[rantingredneck]

I was at the range yesterday doing some shooting. Also met up with a fellow THR'er, edhaus. Nice guy to hang out with.

I have been an advocate of 00 buck as the ideal HD round out of a shotgun. I know, I know, it's a debate that's been done to death......:rolleyes:

I have seen others post about using #4 buck since it is theoretically less likely to penetrate as much drywall and injure innocents on the other side of walls. Well, being open to new ideas and trying the suggestions of others, I purchased some awhile back, but had not made it to the range yet for a pattern test. Needless to say since it wasn't patterned it was not yet loaded in my shotgun.

My shotgun of choice for HD is a Remington 870 Express with a 20" IC Rifle sighted slug barrel. It does double duty as a hunting weapon as well. In the HD configuration I keep a Tacstar extension with 5 00 buck followed by 2 Brenneke slugs with 2 + 2 in a four shot sidesaddle. I have a Remington picatinny barrel clamp with a Surefire mounted.

My target was a printed 8.5x11" grid target from mytargets.com. It was set up at approx 15-17yds. (I didn't measure exactly). This is farther than I would ever be called upon to shoot inside my house.

I first fired a Remington Reduced Recoil 00 buck load (my HD standard). The 8 pellet pattern pattern was about a 4 inch spread at that range and was point of aim at the center of the target. Needless to say any intruder shot with it would be very likely to stop being a threat and smartly.

I then fired a Remington 2 3/4" #4 buck load at a separate but identical target. Of the 27 pellets I could only account for 20 of them. Of those 20 only about 16 were actually in the paper. I found four more in the wood scattered around the paper. The other 7 were MIA, but I suspect they went high. None of the pellets were clustered around the point of aim so if my point of aim was COM on an intruder he'd be injured but the injury wouldn't likely be immediately incapacitating.

I'm sorry I don't have pictures of these targets. I used the same ones for some slug practice afterward and they're pretty shot up at this point. I plan to get back to the range maybe this Saturday and will replicate the test and post pictures here.

I post this thread not to reignite the debate over which is a better shotgun round for HD, we all have our opinions and aren't likely to change them. What I do highly recommend, though is that if you choose to rely on a shotgun round of any shot size, make sure you pattern it at ranges you would expect to potentially use it. Also make sure you practice with it.

Let me also add that I'm well aware that other #4 loads may pattern better out of my gun. I plan to try more and different loads as I come across them. At this point, though the Managed Recoil 00 Buck from Remington and the Brenneke KO slug are my choices. YMMV

[JimmyN]

Since you say it is a slug barrel, that indicates to me that it is rifled. If it is a rifled barrel that explains the hole in the center of the pattern, typical when shooting shot out of a rifled barrel.

[rantingredneck]

Negative on the rifling.

20" IC Rifle sighted slug barrel

IC = Improved Cylinder.

[Ghost Tracker]

Really surprised that the IC didn't provide a better pattern of the #4 buck load. By the time it reached 45' the pellets must have bounced together (and off one another) enough to spread into chaos. Good thing you experimented. Stick with 00 Buck.

[rantingredneck]

I was shocked as well. I only fired one round and am basing my opinion solely on that data set of 1. I've got 14 more rounds (I bought three boxes initially) to do some testing with. I may be back at the range this Saturday afternoon and if so I'll try to set up a more stringent test at several different distances say 7/15/25 and post the targets for comparison.

I've been a hunter all my life and have always used 00 buck for deer hunting with shotguns here in NC. I've seen what it does to meat and bone at 25 yds. I've never shot any #4's until yesterday. It may pattern better out of a modified or full choked shotgun but out of an IC it was pretty pathetic.

[Fred Fuller]

Shotgun patterning often seems to have more to do with magic than science. Every shotgun barrel is apt to be a law unto itself- the only way to know what it will do at any given range with any given load is to pattern it and see.

It is not possible to overemphasize the importance of patterning ANY defensive shotgun to make sure you the operator knows full well what the gun and load will do at any reasonable range. Kudos to rr for his range work, we should all do likewise rather than just assuming we know what our pet load and favorite scattergun will do.

lpl/nc

[the naked prophet]

My shotgun (12g Mossberg 500, 18.5" cylinder bore) does best with Remington Express 16 pellet #1 buck. I bought 7 different kinds of 00 buck, and none of them patterned well, except the Federal standard 9 pellet load - which I keep as a backup load. The #4 buck 2 3/4 inch magnum load from Remington also patterned well, but I don't really want to shoot it again.

