Wealth and the getting thereof


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telomerase
July 6, 2003, 01:44 PM
It would seem from reading a few posts that most THR members are either millionaires, or, at the very least, unmarried. How in the world can you guys afford to take a day off every month to shoot (let alone buy the toys)? Anyway, I'm tired of working two jobs and never getting a day off. What's your secret to wealth?

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another okie
July 6, 2003, 01:58 PM
Who takes days off?

There are 168 hours in the week. If you sleep 56, work 40, groom and intereact with family another 21, eat, sleep and exercise another 21 (three hours a day) that leaves 30 hours totally free, more than a day, or four and a half hours each day. Even if you're working 60 hours a week, which in my book means you have made some serious career choice errors, you have ten hours a week totally free.

When people say they are too busy to do something, it means either:

1. I have several small children, an excuse I accept;
2. I don't really want to do it anyway, so I'm not willing to give it a higher priority than all these other things; or (and most commonly)
3. I watch too much television. The average American is up to about eight hours a day. Cut that out, there's lots of time for other stuff.

telomerase
July 6, 2003, 02:12 PM
>If you sleep 56, work 40, groom and intereact with family another 21, eat, sleep and exercise another 21 (three hours a day) that leaves 30 hours totally free, more than a day, or four and a half hours each day. Even if you're working 60 hours a week,

I don't know anyone who works less than 80 (don't let your kids grow up to be researchers), and you forgot commuting time (prob average 10 hours in DFW). But I don't watch TV, groom, or interact with family, so that should leave plenty of time... something is wrong here. Oh, I see it; you left out doing house repairs, cleaning house, and cooking. So if I move to a tent...

dude
July 6, 2003, 02:18 PM
I have 1/2 the year off so there is plenty of time for shooting


........golf, fishing (today), chasing women, mt. biking (today), hiking, did I mention fishing??

Sheslinger
July 6, 2003, 02:20 PM
We stopped buying toys - trying to pay credit cards off (see - just because we buy toys, does not mean we have the money to do it). We both work a 37.5 hour week and don't have kids. The house is 3.5 years old and does not need any major fixes yet (thank God), so only an occasional remodeling bug makes us do stuff to the house. We are not millionaires but make enough between two salaries to pay our bills, save for retirement, and have some money left for fun. We shoot once a week or so. 9 mm is cheap. We don't shoot outdoors nearly as often - we try to go once a month or so.

I agree, if you have to work more than a 40-50 hour week and you are not a police officer/doctor/fireman (i.e., jobs where people's lives are dependent on you), I would maybe look at a possible career change.

Sheslinger

telomerase
July 6, 2003, 02:29 PM
Yes, I definitely need a career change. I've got an application in for a position as a "hunter-gatherer", but I hear it's hard to find an ecological niche nowadays.

WhoKnowsWho
July 6, 2003, 02:55 PM
I'm still young, so I feel like I have years to earn later, though I do have a 401K and other savings and such. No kids, don't really want any at all.

With overtime at work, I have been working about 48 or 60 hours a week on my 12 hour shifts. I am paying off old purchases more than anything though it seems. But with those shifts, I have complete days off, with nothing to do, but since my wife doesn't like being ditched, if she doesn't feel like going to the range, that usually means I don't go...

JDSlack
July 6, 2003, 03:23 PM
I worked for 31 years to get to this point. Went through the kids, home costs, car costs etc. Now I have the time, an understanding wife and almost all the guns I want (I have all I need, for sure, but it's not the same thing). But I also planned my work life to reach this point, and I've been blessed with a great retirement plan.

Soap
July 6, 2003, 03:33 PM
I'm 21, married, in college full time, and I work about 50-70 hours per week (during the semester I only work 30). When does that leave time for shooting? Almost never nowadays. But this is a temporary stage. Eventually this will all pay off and I'll have a good paying job where I get every single weekend to myself. I have some very nice firearms, and I'm going to be taking training classes soon with Awerbuck. I also just bought my first Mercedes-Benz last December. Notice that was "I", not my rich daddy ;) Aside from school loans, I essentially have no debt. I grew up in a house that was almost 1000 whole square feet. Being independently wealthy is my long-term goal.

Have you ever talked to a licensed financial planner? As far as gun tips go, quit buying guns since you probably don't need them. When your financial situation improves, buy the things that you've wanted. And nevereverever buy them on credit. I would gladly offer financial advice except that I'm prohibited under NASD regulation.

JohnBT
July 6, 2003, 04:40 PM
I work 7-5:45, four days a week.

My commute is a 5 to 10 minute walk.

John...divorced and out of debt at last. ;)

cool45auto
July 6, 2003, 04:50 PM
Wow, you can't afford to take one day off a month? I'm sorry, man, I hope things get to where you can do other stuff soon.

Pendragon
July 6, 2003, 04:55 PM
I have had a very strict personal rule about only working 40 hours per week. Maybe if there is a rare emergency I would work more.

My next to last boss thought everyone in the IS dept. should work 10% overtime. Did not matter if there was work - he just thought it made us all look "busy" and kept us safe from the bean counters. Whatever. I never did it. I was on salary and I have no interest in working for free.

Anyway - we are moving to San Antonio in a month or so and we have decided to buy the cheapest house we can stand :). We are hoping to find one we like (3br, 2ba, 1400 sf, wood floors, big yard) for $65-75k. We should be able to put down 20% and have a house payment well under $500 - maybe $500 with tax and insurance. That will be less than 1/4th our house payment now :what:

Our cars are paid for and we will be debt free except mortgage and a small student loan.

