A Question for military members


PDA






chrisslamar
September 4, 2007, 03:07 PM
Hello all. First of all I have to say this board has been the greatest I've ever read, and will miss reading it for some time. I've just joined the army and am shipping out on 13 September. My question for any of the members who have served is what is basic marksmanship training like at basic? I've read a little but would like some input from those who have a shooters mind. I know this I pretty vauge and wish I could narrow it down, but I just don't have enough to know what to ask. Hope I can narrow it down after some information. Thanks as always in advance for all the information, and thanks again for all the information I've learned for you all.

--Chris

If you enjoyed reading about "A Question for military members" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
strat81
September 4, 2007, 03:12 PM
I can't answer your question, but thank you for serving. Stay safe.

Devonai
September 4, 2007, 03:18 PM
Good luck at basic. I did OSUT at Fort Benning in 2005.

Basic Rifle Marksmanship for an established shooter like me was boring. We spent endless time balancing washers on our barrels and fooling around with "shadow boxes," a device that is supposed to enhance your ability to get a proper sight picture. The ETS (Engagement Training Simulator) is a little fun, but we only used it for qual practice and not combat.

Fortunately, Advanced Rifle Marksmanship is much more entertaining, and involves a lot more time on the live-fire ranges.

Don't bother practicing before you go unless you enjoy that sort of thing. You will have more than enough practice in White Phase.

crazed_ss
September 4, 2007, 03:21 PM
In the Army or Marines?

My experience was in the Marines. First you do some classes that explains the details of the M-16. Then you learn about the fundamentals of Marksmanship (breathing, trigger control, etc).. They teach you how to acheive a good standing, kneeling, and prone position. They want you to shoot how they teach you to shoot.. so if you dont have much experience, dont worry about it. If you do have experience, you might get yelled at if you're doing something contrary to what they're teaching. You also learn how to work the sight adjustments on the M-16.

Then you do one week of snapping in. That is you sit around a barrel with little targets painted on it and dry fire for like 2 hours a day. During this time, the Primary Marskmanship Instructor (PMI) and you Drill Instructors (DI) will observe everyone's shooting position and make sure you're doing it right.

The next week, you do live-fire at the rifle range. Monday-Weds is practice and Thurs is qual day. You shoot the same string of fire everyday, so buy Thursday, you should be good to go. On friday we did field-fire and night-fire which involves moving targets, gas masks, etc.

IIRC the string of fire for the known distance course is something like this:
200 yds
-15 rds slow fire in a time limit of 20 mins. 5 rounds each position
-10 rounds rapid fire (two mags of 5) in time limit of 70 secs, Kneeling.

300yds
-5 rds slow fire in a time limit of 4 mins. Kneeling
-10 rounds rapid fire (two mags of 5) in time limit of 70 secs, Kneeling.

500yds
-10 rds slow fire in a time limit of 10 minutes. Prone

The string of fire may have changed a little, but I think that's basically it. It's important that you're confident with how to adjust the sights, because when the wind starts kicking up, the 500yd line becomes pretty challenging.



EDIT: DUHHHH.. I noticed you said Army in your first sentence.. nevermind :)

esmith
September 4, 2007, 03:25 PM
Thanks for serving. Godspeed.

Jdude
September 4, 2007, 04:53 PM
The courses in the Army are designed for the lowest possible denominator- people who have never touched nor seen a rifle before.

If you have an understanding of shooting, you will be very bored. You will not likely gain any new skills. Use the time to help others learn their skills.

However, don't worry if you have never gone shooting before. The rifle doesn't kick hard or hurt as long as you are on the correct side of it, and they teach you enough to hit a 300 meter (318 yard) target that is the size of an average man.

chrisslamar
September 4, 2007, 07:09 PM
thanks for all the input. I'm going into the army, I cant't believe I forgot to put that oops. So its now my understanding that since I have spent many an hour practicing with my AR I should be fine, maybe very bored, but fine. thanks again.

-- Chris

wideym
September 4, 2007, 07:43 PM
I went to Basic in 1988, but the new joes say rifle marksman ship now includes shooting with body armor on. The range has popup targets at random intervals and ranges 50-300 meters. To qualify you need to shoot at least 28 out of 40 targets. 20 rounds prone supported, 10 rounds prone unsupported, and 10 rounds kneeling. Expert is 36 out of 40. (I can't remember the numbers for sharpshooter.) Army ranges are long hot miserable days. Be sure you get a good zero before transitioning to the qual range.

jt1
September 5, 2007, 03:13 AM
chrisslamar - You might be surprised at the level and quality of training available. It's like anything else, you get out what you put in. Of course there is much more than just basic marksmanship training. As you progress you will have opportunities to train on any number of weapons and destructive devices. Here is a link to the latest publications on the subject of your question; US ARMY FIELD MANUAL 3-22.9 RIFLE MARKSMANSHIP M16A1, M16A2/3, M16A4 and M4 CARBINE:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/index.html

This site has all of the unclassified manuals available, and you can look up the info covering your MOS as well. Even if you think you are well versed in basic weapons skills, It will be well worth your time to pay close attention to everything. I spent close to 22 years as an Army Ranger/Cav Scout and I still learn things every time I remember to keep my eyes and ears open and my mouth shut. Good luck and thanks for your service.

squadfounder
September 5, 2007, 03:28 AM
The previous posts have said it pretty well. When I went through, the people who did the best at the qualification were those who paid attention to the fundamentals that were taught (the boring part) and put their preconceived notions of how to shoot aside and did what they were told. I had shot many times before, but this was the first with an M16/AR style weapon. The fundamentals work. As others have said, Advanced rifle marksmanship is a lot more entertaining.

