How do you train if your range ammo is standard pressure and your carry load is +P


PDA






JLStorm
August 30, 2007, 10:02 PM
Just wondering, I like the idea of a 45ACP 230 grain +p load, but if Im shooting say 500 rounds a month of 45ACP and only 1/10th of that at most with my carry ammunition do both to financial reasons, and the fact that large quantities are becoming increasingly more difficult to find. How would one deal with the different feel and recoilof the +p cry ammo while keeping up the accuracy and speed?

Since I currently only train with around 40 - 50 rounds a month of my carry ammo, I shooting 230 standard pressure for training and 230 standard pressure for carry, so the difference in feel in minimal. It seems very usual for many people to train minimally with carry ammo for the same reasons I do. I know you guys that reload can train all day with hand loaded +p ammo, so this probably doesnt apply to you, but for those that use factory ammunition for practice and carry, I would assume the inconsistency is an issue when it comes to accuracy and multiple shot scenarios.

Any opinions?

If you enjoyed reading about "How do you train if your range ammo is standard pressure and your carry load is +P" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
GTSteve03
August 30, 2007, 10:47 PM
Find hot-loaded practice ammo or carry non +p rounds for defense.

When I carried 124gr +p 9mm Gold Dots, I used Fiocchi 123gr FMJ for cheap practice. Fiocchi is hot stuff, especially in 9mm, that round duplicated the velocity of the Gold Dots for about $.15 per round. About the same price as the weak WWB stuff.

Fiocchi tends to be good practice ammo since it is loaded hotter than standard, even in 45ACP. You could pick some of that up to almost duplicate your carry ammo.

Personally, I now carry 147gr 9mm loads which are already standard pressure so any other 147gr load will duplicate it for practice. Also saves wear/tear on the gun, but it's a Glock so it's not like it'll hurt it either way. :neener:

rosco22
August 30, 2007, 10:48 PM
Unless you're planing on a 100 yard gun fight with a 45 ACP its a non issue . Point of aim + Point of impact at 7 yards .

In my 1911 days it was a 185 +P . Why try and make the 230 go +P when you can get a 185 do the same with less recoil ??

The most imporant thing is .............." Only hit's count " 185 or 230 the target really will not care .

Hypnogator
August 31, 2007, 02:14 AM
It really doesn't matter. Just make sure your +P SD ammo prints to approximately the same POA as the target/practice ammo you use. Trust me -- in a gunfight, you'll never notice the difference!

WeedWhacker
August 31, 2007, 08:20 AM
I practice with 124gr 9mm WWB ammo and carry 124gr +P Gold Dots. During my last ammo reliability test, I'd shot 300 rounds of 124gr +P ammo, then a little more than 200 rounds of 124gr regular pressure ammo, all out of one pistol during one session.

Frankly, I didn't notice any difference.

Keep in mind that +P ammo is only loaded 10% hotter than standard rounds. Perhaps you've been using or thinking of +P+ rounds (which have no standardized pressure)?

Pistol Toter
August 31, 2007, 09:15 AM
If you are carrying hollow points; the data that I have seen indicates that +P does not penetrate as well due to more rapid expansion. Expansion, while an important factor needs to compliment penetration; if you don't reach something vital you somewhat defeat the purpose. It is a balancing act! Like I said, Just Food For Thought.

abarth
August 31, 2007, 09:57 AM
I shoot just as accurate with +p or standard. It is the follow up shot that require a little longer time with +p.

JLStorm
August 31, 2007, 01:38 PM
I should have mentioned, I dont like the idea of +p for its extra speed (I dont think a 230 grain bullet really needs it), I like the idea of it because with the shortages of certain ammo, its MUCH easier to find +p for 45 ACP, than standard pressure.


P.S., its the follow up shots Im worried about, recoil never effects the first shot :)

boomstik45
August 31, 2007, 10:14 PM
If this is a personal weapon and personal ammo (not LE duty equipment), then I say you have two choices.

One, you can buy the plus p stuff and practice with it. There's no use in carrying something you don't shoot if it's going to act differently than what you practice with. Besides, you need to know if that hotter stuff is what functions well in your gun. It needs to be reliable.

Or, you can leave the +p stuff alone and go with the regular loads. Trust me, you don't HAVE to have the +p. You don't need it. Unless you're convinced you need it.

JLStorm
August 31, 2007, 10:48 PM
Or, you can leave the +p stuff alone and go with the regular loads. Trust me, you don't HAVE to have the +p. You don't need it. Unless you're convinced you need it.

Its easier to find than the standard pressure rounds and always in stock, thats why I am tempted to buy it, I know there is a constant steady supply unlike many other standard pressure rounds.

Double Naught Spy
August 31, 2007, 11:49 PM
Its easier to find than the standard pressure rounds and always in stock, thats why I am tempted to buy it, I know there is a constant steady supply unlike many other standard pressure rounds.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. You want to find a good substitute for your standard pressure training ammo so that it will more closely match your +P carry ammo and you train with about 40-50 rounds a month with +P ammo in addition to your regular pressure training ammo. The reason why you carry +P ammo is because you find it is more readily available than standard pressure defensive ammo. Do I have that right?