My dream is to only have to work about 30 hours per week (and how about 3 10 hour days? w00t!).

I used to want a giant home in a fancy part of town, an expensive car, all the goodies, etc. I managed to get most of what I wanted but I did not like the cost. Do not let your stuff own you. If you have to stay in a job you hate and if you cant make the important events in your kids lives, then you are not free and your stuff probably owns you.

My son is growing up so fast. The past few months when I was working, he would cry so much when I left in the morning. I would come home and he is doing something new and my wife would say "yeah, he does that all the time...". It sucks.

Everyone on my street is selling their homes right now. We have all been here for 2+ years and most of the home prices started with a 1 when they were new, and now most of them start with a 3. So what is everyone doing? They are freaking buying BIGGER houses! Rates are lower so they can borrow more, their equity gives them more leverage so why not buy a giant 3800sf home? I mean, your kids deserve to live in a giant, empty house while their parents work dawn to dusk right?

I will probably have to keep working 40 hours for a while - we are looking into what it would take to pay off the home in about 10 years. Then - no house payment, no car payments.

Sure you make less money in some parts of the country - San Antonio has a 80% rating on the Robert Half IT salary survey (meaning if you average 50k in most of the US, you will average 40k in SA) but when you look at how much of your money goes to housing, to me, it makes sense to live in a place where the low home prices pay you more then the increased wages of, say, San Francisco. Just my thoughts....

pax
July 6, 2003, 05:17 PM
I'm married, have five kids, and work part-time (full time in Nov/Dec). I've also got an occasional (two or three days out of town a month) job as a carpenter's flunky.

I've got both less and more time than most people -- it comes in odd chunks here and there, and some weeks go by when I'm so busy I can't even remember my own name. Other times the only thing I have to do is to chase kids and watch them grow. We're homeschoolers, and that takes time too -- but again, it takes time in chunks rather than steadily, since the kids are getting bigger and more able to take charge of their own learning.

It's a two minute drive to the range, the kids are old enough to watch themselves for an hour or so, and shooting is important to my mental health.

A buddy and I worked out a barter deal for a lot of our shooting activities, and we take turns reloading ammo for both of us to use. Yeah, that takes time too, but again, being able to spend time at the range is important to me so we do what we need to do in order to make that happen.

My husband works roughly 50 hours a week, but it's all afternoon/evening work -- so we have lots of time to do things during daylight hours. We watch no TV, except an occasional show on the VCR. We do drag the kids lots of places, museums and zoos and whatnot, and spend plenty of 'weekends' (midweek on his schedule) camping out. He's recently started shooting too and so that means yet more ammo to reload -- but it also means more time together, so it evens out.

pax

sm
July 6, 2003, 05:29 PM
Define wealth.
Its not what you make,per se', but what one does with what they have. Living within means and not keeping up with Jone's.

I've had money, I have been divorced, I have raised my sibs, supported family in times of sickness and hard times. I have also lost everything('natural disaster'). Currently going through a dry spell, gave up another life to go back to school, times may be hard, family mostly forgot what I did.

Do I miss or could I use the 50K I spent in one year to keep a sis and kids safe during DV, the emergency surgery I paid for another family member, The cancer treatments and and funeral for an ex-BIL--yeah.Right after my ex divorced me she became seriously ill, almost died our history goes back 30 years . We had promised her son a trip upon his graduation, a once in a lifetime deal( before divorce ever came about). Another large in cash pkg delivered, but it was important that the kid make this trip. His real dad had mentally abused that kid. My word is my honor and important he see this. Money went for the trip, and a home nurse for mom. Stupid ? But I did the right thing, and tho broke I'm wealthy with friends. I can hold my head up and know I did the right thing.

Taking on-line classes I babysit an old friend in the hopital, do my homework, He died. I'd been up for 24 hours already but I'd promised my neice to watch her play T ball that next morning. I went and used a rat-holed twenty to buy ice cream for the team. Wealthy in the fact my friend didn't die alone. I got more than twenty bucks back watching my neice run the bases and getting ice cream for the team.

I guess its perspective and priorites. I shoot and train with an old friend on his property. I use reloads. Not bad training to shoot after being up for 36 hrs...motor skills and stuff different...might come in handy...

Boats
July 6, 2003, 05:34 PM
Between raising a young family and establishing my law practice between 60-80 hours a week, I rarely get to go shooting, but when I do, I spend all day from 7am until the light fails, shooting everything I own.

Doesn't stop me from posting here momentarily during the workweek or spending a lot of mental energy and money with a huge firearms customization project every other year. Besides there is always vicarious decisionmaking to be made here through the uncertainty of others posting here.

".38+p snubbie or .357 Mag snubbie?" It's a question I'd normally never ponder as my huge frame and gigantic mitts make a snubby feel like a pepperbox, but here I get to chew on it and say what I would decide as if I were confronted with the choice myself.

Interacting here is not as good as gun buying or shooting, but it beats the heck out of TV and the people I interact with on a daily basis who seem to only know what crime dramas teach them about firearms.

Soap
July 6, 2003, 07:19 PM
Of course there are many definitions of wealth like others have said. But since the original question seemed geared towards monetary wealth, that is what I focused on in my post. Like Pendragon said, there comes a point where your stuff owns you. I'd prefer to have lots of savings/investments plus a lot of stuff that I own. I think everyone's long term goals of wealth can simply be defined as freedom. If you can live on 20K/year and be free, great! If you need $250K per year, that's great too. But just dont' focus on the amount, that is for amateurs. I know people who make over $500K per year and they are anything but free. Assess what you own of real value and see what else you need to feel free...and be realistic! Then its a good idea to establish long term solutions to get there with a licensed financial planner.

