[Vladimir Berkov]

Does something like this exist? I am looking for a good self defense load in .38 and it can't be plus-p. All I can find is LRN and FMJ!

[sm]

Win STHP 110 gr. # X38S9HP

Win LSWC 158 gr # X38WCPSV

Fed LSWC 158 gr # C38C

Rem also, my data has walked off.

Black Hills , http://www.black-hills.com/

Gray Area Ammo,
WESHOOT2@aol.com

[Jim March]

Depends on barrel length. From a 2", I don't think you'll get expansion period...so run 148 target lead wadcutters or a 158 Keith-style (lead).

From a 4" tube I don't think my advice would change, although I'd need to look into the matter in more detail.

We know that the Gold Dot hollowpoints expand at around 825fps, the average 158 lead hollowpoint somewhat similar or a bit faster (definitely by 850). If you can get that out of a 4" barrel without +P, that's the answer. Might take a 5" or 6" barrel to do it - Weshoot2 at Gray Area would know and can custom-load either projectile.

Mind you, if your 38Spl gun can't take ANY plusP fodder, I'd have to question it as a defensive choice.

[Vladimir Berkov]

The revolver in question has a 5" barrel, so whatever I shoot should expand if it ever will.

The gun is a 1950 vintage S&W M&P, and I was under the impression that plus-p ammo was a "no no."

[sm]

Jim, I was taking from original post it was a snubby. I agree and forgot to mention the target WC.

What do you figure (anybody chron'd) the 148 gr WC from a 1 7/8" -2" bbl?
Published (4"V bbl) is around 710 fps.

VB, nice gun. Me, I go with 158 LSWC.
For sure Contact WESHOOT.

[Jim March]

Vladimir,

I checked both the Black Hills and Georgia Arms websites. They don't load the 125 Gold Dot in non-plusP flavor.

Proload has a standard pressure 110 that's rated 1,000fps from a 5" tube. I don't know which projectile this is, you could call Proload and ask:

http://www.proload.com/shoppingcart/default.asp?show_cal=9

That's one choice. Having Weshoot2 brew you something up based on the Gold Dot at around...875 - 900 should be possible in that gun, is another option.

That would work nicely, as long as they're the larger-cavity version meant for 38+P. Or the 158 lead hollowpoint at around the same speed.

[Old Fuff]

I am somewhat suprised to learn that one can't defend themselves with anything less then a +P load. What ever did we do before they came along? The trick, if there is one, is to be a good enough shot to place you're bullets where intended, and then know where - exactly where- to put them for the desired effect. I learned this from a British SAS officer who had substantial field experience in this business. He worried little about the shape, size or design of a bullet and was VERY proficient in its placement.

I doubt that LIMITED use of +P loads from Winchester, Remington or Federal would damage a 1950's period Smith & Wesson Military & Police revolver. But on the other hand I wouldn't consider them to be absolutely necessary for self-defense.

There is now, or was a short time before, a thread on this forum concerning handloading 148 grain wadcutters to regular .38 Special specifications. Interested parties will find a lot of good information there.

[Kentucky Rifle]

.38 Special: Non +P, 1705 fps/385 ft.lbs.
All my pistols are loaded with RBCD.

KR

[Hutch]

I'm with Fuff and Pig on this one. Shoot a few cylinders full to make sure of the point of aim, practice with standard pressure, and keep it loaded with +P for carry/defense. If your life is on line, a little accelerated wear is the last of your troubles.

[Sparky]

Don't know if they're still out there but there was a non +P Nyclad load with A 125 gr. swchp. It was supposedly designed for short barreled 38s.

[Jim March]

Those Nyclads are out of production :(.

[bpisler]

Hornaday loads a non +P 125gr XTP for the 38spl.

[bountyhunter]

.38 non-plus-P defense load? Does something like this exist? I am looking for a good self defense load in .38 and it can't be plus-p. All I can find is LRN and FMJ!

I have some 110-grain Hydra-Shoks in .38SP that are not +p rated. They have the standard hollow point Hydra Shock head on them. I got them a few years back, not sure if they are still offered.

[Jim March]

'Cept they suck. They don't even make 800fps in a snub. Typical pathetic Federal powder charge.

Mind you, in a 5" tube they might get up enough of a head of steam to expand.

[Jeff OTMG]

Kentucky Rifle beat me to it. RBCD even if they are only doing 1500 fps out of a 2" barrel, that is still screaming for a standard pressure .38.

[Vladimir Berkov]

What is RBCD?

[Jeff OTMG]

www.rbcd.net is the website, as it is. If you click on the products tab it will show you all the calibers and velocities. Hopefully we are going to be shooting a new video with calibrated gelatin and we are going to do it from 15 feet, not 30 feet. Roscoe found out that shooting an 8"x8" block at 15 feet with anything from 9mm up that the block was blown apart. We are going to try 16"x16" blocks at 15 feet and hope they hold together. Then we will shoot a Gold Dot to show the difference. If you are a believer in light and fast bullets, at standard pressure, with intermediate barrier penetration capability, for lower cost than Glaser Safety Slugs and MagSafes, then RBCD might be the load for you.

[care-less]

Federal Nyclad is as good as it gets in non plus P. It is still available.

[MarineTech]

Federal Nyclad is as good as it gets in non plus P. It is still available.

Where do you find it? Federal dosen't list a non +P nyclad load anywhere on their website anymore, even in the Law Enforcement and Government sections.

The original 125gr. Nyclad load was P38M. I can't find any reference to it anymore. I've still got 2 boxes left on hand that I've been hoarding since I got them from a friend that was a retiring Police Chief. I would certainly like to get more. It may not be the best load out there currently, but it's no slouch, and was made specifically for the smaller Chief's Special sized .38s. Recoil is very mild, and there's no worry about bullets backing out of the cases under recoil (Something that +P ammo has a tendency to do out of a lightweight revolver.).

[Sox]

Believe it or not 148Grain Wadcutter is highly rated as a viable defense loading in the standard velocity. This is pretty mild in lighter revos. Look at ammo lab, tactical forums, and www.firearmstactical.com. These sites have some great info.

[Frenchy]

I'm running Remington 158gr. LSWC through my M&P for duty carry. I don't feel I've lost anything with this load.

[Jeff OTMG]

The 148gr LHBWC is NOT a good defensive load. Back in the early 70's, when cops still carried revolvers, there was a officer in Lawton, Okla who had been on the range the week before. He had left his gun loaded with WC ammo. When he shot a fleeing felon in the back, twice, the slugs stopped in the guys back, penetrating less than 1". One was stopped by a vertebra lower in the back, the other up high between the shoulder blades.

[capnrik]

The 148gr LHBWC is NOT a good defensive load. Back in the early 70's, when cops still carried revolvers, there was a officer in Lawton, Okla who had been on the range the week before. He had left his gun loaded with WC ammo. When he shot a fleeing felon in the back, twice, the slugs stopped in the guys back, penetrating less than 1".

Jeff, finish the story. Did it stop the felon?

In the early '70's, I commonly carried a Colt's Detective Special with 148 grain HOLLOW BASE Wadcutters, loaded over 5 grains of Red Dot. Got confused and inverted the slugs in the case. ;)

[Old Fuff]

As I remember, in those days most police departments bought reloaded ammunition for practice & qualification. Since the stuff was purchased on a low-bid basis most of it had just enough Bullseye in the case to insure the bullet would exit the bore - although I've known of cases where it didn't. Anyway, I have carried handloaded HBWC's /800FPS/4" barrel, in older revolvers and not worried much about the consequences.

[Jeff OTMG]

He did not stop, at least not until he showed up at the hospital with two slugs in his back.