Aguila SSS .22 Ammo: deadly tumbler?


PDA






dubious
August 31, 2007, 07:03 PM
Hey folks, I was wondering what you all think about the effectiveness of Aguila Sniper Subsonic (SSS) .22lr ammo. This ammo is 60 grain and travels around 900 fps.

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/aquila.jpg

Ballistic Testing on Brassfetcher.com revealed that it penetrated 16" of ballistic gelatin. This stuff is unstable and tumbles like .223 and .303 enfield ammo. It is not incredibly accurate in most peoples rifles though, as it requires an unusual rifling twist.

Quoting brassfetcher.com:
Penetrated the block head-on until ~ 3.7" when the bullet flipped unto its side. At this point the maximum permanent cavity was 0.5" until ~ 6.7" penetration depth, when the bullet turned either point-forward or base-forward and exited the back of the block at 16.0" penetration depth. Bullet was not recovered.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/images/22lrSSSrifle.JPG




It seems to me like its mass and unusual tendency to tumble might make it the most effective .22 lr round on the market, if your rifle shoots it accurately.

Has anyone used this to hunt with? How have the results been?

If you enjoyed reading about "Aguila SSS .22 Ammo: deadly tumbler?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Bezoar
August 31, 2007, 07:30 PM
real world penetration when i tried it myself, went through 4 layers of 2x4 with under roof eave ventilation flashing between layers at 30 feet. Massive splinters all the way through.
It tumbles excessively and has some extremely odd charecteristics. In my 10/22 carbine it shoots roughly a foot low and a foot to the right at 40-50 feet.

rockstar.esq
August 31, 2007, 07:54 PM
It shoots patterns not groups out of my rifle and it won't feed at all with my Beretta 87 target however it was the single most accurate load out of a 4" Browning Buckmark I used to own. Believe it or not I've made repeated hits on 2 liter bottles at 200+ yards with that combination. I never had an animal present itself when I was hunting with it but they sure smack spinners harder than any other .22LR cartridge I've shot.

dubious
August 31, 2007, 08:39 PM
It's actually comparably much more accurate in my Russian TOZ... I get like 4 inch groups at 50 yards instead of sub 1 inch.

Here's an interesting tidbit on tumbly damage from Gunwriters:


Penetration of Aguila SSS bullets was more deep than usual .22 LR solid 40 grains bullets or that of .22 LR Scoremax, despite of the fact that 60 gr SSS bullet yaws soon after the hit on a dry paper pack used for penetration test media, and lost almost 50 % from it's weight. According to test report of Markus: The bullet of SSS acts as a "furtive DumDum" bullet soon after a hit, but as a real DumDum bullet of .303 British Mark II Special cartridge after the deeper penetration. In the actual soft tissue, the 45 + per cent fragmentation cannot, of course, exist, because of the low striking velocity, but the yaw-effect is able to cause all that tissue destruction, available with a kinetic energy or the striking momentum. (Kinetic energy = velocity x velocity x bullet weight per a gravitational constant. Momentum = velocity x bullet weight).

CDignition
August 31, 2007, 09:18 PM
Just don't shoot it thru a can, it has and will cause baffle strikes.

Rugerman99
August 31, 2007, 09:39 PM
I just picked up a box of this stuff and have yet to fire it I was wondering if it feeds alright in a Ruger 10/22? Is there enough recoil to work the action?

taliv
August 31, 2007, 09:42 PM
(will cause baffle strikes) if it's not twisted right.

i've shot a metric buttload of it through can with a ceiner conversion in my AR15 with a 1/7 twist. it's plenty accurate if you're twisted right.

thexrayboy
August 31, 2007, 09:58 PM
I would expect the reason this particular ammo tends to tumble is the same reason that caused the original m16 with the slow barrel twist of 1:14 have trouble with heavier 62grain rounds keyholing and becoming very inaccurate at all but short ranges. The heavier bullet requires a faster twist rate to stabilize it gyroscopically. The typical twist rate of a .22 rifle is in the 1:16 range. This will work well with the lighter faster moving rounds that are typically used but is not fast enough to stabilize the heavier slower rounds.