Skunkabilly
July 6, 2003, 07:46 PM
Only eat out for special occassions. Eating out is hellah expensive and requires hellah bling.

telomerase
July 6, 2003, 07:56 PM
>I work 7-5:45, four days a week.

>My commute is a 5 to 10 minute walk.

>John...divorced and out of debt at last.

Well, duhhh. Anyone can be solvent if they're not married, John; I'm disappointed that you would stoop to such flagrant cheating. I appreciate all the thoughts on avoiding rampant consumerism, TV-watching and vampirism (although unfortunately I don't have any of those things, nor can I save money by quitting smoking, drinking, cannibalism, or gambling). re1973, I've been there... which is largely why I'm broke (not that I've noticed that financial distress gives me a wealth of friends; you either have a really good attitude or a really good imagination).

Daniel Flory: I have one thing of real value, an old dog (I have an IRA account but I'm sure Congress will find a way to steal it before I retire). As far as the financial planner goes, if he would come over and guard the credit cards 24/7, then he could be of real value.

And Pax: you are clearly a mythical character (probably one of those implausible Heinlein characters), so it's easy for you to keep expenses down.

I thank everyone for their thoughts. Except that rotten cheater John.

feedthehogs
July 6, 2003, 08:01 PM
The youth want everything now.
It takes some time.

Never would have made it working for someone else and making them rich.
It took me 18 years of hard work to build up my business.

I own my own time now.
Dictate what I want to do on daily basis.

Its good to be King.

pax
July 6, 2003, 08:22 PM
And Pax: you are clearly a mythical character (probably one of those implausible Heinlein characters), so it's easy for you to keep expenses down.
Mythical and implausible? That's odd. Usually people just say I'm impossible. :p

pax

If you prefer 'I think, therefore I am' to 'Nom sum qualis eram,' you are putting Descartes before Horace. -- James Thurber

AZTOY
July 6, 2003, 08:52 PM
I have a :cuss: job. Last week i worked 59 hours in 5 days:banghead:

Most of the guns i have came from layaway. I just put 100 bucks down on a P97. :D




As for the career change! Well mine will start Sept 10 .



On Sept 10 i will be leaving for Army Basic Training! :uhoh:

bad_dad_brad
July 6, 2003, 09:26 PM
I am a very lucky person job wise. But I understand what it is like to be poor. I was poor once. I lucked into the position I am in now and can buy just about any toy I want save big ticket items like planes or boats.

I can't really say how or why, I just lucked into it, and am humble and thankful.

If you are young, find a niche, make yourself indispensable to a large Fortune 500 company, and stay put. I am 50 and have worked at said company for 31 years. I am on call 24X7 as a mainframe systems administrator, but I have delegated responsibility to underlings and written documentation, and so I am rarely called.

Word to the wise young turks. If you want to name your price in 5 years, learn IBM mainframe OS/390 MVS assembler language. It's not that hard once you get the hang of it. Web techs are a dime a dozen nowadays, so learn assembler, cause those old boys with that key to knowledge are quickly retiring to a beach in Florida.

sm
July 6, 2003, 10:50 PM
telormerase:
I'm no big deal. There will always be those worse off or better off than I.

JitsuGuy
July 7, 2003, 02:22 AM
I'm 27 and own 2 of my own businesses. I pretty much work when I want. Just as a little motivation for ya... If you want different results, do something different. If you're broke, that's evidence that what you're doing isn't working for you.

Jits

Pendragon
July 7, 2003, 04:41 AM
When I was just out of high school, I did an embarassing stint in a multi-level-marketing business. Not disparaging those who make it work, but not my cup of tea.

Anyway - the one thing I remember most and that served me the best out of all the stuff they told me was this:


Everyone is broke.

People who make more money are just "broke at a higher level".


It took me almost 15 years to understand what that meant. On my way to here, I met a sales lady who made high 6 figures, possibly more. She spent 50,000 on window coverings for her new home - and she essentially lived check to check. It blew my mind.

To me, being wealthy would be having 6-12 months expenses in the bank and being able to cover a month of expenses with half my monthly income and still have money left.

I am opinionated and outspoken. I worked for a boss who did not like that aspect of my character. I am pretty good at channeling it for the good of the company, but he would stiffle me at every turn. I wanted to tell him to go take a leap - but I was too busy trying to keep my job because I was owned by stuff. It drove me crazy. I hated it. But I had stuff that I had to keep - so I sucked it up. Dont get me wrong, I'm not a crank - I was an analyst and I saw genuine security and risk issues that posed serious threats and I was severely threatend when I brought them up in a professional manner. That sucks. That rubs me wrong. But there I was - eating it up and asking for more.

sm
July 7, 2003, 04:51 AM
Everyone is broke. _

That's the exact same context I meant earlier. I also remember the words of an old country boy, painter by trade when I dated his daughter.

"Only reason some got more than we do--they owe more than we do."

