[USGuns]

I am researching a pepper spray for my wife to carry and as part of my research I ran across this link which showed the stated SHU ratings for various manufacturers and the ACTUAL lab-tested ratings:
http://www.pepper-spray-store.com/relatedinfo/pepper-spray-heat.shtml#SHU
The results were quite surprising! :scrutiny:
Sabre Red, Spitfire and Heatwave were all at the top while Fox Labs was near the bottom.

So after much research I have settled on Spitfire:
http://www.spitfire.us/about.htm
It appears to be one of the few that are actually *designed* to be an effective OC dispenser, instead of just using existing and cheap-to-manufacture containers. It is small, ergonomic, has natural pointability, is refillable, top real-world SHU rating, easy to practice with, made in USA, affordable refills, etc. To me it seems vastly superior to anything else out there as a complete package but doesn't seem to be quite as popular as some of the other brands? :confused:

:evil:

[USGuns]

Well my wife's Spitfire arrived today. They really are very small and light. She looked through all the instructions and was pretty happy with the unit overall. After some practicing she's looking forward to having it with her at all times when out and about. Can't ask for anymore than that! :D

[BUZ]

I can tell you from first hand experience heatwave is crap! Take the spitfire and huck it into the trash, fox and sabre use the finest components!

Fox & sabre are much much worse!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm81VIJUEwI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcqWdgZHik0

[USGuns]

Hi Buz,
Sounds like you've had some personal experience with the Spitfire, can you elaborate more please on why it is crap. What in particular was bad about it? I certainly don't want my wife carrying around something that isn't effective!
Thanks!

[BUZ]

While it is better than nothing there are some flaws with the units.

1) It is not as potent as they claim

2) The units utilize a cone/fog type spray pattern, any head wind and the spray will be basically useless against an attacker due to the reduced range. Also the victim will more then likely get a face full of their own spray! Stream patterns especially heavy spatter stream patterns like fox 5.3 uses is generally not effected by a light head wind.

3) Very limited amount of OC, few sprays and your out!

4) For OC it is critical that the unit shoot @ least eight feet if not ten plus! The key is to spray the attacker then get away. The further the spray reaches the better.

Have been teaching defense classes for many years and have been hosed many a times by all sorts of different sprays and can vouch for the heat/pain created by FOX & SABRE.

I would highly recommend fox 5.3 2oz stream unit or sabre red 1.8-2.0 oz 1.33% MC in stream.



Get one of these for your wife and purchase one or two extra so she can familiarize herself with it, you wouldn't give someone a gun to carry that has never held or fired one would you? The same kinda goes for spray, very important she know the spray patten distance ect.

http://www.defensedevices.com/fox-pepper-spray1.html



The only real way to know it's true effectiveness is to test it on yourself or someone you know, take a dose from the spitfire brand and then from the sabre or fox brand and you'll know the difference! Last time I got hit with sabre was a few years back when I was reserve deputy, I swear even though I decontaminated and used sudecon wipes my nostrils & eyes stung for the better part of 8 hours!

[USGuns]

Thanks again for the feedback Buz!
Some folks seem to prefer the cone spray pattern, less need to "aim", even if you both get a dose it's better than missing altogether? Spitfire claims an 8ft range, is that bogus? Also, the 3rd party independent testing claims a very high *actual* SHU rating but I guess we can't believe everything we read.
Just out of curiosity, how long did it take to take effect and then to recover from being sprayed by the Spitfire?
Thanks!

[BUZ]

I have never taken a hit from the spitfire model however an employee of mine has, he has also taken level three sprays like sabre.

He said it was less effective then def-tec which is a weak spray. I have been hit with def-tec and was still fully functional, it still stung like a SOB. For your wife to get even a little blow back would probably incapacitate her, go with a can of sabre or fox (stream) and from ten feet or less she will not miss! Tell her to fire in one second bursts until she hits the attacker in the face (with a good dose)!

Fire the spray in one second bursts, just holding down the trigger can actually make sprays less effective, can dilute the solution!

