[Blain]

After reading Boston's Gun Bible 2002 Revised Ed. and after browsing AIM surplus and Southern Ohio Gun International I have been getting more and more interested with the "Ancient" battle rifles of the 19th century. Bolt action rifles in 30 caliber, these should make fine battle, truck, or cabin rifles. And at usually under $100 they seem to be quite the bargin. Would sleep a lot easier having a $100 M44 in my trunk than a 1000+ AR or FAL, who cares if it is stolen. On top of all that, many of these rifles can be shipped right to your door (or so I've heard) since they qualify as relic firearms.

Does anyone know good sources to get such cheap bargin battle rifles? At 300 yrds + these bolt actions do the job nearly as well as a modern semi auto 30 cal.

The rifles I have seen and am considering so far are the,

1. Russian M44 Carbine for $60:
http://www.southernohiogun.com/images/slg-m44sm.jpg
These are a carbine version of the 30" barreled M91/30. They havea 5 round capacity and are chambered in 7.62x54R, a powerful round! (185/2680 = 2951 fpe) I think this firearm is classified as a relic so it can be shipped direct to your door. Think ammo is fairly available.

2. RUSSIAN MN 91/30 WITH BAYONET UNISSUED - $90
http://www.southernohiogun.com/images/SLG-RMN9130.jpg
Fullsized version of the above with bayonet, unissued!


3. Hungarian STEYR M95 with 100 rounds 8x56R - $90 Delivered
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/hungarianm95special.gif
40" rifle with 20" barrel. The 8x56 round delivers 2400 fpe (208 at 2280). Not a bad little truck gun, though it does not state the rifles capacity.

4. ORIGINAL NO. 5 MKI JUNGLE CARBINES - $160
http://www.southernohiogun.com/images/mk1_a.jpg
Origonal WWII rifles with 20" barrels, flash suppressor, and 10 round magazines. Chambered in the ever popular .303 (2226 fpe) The most expensive of the bunch, but arguably the most effecive as well (a 10 round .30 rifle is quite some power.

5. SWISS SCHMIDT RUBIN K-31 7.5 SWISS CAL - $100
http://www.southernohiogun.com/images/SLG-K31S.A.jpg
A very powerful and accurate rifle with a 5 round capacity. Chambered in 7.5 Swis.


Well, there you have it. Which of the following battle rifles do you recommend? Which of the above would you pick for

A. A battle rifle
B. A truck rifle
C. A Cabin Rifle
D. Best rifle for all the above?

[Watchman]

Good post.

I have the rifle s that you mentioned, along with several that you didnt mention.

All of them are great shooters and all of them would be effective.

For a battle rifle I would pick the Smidt Rubin. Very acurate and very quick acting due to the straight pull bolt.

For the truck rifle I would go with the Jungle Carbine or the M-44. Both are short and powerful. The .303 does have less muzzle blast than the M-44 which is considerable.

Cabin rifle, same as above.

Best all around bolt would be the Jungle Carbine. Its short, light and accurate. Ammo is not hard to find, even Walmart carries it. 7.62 x 54r will only be found in gunshops and the 7.5 Swiss is very hard to find and expensive.


I'd personally stay away from the Steyr. While it is collectable, it uses a somewhat lower powered 8 mm than the newer WW2 stuff and the correct ammo is also hard to chase down.

The jungle carbine gets my vote.

[Ian]

The two I've used are the Enfield and the Mosins (I've handled all the other, but not fired them). My favorite is definitely the Enfield - it's much faster the use than a Mosin, and its sights are much better than most of its contemporaries. The magazine is also larger and much easier to load up. I would bet that I could deliver aimed fire faster with an Enfield than any of the others, including the straight-pulls.

[4v50 Gary]

Unless your manly and enjoy punishment, stay away from the Moisin Nagant carbines. You got to be a big man and like beatings to shoot that (OK, I'm a whimp).

I like my M91/30 with the PU scope. Good, accurate gun. I'll take that over the carbine easily. Besides being heavier (more mass & wt & less recoil), it's pretty rugged and durable. Unfortunately, it's not on the list above.