He paid cash, scrimped, saved, and not believing in banks...I helped him find a buried Hills Bros coffee can once...

wendy
July 7, 2003, 05:37 AM
divorced and I can sleep when I am dead

and far from wealthy

JohnBT
July 7, 2003, 09:11 AM
Broke? I know broke. When I bought my house in 1980 my mortgage payment was HALF of my monthly takehome. Okay, it was 75 cents less than half and that didn't include the homeowner's policy. That's what a 12.75% mortgage will do to you. At least I got in before the rates went to 19% or whatever. Now I'm enjoying the fruits of having no payments - house or car or credit card.

If the market had stayed up I'd be considering a 30-year retirement next April at age 53. Good thing I like the work I do.

telomerase - Being divorced is not cheating. Do you have any idea what a date costs these days? First they want dinner, then they want a trip somewhere, and then they want cosmetic surgery. ;)

John

Moparmike
July 7, 2003, 09:25 AM
I feel for you man. I have been in college for the past 10 months (2semester, 1 summer session) and worked 2 jobs from Sept 01 to Oct 02, all during school. Broke as a joke. Was able to move out of my house, but at $150 rent (utilities paid) at my frat, I couldnt pass up the cheap freedom. I then ran into my Benz, which I decided I wanted more than my old car (which later fell apart, whew!:cool: ) and living outside of my parents house. I live with my parents, $410 of my $530 a month income now goes for my car ownership, with phone payment and cable internet bill (combined total of $95). I then purchase a few odds and ends that I want from the grocery store with the remaining $15.

At this point, I cant afford a box of 8mm Mauser ammo ($1.50). Fight the good fight, keep the faith. I am happy about my situation (save for the extra spending cash) with my magnificently maintained car. It is worth it to me.

In short, I know what you are going thru, and know that it sucks a$$. It will get better, and my life is dictated soley by Murphy. I know that it will, no matter what Murphy says.

makdaddy03
July 7, 2003, 09:31 AM
SINGLE!!!!!!!!!!!:evil:

Kharn
July 7, 2003, 09:53 AM
I'm in college, working summer/winter break jobs to pay for college (with the assistance of the cash my parents saved for me) and working ~16hrs/wk during the semester to pay for gun-related stuff. One year to go until I get kicked out into the real world and need to worry about what I'll eat the next day (rather than worrying about the $8k tuition payment due in X weeks). At least the Chem Eng job market is slightly stronger than most. :eek:

Kharn

fish2xs
July 7, 2003, 10:29 AM
Read "The Millionaire Next Door". It changed my life and my perspective on alot of things. The book is not the easiest to read, but well worth it. It was written by two guys that did a profile on millionaires for some investment firm so they could better target/understand people with disposable income. Some interesting millionaire findings include:

1. most popular car? used Ford F150
2. favorite food? cheeseburgers
3. path to wealth? self-made: hard work, common sense, frugal lifestyle.


I could easily buy a new $50K Mercedes, but I drive a 97 Saturn that
was a hand-me-down after my dad passed away. My cost? $0

True wealth is not what you might think it is.
-Phil

Kentucky Rifle
July 7, 2003, 10:36 AM
A laundry truck ran over me from behind as I was walking and broke my back. Their insurance company gave me some money and I put every dime in stocks. Ronald Reagan was elected, and you KNOW what happened to the stock market.
So, My back hurts every single second...but I retired at 48. I'd rather not have the pain. But, I do buy a lot of sh...er.."stuff" or "toys".
(There's always a "price" for any style of life you're after.)

KR

RustyHammer
July 7, 2003, 10:44 AM
My wife works so I don't have too ... just don't tell her I said that. (Now if I could just get everyone in my office to go believe that idea.)

I prefer to think of it as "investing in precious metals".

:rolleyes:

Soap
July 7, 2003, 11:04 AM
fish2xs is completely correct. Many people think because they surround themselves in nice things that they must be wealthly. "Things" don't factor into net worth most of the time so you're not really increasing your wealth when you buy it. For example, I have a Mercedes C-Class. My payment for it is less than 9% of my monthly take home. I didn't want to make it a higher percentage simply because a car doesn't really increase your wealth. So then instead of putting money into things that depreciate as fast as cars, large TV sets, etc. invest in things that will truly increase in wealth. For instance see John Ross's website:

http://www.john-ross.net/excuses.htm
http://www.john-ross.net/extravagance.htm
http://www.john-ross.net/financial_reading.htm

makdaddy03
July 7, 2003, 11:14 AM
RustyHammer, LOL!!!!!:) My brother is just like you.;)

DigitalWarrior
July 7, 2003, 11:31 AM
I second the "Millionaire Next Door" suggestion. I like facts. This book had oodles.

Big Hat, No Cattle. :rolleyes:

Monkeyleg
July 7, 2003, 07:28 PM
Pendragon: "To me, being wealthy would be having 6-12 months expenses in the bank and being able to cover a month of expenses with half my monthly income and still have money left."

I've got the 6-12 months of expenses issue covered, but it's the discretionary income that's a problem with regard to guns. $600 to $1000 on a new toy just isn't on the horizon when the house needs all kinds of repairs.

If I was making the kind of money I was prior to 9/11, it would be a whole different story.

Other posts here regarding "rich folks" and indebtedness are quite true. A client of mine makes extremely good money, has a house that I know is worth three to five times what a median income house in these parts costs, yet he's not sure he'll be able to retire comfortably. If I'd been making what he was, I'd be retired right now.

Jack T.
July 7, 2003, 07:38 PM
If you are young, find a niche, make yourself indispensable to a large Fortune 500 company, and stay put.

Man, I used to believe that too. . .then WorldCom "misplaced" 9 Billions Dollers. . .and my niche closed up.