Try a bunch of different brands. If you think the #4 would work for you (assuming it patterned well), then try a different brand. Personally, I don't think it gets enough penetration, so I use #1 buck.

[rantingredneck]

I'd love to try some #1's but they're hard to find in the stores I frequent. I could order some, but shipping prices are a PITA if you're ordering small quantities. I guess I could piggyback it on some other ammo I order (.32NAA anyone?) I'll stick with the Remington 00 until I find something better, but I'm always open to experimenting. Gives me an excuse to go to the range :D

[ArchAngelCD]

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/ArchAngelCD/worthlessthread.gif

:D :p :neener: :D

[JohnBT]

"surprised that the IC didn't provide a better pattern of the #4 buck"

I'm not, IC isn't much choke constriction at all. I'd try Mod or even Full with anything as small or smaller than #4 buck.

John

[rantingredneck]

@ArchAngel: yeah yeah I know. I'll pull those shot to pieces targets out of my range bag (I think I kept them) and post pics later. I also plan to repeat the test later this week if I can get back to the range.

[fireflyfather]

You can also ask your local shop to order it for you next time they order a batch of ammo. That way they save on shipping, you pay the same or lesser price, and the local shop makes a profit. Everyone wins.

Just be prepared to wait AWHILE for the #1 buckshot. It took my shop a LONG time to get it in. I think mine was winchester.

[ED21]

OK, I'll try to put a couple of pics here. These are two pics of the same target fired on from the 25 yd line. Four rounds as fast as I could pump the 870 express (20 in barl and IC). Two rounds of 4 buck and two rounds of 00 buck. Looks like it would put a "Whoa" on the BG's. :) (Pics taken as after thought with my camera phone that I seldom use:confused: )

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pce927848e95da8a1b6b44ee5eb73939e/e7d41fc1.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pe370b0ec9d931343f63ad9f8b857f64a/e7d41fc0.jpg

[Shell Shucker]

You've gleaned valuable knowledge based on ONE round? That's like saying "I shot at ONE trap target with an AA shell and missed, therefore Winchester AA trap loads are no good!". I have yet to form an opinion on what buck shot loads are the best; when I do my opinion will be based on something more concrete than a one round "test".

[Jeff F]

I get my best pattern with no 4 buck in my 20 in barrel with an imp mod choke tube. 00 buck likes a modified tube the best. A full choke tube and no 4 buck starts opening up a little more at 40 yards, go figure.

[rantingredneck]

You've gleaned valuable knowledge based on ONE round? That's like saying "I shot at ONE trap target with an AA shell and missed, therefore Winchester AA trap loads are no good!". I have yet to form an opinion on what buck shot loads are the best; when I do my opinion will be based on something more concrete than a one round "test".

Didn't I indicate as such? Didn't I also indicate that I plan a more extensive test? If one round blows a pattern that badly, no i won't rely on it for HD. Would you rely on such a round from your HD shotgun when you have a proven load on hand? I won't.

I've long relied on Remington Managed Recoil 00 buck because I've pattern tested and practiced with it REPEATEDLY.

[Shell Shucker]

"Patterned some #4 buck out of my 870, wasn't impressed." When you said "some" (SOME=MORE than ONE) I was thinking PLURAL as in more than ONE! When I hastily read your first post I was under the assumption that you had "done your homework" and was posting test data based on a reasonable amount of testing. My mistake. I should read more carefully.

Why would you even post an opinion based on ONE shell?

[rantingredneck]

Because it's an honest opinion. I happened to have it with me at the range while practicing with a 00 load that I know is proven. I patterned one round to see how it would do, I wasn't impressed. Its a preliminary result, yes. I indicated in a subsequent post that I plan to do more testing of the load. The fact that the pattern is off of an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper by the time it reaches 15 to 17 yds does not impress me much though.

[Dave McCracken]

Cool it, guys. RR has already committed to more extensive testing.

