Putting the Case Against Gun Control: by Sean Gabb


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MicroBalrog
July 6, 2003, 08:16 PM
This is an old one - but a d__n good one!
http://www.seangabb.co.uk/pamphlet/guns3.htm

Putting the Case Against Gun Control:
Reflections on an Outrageously Effective
Television Performance
May 2nd 1996
by Sean Gabb

(Published as Tactical Notes No. 17
by the Libertarian Alliance,
London, May 1996, ISBN 1 85637 343 6)
Last 2nd May, a Thursday, I was invited to Scotland to sit on the panel in Words with Wark, a television discussion show which replaces Question Time there once every month. The researchers, it seems, had been unable to find anyone in the country to denounce gun control, and so had to make do with an English accent. Having found me, though, they did their best to keep me happy. I was offered a taxi from South East London to Heathrow, which I only turned down because public transport is faster during the day. I was given a business class seat on a flight to Glasgow - cost £120 - and a first class railway sleeper back down to Euston - cost £85. Then there was a stretched Rover to Ayr Town Hall, where the programme was to be recorded. Adding my fee - which I could probably have doubled had I been inclined - I may have cost them more than the average MP. Nice work when you can get it.


On the panel with me was the Editor of The Sunday Mail, and a journalist whose name I never caught but who looked just like someone I knew and loathed at university, and Guy Savage, representing the Shooters' Rights Association. These first two were there to argue for a ban on the private ownership of guns, the third to claim that the Firearms Acts 1920 to 1988 strike a fair balance between competing interests, and that this should not be upset just because a pair of lunatics in Dunblane and Tasmania had decided to shoot lots of people. In the studio audience were four politicians - Sir Michael Hirst, Chairman of the Scottish Conservative Party, Margaret Ewing, from the Scottish Nationalists, and two others whose names I again missed but which are not worth looking up. I have no idea how many people watch Words with Wark. But I imagine the BBC had given me a seven figure audience to regale with my opinions.

And my opinion is that gun control is wrong in any form. I believe that an adult should be able to walk into a gun shop and, without showing any permit or identification, be able to buy as many guns and as much ammunition as he can afford; and that he should be able to carry this round with him in public and use it to defend his life and property. This is not a popular view, I grant. On the other hand, I doubt if many armed criminals would take more notice of a gun ban than they do of the present controls. And it is worth asking how many people Michael Ryan could have killed had anyone else in Hungerford High Street been carrying a gun. As the Americans say, "God made men equal, and Smith & Wesson make damn sure it stays that way".


I earned my fee by saying all this in the studio. I am sure I pleased the researchers. They spend much of their lives talking to people who say the most outrageous things on the telephone, but who then lose heart in the studio and agree with everyone else. The audience was another matter. Speaking on the Kilroy programme here in London, I could probably have made people bounce up and down on their seats with rage. Just as likely, there would have been a few Dunblane parents to sob pathetically into the cameras. Speaking in Ayr, the response I got was a shocked silence. I looked out into a sea of faces that reminded me of nothing so much as the Jewish audience in Mel Brooks' The Producers, during the opening number from Springtime for Hitler. At last, someone who claimed to be a minister of religion and a father of two denounced me for pulling God into politics - as if that were not what He is there for. Someone else who said he fought in Korea claimed I was so plainly unbalanced that I should never be let near a gun.

As soon as what passed for debate had started again, I took care to score a big "own" goal. An Olympic shooter spoke, followed by a clay pigeon shooter. They were not against a gun ban - so long as their guns were left out of it. No said I, this would never do. The purpose of guns was to kill people. The only matter of importance was to make sure they were used to kill the right people, namely burglars and street criminals. From the look on the Olympic man's face, he was thinking of quite another category of people to kill.


Twenty minutes pass very quickly in a television studio. I had barely warmed up before my panel was ejected, to make way for the politicians to come on and bore everyone stiff with rail privatisation and nursery vouchers.


Afterwards in the reception, I found myself shunned like the lepers of old. The locals turned their backs on me. Sir Michael Hirst looked straight through me as I sidled up to him with my glass of orange juice - so much for the party of individual freedom! Guy Savage muttered that my comments had been "unconstructive". On the ride back to Glasgow, he pointedly ignored me, talking to the driver instead about negative equity. This was a shame. On the ride over, he had been very friendly, sharing with me his vast knowledge of the present law on guns, and even agreeing to address a Libertarian Alliance conference on the right to keep and bear arms. Realising that my presence was not desired, I pretended to sleep all the way back.