Little tip, if you periodically test fire the unit you carry be sure that you run the nozzle under hot tap water for 15-20 seconds after your done. This will insure that none of the OC solution has gummed up the tip (which could cause a failure of the unit)!

Sabre uses (HPLC) High Preformance Liquid Chromatography to guarantee the strength of their sprays, nobody else does this!

Here is a vid I saw a while back on youtube, some dumb kids that had no idea what they were getting into! They were sprayed with sabre red 1.33% very nasty stuff! As you will see in the vid sabre is very effective, not only were they blinded but it also effected their breathing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr6LR6iIZEA

Warning there are a couple F bombs throw out in the vid.

[USGuns]

Too bad Fox or Sabre didn't make a dispenser like the Spitfire but with their more effective OC and in a slightly larger size. I find that style of dispenser much more intuitive and easier to manipulate and point, especially in a moment of panic.

[BUZ]

To me there is really no difference, on either one you simply press a button and the OC is dispensed! I would get one of each and see what your wife likes best, if she can fire the sabre or fox cannisters with no problem I would definitely go with that!

Have fired off several of these units, it's a cone/fog patten however it's not a fine mist like most fog style sprays! Very natural feel to it with the trigger and it projects a nice heavy fog. The trigger is exactly like an air duster that you use on your PC, just be sure if you purchase one to remove the little tab on top before you carry it.

http://www.defensedevices.com/fox-labs-trigger-pepper-spray.html

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/urdefense_1962_13122374

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/urdefense_1961_6221665

[BUZ]

This is what I give to my students, fox 5.3, sabre red DPS 1.33% & DPS X-Stream-range! All very effective law enforcement grade sprays!

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5370/p4080012tr1.jpg

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/7722/p1170012wi7.jpg

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/2531/p1170003xb9.jpg

[chief]

Does anyone know anything about the new Kimber "Guardian Angel" OC dispenser and what kind of stuff it dispenses?

[bigdog21]

Sabre hits hard.

[bigdog21]

BUZ

Here is a vid I saw a while back on youtube, some dumb kids that had no idea what they were getting into! They were sprayed with sabre red 1.33% very nasty stuff! As you will see in the vid sabre is very effective, not only were they blinded but it also effected their breathing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr6LR6iIZEA

That was the water based Sabre Red, so much for people saying water based sprays are weak.

[BUZ]

Does anyone know anything about the new Kimber "Guardian Angel" OC dispenser and what kind of stuff it dispenses?


I would not carry a derringer for self defense nor would I carry a guardian angel (two shots and your out)!

If for the first split second you mis with a can of OC you can simply correct and sweep the stream over the perps face with the unit like the guardian angel you cannot!

Here are examples of what I mean!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzkd_GvTe5Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnyuSQ5sM2Y

[USGuns]

All these videos are pretty handy, eh? ;) Good thing there are plenty of people out there who are willing to let themselves be videotaped while getting pepper sprayed! :evil:

[MrTuffPaws]

I replaced my wifes old Fox with Spitfire. Much better package and delivery system IMO. Spitfire also has the advantage of having refills and practice canisters for dirt cheap.

One of these days, I am going to have her dose me with it and see just how much fun Spitfire is.

Fox just needs to offer something in the same size and I would switch back.

[USGuns]

Another nice advantage of the Spitfire is the relatively kid-proof design. We let both our 5yr old and 3yr old try to spray some of the practice canister and they couldn't get it to go.

Spitfire just needs to come up with a larger design and, as was suggested in this thread, improve the effectiveness of their OC formula.

[USGuns]

BUZ,
I like the idea of the trigger spray top but once you remove the safety tab to carry the spray around, isn't it just a matter of pressing the trigger to dispense the OC? No safety mechanism like the flip-top lid some dispensers have or the sliding button of the Spitfire? Seems like if you just carry it in your pocket then an OC accidental discharge is just waiting to happen and if you carry it in some kind of holster, that will slow down your response time and result in a bigger carry package???
Thanks!

[BUZ]

Na you really have to give the trigger a good squeeze to fire it, you wouldn't have a problem carrying in a pocket or purse.