A rifle with a barrel rate of 1:12 or even 1:10 would probably be quite accurate with this round. As it is a subsonic round it would not be dealing with the potential instability caused by passing through the sound barrier and could be quite accurate. The heavier weight would tend to lend itself to good penetration compared to the lighter weight rounds.

baz
August 31, 2007, 10:02 PM
Well, if not terribly accurate as a rifle load, how about in a 22 pistol, like a Ruger or Browning? I'm particularly curious about its effectiveness as a short range SD load. My wife has MD, and cannot work the action or handle the trigger pull of most handguns. She can handle my Buckmark Camper, though, and I'm wondering if this would be good ammo to keep in it instead of the regular hi velocity 22.

I just may have to try it, but if anyone already knows whether it is good or bad in a 22 handgun, let me know.

22LongRifle
August 31, 2007, 10:27 PM
baz

My wife is in the same boat with RA. She has problems with my 10/22. I keep my Ruger MK1 (yep a one) loaded up with them for her.

They cycle good in this old rattling snake killer and I get minute of squirrel head ability at around five yards.

The guys at rimfirecentral have me convinced to have a 10/22 built up around this round when I find another receiver.

22lr

Jack A. Sol
August 31, 2007, 11:13 PM
1- the twist of the barrel has absolutely nothing to do with the terminal "in flesh" ballistics. twist only stabilizes in flight. when it hits flesh, the shape and construction is what determines performance not its rotation.

2- a longer barrel will also stabilize this round well. think 20+ inches. oddly it also makes it very quiet as all the powder burns in barrel.

3- round will penetrate 3/16" of rolled aluminum reliably at 25 yards at a 90 degree angle

roscoe
September 1, 2007, 01:13 AM
I personally think that this is likely to be the most effective .22 self-defense round out there - but it is surely a shorter range load. It is also quiet since it is subsonic. It shoots well in my rifle and cycled my old Beretta semi auto pistol easily.

baz
September 1, 2007, 09:21 AM
22Longrifle, thanks for the reply. I'm going to get some, and try it out in the Buckmark Camper that my wife shoots.

One thing I'd like to see discussed, from those who see this as a SD round, is why that would be so, compared to a high velocity round. Velocity is more important to muzzle energy than mass. By my rough calculations, a 60 grain subsonic round will have about half the muzzle energy as a high velocity 40 grain round. On penetrating, is this round likely to do more damage than a high velocity round?

What would be the merit, if any, of keeping a magazine loaded with these alternating with high velocity rounds? It seems to me that the higher energy of the high velocity round has got to be worth something.

22LongRifle
September 1, 2007, 09:31 AM
I really couldn't tell you baz? I think the info on the penatration is the best explaination. Me thinks the bullet is going in the brain and bouncing around inside the BGs head! That is gota hurt! This was what Bill Jordan liked about the 22mag as a backup pistol caliber.

On the sporting side, I think it would be a great coydog round in the barn yard. I just got to start a jar up to save for a $150 barrel with the 1-9" twist.

22lr

Winter Borne
September 1, 2007, 10:35 AM
It's all I carry in my P22. At close range out to 15 yards its right on target.

mk

stevelyn
September 1, 2007, 11:12 AM
It's pretty accurate it out of my Win. M-290. None of the holes I've punched through cardboard have shown any signs of key-holing or tumbling, and 2x4s on pallets won't stop it.
Out of my pistol OTOH, it strikes sideways and I'm willing to bet it's tumbling in flight.:uhoh:

ilcylic
September 1, 2007, 03:30 PM
Is there more information available about this required twist rate? I'm looking for something like a study of stability rates in projectiles at given rotational velocities.

What rifling twist rate do 1911's use? That seems a reasonable example of the traditional "heavy, slow" bullet, right?

Vern Humphrey
September 1, 2007, 04:35 PM
My thinking is, for hunting, I want accuracy above all. For self-defense, I want more power than any .22 can produce.

thexrayboy
September 1, 2007, 06:13 PM
For a good discussion of rifle twist rate as applied to bullet weight visit
www.ammooracle.com . They are talking about 5.56 nato rounds from the AR platform so it isn't specifically about .22lr but it will have some bearing.
The most notable difference between .22lr and 5.56 nato ammo is velocity followed by bullet shape.

