9mm: the latest advances in ammo


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wheelgunslinger
August 29, 2007, 10:46 PM
I've been looking to update my carry weapon to a high capacity autoloader and keep hearing from the fans of the 9mm that there are much more improved rounds on the market for sd purposes.
What are these new fangled rounds and which ones are best for SD with the 9mm?
Of course, we're speaking of plain old 9 mm. :)

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Deer Hunter
August 29, 2007, 11:06 PM
Take a look at the Federal HST line of ammunition. Here's a quick write-up.

http://www.le.atk.com/pdf/Pierce%20County%20Workshop.pdf

Gold Dot and Ranger ammo works well too, but HST seems to do incredibly well.

jonnyc
August 30, 2007, 01:13 AM
You can't go wrong with Gold Dots in 124 grain, regular or +P. I've also heard some interesting things about Corbon Power-Ball.

Soybomb
August 30, 2007, 01:50 AM
If it has a big name on it, you'll be fine. Try a handful and see which shoots best for you.

wheelgunslinger
August 30, 2007, 08:38 AM
I'm specifically asking about newer choices in 9mm ammo. What are the latest and greatest, and why are they better than previous loads?
I'm asking because if 9 has progressed as a caliber due to certain modern loadings it bears research and consideration as a SD choice.

But, sifting through the various 9mm offerings is a big task and I'd rather have users point me in the right direction of where to look.
Deer Hunter's link has some good information.
Anything else?

dhoomonyou
August 30, 2007, 08:51 AM
DEER HUNTER, Thanks.

looks very interesting.

I do not feel "underpowered" with a 9mm

40SW
August 30, 2007, 09:14 AM
Remington Golden Saber 124gr JHP. Still my number one choice for defensive 9mm despite newer advances.

sfc123
August 30, 2007, 09:38 AM
"But, sifting through the various 9mm offerings is a big task and I'd rather have users point me in the right direction of where to look."

Wheel,

If you don't want to think for yourself then:

Go get Corbon DPX +P 9mm.

Buy 300 rounds and run at least 50 to 100 through each magazine.

If you have no problems then:
buy another 40 to 80 rounds,
load up your magazines,
slap a magazine into the well,
rack one into the chamber,
eject the magazine,
top off that magazine,
slam it back into the well,
pull hard on the magazine to make sure it's in place and your GTG.

On the other hand, I would suggest you take your life a bit more seriously and derive your own convictions based on your own best research. Antedotal is all you are going to get around here.

If you are looking for a more general response then look for a HP that is least in the 120s in weight and can handle glass, metal panelling, and still expand properly.

Onmilo
August 30, 2007, 09:56 AM
I guess I am an old fuddy duddy because I am quite comfortable using 124 full metal jacket bullets for self defense but then again I have a great deal of respect for Federal 115 jacketed hollow points.

The 115 hollowpoints will not overpenetrate as much as the fmj bullets so, bonus to them.

Jim Watson
August 30, 2007, 11:04 AM
That business of "Buy 300 rounds" is definitely correct, but it kind of works against keeping up with the bullet of the month, when the makers charge a 50 price for a box of 20 superbullets. I have a good supply of Federal hollowpoints and know they function in my guns and are likely to expand to some extent. I will stay with them until something clearly better turns up.

the naked prophet
August 30, 2007, 02:24 PM
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_37

Take your pick. I personally prefer the 147 grain Gold Dot @ 1120 fps, but the other Gold Dots (124 grain @ 1300 fps, or the 115 grain @ 1400 fps) I'm sure would be just fine.

Gold Dots expand well through a large range of velocity, and expand well even through heavy clothing. DoubleTap loads them faster than anyone else without going higher than +P (Buffalo Bore loads are about equivalent, but +P+).