If you want a small easy to fire unit then why not just go with a fox labs key chain model?

http://www.defensedevices.com/fox12ozharke.html

[USGuns]

Thanks BUZ, I'll check it out. So far there's nothing out there that I've seen yet that knocks my socks off but I think I'm setting my standards too high. We'll see what the future brings in non-lethal self-defense! :scrutiny:

Have you seen this one before? http://www.capstun.com/vexor/index_consumer.html
Claims 15million SHU! What do you think?

[BUZ]

Yes have tested it! They claim 15 million SHU but they don't tell you thats before they mix it.

It is less potent then sabre red!

[USGuns]

Yes have tested it! They claim 15 million SHU but they don't tell you thats before they mix it.

It is less potent then sabre red!
Well that's not very ethical of them! :mad:
There needs to be some standards, as I'm sure folks have probably been complaining about for years! :banghead:

[bigdog21]

there are standards but not everybody abides by them and they are not required standards.

heres a link to the association of defense spray manufacturers.
http://www.pepperspray.org/

[USGuns]

there are standards but not everybody abides by them and they are required standards.

heres a link to the association of defense spray manufacturers.
http://www.pepperspray.org/
Unfortunately it looks like there's only 3 members right now ...

[Stretchman]

When I certified in OC spray, we were taught that SHU was basically garbage, and that LEO grade canisters were different in that they were much more directed.

Best kind to get in the kind with the highest levels of OC. That's the stuff that incapacitates. We used to use Cap Stun, but it was part of our escalation of force procedure. For civilian use a cone spray is better than a stream. Firstly, the stream is hard to direct, and normally OC is only used to gain control of the situation. For SD work, cone sprays are better. The more OC, the better. Collateral damage? Who cares? Spray, pray, DD.

Indoors or outdoors, makes no difference. Spay or foam, doesn't make a difference. Get the stuff that drops them completely, causes them to choke, and takes everyone around them out too. Then run for your life.

[ultramar]

Yes, SHU is a medieval and meaningless "measurement." Ridiculous!

Re Stretchman's remark that, "For civilian use a cone spray is better than a stream," there are two distinct disadvantages to cone spray, for civilian use or LE.

First, if the wind is in your face, the spray is likely to be too!

Second, you pay a range penalty. I want to blind and incapacitate the bad guy as far away from me as possible, and straight stream does that.

[USGuns]

There are good arguments presented in this thread both for and against Cone spray and Stream. Personally I think any time I will need pepper spray will be at a very close range and am not sure what kind of effect the wind will have at those intimate distances and so I find myself leaning towards Cone spray but it's a tough call, both make sense!

Maybe someone needs to come up with an OC dispenser where you can choose between Cone and Stream ... by default, leave it on Cone spray and if you have the distance you might have time to flip it to stream. :D

[ultramar]

Excellent and original idea to have a "cone/spray choice" nozzle, and it doesn't sound like it would take a rocket scientist to invent one either.

:D

New subject: There is a brand called "Streetwise" marketed as what they claim is a 17% OC spray, in various sizes, including a 4-oz. LE.

Does anybody know if the claimed percentage is truthful? Has anybody had field experience with one of these?

:confused:

[bigdog21]

heres a review of streetwise from an oc instructor i know.
So far, with what I have found.. The MSDS sheet on this product is hard to find, but I located it.

The reason it rates at 17%, is that it is not a OC (Oleoresin Capsicum) stand alone. The composition follows at 3% OC (Oleoresin Capsicum), and 3% CS (Orthoclorobenzalmalonitrile). The combination of these three ingrediants is what gives it a longer SHU, but the rating for it is still 2 Million SHU. Its more than an irritant, its also "Membrane Irritant" and causes swelling in the nasal passages for short durations. The residual effects of these chemicals will include increased amounts of sinus release. The heat effects are the same as standard OC sprays. Its the duration that is different. Because it has CS in its composition, it remains on the body long after exposure, and even with water and air decontamination. Other aspects to a combo spray like this, is that it stains clothing, and does not wash out with just water. You will need to wash in laundry, by itself, with soap a few times. The clothes will hold the irritant for a period of time, just as any other stain.