I like the SMLE Enfield, but I wouldn't go w/the Jungle Carbine. That flash suppressor resulted in the wandering zero problem. I'd go Swiss. It looks good with the knife. ;)

[Greg L]

I have been getting more and more interested with the "Ancient" battle rifles of the 19th century.

You may want to go with those of the 20th century. Those from the 19th are probably too valuable to be bouncing around on the floor of your truck ;) .

Any of those that you mentioned should serve you well for the various purposes mentioned (and they are all C&R so you can (with a C&R FFL) have them shipped to the house.

My choice for the truck gun would be either the M44 or the Enfield. You really need a shorter carbine as you won't have as much room to swing the rifle around. For a cabin any of them are fine although I would probably go with a full sized on there as you don't have to worry about dragging it around as much.

The K31 is probably the most inherently accurate rifle of the batch but it is probably also the heaviest. Also ammo is not easy to find and is more expensive than any of the others.

Overall my pick would go towards the Enfield, either the Jungle that you mentioned or a full sized on (for around the cabin). However you really can't go too far wrong with any of them.

Greg

[nextjoe]

I'd pick the Swiss. Beautiful workmanship, a lot better than what you see on the vast majority of commercial guns today.

Best,
Joe

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

IIRC, the Enfield Jungle Carbines wandering zero came from lightening cuts made to the receiver. I understand that the Gibbs reworks of other Enfields to Jungle Carbine specifications do not include these said machinings and do not have the problem of wandering zero. If you've never fired a full-house .303 round through an Enfield carbine it's not fair to compare it more favorably to the M44 in my experience. The 148 grain Russian ammo does not seem any different to me in terms of recoil through my M44's than the standard .303 through a light Enfield. However, I don't reccomend a lenghty bench session with either rifle with only the steel buttplate against your shoulder.

You are quite correct in the .303 being much more readily available at more locations than other cartriges listed. An option to consider would be a Mauser M98 in .308 Winchester /7.62 NATO or 30-06 if ammunition availability were a genuine concern in a pinch.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[seeker_two]

...I have been getting more and more interested with the "Ancient" battle rifles of the 19th century.

Then I'd recommend the "Trapdoor" Springfield or Remington Rolling Block in .45-70...:D

For the early 20th Century, I'd recommend the No.1 Mk. 3 or No.4 Mk.1 Enfields. You can get either in carbine form and not have to worry about the problems of the No. 5 Mk. 1. .303 ammo is also more widely available.

Second would be the M/N, but be prepared to add $50-80 for a stock change. The issue ones are HARSH in recoil. While ammo isn't found in every Wal-Mart (but it's changing), you can usually afford to stockpile it when you find it.

Other .308 rifles to consider:
1. Spanish FR-8
2. Israeli Mauser conversion
3. No. 7 Enfields

Happy hunting...

[critter]

I can't argue with any of your choices. I, however, prefer to 'play with' old battle rifles of the Muser 98 type. They are readily avialable in the same price range, are plentiful enough so that they are not all 'collectable' and are superb firearms. They can be used as is, heavily sporterized or customized into magnificient firearms.

They are available in, among other calibers, the ever plentiful 8mm mauser, 7mm mauser, 7.62 NATO (.308 win), 30-06, etc. Have fun with them!

[Freightman]

All are good choices, I like the 8MM Mauser as the ammo is cheap (although crrosive) got 700 rds Greek from Century for $40 + shipping $12and I ordered 1000 rds of 7.62x54R. I can shoot a long time with 1700 rds of ammo.
The recoil on the M44 is a little stiff but after while you don't notice it as it is fun.

[Wildalaska]

Dont forget Swedish Mausers...the most accurate out there, low recoil. Get an M38 for the truck and an M96 for the house.

Wildloves6.5x55Alaska

[Duncan Idaho]

I love my K-31. Magazine capacity is 6 BTW.

Great action, great sights, absolutely outstanding trigger, and I got it from a friend that gave it to me in return for my having repaired his wellhouse (tree damage to the roof).

It is one of the most accurate rifles that I have ever shot. Get the Swiss issue ammo for it whenever possible. Each round is loaded to match-grade standards.