If so, I think you are going about trying to resolve the wrong issue here. Since you only use 40-50 rounds of defensive ammo per month for training, then you simply need to find somebody with standard pressure defensive ammo and buy it in a larger quantity. You are only going through one 50 round box a month (or two 20 round boxes). So when you find a place with standard pressure defensive ammo that you want, buy 6 months' worth. Then over the course of the next 6 months, you will have plenty of time to find your next batch.

Since you don't want the +P ammo for better performance, then it seems overly complicated to buy +P defensive ammo and then try to find training ammo to match it. You have taken a supply issue and made it into a training issue, only it is a training issue with its own supply issue (trying to find the suitable match for +P ammo to train with). In other words, you seem to be replacing one supply issue with two issues, training and supply.

JLStorm
August 31, 2007, 11:58 PM
That is what I am trying to do, and its damn hard right about now. I buy 500 - 750 rounds at a time. +p is available everywhere, but standard pressure in the few types I use are rarely available, which is why I am considering the +P.

PPGMD
September 1, 2007, 12:42 AM
Once a month I shoot my SD ammo when it's time to rotate it out of my gun.

I have found that it has more recoil, but not that much more, it's also more accurate.

Jack2427
September 1, 2007, 12:46 AM
If you really look at the specs, the +P loads available today from the major ammo builders are no that much hotter in terms of pressure that the non +P loads. Back in the early days of +P loads there really was a difference and the +P loads were up in the area of the old Super Vel loads of the late 60s. But then the lawyers got involved, and most modern +P loads are really not that much in terms of pressure or performance. The NATO 9mm loads are hotter than the +P 9s available now. The botique loads from Buffalo Bore and Georgia Arms are right up in the +P performance range without the pressures. This is made possible by carefully mathing modern propellants with the right bullets and this keep pressures in the "regular" ranges while providing substantially increased oomph on the receiving end.

critrxdoc
September 1, 2007, 08:40 AM
Instead of trying to squeeze more of the 9mm or make it something it's not, folks should just be happy with standard loads or move up to a caliber that will do what they are trying to get out of the 9mm with standard pressures (i.e. 357sig, .40, 10mm, .357mag, etc)

Double Naught Spy
September 1, 2007, 11:01 AM
That is what I am trying to do, and its damn hard right about now. I buy 500 - 750 rounds at a time. +p is available everywhere, but standard pressure in the few types I use are rarely available, which is why I am considering the +P.

Okay, specifically what brands and models of ammo do you want in standard pressure because I am not having any trouble finding .45 acp hollowpoint defensive ammo? In fact, it was damn easy. I did a quick search and found several makes and models of standard pressure 230 gr. ammo in stock. Just go to one of those sites and order your next 6 month or year supply of standard pressure ammo and you are good to go.

www.natchezss.com has standard pressure hollowpoint ammo such as speer gold dot, hornady, and some others. The prices are not great, but they are in stock.

www.cheaperthandirt.com has 50 rd. boxes of Federal Hydrashok 230 gr. in stock, 25 round boxes of Golden Saber, Winchester Supreme SXT, etc.

Sportsmansguide has Golden Saber, and Speer Gold Dot.

Jason_G
September 1, 2007, 12:42 PM
Unless you're planing on a 100 yard gun fight with a 45 ACP its a non issue . Point of aim + Point of impact at 7 yards .

In my 1911 days it was a 185 +P . Why try and make the 230 go +P when you can get a 185 do the same with less recoil ??

The most imporant thing is .............." Only hit's count " 185 or 230 the target really will not care .
Yeah, I like the 185 gr +P, too. I always practice with the same ammo I buy for SD. I wouldn't do it any other way.

Jason

.357 magnum
September 1, 2007, 02:47 PM
I own four .45's and I honestly do not think you need +P in the 230gr load. But where you live standard load availability appears to be an issue. You may ask your favorite retailer to carry a standard load that would also be popular with others. To your original question. At self defense distances there is not enough difference in where you are going to hit to worry about it. I cannot afford a barn full of .45 ammo and it is my favorite caliber. I never shoot beyond the 10 yard mark much anymore. I have noticed my SD ammo is a tad more accurate, but at self defense distances which rarely exceed the 15-25 foot mark. There is not enough difference to worry about your placement. You know the BG is just as dead if you are 1/2 an inch off either way.:evil: In defensive shooting you are aiming center mass. You will be fine doing as you are now.:)

The Best to You and Yours!

Frank

wally
September 1, 2007, 05:15 PM
Unless testing in your gun shows significant POI differences between the +P and standard ammo at your maximum range of interest, I'd not worry about it.

Practice with the cheap stuff and carrry the more potent round. My reason, the few folks I know who've fired shots in anger all said they were so pumped they never even heard the gun go off! So forget about feeling differences in recoil after the adrenalin has kicked in!

Its also instructive to mix the +P and normal ammo in the same magazine, other than the larger muzzle blast, in most of my guns at 10 yards its hard to tell which is which.

--wally.

Newton
September 1, 2007, 06:20 PM
I don't really notice much difference in recoil or point of aim, especially in 9mm. With .45ACP there's a slight difference especially with my Golden Saber 185 gr +P carry load, but it's still only slight and not dramatic.

I'd run a couple boxes of your hot carry load every month or two to test reliability and not worry about the rest. With the price of ammunition these days only Donald Trump can afford to practice with his carry load.

If you enjoyed reading about "How do you train if your range ammo is standard pressure and your carry load is +P" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!