The purpose to combination sprays, such as this, is that CS by itself, takes 5-30 seconds to take effect, where OC can take only a couple seconds.

CS is not consumable, it that is of concern, and the product you requested, has an actual "First Aid" packet that comes with it, or should as described in the brochure.

Other side effects of CS exposure, are groin pains, arm pit pains, and unlike OC, CS will permanantly destroy contact lenses.

The projectant of "StreetWise Pepper Spray", is not disclosed. I am concerned about this.

The severe side effects of CS exposure are risk for respiratory compromise or asphyxiation, according to the Department of Justice.

I am not bashing CS or CN, as it is great for its uses, but CS and CN are also flammable. THey are not EDW (Electronically Deployed Weapon) safe.

IMO: I would stay away from it. Its a no-name brand, that has chemical solvent carrier compositions, and in court, will kill you, especially when operating in the security industry. The damage CS and CN can do to personal effects, such as clothing and contact lenses, can possibly be charged to you. Other problem I had with StreetWise, they do not provide a LOT Production sheet upon request. FOX, Sabre, Def-Tech, United Chemical all do, in order to provide court action against you as another safety step.

[brent376]

Spitfire is a very good pepper spray and it is one of a few (Sabre Red, DPS X Stream Range) that is consistantly hot. The HPLC test results dont lie and with Spitfire about the same heat rating as Sabre Red you know you are getting a very hot product. The Spitfire also has a good base that evaporates very fast alowing the product to work almost on contact.

Per the NIJ study pepper spray was most used at distances of three feet or less. A good pepper spray does not have to shoot 15 feet to be effective. Spitfire was made to be used on someone during a sudden blitz assault and it has a 360 degree valve so it sprays any direction and can hit an attacker who has you in a bear hug.

[Mike L]

I recently purchased wildfire pepper spray from http://www.dz-gear.com. It claims to be the hotest. 18 percent pepper spray! Is this not effective or overated as dicussed above?

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Funny how most of the top ones, including the spitfire you mention, only deliver about 10% of the stated SHUs (2 million vs. 210K), and then they go DOWN from there. :(

[NorestRDS]

wildfire is not horrible stuff , its just not all that refined and doesnt have a high capsaicinoid percentage . It will surely do the job though . But no it is not the hottest.

[hornblower]

Unless I am reading the Independent Test Results on Pepper Sprays that you listed in your original post, the ratings for Sabre Red and Spitfire are identical.

I have the Spitfire unit and I found the practice cylinder a good idea.
Fortunately, I have not had to spray anyone, but the Spitfire is very convenient to carry and would be hard to accidently discharge.
I have no experience with the Sabre system.

[brentfoto]

Buz and others:

Look at the youtube video below and please advise if at the very beginning they were doused with the STREAM or was it the CONE (FOG). I don't know enough to tell, but would guess it's the STREAM, because I do not see any 'fog' per se, and due to comment, below.

Anyway, it was pretty impressive delivery.

BUZ Quote:
If for the first split second you mis with a can of OC you can simply correct and sweep the stream over the perps face with the unit like the guardian angel you cannot!

Here are examples of what I mean!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm81VIJUEwI

[NorestRDS]

i have the h20 water based stream and i like it . however the Sabre h20 series of sprays always come one size bigger then they are supposed to . thew 3.3 oz comes in a 4oz can and the 1.8 comes in a 3 oz . that is really crappy of them , but obviously im sure they have there reasons.

[bigdog21]

i have the h20 water based stream and i like it . however the Sabre h20 series of sprays always come one size bigger then they are supposed to . thew 3.3 oz comes in a 4oz can and the 1.8 comes in a 3 oz . that is really crappy of them , but obviously im sure they have there reasons.
The reason is to fit law enforcement pepper spray holsters. The belt holsters only come in sizes that fit the mk3 , 2 ounces, and mk4, 4 ounces, for duty use. So they had to keep the can sizes the same.The Sabre DPS and H20 formulations were made for law enforcement, if you look on the back of the can it says to be used by law enforcement , corrections, military and security personnel but private citizens can use it as well.