Try your local gun show, Shotgun News, or www.swissrifles.com

[JeFF D]

many of these rifles can be shipped right to your door (or so I've heard) since they qualify as relic firearms.


Yes they can be shipped right to your door, but first you need a curio & relics license.

check out www.milsurpshooter.net for more info.

Also I wouldnt be discouraged from buying an M44 cause of the "harsh recoil" I think you should shoot it first. I weigh 135lbs and I consider M44's to have quite mild recoil, maybe im recoil tolerant. But all my friends that have shot them also agree that the recoil is quite mild after you get used to it.
-jeff

[telewinz]

I love the old battle rifles from the 40's and 50's. I have a K98k and a 1903A3 Springfield but imho they can't hold a candle to the FN49, Hakim, SKS, or M1 carbine. Why should I work the bolt if I can use a design that does it for me?

[TODD3465]

The only problem is it never stops with just one milsurp.

:D

[mainmech48]

A couple of other alternatives: Ishapore Lee Enfield in 7.62x51 NATO (.308). All of the virtues of the basic design with better ammo supply. Not the best "truck" rifle maybe, due to length, but great for a cabin or retreat.

Ditto the Mauser 98s. 7.92x57 is a great cartridge, but my personal choice would be one converted to .308 or 30-06. Be aware that many of the Spanish "Guardia Civil" carbines were converted '96 actions and that the pressure standards for military 7.62x51 are a good deal less than those for SAAMI spec .308.

Moisins have a lot of fans, and they're cheap and servicable. I find the action to be awkward, but that's just my opinion. There're a lot of aftermarket doodads for them now.

I have both an Ishapore and a K31. The Swiss rifle is beautifully made, rugged, and extremely accurate. Commercial ammo is becoming somewhat more available, but it's still not something your local Wally World is likely to have. The Enfield shoots almost as well, but only once you've found the particular load it likes best.

#5s are neat looking, but the "wandering zero" problem is real and annoying. The recoil with that short stock, brass buttplate, and .303 surplus ammo can be unpleasant, too.

Unless it just HAS to be a BA with a "500 yd." cartridge, I'd choose an SKS for all of the above uses. Inexpensive, reliable, accurate, easy to shoot, relatively high cartridge capacity, quick to reload, dirt-cheap ammo available everywhere, lots of parts and aftermarket doohickies, etc. ad infinitum.

[Marko Kloos]

3. Hungarian STEYR M95 with 100 rounds 8x56R - $90 Delivered

40" rifle with 20" barrel. The 8x56 round delivers 2400 fpe (208 at 2280). Not a bad little truck gun, though it does not state the rifles capacity.


I have one of those, and it serves as my trunk rifle. They are very small and light, and easy to load thanks to the Mannlicher en-bloc clip system. The Mannlicher clips hold 5 rounds, and they fall out of the bottom of the magazine when the ammo is expended. It's a neat little rifle, and packs quite a wallop for something barely bigger than an M1 Carbine. The action is a straight-pull bolt, like the Schmidt Rubin.

That said, it would be my last pick off your list for one reason: it shoots the obsolete 8x56R Hungarian round. That ammunition is very difficult to find, since it was last loaded by Nazi Germany in the 1940s. All the currently available ammo is corrosive and berdan-primed. To top it all off, the bullet diameter of the 8x56R Hungarian is .329" versus the much more common .323", so even if you manage to reload the cases you'll have issues with undersized bullets. Even if you do find surplus ammo, it's not really cheap, and you need the Mannlicher clips with it...without the clips, the Steyr is a single-shot rifle.

A. A battle rifle
B. A truck rifle
C. A Cabin Rifle
D. Best rifle for all the above?

From that list, I'd take the Enfield for a battle rifle for its fast action and high capacity. For a truck rifle, it would be the Mosin M44 for its power and short overall size (and expendability). For a cabin rifle, any of the ones on your list will do just fine. Most accurate and most well-made is the Schmidt Rubin, although ammo is a bit pricy. Overall, I'd give the No.5 Jungle Carbine the nod as most versatile rifle of the bunch.