Like Lee said, each barrel is a alw unto itself. We could take two identical shotguns with consecutive serial numbers and pattern them with a load. We could repeat it until we removed all doubt of the results and find that one barrel does much better than the other.

Old Estate RR 00 patterns best from my two HD tools, but each has a favorite second best load. And Frankenstein likes the Estate with it's bunty turkey barrel but does very good work with Fed Classic 00.

Again, do not bet your life on a load and choke until you're convinced by real data that it's the best choice in YOUR shotgun.....

[El Tejon]

Like Dave said each weapon is different, like .22s.

I have two consecutively numbered 870s that I sent to Scattergun Technologies back when dinosaurs stalked the earf. One gun loves Remington #00 and throws scary tight patterns with it, the other gun loves #4. Go figure.

Go shoot your gun and find out what it likes.

[The_Antibubba]

I'm glad you're going to do more testing, but what stood out for me was
My target was a printed 8.5x11" grid target from mytargets.com. It was set up at approx 15-17yds. (I didn't measure exactly). This is farther than I would ever be called upon to shoot inside my house.


Test using distances you will most likely shoot at.

[rantingredneck]

Yeah I get that, but I also want it to perform beyond what is the most likely distance. Realistically 7-10 yds is probably the max, but if my 00 load performs well to 25 yds I want to see how the #4 load stacks up. If it won't stay on the paper at 15 yds or so that's a bit troubling if I ever was forced to rely on it.

Comparing this logic to handgun practice.......

Statistically I'm never likely to have to use my handgun period. Further, if I'm called upon to use it, statistically I'm never likely to have to shoot more than 7 yds to defend myself, but I practice at 15 and 25 yds every range trip anyway. Just because.

I'll do some pattern testing at 7/15/25 my next range trip (Saturday afternoon if the stars align properly) and post the results.

[Shell Shucker]

I could be wrong........... I've always thought that ONE of the advantages to using a shotgun was the fact that it throws a PATTERN vs a single projectile. The shot spread is designed to increase the probability of a hit. A shot spread that more than covers a 8 1/2 x 11" sheet of paper at 15 yards is still very tight at normal house hold distances (much less). I think I'd rather "wing" an intruder with a 10" pattern than miss completely with a 2" pattern. Why are all of the "combat" shotguns equipped with cylinder or IC chokes vs modified or full if shot spread has no merit? In my mind shooting deer at 25 yards with buckshot requires a different pattern than shooting a man "across the bedroom". No offence intended.

[rantingredneck]

Most definitely that is an advantage. The problem I had with the way this particular pattern looked at that range was it was almost completely "blown". It looked like a ring of shot around the edges of the paper. Someone said something earlier about my barrel being rifled. It's not, but that is what the pattern almost looked like. Like it had spun out to the fringes of the target.

Had that been COM on an intruder there would have been #4 shot in his shoulders, abdomen and outer ribcage areas but the heart and big blood vessels around it would have been largely undamaged. It may have been a stopping shot, but it may not have.

My thinking (and this is strictly opinion) is that I want multiple pellets in a tight cluster of 3-4 inches max if I can get it. That type of pattern is as close to a guaranteed one shot stop as you are likely to get from any weapon, IMO.

Thinking through various intruder scenarios given the layout of my house, if I'm shooting at a BG and he's shooting back at me, then he's also shooting at what's behind me (wife and kids). I don't want him to keep shooting. I want him down and out and I want that to happen right now. I just didn't see in that #4 pattern where that would be as likely to happen. Combine that with the smaller pellet diameter and lower weight and likely shallower penetration than 00 and it just wasn't something I'm ready to rely on.

That all being said I do plan to test it further still.

[rantingredneck]

Also on the reasoning behind using more open chokes in combat shotguns, they also provide the versatility of switching to slugs. It's not so much about throwing bigger patterns I think. You can shoot rifled slugs out of tighter chokes, but the performance typically suffers.

[Dave McCracken]

Some folks that ought to know tell me that optimum spread is 5" at target.

Personally, I'd want a spread of less than 15" at a given distance. That gives me close to 25 yerds with my HD tools anda slug option after that.

[GunTech]

If you want tighter patterns with buckshot, you can port you barrel at the muzzle. Swearengen notes Army tests in "worlds fighting shotguns" that dtermined that ports or lingitudinal slots in the barrel near the muzzle reduce patern size. They postulated that gases exiting the muzzle were upsetting the shot cup of column, and porting the barrel bled of the gas before the shot left the gun.