[bigdog21]

Buz and others:

Look at the youtube video below and please advise if at the very beginning they were doused with the STREAM or was it the CONE (FOG). I don't know enough to tell, but would guess it's the STREAM, because I do not see any 'fog' per se, and due to comment, below.

Anyway, it was pretty impressive delivery.

Its a heavy stream.

[brentfoto]

Thanks, dog.

I recently learned there are at least 4 types, depending upon manufacturer:
1. Stream
2. Fog
3. Cone
4. Gel or foam

[brent376]

Try Vexor from the maker of cap Stun. It has 15 million SHU's and is the hottest and most intense spray I have ever experienced. It also works in the coldest weather and hottest desert.

[NorestRDS]

except the vexor consumer model is clumsy at best and awkward to boot. try asking there service rep about what the actual ONH is cause they stutter around and say its a trade secret .

[brent376]

OTN heat is a gimmick. The only true measurement of pungency is the concentration of Capsaicinoids in the formula. You won’t see the OTN heat rating on a Govt canister because it is manufacturers playing the numbers game. You wont find it on the military sprays or bear sprays. Vexor removes all the inactive oleoresin and waxes leaving only pure capsaicin in the formula. No other brand has this and it’s patented. You have to very carefully consider the inactive ingredients in the formula as well. Most of the chemicals in the cheep sprays were never designed to be sprayed in the face or eyes of someone. Most actually reduce the inflammatory effects of the OC. The challenge was to develop a non flammable product that was extremely effective, free of carcinogens and one that does not reduce the inflammatory effects of the capsaicinoids in the spray. Before Vexor the best sprays had to contain Isopropyl Alcohol which is highly flammable and can’t be used with Tasers.

Most sprays are 2 million before being mixed and the Vexor is 15 million. I have been exposed to Fox Labs, Sabre Red, Def Tech. and Spitfire. Vexor was the hottest and most brutal I have ever been exposed to. Zarc is the inventor of OC technology and they invented the First Spray Cap Stun. All the other companies are pepper clones. This is why Zarc products are used by the FBI, US Army US Border Patrol exclusively, as well as over 3,000 agencies in 40 countries. They also don’t use dangerous chemicals and cheep UV dyes (silly gimmick because cops don’t walk around with black lights in their pockets or cars) in there sprays like the generic brands. Everything in Zarc Products is cosmetic or food grade. They have documented reports on their website from the FBI, US Army, US Department of Corrections and several others that give their products a 95% effectiveness rating. Mot sprays are 54%-80%. The reports don’t lie. See for yourself.

[brent376]

Also the Vexor Consumer model has the same micro spin actuator as the Govt model so I dont know what makes you think its clumsy.

[NorestRDS]

the fact that you have to push in a safety and then pull a trigger and the trigger to exposed to leave the safety on all the time and just throw it in a cargo pocket . If Vexor decides to wise up and throw a flip top on a 2 oz model that gets more then five bursts , i will buy it right up. you would never see me or anyone i care carrying a model that looks like acne medicine applicator.




http://www.vexor.com/images/ConCanister.jpg

[NorestRDS]

out of the nozzle heat is a huge factor . its the after dilution heat . its the business end. if 15 million shus hit your face it would turn it into a blister filled puss ball . 15m is the pre dilution . Just like most sprays that claim 2 mil shus that does not come out of the can . 80,000 - 250,000 come out . capsasinoids also plays a factor in how fast the burn picks up .

[RX-178]

I have to say that I have actually paid for classes and training in the use of this stuff, and as a result of these classes, I can't bring myself to carry any.

In one scenario, an instructor tells you a random address or location to remember, then you're given a cell phone, which you put in your pocket, belt pouch, or however you normally carry it. Then you're sprayed, and you're required to dial 911, and still be coherent enough to tell them the address you were given earlier.