[DMK]

IMO, the Mosin-Nagant carbine is the best bang for the buck of those mentioned. The Enfield Jungle Carbines are cool, but you aren't going to find them in the nice condition that AIM's M44s (or their excellent 91/59 carbines) at anywhere near the same price.

Also, surplus 7.62x54R ammo is much cheaper than surplus .303 Brit.

However, be aware that most surplus ammo for these old bolt actions and all surplus ammo in 7.62x54R is corrosive (don't believe the SOG ads!). Squirt some windex w/ammonia down the bore after shooting, then clean normally.

If the recoil of these little guns give you fits, use a slip on recoil pad. I do and it helps a LOT. No point in hurting yourself or developing a flinch just to be a tough guy.

[telewinz]

IMHO the best all around rifle is the SKS, but in a few years that could change with the supply and demand market. How about a nickel plated SKS for rust proofing?

[MolonLabe416]

Tab another vote for the Jungle Carbine. Outstanding handling. Excellent sights. One of the fastest bolt actions ever designed. The ammo is more readily available than the Swiss or Russian.

In re the wandering zero problem. Some do, some don't. It's minute-of-felon either way.

[Okiecruffler]

Makes me feel like a real man everytime I run a few hundred rounds thru mine.

From your list, I would pick the M44. But even tho' it's not on your list, there are still great deals on yugo and czech mausers.

SOG is my favorite supplier, but I hear good things about AIM as well.

[cool45auto]

Isn't that cool? You could get all of those rifles for about $500! I love old battle rifles, I've got a good start on a collection and I'm not out that much at all.:D

[swingset]

I must add to these opinions one thing...

There is little merit in the "wandering zero" problem in No5 Enfield's.

There are few Enfield experts alive who give any credence to this myth. Ian Skennerton, Petrillo, Redgewell, you name it, they all will laugh at the notion.

Having owned a great many Jungle Carbines, I've never found this to be an authentic abberation of the gun. As a matter of fact, my current No5's are amongst the best shooting, most consistent SMLE actions I've ever owned or shot. Honestly, of the 7 or 8 I've owned, they were all either consistently very accurate or consistently above average for an Enfield, but never "wandering".


The Brits were very loath to keep bolt actions in service after WWII, when all their contemporaries were switching to auto-loaders, and it's the opinion of many experts that the "wandering zero" stories were exaggerated to expedite the rifle's retirement from active service. It doesn't take an expert to see the lightening cuts are not indicative of the kind of receiver modification that would produce such a noticeable performance detriment.

[Malone LaVeigh]

I have an M-38 and I wish I had bought the full sized. I put about 20 shots through it right after I got it and felt like I had been in a fight.

It did give me a tremendous amount of respect for the Russian soldiers of WWII, though.

I also got a Garand recently. Now I wonder how the Germans lasted as long as they did.

But that being said, my next milsurp will probably be a Mauser 98. Y'all have piqued my interest in an Enfield, though.

Malone "hoping I bought a big enough safe" LaVeigh

[Greg L]

Malone "hoping I bought a big enough safe" LaVeigh
You didn't ;)

(of course I've heard that if you take the bolts out of the rifles and put the bolts in the safe to keep them inopperable you can put a dozen or so of the receivers and woodwork under your bed with a reasonably clear conscience :rolleyes: (it is when they start to migrate to under the kids beds that you may want to think of another safe :D ))

Greg

[dude]

my #1 truck gun is my IMI Timberwolf, but there are VERY hard to replace if stolen so what I end up using is my Styer 98 Mauser in .308/NATO x 51. While unlike the most of the choices here in this thread it costs around $180............. it still 'lives' in the truck most often.

Heck if it gets stolen the 'perp' had better know that the NATO stamp under the Styer crest means that it has been factory re-barreled to .308, otherwise he could have some intresting, it not a bit hazardous times attempting to feed it!

[chieftain]

dude,

Talk to me about that timberwolf. caliber etc.

how does it shoot? any FTF?

about 9 years ago went to a Gun show, saw a timber wolf thought about and decided no.

Walking out the door I changed my mind, went back and it was gone! haven't seen one for sale since.

by the way I think the selection of any of these weapons would be good.

I personally use a winchester model 94 for my truck/car longarm. don't worry to much if it is stolen either, only have $240 in it.

