapacitate the user. Shotguns, handguns, or foaming pepper sprays all seem superior to this design at home.

Other questions: Suppose that you need to reload this thing in a hurry? How much fumble fingering will it require? If it had a capacity of 10 shots it would be much better. Why is it that they use a proprietary .50 cal projectile when a .68 cal projectile would allow practice with cheap and readily available paintballs? Also, why is this system as expensive as some handguns and costs more to operate as well?

The concept is a good one, but the implementation is open to several valid criticisms.

[coelacanth]

nobody but Joe Demko seems to be comparing the Avurt product to a gun on this forum ( which is titled non-firearms weapons, last time I looked ). That said it is still about the silliest thing I've seen advertised as a self defense weapon. It is a projectile weapon and as such requires a modicum of skill to employ effectively. Basically you are going to have to practice at least a LITTLE bit to have any chance of hitting your target in a stressful situation. Up the ante to multiple targets and I think the likelihood of successfully defending yourself with this thing is virtually nil. Practice ammo is very expensive and I seriously doubt that anyone here would feel well qualified with any projectile weapon they only ran 50 or 100 rounds through. Are we under any illusions here about potential buyers of this thing taking delivery of a case of practice ammo and spending some serious range time with it? I think not.

I think the danger of a false sense of security with this thing is very real. I maintain that the preferred method of delivering an incapacitating agent is best served by a smaller, lighter, more concealable, and easier to use OC spray. For the record we used to play paintball wars without any safety equipment but goggles and even close range hits were shrugged off as no big deal except for one guy who took one in the privates. We all had a good laugh and he cleaned our clocks next game, so don't give me any BS regarding how painful these "hits" are going to be. People who can't or won't carry a firearm owe it to themselves and their loved ones to use the most effective equipment available to them and IMHO the Avurt product ain't it.

[Bondo_Red]

"Oh no that chick has a lasertag pistol!" Thats the reaction I expect.If you don't want to carry a firearm,carry a kabar,not a collapsible paintball gun.more reliable,cheaper,and more effective.

[joab]

Between this a a sharp stick i would almost choose the stick
There ya go Joe nothing to do with it being or not being a gun

It's too big to carry in anything but a shopping bag
It's too slow to bring into play unless you are already carrying the thing at the ready to begin with

It is quite possibly that deliverer of false sense of security that may get someone killed or shot with their own spice dispenser

For about the same price you could get a more effective taser that would also be easier to deploy and reload and much less expensive to practice with

I'd file it away with the barf light but it may make a good HD weapon if left open on the night stand or possibly a decent device for car carry

[USGuns]

The Pepperball SA-4 I detailed in this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=313756
is vastly superior to this thing!