On the whole, I did pretty well. One of the great falsehoods of modern life is that arguments are won by being "moderate" - by conceding the other side's point and then haggling over the details. They are not. The gun lobby, for example, spent nearly half a million after Hungerford trying to stop the Firearms Bill that resulted from it. I imagine most of the cash went straight to a gang of sleazy PR hacks, who organised a few lunches with politicians too corrupt even to stay bought. What little found its way into the media was one long grovel, by clay pigeon and Olympic shooters begging for laws that would hurt only other gun owners. They rolled over and showed their bellies to Douglas Hurd. Not surprisingly, he gave them all a good, hard kicking.


Arguments are won by being honest - by saying what you believe as clearly as possible, as often as possible, and never mind how "unconstructive" it seems in the short term. Doing so has three effects. First, it shifts the middle ground in a debate. This is valuable in a country where being moderate is so in fashion. For this middle ground is not an independent point of view, but can be pulled sharply to and fro by what is happening at the extremes. Before about 1975, for example, the public spectrum on economic policy stretched between Soviet communism and social democracy. Accordingly, the moderates were all pink socialists. Now there are libertarians demanding a total free market, the moderates have become blue social democrats. And, though important, the collapse of the Soviet Union was not entirely to blame for this - in those countries without a libertarian fringe, after all, the consensus is still decidedly pink. In my own case, had I not been in that studio, the spectrum would have stretched between a total ban and the status quo; and anyone trying to sound moderate would have had to favour many more controls. As it was, Mr Savage came across as the centrist - a fact recognised by the people who did not shun him as they did me, and a fact worth noting by the Shooters' Rights Association if it ever wants to live up to its name.

Second, it gets converts. Granted, my audience in the studio was full of glum blockheads. But there must have been dozens of people at home who were hearing what I said for the first time and who agreed with every word of it. Most of these will stay at home. Others - one or two, perhaps - will become committed libertarian activists. They will join the Libertarian Alliance. They will hand out its publications. They will write for it. They will appear in television studios, putting the libertarian case on whatever they have been called in to discuss. Moreover, even the blockheads have a function. If they can remember what I said in the studio - not hard, bearing in mind how clear I was - they will spread it by explaining to friends and relations how scandalised they were by it. Sooner or later, the message will reach someone who is not at all scandalised; and another convert will have been made. And that is how intellectual revolutions get under way. With his claim that Hungerford and Dunblane were "failures of policing", and the like, I doubt if Mr Savage enthused anyone to go out and do something against the gun grabbers.


Third, it establishes a position. Unusual ideas are generally ignored at first. Then, if they continue being put, they are laughed at. Then they must be argued with. Occasionally, they become the common sense of the next generation. That is how it was with socialism in this country. More recently, it was like that with monetarism and council house sales. I do not know if my dream of abolishing gun control will be so lucky. But, to be sure, no one will take notice of it unless someone goes to the trouble of clearly arguing for it.

Yes, I did pretty well in Scotland. I may do even better the next time I am allowed into a television or wireless studio.


Supplement - Saturday May 18th 1996


I was allowed back yesterday morning. I cast the first version of the above onto the Internet on May 10th. The following morning, Jim Hawkins of BBC Radio Northampton replied by e-mail. He had read my pamphlet and liked it, and he wanted me to repeat it on his programme on Friday the 17th.


So there I sat for an hour yesterday morning, telling another million people why the gun control laws should be abolished. I was against Anne Pearson (at least, that is how her name sounded) of the Snowdrop Campaign - this being a group set up after Dunblane to press for a total ban on handguns. Though honest, she was not very bright, and I went through her like a hot knife through butter. When I accused her of wanting to live in a slave state, she answered "Yes, I do". When I further accused her of trusting no one else with guns because she felt unable to trust herself with one, she started to panic. When I repeated my wish that someone else in Hungerford had been armed, she referred to my appearance on Words with Wark, saying only that I had worried her then, and I worried her now.


I said much else, ranging from the Jews in Nazi Germany ("what if they had been able to shoot back?"), to Waco ("men, women and children murdered by the American Government"). In short, I indeed did even better this time than last - and if anyone doubts this, I have a tape to proves it.