Thinking of getting the stainless Marlin 336 and mounting a red dot on it. something with out batteries like an anderson occluded red dot.

You know the real poormans scout rifle.

Fred

[dude]

The Timberwolf is THE most fun rifle I have ever shot.


I've been looking for one since stupidly not buying one while in Isreal back in 97.


Old Sacramento Armory is selling 'kits' of all new parts but missing 14 or so small springs and pins for only $180 or so. The only major part missing is the extractor. I bought one off of ebay for $30-ish and my smith used it as a pattern to make more&better ones.

The rifle shoots great and dead-on out to 100m or so. I have only sent 400 or so rounds downrange but very few of them have missed. The only trouble I've had is with aluminum cased CCI Blazer as the rifle action does not like the sharp edged rims.

I am a but shocked at power of the .357mag round from a rifle barrel. I have shoot my 6" Dan Wesson at the same targets as the rifle........... and the audible sound of the impact along with the actuall movement of whatever is being shot at (tire rims ect) of the rifle over the revolver is amazing. It seems to be twice as powerful at longer ranges.

It's my favorite rifle by far.

[chieftain]

Thank you

Mr dude.

Fred

[mainmech48]

Chieftan: I've had a .357 Timberwolf for a little over ten years now. I have a couple of other .357 carbines (two Rossi '92 clones-16 1/2" & 20" bbl, and a Savage 24) but the little pump is my favorite.

Aside from its action, it has some other unique features. The butt stock is adjustable for "drop". You can set it up to fit you like a good shotgun so that when you bring it to your shoulder your eyes and the sights are perfectly aligned. You just focus on the target and squeeze - the can will dance or the rabbit will drop. Once it's set up for you, it's almost scary how quickly and easily you can hit small targets out to 50 yds.

The integral optics mount has appeal for some, as anything with Weaver-style rings will fit. Personally, I'd rather have the slicker receiver profile it'd have without it for ease of carry at the balance point and to make it possible to mount a good "peep" receiver sight. On the "plus"side, it's hell-for-rugged, you can't lose it, and it'll never come loose.

It weighs less than six pounds fully loaded with ten rounds, carry strap and swivels and is just 37 1/2" long.

With .38 Spl.s or mid-range .357 loads, it's a great small game carbine. The mild report seems to "spook" the other squirrels less than the crack of HV .22 LRs. I've never lost any game animal or varmint I've hit with it. With full .357 loads, coyotes and feral dogs out to about 80 yds. drop instantly with a solid shoulder hit. It'd do for deer with the right load at that range in a pinch, where legal.

For home defense, especially in a rural setting, it'd be a great choice with 125 gr. magnums, delivering significantly more of the "lightning bolt" effect that made that load the top stopper in police revolvers for many, many, years.

I think that IMI originally designed it for police use, and hoped to sell lots of them over here to LEAs as patrol carbines. They were a bit behind the curve, unfortunately, as the move to self-loaders as a duty sidearm was gathering momentum by the time it got here. It also had a design "flaw" which hampered it somewhat in "tactical" situations from an LEOs standpoint: the tube magazine can only be loaded with the action open. It might've been more widely considered if "tactical" reloads could've been done with the bolt in battery. For us civilians where the likelihood of a protracted firefight is slim, I don't think it's a big issue.

While I love my lever-actions, of whatever caliber, if I could have only one carbine the Timberwolf is the one I'd keep.

[chieftain]

MainMech48

That was a super run down.

Now I am really depressed that I didn't get that one.

But if I get another oportunity, don't get in my way.

Thank you

Fred

[greg531mi]

No one thought about a M-1 Carbine? I have one thats my cabin gun, and with 30 round mags, there is plenty of firepower...I bought mine for $65, and it was not that long ago....

[Gewehr98]

First things first...

#5s are neat looking, but the "wandering zero" problem is real and annoying. The recoil with that short stock, brass buttplate, and .303 surplus ammo can be unpleasant, too.