U.S.SFC_RET
September 5, 2007, 06:13 AM
They will teach you everything you will need to know. Best advise I can give you is to learn to think on your feet.

TheDisturbed1
September 5, 2007, 06:23 AM
45B Future-GreaseMonkey right here!

Best of Luck in basic bro! I am personally excited to get to basic, mostly personal reasons :p

My ship date is May 27 next year... i'm already going over material for machineguns and howitzers... I dont know what the marksmanship training is like yet, whether its boring or a hoot, make the best of it... truly, you might get off on some of these things that people dread ;)

Neo-Luddite
September 5, 2007, 07:58 AM
You will probably have a MUCH easier time than a non-shooter (although some say you have to unlearn bad habits sometimes, maybe true).
Unless things have changed Army BRM is 20 from foxhole w/ sand bags standing and 20 from prone. The targets are pop-ups at ranges to 300M---a giant automated shooting gallery---it's actually a lot of fun. Because of your MOS you will do some more advanced work in AIT (in the infantry (11B) we did ARM-more complicated with a more advanced and complex range with moving targets and pop ups-I'm sure you'll do that and more).

Two possible pitfalls to watch for----your weapon may be a real clunker and you can't judge just by appearences. Make sure the sights are not loose and damaged and shifting around on you. And second, try and enjoy it every step of the way and let them teach you; if they find out you know too much they might make you pay!

Good luck and stay safe--Mike.

OEF_VET
September 5, 2007, 08:08 AM
Just keep your mouth shut and pay attention to your Drill Sergeants. Those young men and women in the campaign hats know what they're talking about. Don't try to second-guess them with something you learned on the 'net or from Uncle Joe. Uncle Sam knows more about shooting people in the face than Uncle Joe could ever hope to know.

What's your MOS? (If you say anything besides combat arms, you better drop and give me 50, puke.)

There's really only one MOS in the Army - 11B Infantryman. The rest just support him. (I was an 11B for two years, and a 13F (FO) for 6.)

Colt
September 5, 2007, 08:27 AM
Good luck at boot.

When I went through m16 training in the AF, the qualification consisted of shooting at 3 different sized silhouttes offhand, leaning over a barrier, and the prone position.

You were directed to fire 3 shots at each sized target from each position.

Some recruits figured out you'd score best if you fired all your offhand shots at the large target, all your barricade shots at the medium target, and then save the small targets for when you're prone.

I didn't do that, but many did.

Thanks for serving.

Titan6
September 5, 2007, 08:29 AM
Like OEF VET said.

Seriously it is very likely that you have never shot the way the Army quailifies. In BCT the facilities are first class and they give you thousands of rounds to shoot. You will learn something. If you go in with a ''know it all'' attitude you will have a rough time.

Hobie
September 5, 2007, 08:50 AM
BMT is BASIC and conducted with the idea that everyone is a new shooter. There are plenty of good reasons for this.

I've some more general advice for you in your career (however long it lasts).

1. Enjoy. You'll meet some great people and some interesting people and some are both. You've got a lot in common just because you and they all chose to be where you are.
2. Record these people in a journal that you DON'T compromise. You'll want to remember the name of "that guy who knew all about ______ in 2007" when you're in 2027...
3. Get photos where/when you can. You'll want to share those and the memories at funerals and other reunions.
4. Enjoy the training. Do your best, never stop trying, but enjoy it. Lots to learn and they want you to learn.
5. There is always something to laugh at. Laugh at it. It helps when you're cold, wet, tired, broke, and far from home.
6. Always assume the best about the intentions of those around you. They wouldn't be there if they weren't trying. Be their friend even when they screw up and they'll be your friend. Refer to suggestion #1...
7. Remember that there have been a bunch of us who've gone through this (or worse) before you and made it through. We know what you're going through and we're thankful you stepped up to do it.
8. EVERYONE has a part to play. It might look easy and it might actually be easy but it is probably required. Appreciate that and remember suggestion #1.

I had a great 27 years, met a lot of great folks but can't remember all their names (well, not all the time), went through some tough times but made it through. Remembered that somebody was counting on me to do whatever it was I was told to do and never let anybody down. That is a good feeling right there.

Thank you for serving. You'll be in my prayers every day.

Dbl0Kevin
September 5, 2007, 11:48 AM
I went to Basic in 1988, but the new joes say rifle marksman ship now includes shooting with body armor on. The range has popup targets at random intervals and ranges 50-300 meters. To qualify you need to shoot at least 28 out of 40 targets. 20 rounds prone supported, 10 rounds prone unsupported, and 10 rounds kneeling. Expert is 36 out of 40. (I can't remember the numbers for sharpshooter.) Army ranges are long hot miserable days. Be sure you get a good zero before transitioning to the qual range.