Since #4 is typically recommended as a indoor load, and rooms are rarely more than 20-30 feet long, sound like an open pattern is what you want.

[Fred Fuller]

IMHO, shotguns excel as close-range defensive weapons because of two main factors: bore diameter and payload weight. Buckshot works like a prefragmented defensive round- on impact the pellets are free to follow individual paths, resulting in increased tissue damage. This has a long history of proven results in stopping soft skinned, lightly built creatures of all species up to about 300 pounds at close range.

Personally I don't care if a load of buckshot is bore diameter or larger when it impacts, I'm point-shooting with a shotgun anyway. By that I mean I am shooting at a specific point on the target, not at the target as a whole. I don't want an open pattern because open patterns increase the likelihood of missing with some of the pellets. Pellets that miss not only fail to damage the intended target but might cause collateral damage downrange, NOT what I want to have happen.

That's why I use a sheet of typing paper for a patterning target, and insist that my gun/load maintain a pattern that will stay inside those bounds at 25 yards. Turn sideways to a mirror and hold a sheet of paper up under your arm on that side, 8" end up. Note what portion of your anatomy that paper covers. And also note, that is about the smallest area of a fully exposed human target you are apt to get presented with, is when a person 'blades' their body toward you. How long does it take a person to go from standing in a full frontal presentation to rotating their body 90 degrees? If your target does that, as in the process of presenting a weapon at you, you will be presented with a target that suddenly shrinks to about 8" wide.

So I pattern on a target 8" X 11.5" at 25 yards. Do I have a room 75 feet long? No, but that makes no difference to me. The longest range I am apt to use buckshot is about 25 yards- further out than that, I'm going to slugs. But I want buckshot for close-range use, which for me is out to 25 yards or so.

Am I telling you that's what you have to do? Nope, not at all. I am only presenting the reasoning behind my own decisions. My reasons are based on my own training and experience.

You are 100% free to make up your own mind what works for you, and today's technology is such that you can pretty much attain whatever level of performance you desire for your particular gun and range. Determine what you want your gun and load to do, and seek to achieve that result. Get the best training you can manage, so that you understand more fully the defensive use of your shotgun- which is best described as 'a thinking person's weapon.'

And Stay Safe,

lpl/nc

[sacp81170a]

I'd love to try some #1's but they're hard to find in the stores I frequent.

Actually, try almost non-existent. I tried looking for the Federal #1 buffered load and can't find anything in #1 in a 12 ga. except for a Winchester load. Everything else seems to be in 16 ga. I've given up finding any more and I'm hoarding what #1's I have left. Haven't been to the range to do a test lately, but I'll sacrifice one box and let you know the results.

[rantingredneck]

Well I went to the range today with one of my TFL buddies, bennnn.

I set up patterning sheets (backside of a scorekeeper rifle target) at 7/15/25 and shot them with the two loads in question from my OP: Remington Managed Recoil 00 Buck (8 pellets) and Remington 2 3/4" #4 Buck (27 pellets). These target sheets are larger than Lee's standard 8.5x11 sheet by a considerable bit. More like 14x21. Keep that in mind as you look at the pics.

I have to say my initial impression of the #4 load from my 870 was reinforced mightily today. First we'll look at my standard HD load (the managed recoil 00). I've patterned this load repeatedly and practice with it regularly. I would most certainly trust my life to it.

7 yds:

http://www.rantingredneck.com/evolution/media/Buckshot%20Showdown/Rem%20RR%2000%207%20yds.JPG
You can see to the right where the wad hit. Must have been tumbling and hit sideways. All 8 pellets accounted for COM

15 yds:
http://www.rantingredneck.com/evolution/media/Buckshot%20Showdown/Rem%20RR%2000%2015%20yds.JPG
No wad print in this target, but again all 8 pellets accounted for and COM.