Rifle twist rate of course has no effect on what a round does once it hits the target. That is a function more of velocity and the basic design of the round,
i.e. FMJ spitzer vs lead RN etc. However rifle twist rate does affect stability,
a round that is not gyroscopically stable in flight due to under rotation will frequently strike a target sideways or tangentially as opposed to point first. This does affect terminal ballistics.

taliv
September 1, 2007, 08:30 PM
1- the twist of the barrel has absolutely nothing to do with the terminal "in flesh" ballistics. twist only stabilizes in flight. when it hits flesh, the shape and construction is what determines performance not its rotation.

i mentioned twist because of baffle strikes, not hitting flesh. dunno where you got that. maybe i missed something

2- a longer barrel will also stabilize this round well. think 20+ inches. oddly it also makes it very quiet as all the powder burns in barrel.

yeah, if it's 20" from the chamber to the target ;)

roscoe
September 2, 2007, 02:51 AM
One thing I'd like to see discussed, from those who see this as a SD round, is why that would be so, compared to a high velocity round. Velocity is more important to muzzle energy than mass. By my rough calculations, a 60 grain subsonic round will have about half the muzzle energy as a high velocity 40 grain round. On penetrating, is this round likely to do more damage than a high velocity round?
That is because it penetrates better than any other .22 round. Sectional density is a significant factor in penetration, and the 60-grain solid has it better than any other .22 round. With a small-caliber/power round like the .22, penetration is the first order of business. You may notice that many people carrying .32s use FMJ rounds for this reason.

Titan6
September 2, 2007, 08:04 AM
Very unstable out of my Heritage SA with a 6'' barrel. Also out of the 10/22 and the Marlin with the 18'' barrel. Did not try any larger barrels. A little more quiet than other rounds. (did not measure dbs)

It did not pass my penetration test for SD use. I shoot through a layer of sheet metal (16 Guage), a layer of plastic (1/8'') and another layer of sheet metal. This simulates a car door/ body panel. It would not penetrate the second layer of sheet metal. Very few .22RF/MAG rounds do. Penetration was actually much worse than most rounds. Observing it under camera it appears as thought the bullet shattered on impact with the first layer of sheet metal and fragmented into the plastic.

The bullets caused small targets it struck to react explosively almost as though they had been hit by .222 or .223 (but not quite). Works well on rabbits.

B36
September 2, 2007, 08:59 AM
First, no keyhole problems at 50 yards from a 10 22 with 20" barrel.

Second velocity was av 910fps, third, velocity from 2" 34 was av 721fps, 4" 18 was 771 av, and no keyholing from either at 15 yards.

If gelatin is to be used, it needs to have cover--the standard being 4 layers of denim.

baz
September 2, 2007, 09:21 AM
It did not pass my penetration test for SD use.
.....
The bullets caused small targets it struck to react explosively almost as though they had been hit by .222 or .223 (but not quite). Works well on rabbits.And I wouldn't use it for SD myself, either. But as I said in an earlier post, my wife has MD, and can only shoot my Buckmark Camper. She'd never be using it to shoot through car doors. Just inside the house, and at somebody who's probably not dressed in steel. For close in SD, by someone who can only shoot a 22, it sounds good to me.

Of course, if I'm home, the bad guy is staring at a 6" Taurus Tracker loaded with .357 magnum. And not staring for long, because if somebody I don't know is in my house, its shoot first, and ask questions later.

jcord
September 2, 2007, 09:23 AM
I replaced my barrel on my 10-22 with a 1 in 9 twist barrel specifically to stabilize this round.

I use it through my suppressor and it is absolutely the most accurate round I have found in my 10-22. One inch groups are common at 50 yards. (The range I keep it zeroed for) Zeroed at 50 yards it is about 10 inches low at 100.

The largest thing I have shot with it is squirrels. Knocks em right out of the tree. I know this isn't much of a test, but you would have to see the exit wound to understand. I have been wanting to try it on a coyote hunt one night to see how it does on larger game.

Be aware, firing this short cased ammo will cause a carbon build up in your chamber, that is difficult to get out. What this does is cause jams when you try to use regular 22lr ammo. keep your chamber clean

If you enjoyed reading about "Aguila SSS .22 Ammo: deadly tumbler?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!