This is pretty much spot on except you only need 23 of 40 to qualify with the minimum. Sharpshooter is 30-36 and Expert is 37-40. My biggest piece of advice is to make sure you get a good zero and once you do don't let anyone mess with it. I was hitting everything in front of me until the day of the LOMAH range where some busybody Sgt. had the bright idea of adjusting my sights for me. After that I couldn't hit crap. I almost didn't qualify cause I missed the first 6 targets until my Drill Sgt. told me I was hitting high. I had to aim about 2 feet below the target to hit it. Needless to say I was ticked.

Oh and be prepared to wait and wait and wait. You'll sit there for 6-8 hours with full body armor on in the heat waiting in order to shoot for about 2 minutes. Army ranges are more work than fun. It gets a little better depending on what unit you go to after basic but not much. At least then you can BS with your buddies while you're waiting around. :banghead:

Oh and I take it you're some kind of Armor MOS going to Knox? Good luck with that. I went to FLW for 31B OSUT. Just remember the Army is the easiest job in the world. All you have to do is be in the right uniform at the right place at the right time. HOOAH!

Dbl0Kevin
September 5, 2007, 11:59 AM
Just keep your mouth shut and pay attention to your Drill Sergeants. Those young men and women in the campaign hats know what they're talking about. Don't try to second-guess them with something you learned on the 'net or from Uncle Joe. Uncle Sam knows more about shooting people in the face than Uncle Joe could ever hope to know.

I hate to disagree with you here, cause I had great respect for my Drill Sgts. They knew a hell of a lot about being soldiers but man I heard some whoppers about shooting come out of their mouths that just made me shake my head. For instance....

"Now listen here privates you may think you know all about shootin' your daddy's huntin rifle, but I guarantee you don't know ***** about no 5.56 goin at five THOUSAND feet per second!!!" I was tempted to raise my hand and say DS you're right I sure don't know any 5.56 round that goes that fast!

Then my other favorite....

"Once you get your rifle zeroed in to you count the number of clicks you go to the right or left that way if you're ever on the battlefield and you need to pick up someone's rifle you can just adjust it right to there. Cause all the rifles are the same right???" Man my head almost exploded when I heard that one.

Flak_Jakett
September 5, 2007, 12:25 PM
The rifle marksmanship in the army is a piece of cake. The only one's who wash out of markmanship are the ones who WANT to wash out. Maybe there is a few who just can't shoot, but I doubt it. The M-16 family of weapons are just soooooo easy to shoot.

You'll probably have a harder time keeping your boots polished to the proper standard, cause we all know, that when you hide in the jungle shiney shiney boots are very important. And remember this, when deploying a claymore, just because it is called a knife edge sight, don't use a knife. Metal is a no no around blasting cap cored explosives. Oh, and the front towards enemy label is pretty self explanitory.

-edit- Doh!!! The newer one have peep sights. I forgot.

Devonai
September 5, 2007, 06:03 PM
Black leather boots are out, unfortunately, and the polishing standard is to ensure that the Joes are caring for them properly. If you are dumb enough to use parade gloss for anything but actual parades you'll get in as much trouble as if you hadn't polished your boots at all.

Besides, boots get all jacked up in five minutes off the hardball anyway.

Black Adder LXX
September 5, 2007, 06:26 PM
Good luck and thanks for serving. BRM was interesting for me back in 1987, but mostly because I hadn't really shot much before. It would probably be a little less exciting now, but M16's are really cool. Especially toward the end when you get to fire on the auto range. I'd say try to challenge yourself. In my day, when dinosaurs walked the earth, if you quaified 40 out of 40 you called that a 'Hawkeye'. In any case, challege yourself to qualify expert marksman, I think it's 36 out of 40. It sure looks great on your uniform, and most people don't have it. Again, thanks for serving. I went right out of HS and have never regretted it.

Soldier415
September 5, 2007, 07:21 PM
Here you can find an excerpt from the Army BRM Manual, FM 3-22-9

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/c04.htm

It lays out the Tasks, Conditions & Standards.

Flak_Jakett
September 6, 2007, 01:02 PM
Black leather boots are out, unfortunately, and the polishing standard is to ensure that the Joes are caring for them properly. If you are dumb enough to use parade gloss for anything but actual parades you'll get in as much trouble as if you hadn't polished your boots at all.

Besides, boots get all jacked up in five minutes off the hardball anyway.

Oh believe me, I KNOW ALL about shining boots!!!! Shining boots had to do with dicipline more than anything else. Just about everything in basic relates back to dicipline.

The suede boots don't need polishing and thus less maintenance, but now you have to deal with that damn gay french beret. THANKYOU General Schizminickie or whatever your name is for the the gay beret and the OVERLY successfull striker APC. BAH!

spooky_t
September 6, 2007, 03:20 PM
Good luck, God's speed & thank you.

If you enjoyed reading about "A Question for military members" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!