[rusty bubbles]

Wild Bill aparently always carried a pair of .36 navy colts, but according to current thinking,this caliber , in modern weapons, would be considered inadequate and lack "stopping power".

Is .36 the actual caliber, or is it in fact ,375"-more like 9mm?

Thanks for any info.
Rusty (newbie)

[Jim Watson]

.36 is the caliber, that is, the bore diameter. Grooves are deep and the ball was normally about .376" to seal. About as powerful as a .380, but Wm Hickock was an accurate shot and they didn't have antibiotics back then.

By the way, modern 9mm is .355". I don't know of a modern .375 pistol except the odd Dan Wesson .375 Super Mag.

[otcconan]

You sure he used cap and ball, or a cartridge conversion? I believe post Civil War, most of the guys out west went to conversions. That's one of the reasons Colt didn't come out with the SAA until later...there were so many conversions on the market it didn't make market sense. Lots of Navy's were converted, for example.

Course, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

[Ghost Tracker]

He was a cap & ball guy. He also "unloaded" his brace of Navy Colts everyday by PRACTICING, and reloaded afterward. Which may help explain why he wasn't too uncomfortable using a "minor" caliber. Legend says he wasn't especially fast, but exceedingly cool & collected taking time to carefully aim & squeeze the trigger.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

the fps of the .36 exceeded anything else at that time. it was on up there in available power and evidently considered the best handling revolver. WB was tough enuff, the only man to ever back John Wesley Hardin (notorious killer) down, and ran him out of town. not a man to trifle with.

[rusty bubbles]

Thanks guys, for the fast replies- .380 sounds more formidable than .36!
and as you say, Wild Bill seldom missed!

BTW- my sister in law had a .36 Kerr's patent revolver that belonged to her great grandfather during the Indian Mutiny back in 1857- you could replace the cylinder with one already loaded, by simply withdrawing the central pin,
and letting the empty one drop out-neat!

[Ghost Tracker]

Most Cap & Ball revolvers can be quickly reloaded with an extra (pre-loaded) cylinder. It was a common practice with Walker Colts (big Dragoons) by Civil War Calvalry. Bill Hickock also liked the .36 because it shot a flatter trajectory than the .44 caliber selections of the day.

[Sistema1927]

I was just recently about 18" away from one of Bill Hickok's Navy Colts. It was on display along with other Old West articles at the New Mexico Museum of Art in Albuquerque.

Neat pistol.

[Leanwolf]

TRACKER - "Legend says he [Hickock] wasn't especially fast, but exceedingly cool & collected taking time to carefully aim & squeeze the trigger."

Odds are, it wouldn't have mattered much whether or not he carried cartridge or cap-'n-ball Colts, as to his longevity.

By the time of Hickock's assassination in 1876, he was already going blind from having contracted a very severe case of gonorrhea, years before.

Kinda hard to aim and shoot straight when you're blind.

L.W.

[Joe Demko]

He may well have had gonorrhea, but unless it was directly inoculated into his eyes it's extremely unlikely he was blinded by it. Blindness due to gonorrhea is almost exclusively seen in neo-natal gonorrhea infections.

[tkendrick]

Hickok's deliberate shooting style probably stemmed from the incident in Abilene Kansas where he drew and fired on an unidentified target during a brawl in the street. Turned out he killed his own deputy.

Some accounts say he was never quite so fast on the draw or quick-tempered thereafter.

[K.A.T.]

Tell us Sistema 1927,was it a conversion or cap and ball?Where was the other one?If I had Gonorrhea,I'd be pretty pi#*ed off,and probally wouldn't mind a good gun fight.:fire:

[cdrt]

Wild Bill used cap and ball, not a cartridge conversion. I've seen his revolvers as well and if you watched Wild West Tech on the History Channel, you would have seen a segment on his dexterity with them.

[J.T. Gerrity]

Wild Bill (real name James) Hickok did stick with his .36 calibre C&B pistols long after cartridge conversions were available, but it is roumored that he did have a couple of Colt's Armys and a cartridge hide out gun (supposedly on his person when he was shot in Deadwood). By 1876 he had been using those Colt's navys for over twenty years, he was damned good with them, and old habits are hard to change (whenever I hear people dissing C&B pistols as "inadequate" and "unreliable" I always think of good 'ol Wild Bill and have to smile; it's not necessarily the pistol, but more often the man behind the trigger that makes the difference).

Glaucoma (some say Ghonneria) was affecting his eyes in the latter years. He quit the Wild West show he was performing with Buffalo Bill and Texas Jack Omohundro because the lights hurt his eyes (and the play was just stupid). By the time he reached Deadwood he could hardly see, and it's been said that he rarely touched his pistols during these latter years. Too bad the crooks running Deadwood didn't know this before they paid Jack Mc Call to assassinate him...