In another, using beamhit training targets and weapons. The instructor wears a target, then sprays you. You then have to draw your weapon and hit the target, while the instructor moves around, or sometimes even attempts to disarm you.


I don't recall what brands I got hit with, but they all certainly worked! :eek:

If you carry any of this stuff, make sure you also carry the decon wipes with you!

[brent376]

Vexor also now has a twist top model that fits on a key ring and delivers a powerful cone spray. I have this unit on my keys and the Micro Spin in the car. With a little practice the Micro Spin cap is not hard to use. IT is also made that way so if you drop it in a fight or the assailant tries to use it against you he won’t be able to or it will take him some time to deliver the product. When you grab the spray in a firm grip it naturally takes the safety off and readies the unit to be fired.

The fact that it is 15 million SHU before it is mixed tells you how hot the product is. I have spoke with several officers who use this spray and they have said it surpasses anything they currently have seen in use. Any product that uses pure capsaicinoids is going to be much hotter than a product that is filled with 2-10% oil and waxes. The difference in reaction time is also a good factor with Vexor. Most sprays have a gradual build up of heat but vexor burns at its full potential the moment it hits the face. Plus with the Cone spray pattern since it has no oil it fires a very fine atomized cloud that is slow to dissipate.

Two other devices I have heard good things about are the Taser C2 and the Tiger light T100 pepper spray flashlight combo.

[brentfoto]

RX-178 I have to say that I have actually paid for classes and training in the use of this stuff, and as a result of these classes, I can't bring myself to carry any.

In one scenario, an instructor tells you a random address or location to remember, then you're given a cell phone, which you put in your pocket, belt pouch, or however you normally carry it. Then you're sprayed, and you're required to dial 911, and still be coherent enough to tell them the address you were given earlier.

In another, using beamhit training targets and weapons. The instructor wears a target, then sprays you. You then have to draw your weapon and hit the target, while the instructor moves around, or sometimes even attempts to disarm you.


I don't recall what brands I got hit with, but they all certainly worked!

If you carry any of this stuff, make sure you also carry the decon wipes with you!
June 8th, 2008 08:29 AM


I don't quite understand your point. Why WOULDN'T you carry? Your decision not to carry is not supported by your facts. Your facts suggest that one should indeed carry, unless it's a personal decision that you would not want to subject an attacker to such non-lethal force, which I can not fathom. The overall result is better than killing the guy, considering the moral, legal, great financial and emotional consequences.

[RX-178]

Yes, it's a personal decision. I do feel better knowing that if I had to use it, I have the training to use it more effectively, but there were enough drills regarding getting inadvertently hit by your own sprays (such as when the situation goes into a grapple or brawl). I have trained in martial arts, so I personally feel that I'd be better off not having to end up dealing with an incapacitating spray going off while I'm in a fistfight with someone.

I know it works, and I don't mean to sound like I'm not recommending it as a self defense tool. It is a VERY good self defense tool. But if you use it, buy decontamination wipes and keep them with you whenever you have the spray on you. I'd recommend not even carrying it if you do not have decon wipes available.

[brentfoto]

Good suggestion. I have the wipes, but never carry them.

My new plan will be to leave them in the car, but I won't carry them on my person, too much PITA. I hope they'll not be ruined from the heat.

[NorestRDS]

i have those sudecon wipes and used them once. i thought they were no real help . made my face feel like i put a diluted elmers glue all over it as well. but i guess on the street the only thing equal to a wipe would be a bottle of water and a strong will to perserve.

[BUZ]

Vexor is the best ha what a laugh! I have been exposed to vexors strongest spray and it wasn't as bad as sabre red DPS. The DPS actually welted my face it's so nasty!

Vexor manufactures their spray so they don't effect the respatory system.

Vexor = overpriced junk!

Would take sabre over vexor any day of the week.

[brentfoto]

Is the Sabre Red DPS available to members of the general public or only LE/Military?

[Pontif]

One of the biggest issues that I have had with sprays is the limited distance/pressure that "usually" accompanies the typical smaller cannisters. In the "bear" sprays, it is not uncommon to find the effective distances of 20 - 25 feet. Unfortunately, the container is the size of a small fire extinguisher.