Any reputable manufacturer should use flash-suppressing powders. Fire a few rounds of UMC green-box JHP some night, and you'll understand why flash suppressing powder is important.

sfc123
August 30, 2007, 04:04 PM
"That business of "Buy 300 rounds" is definitely correct, but it kind of works against keeping up with the bullet of the month, when the makers charge a 50 price for a box of 20 superbullets. "

I figure that when I've got thousands of dollars in guns, and few thousand dollars in training a year, that I'm wasting everyone's time if I don't get the best round possible and make sure it runs in my gun.

I am on the road a lot and so glass and metal panelling penetration is important to me. Actually I think it ought to be important to everyone because the majority of BS goes down in parking lots and gas stations.

There isn't a round of the month. They come up with something compelling to review everything three or four years.

Deanimator
August 30, 2007, 04:42 PM
I like to stick with the basics. I keep the Winchester White Box 147gr. jhps in my Glock 19 and Browning Highpower. They get high marks for penetration AND expansion, they're very accurate, and they're under $10 at Walmart in _50_ round boxes.

TOADMAN
August 30, 2007, 05:20 PM
Deanimator, my thoughts exactly... Although, at gun shows, I do buy the Georgia Arms 147grn+P Gold Dots rated at 1050fps, 50 round bags for $ 11 a bag - give or take 50 cents....

TOADMAN
August 30, 2007, 05:57 PM
Deanimator, my thoughts exactly... Although, at gun shows, I do buy the Georgia Arms 147grn+P Gold Dots rated at 1050fps, 50 round bags for $ 11...

L-Frame
August 30, 2007, 08:25 PM
My favorite load is Corbon's 115 +P at 1350 fps. Speaking in general about the 115 loads moving at between 1300-1350 fps Massad Ayoob stated " when you see an autopsy report that indicates the cause of death as 'cardiac maceration', and there was only one round fired, you can be pretty sure that it was one of these rounds."

HankB
August 30, 2007, 08:36 PM
I'm specifically asking about newer choices in 9mm ammo. What are the latest and greatest, and why are they better than previous loads?
The main reason the latest and greatest are better is because 1) they spent more time and money on marketing; and 2) they increase the maker's profit.

Seriously, a +P or +P+ load from any of the major makers' (Winchester, Federal, Remington, Speer) premium lines will make me a happy camper so long as it's reliable and accurate in MY pistol. Weights between 115 and 127 are fine.

golden
August 31, 2007, 12:40 AM
Start with a round that feeds reliablely in you gun. Most modern U.S. ammo will feed in a modern (1985) or later gun.
Then pick the most accurate. Just make sure you can get enough of the ammo you choose.
FEDERAL HYDROSHOK, WINCHESTER RANGER, SPEER GOLDDOT and REMINGTON GOLDEN SABER have all proven themselves with police. So go with the one that works best in your gin.
I use FEDERAL HST +P and HYDROSHOK. I found the HST for half the price of GOLD DOT ammo and I was issued the HYDROSHOK, so I still have plenty of it.
AVOID THE 147 GRAIN AMMO. IT IS A STEP DOWN FROM THE 115 AND 124 GRAIN AMMO. Just my opinion

You will do better by spending the money and then the time practicing and maybe taking a combat course from a reputable school or instructor.

Jim

351 WINCHESTER
August 31, 2007, 07:28 PM
Pesonally I'd skip corbon. I've had quality control issues with their ammo in the past. The golden sabre, gold dot and ranger are all awesome loads. I'd stick with the 124 gr. for adequate penetration.

benEzra
August 31, 2007, 09:30 PM
I like Cor-Bon 115gr +P.

jaydubya
August 31, 2007, 09:53 PM
No one has mentioned it so I will: log on to www.hipowersandhandguns.com. That is Stephen Camp's site and, if there is a 9mm king, it is he. Great stuff on all sorts of handgun ammo, but particularly in 9x19 stuff.
Cordially, Jack

hotsauce
August 31, 2007, 09:55 PM
Dont forget Extreme Shok! The box has a bunch of cool lookin guys on it and its very expensive so it must be good. :rolleyes:

CaesarI
August 31, 2007, 10:38 PM
keep hearing from the fans of the 9mm that there are much more improved rounds on the market for sd purposes.