25 yds:
http://www.rantingredneck.com/evolution/media/Buckshot%20Showdown/Rem%20RR%2000%2025%20yds..JPG
This one I have to apologize for as I pulled it (or rather pushed it since I'm a righty) off to the left a bit. I probably should have re-shot this one, but I've shot enough of this at 25 yds to be personally satisfied and this target is still demonstrative of the overall pattern. 7 of 8 pellets accounted for on the target paper, hole from 8th pellet found in wood 1.5 inches to left of edge of paper.

That load I would definitely trust my life to. This next one, not so much......

7 yds:

http://www.rantingredneck.com/evolution/media/Buckshot%20Showdown/Rem%20%234%20buck%207%20yds..JPG
I have to say, if I wanted to really limit the useful range of my main HD weapon to 7 yds I wouldn't mind that pattern. It definitely would ruin an intruder's day.

15 yds:
http://www.rantingredneck.com/evolution/media/Buckshot%20Showdown/Rem%20%234%20buck%2015%20yds.JPG
This is where the load really starts to not look so good. Of the 27 pellets only 25 were on the paper (and it's a pretty big paper), where did the other two go?

25 yds:
http://www.rantingredneck.com/evolution/media/Buckshot%20Showdown/Rem%20%234%20buck%2025%20yds.JPG
MMMkay.......27 pellets and only 8 accounted for. Enough said for me. No dice on this load for HD from my 870.

Wonder how it shoots in my 835??????:uhoh:

[rantingredneck]

And my belated response to ArchangelCD's post about pics:

My original targets from Tuesday.

15 yds, 8.5x11 target, Managed Recoil 00 buck (my standard HD load) 4 rounds, 32 pellets total all accounted for.

http://www.rantingredneck.com/evolution/media/Buckshot%20Showdown/4%20rounds%20Rem%20RR%2000%20Buck.JPG

15 yds, 8.5x11 target, Remington #4 buck 16 pellets of 27 accounted for.

http://www.rantingredneck.com/evolution/media/Buckshot%20Showdown/%234%20buck%20and%20Slugs.JPG

I used the same target for slug practice afterward, hence the really big holes.

I thought I would color code a version of it using MS Paint and post it to give you an idea of which rounds fell where:

http://www.rantingredneck.com/evolution/media/Buckshot%20Showdown/%234%20buck%20and%20Slugs%20(color%20coded).JPG

Red = #4 buckshot
Black = Brenneke KO's
Green = Remington Sluggers
Yellow = Wads from Remington Sluggers

[ArchAngelCD]

Thank you for the targets, it makes things much clearer. Based on your tests I would say I might have to reconsider loading my shotgun with 00 Buck instead of #4 Buck for HD. Thank you... I guess I should have done a similar test before I went with #4 Buck.

[rantingredneck]

Make sure you pattern some loads from your shotgun. It may like #4 a lot better than mine does.

But you're welcome anyway. :)

[suemarkp]

Actually, try almost non-existent. I tried looking for the Federal #1 buffered load and can't find anything in #1 in a 12 ga. except for a Winchester load. Everything else seems to be in 16 ga. I've given up finding any more and I'm hoarding what #1's I have left.

Do you have any aversions to buying it online (two Winchesters which are buffered, a Remington, a Federal, Win in 2 3/4" and 3", Federal in 3.5"):
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/65037-8176-2454.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/65081-7783-2470.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/66067-7253-2470.html
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=285371&t=11082005
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=177824&t=11082005
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=293644&t=11082005
http://www.grafs.com/fc/product/145014

[bpisler]

If you are looking for tight groups from a
cylinder bore shotty give the fed premium
00 with the flitecontrol wad.I tried a box
today was was relly impressed by it.

At 10 yards from my mossberg 500A the
patterns were no larger than a silver
dollar,this is with a cylinder bore.

At 15 yards the patterns had opened up to
only 3 inches as measured with a ruler.
I'll have to try a few more boxes before i
switch the rem managed recoil 00 for
the Federal load.

I also fired a box of the rem managed recoil
00 at 10 and 15 yards and the results were
the same as always.7-8 inches at 10 yards
and 12 inches at 15 yards,all patterns were
well centered with no gaps.

I should note that the felt recoil was about
the same between these 2 loads.The Fed load
has 9 pellets of 00 compared to 8 for the rem
but the Rem has a MV of 1200 fps.

The Fed has a MV of 1145 but it does carry 1
more pellet,the MV's are the factory numbers
printed on each box