I am ashamed to admit it, but I had this discussion about 2 months ago with one of the more established members. He gave me the name of a company that had effective OTN #'s and excellent reach. I will find it and post it for feedback.

[NorestRDS]

Vexor is the best ha what a laugh! I have been exposed to vexors strongest spray and it wasn't as bad as sabre red DPS. The DPS actually welted my face it's so nasty!

Vexor manufactures their spray so they don't effect the respatory system.

Vexor = overpriced junk!

Would take sabre over vexor any day of the week.


first off if you have gotten exposed to their "strongest " you would know it has .16% MORE capsaicinoids then Sabre Red 1.33% VS 1.49% let alone the THIRTEEN MILLION SHU difference and its more refined than FOX labs . I bet the most you ever got hit with was a misguided spritz of black pepper by a clumsy waiter.

[NorestRDS]

I am ashamed to admit it, but I had this discussion about 2 months ago with one of the more established members. He gave me the name of a company that had effective OTN #'s and excellent reach. I will find it and post it for feedback.


can i assume this is what you are talking about??? DPS A.K.A. Duped Peoples Spray




http://www.selfdefence.com/pepper/DPS/images/group1.jpg

[brentfoto]

I think the DPS means "Dual Propellant System" in re Sabre Red.

[BUZ]

first off if you have gotten exposed to their "strongest " you would know it has .16% MORE capsaicinoids then Sabre Red 1.33% VS 1.49% let alone the THIRTEEN MILLION SHU difference and its more refined than FOX labs . I bet the most you ever got hit with was a misguided spritz of black pepper by a clumsy waiter.



I always get a laugh from the kids that get all their info from google and youtube. I'm a deputy sheriff and have been exposed to many sprays (have you)?

Like I said vexor is manufactured (NOT) to effect the respiratory system, sabre does! Also sabre burns every bit as bad as the LE models of verxor and then some. My partner use to carry the Vexor MK4 1.45MC cans and switched to sabre red when he saw people skin welting up after I deployed sabre red DPS.

Vexor also makes the cheap cap stun which is also garbage, no other company test their products like sabre (their QC) is unmatched. They even test fire each and every can before it leaves.

All these numbers are to confuse you and that they seem to do well! Do you think that it's 15 million SHU after it leaves the nozzle and after it has been in contact with other chemicals in the cannister. Sabre is hotter after it leaves the nozzle and thats a fact. Beside what the percentage in the V7? 1% as apposed to 10%.

[NorestRDS]

yeah i have been exposed to many different kinds including vexor as of last night and it did affect my respiratory tract . i also puked an entire hoagie 3 seconds afterwards . while i didnt see much of a difference between vexor and fox labs . It kicked up the heat alot faster than fox .

[brent376]

Buzz you also said that Spitfire was junk yet when Lab tested it had 1.4% Capsaicin and Related Capsaicinoids. I know the president of Spitfire and they have every single batch HPLC tested and it is consistently hot. They take great pride in their business and go to great lengths to make sure it is hot and has a precise concentration of Capsaicin and Related Capsaicinoids. He is also sprayed with every batch to make sure it works. He started the Spitfire company to help people and to develop a dispenser that someone could actually use under stress and have with them. Most people think you need a large 2-4 ounce can for everyday use when it clearly says in the Sabre instructor course that if you are unable to effect the assailant after 3 bursts then its time to switch to a different force option. The truth is in LE applications and self defense situations 1 shot in the face is more than enough and in fact the less spray you use the better because of the problem with overspray. Do you actually walk around in public with a large can of OC in your hand all the time? NO! But with a Spitfire you can have it with you all the time in your hand ready to go and its natural to carry.

Cap Stun is not junk. When I interned with Omaha Police it was very effective. Every person who was sprayed (even a guy on meth) was unable to see and was subdued. Cap Stun is used by the US Border Patrol, FBI and over 3,000 departments in 40 countries.