The "wandering zero" perpetrates itself time and again. I agree with Swingset, Skennerton, et al. My own 1945-vintage No5Mk1 has no problem keeping it's groups where they're dialed in, regardless of shooting session. Recoil is a good deal more pronounced, especially with 174gr MkII ball ammo. One thing that is noticeable about these Jungle Carbines is that the kingscrew (action screw) in the stock loosens, which would cause zeroing problems with any rifle were it allowed to get that way. BTW, there's no brass buttplate in a true No5Mk1, it uses the cupped rubber recoil pad. Gibbs/Fibbs made ersatz carbines with leftover brass buttplates from NoIMkIII SMLE rifles, and No4Mk1 rifles. But then, Gibbs' gunsmithing skills in production of those "instant historical collectables" are legendary, right? :scrutiny:

For the price, you aren't going to see many more original No5Mk1 Jungle Carbines in circulation. The current batch came from Malaysia, once they're sold off, they will once again start climbing in price. Which is true for almost any milsurp battle rifle, and I've missed grabbing more than a few when they were cheaply available.:banghead:

[Cosmoline]

I've shot most of those, and the best bang for the buck of that batch is the K-31. HANDS DOWN. They are very well engineered and use some of the finest ball ammo ever made for any nation. It's a little more expensive than most surplus ammo, but you're basically getting competition-grade sniper ammo. My K-31 shoots MOA, as do many others.

[dave5339]

I'll second the opinion on the Swedish Mausers! They are great rifles! They are super accurate, have a mild recoil and are available for reasonable prices.

My wife and I keep wanting to sporterize one of our M-96's but we don't have the heart to do it. Guess we'll just have to wait till we pick up an M-38. In fact one of our 96's now wears a 42mm red dot sight, it looks goofy as anything but it works!

Semper Fi

[Brann'ed]

For the best cheap trunk rifle I use in Oregon two types:

8mm (super cheap ammo)
#1 Yugo M48A (Century) $66.01 to my door "Good" condition Mauser.

7.62x54R (cheap new ammo at $1.95/box 20)
#1 Russian M44 in "Excellent" condition (SOG) $59.95

Both ammo and rifles are cheap, but heavy hitters. I like the Mauser better, but the M44 is a close second. The stripper-clips always work in my mausers, but not so in the Russian NM series of rifles.

[Art Eatman]

Hey, Brann'ed! Welcome to THR!

:), Art

[goon]

I would go with the M-44 for a truck gun and the 91/30 for a real shooter.
I the M-44's are not known for their award winning accuracy, but they are pretty good guns. The Schmidt-Rubins are known to be among the most accurate, but ammo is expensive and not as easy to find as the 7.62x54 Russian. The Jungle carbines have some smack, but they also smack you. Good for hunting or a truck gun, but not really good for a shooter because they beat you. I would choose a full size rifle if accuracy and shootability are primary concerns. You can shoot a full size Mosin all day and not have a bruised shoulder.
To me, the Mosin-Nagant is the best, but I am also biased. An Enfield holds pretty even ground as does a Mauser, but the MN fits me best. Maybe you should add $100 and buy a Finn M-39.
They rock.
BTW- you need a C&R license to get them shipped to your door.
Check the C&R forums on the Guns Network to learn some more.

[coldshot03/04]

Finn M39 Mosin Nagant
L1A1 308cal

[pinetree64]

My truck box gun is a Yugo M48A 8mm Mauser. $139 for all matching serial #'s. Shoots great with surplus ammo. My next purchase is a Persian Mauser.

Of the ones you mentioned I'd go with the M44. I like Jungle Enfiled, but they have cracked stocks, at least the ones I saw for $160 did. The other two use "exotic" ammo. The 7.62x54 is dirt cheap.

Others listed were:

FR-8 cool gun, mine was $250, found out it had excessive headspace and sold it... Hard to find.

Israeli Mauser: (Mausers converted to 308) Most have issues e.g. bulged barrels.

One other suggestion, one that I'm contemplating, is the lowly SKS. $189 for a like new. You can get 30rd mags, but I don't know how well these work.

tjg

[Okiecruffler]

But just a note on those 30rd mags. I have two, they both work great as long as you only load 15 rounds in them. I have 3 20rd mags, one works perfectly, the other 2 pretty much turn the gun into a single shot.