Enough of boasting, however. The reason for this Supplement is to emphasise that extremism does work. Consider:


First, it was extremism that got me on Words with Wark, and an extremist report of what I did there that got me on the Jim Hawkins show. It annoys me that I can never make the national press - versions of my pamphlet, for example, came straight back to me from The Spectator and The Sunday Telegraph, as if wafted on cries of horror. Nevertheless, the electronic media can hardly get enough of me and Brian Micklethwait and the rest of us. Whether or not we can ever win it, we lack no opportunity for putting the libertarian case.

Second, it is extremism that makes us so effective in debate. The gun grabbers and other enemies of freedom have so far had an easy ride in the media. They have only had to argue with cowards and fools who, worried not to upset anyone, have failed to make most of the good points. They have never known principled, uncompromising opposition. Faced with it, they behave like rabbits faced with a new strain of myxomatosis: they have no defences. If Mrs Pearson was out of her depth with me, so at present are all of her colleagues. They have ready answers to the whinings of the clay pigeon lobby, but none to anyone who asserts a right of self defence against "burglars, armed robbers and other trash".


Third, extremism really does shift the middle ground. In the main pamphlet above, I was unable to give examples from my own experience. Since yesterday morning, I can. Someone from a shooting club called in, and said "I want to take a middle view between the speakers". He then argued against any change in the gun laws. Without me there, he could never have got away with that. He would have been denounced as a potential Thomas Hamilton, trying to save his penis extension. Half an hour of me, and Mrs Pearson nearly embraced him. Guy Savage and the Shooters' Rights Association - again, please take note.


In a few minutes, I will send this revised pamphlet to Brian, for publishing by the Libertarian Alliance. Before he even sees it, though, it will be all over the Internet - there to be read by anyone else who happens to have a studio to fill.

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Stormbringer
July 9, 2003, 02:46 PM
Thank you for the post. I couldn't agree with your position more. Its ludicrous to think we can appease these liberal anti-gun folks. Afterall since they just don't get the idea that criminals will allways be able to aquire weapons to be used against defenseless law abiding citizens and that all the anti-gun and gun control laws do is affect the law abiding citizen not the criminal it really is pointless to engage them in a true informative debate on the subject. I'm glad to see you gave them a good slap in the face for what ever it was worth.

MicroBalrog
July 9, 2003, 03:28 PM
Stormbringer, maybe I wasn't sufficiently clear, but I am not the author of this (not that' I haven't given the antis a few slaps of my own). I'm just pointing out this totally cool British guy.

2nd Amendment
July 9, 2003, 05:01 PM
I am vastly curious about "Anne Pearson" and her agreement that she wants to live in a slave state? Is this something that goes beyond that lone comment, or was that just a small slip on her part? Does(did) she have much influence and did she get away with saying similar things elsewhere?

Mr. Bombastic
July 9, 2003, 05:28 PM
Thanks for posting that.

It might take another few generations for things to get better here, if they ever do.

Unbrainwashing the masses into not automatically thinking 'guns are bad', 'self defence is useless' will take an eon.

It's a pity all Brits aren't as sensible, objective and open-minded as myself! :(

MicroBalrog
July 9, 2003, 05:32 PM
Pearson was an activist with the Snowdrop campaign.
To find out about Pearson and her post-Dunblane activites, click

here (http://www.dvc.org.uk/~johnny/dunblane/).

To find out about the Self-Defense Network, click here (http://www.rkba.co.uk/sdn/)

pax
July 9, 2003, 06:07 PM
I have thought for a long time that the big problem with the RKBA movement (and the freedom movement in general) is that our extremists aren't extreme enough. Mr. Grabb has a beautifully amusing name, given the subject matter, and articulates the point with beautiful clarity.

Moving this to L&P, where it properly belongs. Thanks for posting it.

pax

Arguments are won by being honest - by saying what you believe as clearly as possible, as often as possible, and never mind how "unconstructive" it seems in the short term. -- Sean Grabb

agricola
July 9, 2003, 06:30 PM
I was allowed back yesterday morning. I cast the first version of the above onto the Internet on May 10th. The following morning, Jim Hawkins of BBC Radio Northampton replied by e-mail. He had read my pamphlet and liked it, and he wanted me to repeat it on his programme on Friday the 17th.

So there I sat for an hour yesterday morning, telling another million people why the gun control laws should be abolished.

I think Mr. Gabb is living in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks a million people listen to BBC Radio Northampton.