I agree with you that Sabre Red is great stuff but did you know that the same formula used in Spitfire is used in Sabre Red? Spitfire also has the 360 degree valve that sprays any direction. So how can you say that Spitfire and Vexor are junk when they all have 1.0-1.4% Capsaicinoids. BTW Vexor is available in a cone that does affect the respiratory system. I know because I have experienced. To be honest with you all of these products from good companies (SEC Sabre & Sabre Red, DPS, Vexor, Cap Stun, Spitfire) are all good products that are HPLC tested so they are always Hot.

[Floppy_D]

A "Scoville Unit" is the amount of spritzes from a spray bottle containing a sugar-water mixture it takes to neutralize a burn.... giving a jalapeno a score between 2k and 8k units. I don't remember the numbers, but back on the boat, during OC qual time, the reactions varied from mild to silly. While adminstering the spray, I remember that it took the typical person an average of an hour to be able to drive home. Before that, they were a sweaty, slobbering stinging mess. There was no trick out of the misery, but the best after-spray solution was Johnson's Baby Shampoo, applied liberally all over everywhere. I imagine that there are probably humans who are immune to these effects, but they are probably immune to bullets and lasers too. I can eat some really spicy food, but my eyes can't.

[Defensory]

Posted by brent376:
Most people think you need a large 2-4 ounce can for everyday use when it clearly says in the Sabre instructor course that if you are unable to effect the assailant after 3 bursts then its time to switch to a different force option. The truth is in LE applications and self defense situations 1 shot in the face is more than enough and in fact the less spray you use the better because of the problem with overspray.

Ever heard of attacks by MULTIPLE assailants, Brent? They're quite common, and also a very good reason NOT to carry tiny cannisters.

You certainly don't need a bear spray sized cannister, but one that is large enough for 7 or 8 bursts simply makes good sense. Just like having a handgun with 7 or 8 rounds makes better sense than having one with only three rounds.

The medium sized cannisters are also generally easier to hold and operate than the puny ones.

Also, if you use pepper foam or gel rather than spray, you don't have to worry near as much about overspray. Foam and gel are both suitable for indoor use, while spray isn't.

[brent376]

Yes I have heard of multiple attackers. The compact canisters will work fine for most people. The spitfire has 4 seconds of continuous spray or 8 1/2 second bursts and because there is no actuator button that the spray has to travel through it sprays a wide pattern. I have a Tulsa Police Capitan who works at our bank and got 4 Spitfires including one for himself. It’s not like in the movies where you are busting a crowd with an OC canister. If you have more than two attackers you better be using something besides pepper spray.

I used to carry a large 2 ounce unit on my person and the last time I needed OC it was in my holster and I had no time to get to it. So the large can did not do me any good when a smaller easily carried and effective unit would have been fine. This is why both Sabre and Fox Labs make small canisters. Trust me if the small canisters did not work they would not be sold by the largest and most trusted OC companies.

Next time someone says that the smaller canisters don’t work I would love to ask that person if they would volunteer for a demonstration with that person on the receiving end of the unit. Trust me they won’t want to do anything for 45 minutes. When someone knocks a smaller unit I also respond by asking “Where is your pepper spray right now"? They usually say in the car, in my pocket in my holster. I can say mine is right here in my hand ready to go.

www.spitfire.us

http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PDS&Category_Code=PEPP

http://www.safehomeconsulting.com/gpage2.html

[brent376]

BTW The Sabre Red DPS canister with 2 ounces of spray in the cone pattern empties in 6 seconds

The Spitfire empties in 4 seconds

Woop dee doo

Per the NIJ Study OC is used at distances of 3 feet or less 96% of the time. I can get both products in someones eyes at that distance with one burst.

[conw]

Haven't read the whole thread, but why would you trust a "chart" providing information that glorifies a particular brand-name...when that chart is on a site that sells that brand product?

[brent376]

The Lab tests were done by a certified lab. Sabre also uses Cromtec Labs to do their tests and the results were very similar to these companies’ results. These are independent labs that do this testing not the pepper spray company.

http://www.aoac.org/