CZ-75
July 7, 2003, 07:49 PM
If you're in life sciences, industry is the way to go and don't be afraid to move on. Temp jobs can get your foot in the door, but you need to assess the company and determine if they use temps as an expendable 2nd-class work force or as a no-commitment means to evaluate potential hires.

Being self-employed would seem to be one of the best ways to become wealthy. You're (as long as you aren't a franchisee) the captain of your own ship to the extent that the govt. allows - always better than having to owe it all to someone else. Still, being an employee can ease some headaches and provide a certain amount of security.

I knew a Taiwanese lady who never made more than $45K as a lab technician who was able to buy several strip malls, rental houses, apartment bldgs. and eventually, an $8 million office building, along with a $500K+ house (appreciated value after 30 years). Driving a 15 year old car was nothing to her and she wouldn't buy anything too fancy even when in the $$$.

King
July 7, 2003, 08:08 PM
A lot of good life stories here........for me wealth comes from living as simply as possible, checking my prioritities frequently (and leave a little room for shooting and other creature comforts). Like Pendragon, I decided to limit the amount of hours I'm willing to give my employer for free. They don't want to maintain me and my needs so I maintain myself. When I work my 40 to 50 hours a week, I work hard and I'm not afraid to leave after a fair amount of time.

Want guns? Buy them used, don't be impulsive on new ones, try layaways and closeouts. Same deal for ammo....watch for sales and buy cheap at gun shows.

I don't mind riding to the range in my 84 Chev Pickup or 83 Oldsmobile. I don't have to shoot a 1000 rounds each time I visit either. I make some reasonable range goals for each session and try to accomplish them. That might be 100 to 150 rounds to quality shooting. Want to shoot a bunch? Shoot your 22's.....

Ain't good enough? So what, that's better than most and there's always someone with something better. I'll say this...what I have didn't come easy and for me, that means that I care about and appreciate what I have.

Work on it and you can achieve it........

Shalako
July 7, 2003, 09:06 PM
To get ahead financially, you have to ask yourself, "What financial tools are available to me?" Mine are very limited right now, but I brainstorm often to think up more. So far my tools are:
1. Keep showing up to work and make the boss happy
2. Seek professional certification that will raise the salary ceiling
3. Pay off all debts starting with the smallest balances first
4. Pinch pennies, scrimp, save, etc.

I wish I had more tools to use to get ahead such as investments, after hours entrepenuring, buying-and-selling, but I don't ever think of any thing worth my while. Buying a home instead of renting is a great idea given the right circumstances but that is on the back burner for now. Really the only way I find to get more money is not to spend all of last months paycheck.

Shalako's Career Schedule: 4.7 years down, only 25.3 to go!!

telomerase
July 7, 2003, 09:30 PM
I don't know how to thank everyone for their helpful suggestions. So I'll just be annoying instead (do what you're good at, people keep telling me):


>Bad_Dad_Brad:
>If you want to name your price in 5 years, learn IBM mainframe OS/390 >MVS assembler language.

Now that's a concrete non-weaseling suggestion, for which Brad deserves full credit. Most of my friends are programmers or network engineers. And most of my friends are unemployed. But then they didn't have the ability to predict path of the computer industry five years in advance, like Brad. Alas, I am over 16 years old and thus already off the fast track for computer success anyway. (Have to admit that Brad could be completely right, of course.)

CZ-75:
>I knew a Taiwanese lady who never made more than $45K as a lab >technician who was able to buy several strip malls, rental houses, >apartment bldgs. and eventually, an $8 million office building, along with >a $500K+ house (appreciated value after 30 years).

I know Taiwanese like that too (and I notice yours didn't tell you how she did it either). Probably should have married one, huh? But the goal of this thread is to solve the problem without time travel.

RustyHammer:
>My wife works so I don't have to

Your solution is elegant. Unfortunately, I doubt that your wife wants to support me.

Kentucky Rifle:
>A laundry truck ran over me from behind as I was walking and broke my back.

Thanks for contributing a realistic and uncomplicated scheme. But if I adopt your plan I'm afraid that I would develop a flinch, and we all know how hard those are to get rid of.

To all those who suggested "The Millionaire Next Door":

If you read the book, you'll see that it points out that entrepreneurs push their children into becoming doctors and lawyers. This is because while some entrepreneurs become "The Millionaire Next Door", many others become starving Research Assistants because government agencies squashed their business and all their capital like an M-1 Abrams running over an ant.
The book also claims that marriage helps build wealth, which is a perfect example of confusing cause and effect. Women divorce men whose businesses fail. Well, duh. The truth is that once you sign an agreement that lets someone else spend your money, you've lost. Game over.
I'll probably do something entrepreneurial out of desperation anyway, but I'm not going to claim that it makes any sense to do so under today's tax and regulation environment.

Daniel Flory:

Your restraint in purchasing a smaller Mercedes than you might have is impressive. I will meditate upon it as I sit in my 1995 Geo.

Fish2xs:
>I could easily buy a new $50K Mercedes, but I drive a 97 Saturn that
>was a hand-me-down after my dad passed away. My cost? $0

Actually, Fish, Daniel Flory has the right idea. "Saving" money by buying a less safe car is false economy; I won't be able to spend all the money I "saved" if anyone ever hits my flimsy Geo. And neither will you. -hTERT

TaxPhd
July 7, 2003, 09:37 PM
22 years of education affords lots of opportunities. Usually a trade off between available time, and money. Not too difficult to strike a good balance.