Second, it is extremism that makes us so effective in debate. The gun grabbers and other enemies of freedom have so far had an easy ride in the media.

Read seven years on, it does make one suspect that Gabb was a picked man for the debates; a stereotypical "gun nut" for whom the viewer was meant to think "what a loon" and thus paint the pro-Ban people in a better light.

Enough of boasting, however. The reason for this Supplement is to emphasise that extremism does work.

At getting on TV and helping HMG prove its case, yes.

MicroBalrog
July 9, 2003, 07:16 PM
Agricola: Pray tell us how efficient the BASSC was at stopping the handgun ban?

MicroBalrog
July 9, 2003, 07:22 PM
Pax - I believe it's Sean Gabb, not Sean Grabb.:neener:

Sam Adams
July 9, 2003, 07:22 PM
The author hit the nail on the head when he said:

One of the great falsehoods of modern life is that arguments
are won by being "moderate" - by conceding the other side's point and then haggling over the
details. They are not.

When you let the other party choose the terms of the debate on ANY subject, you have lost before the first word is uttered.

In the gun debate, whether in the US, UK or elsewhere, gun owners have ALWAYS conceded that "reasonable" restrictions are OK. Well, guess what: when you do that, you are now reduced to arguing over what is "reasonable." At that point in any debate that I've ever seen or read, the anti gives one or more examples of some horrific killing by some criminal or nut, after which it is not hard for them to convince a bunch of sheople that pretty much anything is a "reasonable" restriction.

Agricola - Sorry, you are wrong. When you have someone show up at a debate who is articulate, has a coherent, well-organized point of view, and who is both dressed and groomed neatly, you score points. You don't convince everyone, of course, but what speaker EVER has? Your objective is to convince a few, get a bunch to start questioning the conventional wisdom, and to let your opponents know that their view and their goals will not go unchallenged (hopefully discouraging the lazy or cowardly among them). I would bet that most people in the UK have never heard someone articulate the ideas that this gentleman did - and if you don't know about an idea, you can hardly be convinced of it. This guy challenged groupthink in the UK. If he had only one or two converts, it was a profitable exercise. Rome wasn't built in a day, nor do great but controversial ideas sway the masses overnight. Naysayers/compromisers like you only hasten the day when there will be no guns in private hands (except, of course, for those attached to wealthy and/or powerful people)

agricola
July 9, 2003, 07:39 PM
microbalrog,

Thats the point - it wasnt, and neither was Gabb. However the BASSC didnt post on its website how clever it was at debating and how it had carried all before it like a new Marcus Tullius.

Sam,

For a start there is a difference which must be expressed between the US and the UK with regards to Libertarians. In the US, there is at least some form of Libertarian representation and a measurable amount of the population that would support it. This is not the case in the UK; the LA is on the fringe of the fringe politically. Gabb's presence on the debating platform was in all probability not as a representative of the Libertarian Alliance - you could more justify a member of the Monster Raving Loony Party in representative terms - but because he was a useful person to have to paint the anti-ban people in a bad light. When Gabb states:

Second, it gets converts. Granted, my audience in the studio was full of glum blockheads. But there must have been dozens of people at home who were hearing what I said for the first time and who agreed with every word of it.

he speaks the truth. Noone in the audience agreed with him, and he (using his own figures) states that, of a million viewers, there were dozens of people who may have agreed with him of which one or two may join the Libertarian Alliance. That is one or two, but when you add it to the fifty or a hundred people that probably constitute the membership of the LA (never mind the active element) one realises that you might as well ask the locals of a random pub to affect political change. I'd argue that, far from advancing the idea of a libertarian movement in the UK, Gabb probably made sure that 99.9% of the people watching it went away with the idea that Libertarians were strange bespectacled men who held strange ideas and who probably should be sectioned. That does not advance the cause of Libertarianism.

Gabb was a picked man in that debate, whether he realised it or not.

Standing Wolf
July 9, 2003, 07:56 PM
One of the great falsehoods of modern life is that arguments are won by being "moderate" - by conceding the other side's point and then haggling over the details.

That nail's been struck squarely on the head, I'd say.