[Jim K]

I have always considered the .36 Navy fully the equivalent of the .38 Special for power. Anyone doubting the effectiveness of cap & ball guns need not worry about James Butler Hickok (only one "C"); just peruse the Civil War casualty lists.

BTW, the name came from his having what are called "pursed" lips. Although he grew a mustache to cover them up, they reminded people of a duck's bill, and they called him "Duck bill" Hickok (maybe not to his face, though). After a couple of incidents in which he "lost his cool", the nickname got changed to "Wild Bill" and that stuck for the rest of his life.

Jim

[Bad Flynch]

>He may well have had gonorrhea, but unless it was directly inoculated into his eyes it's extremely unlikely he was blinded by it. Blindness due to gonorrhea is almost exclusively seen in neo-natal gonorrhea infections.<

I must agree with this one, all the way around and I will offer an alternative explanation. In that time period Syphilis was known as "The Calamity" and Calamity Jane, with whom Wild Bill cohabited, might have gotten the nickname from that. Tertiary neurosyphilis is known to cause optic nerve damage, pupil abnormalities, and chronic headaches and in that unsophisticated day and age, that might account for the diagnosis of Glaucoma that is sometimes offered.

[J.T. Gerrity]

BTW, the name came from his having what are called "pursed" lips... they called him "Duck bill" Hickok... the nickname got changed to "Wild Bill"

I Have to disagree with you on this, Jim. "Wild Bill" was a pretty common moniker used during the 19th century to indicate anyone with a somewhat reckless and fearless personality ( She: "But, those Indians had guns!" He: "Yes, but that didn't stop ol' "Wild Bill" here... He came out swingin'"). James Hickok gained his "Wild Bill" status from the wicked abandon he used in dispatching desperados who attempted to rob the stage he drove in the mid '50s. There were actually quite a few "Wild Bills" scattered about the Old West.

[rusty bubbles]

Wow! Everything I ever wanted to know-and more- about the Legend, and his guns -
Most interesting. thanks guys

(I'm gonna like it here!)

[Sistema1927]

To answer K.A.T.'s questions: C&B, and I don't know where the other one was. It was neat to see:

1) Wild Bill's 1851
2) The 10 ga. that Billy the Kid used during his escape from the Lincoln County Jail
3) Pat Garrett's Colt SAA .44-40(used to kill Billy)
4) Pat Garrett's chopped down 1892, also in .44-40

All in the same exhibit.

[Loyalist Dave]

I have a cheap, CVA .36 revolver, brass framed, though well made. It shoots ragged groups at 25 feet, and is not close to the quality of a Colt 1851 Navy of Wild Bill's time, and I suspect his were highly accurate. I think Wild Bill's choice on his standard sidearm demonstrates the old maxim that the size of the bullet is only important after you hit your target. I believe that Wild Bill's record shows that most of his opponents were incapacitated if not dead in a matter of seconds, so the lack of medical knowledge for gunshot wounds and infections wasn't a factor.

LD

[rifle]

I've read that Will Bill was carrying two 1851 Colt Navy Richards conversions when he was back shot.
In Elmer Kieths book "Six Guns" it is related that old timers he talked to that actually used the Colt Navy in combate in the Civil war related facts. They both said that the "Ball" took the fight out of the enemy better than the "conical". Therefore I conclude the 36cal. was powerful enough to take the fight out of enemy Cavalry. I conclude I don't want to be shot with a 36cal. Navy Colt. Both the old timers from the Civil War that Elmer Kieth related to in his book, I believe, stated that a "chamber full of FFg powder" and the ball is what they used. The FFg would be crushed into some smaller grains and that would up the velosity. 800 fps I's guess. Maybe 900 fps. Anywhoooo.... I've read published data about kills using lead balls and the balls make a vicious wound compared to conical that Elmer Kieth himself stated just slipped thru. Elmer Kieth related that there is no better killer of animals or men than the lead round ball. I can second that from hunting muzzleloader with balls and conicals. The balls drop them deer faster. I can't compare a lead ball to a 30-06 but if the ball is big enough like the ones they used to kill elephants with who knows....maybe a big lead ball would kill something faster than something like a 30-06?????? I figure though that comparing the 36cal. percussion revolver round to .380 or even 38 special may be like comparing apples and oranges since the ball makes a different type of wound channel compared to conical lead bullets.