Dropping out of high school usually doesn't provide a lot of opportunities. You have to take what you can get.

telomerase
July 7, 2003, 09:43 PM
>Dropping out of high school usually doesn't provide a lot of opportunities.

Actually, my one wealthy programmer friend did drop out of high school. But he had the brains to build up his own contract business, not work for hourly wages. And of course, he won't marry til he has his first billion.

Smoke
July 7, 2003, 10:27 PM
Lots of good stuff here, lots of just "stuff"

I'm the guy that sits across the desk from you when you want to buy that new house/mercedes/krieghoff/etc. I get to see a lot of peoples financial positions. Here is what I have learned:

Live beneath your means.
If you have to finance a Krieghoff shotgun(or other "Killer Toy")...you probably shouldn't.
If your debt/income ratio is over 42% you may already be in trouble. (and you won't get the loan)
If the sum of the value of your vehicles is more than 50% of the value of your house, your priorities are screwed.
If your buying toys on layaway/skipping meals/or not paying bills to fund your next purchase you might need professional help.
Hard work does pay off. (sometimes it takes a loooooong time)
Save 10% (minimum) of your paycheck.
It's OK to have cash in the bank.

standingbear
July 7, 2003, 10:44 PM
back in the days when my workplace was handing out 700-1200 dollar bonuses every 4 months and the only bills i had was rent,food and utilites-i could afford to get toys,hunt after work and spend the entire weekend just plinking and taking naps under a tree in the forest.got married,bought a house and started a family.bonuses shrunk to few hundred bucks,found out i really shouldnt lift things that i shouldnt try lifting just because i wanted to showboat(ahhh,the joys of medical bills).priorities change.my family comes first,if i have ammo and time,i take my son with me hunting or just hiking round looking at wildlife if theres no ammo.no wealthy people here.i work 40 hour week(no overtime is allowed)balence time off fixing stuff that gets broken round the house,keeping things nice,visiting family.wifey just been laid off and money is tight round these parts.my son keeps her plenty busy while im at work.

Soap
July 7, 2003, 11:23 PM
telomerase- If you actually told us what field you specialize in, people could give you some sort of guidance. Plus, in the original post, you asked the secret to our wealth, not to guide you to build yours. So there is no need to cut on everyone's posts individually. Anyway, there are literally millions and billions of dollars that are just out there. They are waiting to be spent by someone. You just have to figure out how you can offer them something so they'll spend it on you. If you can't figure out a way, I can't really feel sorry for ya. I come from a family that is faaaar from wealthly. But I've made decisions on how to put myself on the road to being independently wealthy. The money is just flying around, catch it.

Monkeyleg
July 8, 2003, 12:07 AM
Smoke, thanks for your perspective.

But let me ask you a question. A couple of months ago we refinanced our mortgage. At the time, a 15 year was 4.875%, so the mortgage broker put the application through for that.

Then I got the call: Mr. Monkeyleg, you're self-employed (have been for sixteen years). We can get you a 30 year at 5.75%.

What?!!

Ok, she says. The auditors say that, with a "no assets, no income" scheme, we can get you 5.625% for a 15 year refinance.

Now, let me get this straight: the auditors think that, because I've been self-employed for sixteen years and have always made my payments on time, I'm too much of a risk for the lowest mortgage payment, and that I'm a better risk for them by being socked with a higher payment.

This sounds like a Abbot and Costello routine.

Smoke
July 8, 2003, 07:44 AM
Monkeyleg,

It is an Abbott and Costello routine, its called maarketing. Most likely if the L.O. could get you to bite on the larger percentage rate he gets a cut of it. Not uncommon in the mortgage world.

My institution doesn't fix rates long term. And we don't operate on commission, but lots do.

Without knowing who you're dealing with and their policy/regulatory guidelines; you either got a guy trying to make a buck, or got an company that has policies for self-employed individuals that requires a higher rate. Lots of banks ("banks" being generic here) consider self employed people to be a higher risk (you are you know) that demands a higher rate. Even if your track record is perfect over the last 16 years.

If they are regulated by the OCC they are feeling the pressure to lend based on cash flow more than credit worthiness. Cash Flow is only a projection for the self employed. You don't have the same paycheck every month to rely on.

email me or PM if you want to delve in further.

Smoke

telomerase
July 8, 2003, 10:49 AM
>(Flory) telomerase- If you actually told us what field you specialize in, people could give you some sort of guidance.

I'm a research assistant in a telomere lab and writer (yes, I get paid for being annoying, that's why I practice so much). CZ-75 probably has covered the subject with the words "private industry"... the difficulty being that private industry can already hire Ph.D.s for 30K a year, and thus has little perceived need for jack of all trades with a BS.

>Plus, in the original post, you asked the secret to our wealth, not to guide you to build yours.

And the stories were very inspiring; I do thank everyone for their contributions.

>So there is no need to cut on everyone's posts individually.

If I were a wealthy person with a Mercedes, Mr. Flory, I don't think my feelings would be hurt by the posts of starving wretches. (Of course you're still right about the need...)

>I come from a family that is faaaar from wealthly.

I doubt that, I imagine that your family is quite wealthy where it counts (values, stability, etc.) Wealth is mostly software, not hardware.

>The money is just flying around, catch it.