Might I inquire as to where you keep hearing this from? Or if you heard it from a particular place?

In any event, usually when someone says something along the lines of "a 9mm is perfectly fine for self-defense purposes with modern well-designed ammunition" they are referencing ammunition produced post 1986 with an eye towards meeting the new standards established by the FBI, and later organizations.

1986 saw an incident with the FBI where officers died in a firefight with some well armed and tactically proficient bank-robbers. The FBI blamed the death of the officers on the failure of ammunition design. Prior to 1986 the FBI chose ammunition based on the RII (Relative Incapacitation Index) which favored expanding ammunition, but took no account for bullet penetration, or for reliability of expansion. The FBI testing protocol and IWBA testing protocol test for all of these factors. The Hydrashock line of bullets tested very well in initial testing, and consequently sold like hot-cakes for years (and still do), despite the fact that other bullet designs far eclipse the outdated hydrashock. The process of development has been evolutionary, every few years a new design of the same bullet, or a new bullet design entirely gets just a little bit better. It's been over 20 yrs since 1986, and this tiny incremental changes add up to quite a bit.

The upshot of all of this is that bullets that meet IWBA and FBI test protocol expand *much* more reliably than older bullet designs (because they were designed to do so), and are actually designed to penetrate a set minimum distance, in addition to expanding. A well designed 9mm bullet today is much better than .45 FMJ, older JHPs, and newer JHPs that are poorly designed.

The downside is that not all bullets are designed to perform to IWBA or FBI standards, and there's no easy to find label that will indicate if a cartridge meets that standard, you have to find evidence someone has conducted the testing yourself.

If you're a police officer, you can ask the FBI, us civvies are kinda on our own. Lucky for you, I've got a line on a link:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964

Presto.

As others have suggested, before deciding on a load it may be a pretty swell idea to buy a bunch of that particular sort of load, to be sure your weapon digests the ammo without a hiccup. FMJ that feeds beats the heck out of "thor's hammer" that jams. More important of course is how well you can place shots on target under stress.

-Morgan

wheelgunslinger
September 1, 2007, 12:52 AM
Very good information Morgan. Thanks.
It's exactly what I was asking for.

You too jaydubya.

2TransAms
September 1, 2007, 01:24 AM
A well designed 9mm bullet today is much better than .45 FMJBlasphemy! Never!;)

My Glock 19 is loaded with 124 grain Gold Dot +p. It's 100% reliable in my Glock,recoil and follow-up shots are easily managable(+p 9mm is still easier to shoot than a .40 imo),and it's hell on water jugs. No pictures,but I've dug some out of the ground that looked like they should be in a Speer advertisement.

Bobo
September 1, 2007, 04:38 PM
I'd trust these equally well as far as penetration and expansion are concerned.
Cor-Bon DPX
Remington Golden Saber
Winchester Ranger
Speer Gold Dot

Many of these come in various bullet weights and powder loads.

Buy a box of as many different brands and types as possible, then test each one in the exact gun you're going to use for reliability, accuracy, and recovery speed (and maybe factor in price last).

critrxdoc
September 2, 2007, 09:03 PM
Any of the SD rounds from the major manufacturers will work very well. It's splitting hairs between them. With most of the major brands you should get 10-12 inches of penetration and probable expansion except perhaps the 147gr depending on who you believe and what you hit.

critrxdoc
September 9, 2007, 10:11 PM
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=121

Doubletap ammo is about as good as it gets. Black Hills has some good stuff as well. A hot 147 or 124 should put the 9mm on reasonable footing

weregunner
September 9, 2007, 11:21 PM
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1020.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=723.0
This is true for any 9mm. pistol.

Gun Slinger
September 10, 2007, 12:57 AM
Seems like the general consensus is that if you buy any of the latest premium grade SD ammunition from any of the large manufacturers you'll be fine. I agree.