Sam Adams
July 9, 2003, 08:11 PM
Agricola, you have to start somewhere. If you want an example, look at the Soviet Union. In 1953, just before Stalin's death, it was a thoroughly terrorized nation. NO ONE dared mutter an anti-government complaint or wisecrack, for fear that they had just spoken to an informant for the NKVD and that, at a minimum, they would be "invited" to spend some "quality time" at the local Lubyanka outlet. Now fast forward to 1989 - only 36 years later: revolution! Speaking out AGAINST the government became fashionable, not punishible. Fast forward to now: the Soviet Union is a fairly dim memory, Eastern Europe wants membership in NATO, and Russia is on its way to some sort of freedom and democracy.

It CAN happen in the UK, but not until someone starts complaining and challenging the groupthink that has taken the place of wisdom over there. Stop being a defeatist.

The longest journey begins with a single step.
-Ancient Chinese Proverb

agricola
July 10, 2003, 03:28 AM
Sam,

youre confusing wanting freedom under a dictatorship and trying to import US style libertarianism into a country that is already free. It will never happen (thankfully).

MicroBalrog
July 10, 2003, 03:46 AM
agricola,

you're confusing freedom with tyranny by the majority. That's a big difference.

agricola
July 10, 2003, 03:48 AM
and youre confusing the UK for the US.

MicroBalrog
July 10, 2003, 03:53 AM
I am? How?

Mr. Bombastic
July 10, 2003, 04:44 PM
How are we free agricola? We aren't even free to defend ourselves from predators, which is a basic right of every other living species on the planet.

We can't even watch TV without a licence.

Free my arse.

dustind
July 10, 2003, 08:55 PM
Isn't there limitations on what people can say in Britian, such as you can not say anything that would offend a minority, etc?

America is not free is some ways, but Britian is less free.

MicroBalrog
July 11, 2003, 03:31 PM
Agricola, I repeat my question: Why do you think I'm confusing the UK and the US?

agricola
July 11, 2003, 03:43 PM
Because libertarianism on the US scale has never in modern times been anything other than a fringe movement, in fact to call it fringe is to discredit the fringe because there are chess clubs that have more members than the LA.

Accordingly, when Gabb speaks like that, he may come across as speaking sense to US ears, but over here he sounds like an egotistical fool.

Mr. Bombastic,

Wrong, on both counts. Self defence has not and never has been removed from the body of English Law - its just you cant shoot burglars in the back when they flee. Second, I am unaware of any definition of "freedom" that includes being provided with free television or other entertainment, and in any case you can have your TV with no licence as long as it doesnt pick up any broadcast stations; use it for the video, DVD or PlayStation like the rest of us.

edited to add:

Dustind,

We have a different system with regards to freedom of speech, yes. For a start, the civil law means that you cannot libel or slander someone - but basically this comes down to being able to back up your allegations in a Court, if you say untruths that affect someones standing / character etc then you can get sued (which IMHO is correct).

Criminally, you can also get arrested for various Public Order offences. The most relevant of these is Inciting Racial Hatred which basically states that if someone uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting and which is intended to stir up racial hatred, or if racial hatred is stirred up by that then they can get arrested.

MicroBalrog
July 11, 2003, 03:49 PM
Because libertarianism on the US scale has never in modern times been anything other than a fringe movement, in fact to call it fringe is to discredit the fringe because there are chess clubs that have more members than the LA.

You are correct, but remember that a movement or activist group can have infuence in certain subjects which is far beyond it's ranks. By the way, did you read my new article, entitled "The Avalanche"?

agricola
July 11, 2003, 03:53 PM
No, I havent.

MicroBalrog
July 11, 2003, 03:57 PM
Here it is, it's about the future of gun control:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30762

MicroBalrog
July 11, 2003, 04:21 PM
At any rate, I don't see how any of what you said disproves Gabb's main point in any way.

agricola
July 11, 2003, 07:29 PM
What was his main point? That he "won" the argument (which its fairly clear even from his main point that he didnt)? Or that he had a damned fine time on television? Or that he managed to portray gun owners as being to a man wackos and thus convinced every man and woman in the studio, and probably those watching (and later the eleven people and a cat listening to BBC Radio Northampton) that the ban on handguns was a good deal?

I have just read your article. As I recall, Joyce Lee Malcolm's article and the evidence it contained could not have been extended to read as "ban on some guns = rise in violent crime" but went on about the "English RKBA". The rest of it I wouldnt comment on, except to state that CCW is a worrying trend in that one should always be wary of a state telling you you can do something you've (in the US context via the 2A) every right to do in the first place. Would you accept the state giving you a licence to read? Or speak out?