Ummm... OK. I theoretically agree with that statement, but empirically I've had a hard time demonstrating it. -hTERT

fish2xs
July 8, 2003, 11:10 AM
telomerase wrote:

>Fish2xs:
>>I could easily buy a new $50K Mercedes, but I drive a 97 Saturn that
>>was a hand-me-down after my dad passed away. My cost? $0
>
>Actually, Fish, Daniel Flory has the right idea. "Saving" money by buying a
>less safe car is false economy; I won't be able to spend all the money I
>"saved" if anyone ever hits my flimsy Geo. And neither will you. -hTERT
>

Well, respectfully, I'm going to disagree with your 'false economy' statement.
In my opinion, money is money - no matter how you slice it.

I'm going to be 39 this fall and have spent the past 20 years working and
driving in the greater Boston area. For those of you who have never been here,
Boston is the home of the worst drivers this side of Bangkok. Do I get a little
nervous on the road? Yes. But I drive defensively and I'm still alive. I will
drive the Saturn into the ground, just like I did with the Oldsmobile and with
the Jetta - each of which averaged 170K miles and 9 years before I sent them out
to pasture.

This year I bought my wife a 'new' Chevy Blazer. It was a 2001 w/ 36K miles on
it. The couple I bought it from needed to sell because they were moving to a
bigger house and were buying a new SUV they "needed" (his 'old' house was beautiful).
I talked him down to $16K because the transferable factory warranty for the power
train expired at 36K miles. :)

Two years prior, they paid over $32K for the Blazer. It was spotless and loaded.
I paid cash - no loan. The seller is nuts. I have a good idea what he makes and
it's less than me. I'll never buy a new car.

TMND described how the vast majority of millionaires are either independent
business owners, or people who self impose a relative poverty by saving and
investing. They also live in the same home for 25+ years.

Wealth is a lifestyle of relative frugality. Your financial situation is a
football team. The income is your offense, your expenses are your defense. Without
both being as strong as possible, your team will not win.

When I was about 25, I made the hard choice and started saving - hard. 16% of
my salary in my 401K and another 10% in company stock, which I used to diversify
into other securities (ie. nest egg). It emasculated my take-home pay. My friends
went skiing in CO, UT, etc while I stayed home. They bought new cars, I changed
my own oil. When the tech boom hit (99), I bought a house for $350K that's been
recently appraised for $.5M - and my mortgage is liveable because I put down
a big chunk. My friends could not have done this. Nor do they have a disposable
income for frivolous stuff like boats or guns. I do.

My dad is my hero and role model. He died in 1999 at 74 years. He never made more
than $25K a year. He died with an estate worth just over $1M. I still drive his
Saturn.

Best of luck to you telomerase. Finding your own path is not easy.

Kentucky Rifle
July 8, 2003, 11:12 AM
Yeah, I've got a flinch. After the surgeon finished with me, both my hands trembled~~just slightly. I can see it through a scope. Thus, I'm no good at sniping or competing any longer.

KR

Soap
July 8, 2003, 11:12 AM
telomerase- I smell some class warfare. And for the record, my wealth was anything but handed to me. The values I've learned have helped me along the way, but 90% is plain old hard work and discipline. Where exactly does your money problem lie? Debt? Low income? Credit card debt? Lost money on your investments?

zahc
July 8, 2003, 11:15 AM
I'm 18. I'm going to college this fall undecided. Please guide me, seriously.

This thread reminds me of a few people my age who drive fancy cars and wear $200 sunglasses and $60 shirts. They got theirs from the very prosperous drug trade. It is interesting to reflect on this on the the way to work at 6 in the morning in my truck with 171,000 miles at the start of a 15 hour day. Or while handling thousands of dollars of cash in a day and realizing after taxes I'll be taking home about 50.

fish2xs
July 8, 2003, 11:17 AM
Sorry for the double post, but I just noticed this:

>Actually, Fish, Daniel Flory has the right idea. "Saving" money by buying a
>less safe car is false economy; I won't be able to spend all the money I
>"saved" if anyone ever hits my flimsy Geo. And neither will you. -hTERT

The goal here is not to spend all the money you saved. The goal is to
have enough money to live on without worrying (well that's my goal anyway).
If I die with $1M+ in the bank, that's OK by me - because that means I'll
have lived my life not worrying about my next paycheck.

...and yes, my next used vehicle purchase will probably be bigger than
a Saturn - but for now, I will take the opportunity I am presented with.

-Phil

Soap
July 8, 2003, 11:17 AM
fish- Great advice. Your success story is gonna bring a tear to me eye! :D Congrats on doing so well and having the heart to get there. Your statement here reflects in a nutshell how to be wealthy over the long term:

my next used vehicle purchase will probably be bigger than
a Saturn - but for now, I will take the opportunity I am presented with.

pax
July 8, 2003, 11:31 AM
Moderator tiptoes through, eyeballing the thread. Is this still gun-related? ... hmmmm......

pax

Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery. -- "Mr. Micawber" in David Copperfield, by Charles Dickens

JohnBT
July 8, 2003, 11:35 AM
"This thread reminds me of a few people my age who drive fancy cars and wear $200 sunglasses and $60 shirts. They got theirs from the very prosperous drug trade."

Three comments:

A) They won't get to wear the fancy duds in jail.

B) But they can be buried in them.

C) I've seen enough of them here at work...paraplegia, quadriplegia, traumatic brain injury...all from gunshot wounds.

John

fish2xs
July 8, 2003, 11:41 AM
yikes, I am going to get nothing done this morning :)

yo Zahc: You are in better shape than you think. First, (hopefully) you are
not selling drugs and living their lifestyle. Shun this and the floozey broads
it attracts at all costs!