[Jim K]

Hi, J.T.,

I am not sure "Wild Bill" was that common BEFORE Mr. Hickok became famous, at least for people not named William. As to the pursed lips, one only need look carefully at his pictures to see why he got the "duck bill" nickname long before he was "wild."

One thing for sure, he didn't look much like Howard Keel and "Calam" sure didn't look a bit like Doris Day.

Jim

[Ghost Tracker]

Yeah, but Duck Bill Hickock just didn't quite strike enough terror in the hearts of Old West Gunslingers. And you could NEVER make a Dime Novel Legend out of a gunhand named "Soiled Shorts Shorty" or "Wet Leg Jack". They're just poor guys that get killed early in the story.

[J.T. Gerrity]

Actually, the "Wild Bill" moniker was prevalent before Hickok became famous, so take it as you will. I've heard he was given the name while he was a stage driver, while he was fighting Kansas "Border Ruffians", and while he was acting as a scout for the Union during the Civil War. Actually, this is how legends are born; too many stories and not enough solid evidence, and there are plenty of stories regarding the "Prince of Pistoleers". I recommend "They Called Him Wild Bill" by Joseph G. Rosa as an excellent place to start seperating fact from fiction. Rosa is a Hickok fanatic, and much of his research was derived from the Hickok family, who opened up their archives to him.

My favorite Wild Bill story actually happened after his death. Seems that Deadwood was opening up a new cemetery (Mount Moriah) several years after W.B.s death, and his Pard, Charlie Utter, bought a plot to move him to. When they dug him up, however, the coffin mysteriously weighed a "ton", and it took fifteen men to raise it from the grave. Charlie said that W.B. had weighed 180 pounds at his funeral, but somehow mineralized ground water had seeped into the coffin, and had petrified W.B. so that he weighed somewhere closer to 490 pounds. They opened the coffin, and W.B. looked just as he did on the day of the funeral, with no sign of decay. Charlie reported that the skin was hard as a rock and sounded like wood when tapped; that his moustache had hardened, but his hair was just as shiny and pliable as ever (one person in the crowd even cut off a lock of hair as a souvenir). I've always wondered what he would look like if he was exhumed today. Still the same?

[Marlin 45 carbine]

W.B. was tuff enuff by any standards and a great pistol shot also. what more do you need for a legend? Colorado Charlie was a shootist hisself, used shotguns and long barreled rifles. if Jack McCall had not been paid to assasinate Bill what the legend be?

[Mat, not doormat]

Most Cap & Ball revolvers can be quickly reloaded with an extra (pre-loaded) cylinder. It was a common practice with Walker Colts (big Dragoons) by Civil War Calvalry. Bill Hickock also liked the .36 because it shot a flatter trajectory than the .44 caliber selections of the day.

Yeah, you can swap cylinders fairly easily in a remington pattern C&B, but not so much in a colt. To remove a colt cylinder, one has to either drive or pull the wedge, then remove the barrel assembly, THEN remove the cylinder, replace, and reassemble. Not something I care to attempt on horseback, or in the middle of a firefight.

Also, the Walker far outstripped the Navy model as far as FPS, trajectory, etc, but wasn't exactly widely available. But, the navy was a heck of a lot easier to tote around than the big walker.

~~~Mat

[barman]

Yeah, you can swap cylinders fairly easily in a remington pattern C&B, but not so much in a colt. To remove a colt cylinder, one has to either drive or pull the wedge, then remove the barrel assembly, THEN remove the cylinder, replace, and reassemble. Not something I care to attempt on horseback, or in the middle of a firefight.



Yeah, I'm also kind of dubious wether Colt C&Bs were reloaded during gunfights or not. To remove the wedge you need to hammer it out (except when the gun is old and the wedge is worn).

Remingtons were so much easier.

That being said, I'm rather a Colt kind of guy.

[Jamie C.]

I'm also kind of dubious wether Colt C&Bs were reloaded during gunfights or not.

Well, since Wild Bill carried 2 guns, and apparently wasn't the kind to waste many shots, I doubt reloading was much of an issue for him, most of the time.
Unless he was fighting a bunch of wild indians, I can't imagine much of a need for more than 10-12 rounds before his adversaries were either dead or had run off to find healthier pass-times.

I certainly couldn't see trying to reload while marching across an open field, while under fire, during the Civil War though... although I suppose there were some that either did or at least tried to.



J.C.

[mec]

Maybe he had his hands somewhere where the gonorrhea got on them and then he rubbed his eyes. Or maybe he just stayed out in the sun too long and developed catarrachs. Or maybe he had the major stds that had been invented by that time. Probably did unless he was a fan of french letters.

[barman]

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