My choice for SD ammunition in 9mm (Glock 17 and 19) is the Hornady TAP/CQ 147 gr. JHP (#90285) because it offers the excellent penetration (14"-16") and controlled expansion most suitable for my particular SD needs. It is also exceptionally accurate from my Glock 17 and averages 1025fps/343fpe at the muzzle typically expanding to ~.55" in calibrated ordinance gelatin in my limited testing.


G/S

jeepmor
September 10, 2007, 10:11 AM
Another vote for Double Tap, it's what's in my wife's 9mm for SD. Considering Mr. McNett offers boxes of 50 for what most mfrs sell 20 SD rounds for, it's a win-win. More ammo, faster ammo, how can you argue about that. Mike takes a lot of pride in his products, shoot some, you will see why.
He chooses sound bullets and pushes them faster than anyone else.

Realistically, any SD round that functions flawlessy in said autoloader is adequate. However, if I were that interested in finding the "uber9" round, I'd be sure to shoot them at low light and pick the lowest flashing round that did not have any separation issues as noted in the link on the first page. If we are talking about a truly defensive round, statistics say, it'll almost certainly be used in low light.

I wouldn't even try any of the rounds that had separation issues, not one. I would be thankful for the link because they did some research that you don't have too. And they did a lot of it.

Stephen A. Camp
September 10, 2007, 10:44 AM
Hello, sir. I don't know what 9mm pistol you are considering but maybe the links below might be of some use:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/HiPower127Winchester.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corbon%209mm%20115.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm_hi_power_ammo_selection.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BHP%20and%20147%20gr%20Ammo.htm

Speaking only for myself, my two preferred 9mm "serious" factory loads are:

Winchester 127-gr. Ranger +P+
Corbon 115-gr. DPX +P

Of the ammunition that is more readily available:

Speer 124-gr. GDHP +P
Remington 124-gr. GS +P
(I could also feel pretty darned secure with either of these in their standard pressure loadings as well.)

There are certainly other effective rounds available but such are my choices. That said, I truly believe that the other main ingredients in "effective handgun stopping power" remains being "willing" (as John Wayne remarked in "The Shootist") and having the training and ability to shoot both accurately and quickly.

Best and good luck in your search.

The_Antibubba
September 11, 2007, 07:26 PM
OK, I'm going to throw a slight kink into the discussion: Same question, but not including +P or +P+.

mavracer
September 11, 2007, 08:02 PM
IMHO non +p kings are 147 ranger t or fed HST.the HSTs are a little more feed issue prone.they'ry what I carry in non +p .

WuzYoungOnceToo
September 11, 2007, 08:23 PM
If you don't want to think for yourself then:
Asking for some help and opinions on dealing with mountains of (often conflicting) available information and hype isn't an indication that one doesn't want to think for themselves. Lighten up.

On the other hand, I would suggest you take your life a bit more seriously and derive your own convictions based on your own best research.
Not everyone has the time, resources and/or expertise to conduct exhaustive ballistics research. Many who don't still take their lives every bit as seriously as you take yours (although they generally aren't nearly as uptight and condescending.)

Antedotal is all you are going to get around here.
Or perhaps "anecdotal". But then again, he did get some very useful and informative NON-anecdotal responses as well.

WVleo
September 12, 2007, 11:28 AM
Hi, Hasn't been mentioned I don't think but the crappiest 9mm will work better than the best newest 9mm if the crappy 1 hits the intended target and the newest 1 doesn't . reliabilty and practice are the 2 main ingrediants of a quality 9mm self defense system . But I do shoot the Gold Dots 124gr. .......WVleo

Scorpiusdeus
September 12, 2007, 01:26 PM
I'd add the the Doubletap crowd. I've done round popularity polls at one time or another and every time the actual bullet of choice is Gold Dot. Double Tap uses Gold Dot bullets in their manufacture. It shoots straight and reliably out of every handgun I own.

With regard to this advice: So go with the one that works best in your gin.

I'd just like to add, shaken not stirred. :neener:

Scorpiusdeus
September 12, 2007, 04:51 PM
PS: I SOOOOO got punked for the above typo tease post.

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