Second, you have the most valuable asset imagineable - time.

Third, you are in better shape than you think, because you care and are thinking
about this now. You are better off than your short-visioned compatriots who
are trying to find easy street, and living solely for the moment.

I cannot guide you on what major to take or what business to get into. I will
suggest that whatever you take, include some business classes so that you can
speak the language. You must pursue the trade which interests you and become
the best you can be at it.

The best advice I can give you is two fold. First, dont stop caring. Second,
your education does not end when you graduate... read read and read some more.
Find people who are successful and talk to them. Figure out what they did, see
if it makes sense and do it.

Don't get sucked in by expensive cars, trophy wives and big vacations. It is
not true wealth. The only place where success comes before work is in the
dictionary.

fish2xs
July 8, 2003, 11:55 AM
>> Moderator tiptoes through, eyeballing the thread. Is this still gun-related? ... hmmmm......


and buy quality used guns whenever possible.....

Kentucky Rifle
July 8, 2003, 12:01 PM
I'll make it more gun related! I'll go over to the closest gun shop and purchase a Ti Beretta Tomcat today! :) I've been wanting one of those gray babies for a long time. They've also got quite a selection of AK-47's. HUMmmm.
That black one with the all black furniture which is built "completely" in the USA.
What was that brand?:confused:

Daniel's right. Buy things that <create> wealth. Those stocks work...(So I don't have to.:) ) Still have the flinch or tremble or whatever it is. :( (By the way, I drive a pickup truck.:p Easier to get in and out of. Yes, it's new.)

KR :cool:

Lennyjoe
July 8, 2003, 12:06 PM
Wealthy I am not.

Joining the military is definitely not the way to live a life of wealth and prosperity.

But I cannot complain. Its not about the money why I am still serving today. Those of you in the military and who have been there know why I still serve today.

My wants far exceed my financial capability when it comes to purchasing firearms. But I manage to save up some now and then to purchase a firearm.

Most of my range time is on the weekends.

Speaking of range time, gotta run and get some more ammo for this weekend. ;)

Topgun
July 8, 2003, 12:37 PM
When you guys gonna finally figger out that you ain't NEVER gonna get "rich" with this cesspool government?

MOST favored nation..........CHINA!
Anyone who can read that and not puke doesn't DESERVE to ask about where the riches are.

Ever since Roonie Raygun aced the PATCO union, the workin stiff has just been a STIFF.
And his "trickle down" economics.......ha ha ha ha...Ain't "tricklin" very fast is it?
And BUSHY1 and Clintoon.........New World Order afficionados both. And the present lying loon....BRING EM ON........whoops....no WMD's.....Operation Big Whoops. Can anyone spell "Vietnam?"

"Oh, but Ronnie wiped out the Russkies".....suuuuuure he did. Russia is now an economic POWERHOUSE who will join with whoever wants to wipe us out just as soon as we can't afford to BUY anything and be "useful" to them.

So keep buying at the discount store, because you can't AFFORD anything else (and they sell lots of CHINESE thingies) Otherwise, your only choice is the local merchant who might support YOU someday. ("but it's so cheeeeeeeeap there" he whines)
See how "cheap" some more fired Americans are. (YOU is gonna support em)

Also keep the wife employed because you haven't figured out the "plan" yet and still think that an economic "turnaround" is right around the corner (cuz da gummint tells you so) and you .......NEED.....that flat plasma TV to watch the WONDERFUL stuff on TV.

An, hey Monkeyleg! I used to be self-employed too. Retired now. Self-employed is the absolute WORST bank risk. You ain't got no new job to look for if YOUR income drops or stops. I was a pawnbroker and made LOTS of loans to the self-employed.

A very rotten kettle of fish here, folks. And getting worse with our FULL cooperation.

Sooo.....get out of debt, LOOK at the value of the dollar today....buy gold....and INCOME producing stocks or bonds (yes...BONDS) ONLY (which will SOAR when the stupid boomers finally find out they ain't got no source of income) and make YOURSELF your only nation.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/
http://www.wage-slave.org/scorecard.html

telomerase
July 8, 2003, 02:29 PM
>telomerase- I smell some class warfare.

No, I'm an orthodox anarcho-capitalist. Just taking a mental break from the grindstone to figure out whether I'm grinding on the right stone (or even in the right mill).

> And for the record, my wealth was anything but handed to me. The values I've learned have helped me along the way, but 90% is plain old hard work and discipline.

I think being born here rather than in Rwanda probably helped a little. Surely you can admit that trade with the billions of people in the world economy has helped too? (Maybe you shouldn't, though; studies show that successful people have the most inaccurate views of their effectiveness. I could probably handle that aspect of successful thinking, if I worked at it... :)

>Where exactly does your money problem lie? Debt? Low income? Credit card debt? Lost money on your investments?

Low income, definitely. I've made money on my investments just fine; I even avoided most of the recent crash and am back to where I was before. -HTERT

Mike Irwin
July 8, 2003, 02:42 PM
I'm not married, and I'm not happy about that, but that's another story.

I'm not a millionari, but I am well off, due largely, and paradoxically, to breaking up with the ex wife, who was the money sump of all money sumps.

How I get to take time off is to tell my boss that I'm taking a day off and using my accrued vacation leave.

Affording the firearms is something that's come over time. It's not been easy, and there have been times that I've made some pretty serious sacrifices in order to buy a gun that I really wanted, but at that time really shouldn't have purchased.

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