MicroBalrog
July 11, 2003, 07:32 PM
No, but CCW laws are a whole lot better than no-issue or may-issue laws.

MicroBalrog
July 11, 2003, 07:33 PM
The main point was:

One of the great falsehoods of modern life is that arguments
are won by being "moderate" - by conceding the other side's point and then haggling over the
details. They are not.

agricola
July 11, 2003, 07:50 PM
microbalrog,

i'd disagree - arguments are won because you are right and he/she is wrong. ;) :D

MicroBalrog
July 11, 2003, 08:15 PM
But Anne Pearson was not only technically wrong. She was morally wrong.

Freedspeak
July 12, 2003, 12:37 AM
Agricola

Actually the Libs have a higher rate of elected officials in the US and a larger membership than all the other "third" parties combined. At the state and local levels they are making inroads, and that is where it starts!

Freedspeak
July 12, 2003, 12:46 AM
i'd disagree - arguments are won because you are right and he/she is wrong.

On a societal or cultural level the concept of right or wrong can vary, the argument must be put into a context of ethos rather than ethics, one being universal the other being a cultural affectation. So from that how do you decide who is right or wrong, if each is arguing based on a different cultural belief!

Mr. Bombastic
July 12, 2003, 08:10 AM
Wrong, on both counts.

Actually no.

Self defence has not and never has been removed from the body of English Law...

Maybe the term ‘self defence’ hasn't been removed from English Law. But the way the law stands now, it is the equivalent of saying that it is perfectly legal to climb Mount Everest, but you can't do it using anything other than your bare feet and hands.

A man was recently arrested and prosecuted because he ran after four racist vandals that damaged his shop. He pursued them, armed with a rolling pin for self defence, which he had because he was outnumbered and he feared they were armed. He never used the rolling pin, but he caught one of the vandals. The police were not on the scene to catch the vandals themselves even though they witnessed what happened on CCTV.

His rolling pin was confiscated and he was fined £100.

I guess you believe he should have just stood by and let these scum destroy his life-blood? Or maybe he should have phoned the police (who already knew what had happened) and hope that they actually bothered to do something about it?

The vandals were not afraid of the police or jail. They were afraid of a person willing to break the law and defend themselves and their property though.

Second, I am unaware of any definition of "freedom" that includes being provided with free television or other entertainment...

Did you read my post properly? Did I write that 'freedom' included the ability to have a 'free' anything?

You don't even recognise the right to self defence in your 'definition' of freedom, for what it's worth.

...in any case you can have your TV with no licence as long as it doesn’t pick up any broadcast stations; use it for the video, DVD or Playstation...

'We can't even watch TV without a licence.' is what I wrote. I didn't write 'We can't even watch videos or play computer games without a licence'.

Having to pay the government $180 every year to finance the BBC, even if you only watch independent channels and don't ever watch the State owned television is hardly having ‘freedom’ to use your own property in your own home is it? You even have to let ‘Inspectors’ into your home to prove you can’t receive any broadcast signals (even independent) to avoid paying the licence.

Still, never mind about that, it doesn’t really relate directly to firearms.

agricola
July 12, 2003, 09:02 AM
bombastic,

for a start, everyone knows about the TV licence and its a direct consequence of buying a television - do you object to paying road tax for the same reasons?

Secondly, I cannot find any links for that story you cite despite Google searches. Do you have more information, or a link to evidence it? In any case, as the law stands that is not a matter of "self defence" because the man was under no threat - the criminals were fleeing. As for the Police not being there despite witnessing it, well until that instantaneous matter-transportation system comes online we will have to wait for officers having to make their way to an area using normal means of transportation, which means time.

Still, I guess this means nothing coming from a violent minion of Her Nazi Majesty. Victory to the regime! :scrutiny:

MicroBalrog
July 12, 2003, 09:07 AM
until that instantaneous matter-transportation system comes online we will have to wait for officers having to make their way to an area using normal means of transportation, which means time.

And until that time, we'll need weapons for self-defense.

Mr. Bombastic
July 12, 2003, 10:00 AM
MicroBalrog, you took the words right out of my mouth. :D

The rolling pin story was on page 19 of yesterdays Daily Mail.

MicroBalrog
December 18, 2003, 01:06 PM
Thanks Mr. Bombastic. I do think this thread needs some kicking in these dire days.

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