quick!! help me with some arguments!!!


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supraneurotoxin
September 5, 2007, 07:11 PM
I'm having a discussion with a semi-anti guy at work as we speak, and i need some solid pro-gun arguments.
things that have been said:
he's agreed to come shooting with me, because "it might be fun"
he says he's not against guns or for them, but he thinks they should be restricted somewhat.
he doesn't take the second amendment as giving him the right to shoot someone climbing through his window at night. to this, I said that it doesn't give him the right, unless that person meant to do him or someone else harm, than I asked him if he would shoot someone who was climbing through his bedroom window with a gun, and he said "well, I don't think he should have a gun."
he said he has no problem with "people like me" owning guns, because he knows I am responsible and have had proper training(see my sig line), but he doesn't want the "gangbangers to have them"
he is very inteligent and open minded, as is perfectly willing to be proved wrong(he said, "please, prove me wrong, I enjoy a good debate.") this is entirely a freindly discussion.

I need some facts, statistics, pro RKBA quotes, etc.

lets swing this one off the fence onto our side of the pasture!

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JLStorm
September 5, 2007, 07:13 PM
take him shooting first, let him enjoy himself without you shoving pro gun facts down his throat. If he likes it, lead by example and chances are he will start asking you questions. Once he is the one initiating the conversations and questions then take the time to educate him..gently.

MattB000
September 5, 2007, 07:18 PM
+1 on that

Take him shooting. Don't over-close :)

Nolo
September 5, 2007, 07:21 PM
Arguments:

-In Ottoman Turkey, gun control was enacted from 1866-1917.
1.25 million Armenian minorities were massacred between 1915 and 1917.
-In the Soviet Union, gun control was enacted from 1918-1991.
20 million people of various backgrounds were killed between 1929 and 1945
-In Nazi Germany and occupied Europe, gun control was enacted from 1928-1945.
20 million people of various backgrounds, significantly Jews, were exterminated between 1933 and 1945.
-In Nationalist China, gun control was enacted from 1914-1949.
10 million people, largely political opponents, were murdered between 1927 and 1949.
-In Communist China, gun control was enacted from 1949-Present Day.
Approximately 27 million "Enemies of the State" were executed between 1949 and 1976 and even beyond.
-In Guatemala, gun control was enacted from 1932-Present Day.
Approximately 150,000 Mayan Indian minorities were eliminated between 1960 and 1981.
-In Uganda, gun control was enacted from 1955-Present Day.
300,000 Christians and political enemies were killed between 1971 and 1979.
-In Cambodia, gun control was enacted from 1938-Present Day.
2 million "Educated Persons" were annihilated between 1975 and 1979.
-In Rwanda, gun control was enacted from 1979-Present Day.
800,000 Tutsis were massacred in 1994.


Humans need certain things to survive. They need to eat, to sleep, to have shelter, to defecate, to remain healthy, to fend off predators, and to reproduce.
Refrigerators help us to eat, allowing us to save excess food, thus saving time not having to hunt.
Beds help us sleep, because they are more comfortable than hard soft ground, which allows them to sleep less, thus getting more work done.
Premade housing helps us have shelter, because it is sturdy enough to be there in the long term, making shelter no real issue. Plus it's darned comfortable to have central heating.
Toilets help us to defecate without waste, allowing us to both remain healthy and to save time by not having to clean up poop.
Medicine helps us to remain healthy. Vaccines help us to avoid being sick, thus saving us the bedridden time.
Gun help us to be able to fend off predators without having to take a martial arts class and devote the time to true mastery (which takes far more time than a simple two hour class twice a week) as well as the workouts that are needed to keep in shape to effectively use said art.
Humans are amazing creatures. Why? We're all different. All lions are hunters. All horses are good runners. All spiders are excellent trap-setters. All humans are... doctors, lawyers, businessmen/women, teachers, designers, artists, the list goes on ad infinum. We need almost all the time we have to accomplish all those basic needs. Almost all. In order to fulfill our passion, we need more time. All of these inventions give us more time. And when humans have more time, they can devote more of it to what their good at, thus saving other people time and enjoying themselves in the process.
Not everyone has the time to become an expert in self-defense. Guns save you that time, which allows you to get more palatable work done.

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms;…" Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789 quoting Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State by the Honorable Samuel Adams, Esquire.

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed;..." Thomas Jefferson letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. 1824. ME 16:45.

"The congress of the United States possesses no power to regulate, or interfere with the domestic concerns, or police of any state: it belongs not to them to establish any rules respecting the rights of property; nor will the constitution permit any prohibition of arms to the people;…" Saint George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries (1803), Volume 1, Appendix, Note D [Section 13: Restraints on Powers of Congress con't]. Whole Book.

"A free people ought not only to be armed…" George Washington, speech of January 8, 1790 in the Boston Independent Chronicle, January 14, 1790. Complete text of the First Annual Message to Congress.

"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them …" George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380 (June 14, 1788).

"…to preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them …" Richard Henry Lee writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, January 25, 1788.

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined." Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot, Debates at 45 (Virginia Convention, June 5, 1788).

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787.

"The great object is that every man be armed ... Everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot, Debates at 386

"...one loves to possess arms, tho[ugh] they hope never to have occasion for them." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to George Washington, June 19, 1796. ME 9:341 Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Memorial Edition (Lipscomb and Bergh, editors) 20 Vols., Washington, D.C., 1903-04.


There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens.


Fewer people of all age groups are killed by accident by firearms on average in America than by automobiles (43,000 Average Yearly Total), falls (16,000 AYT), poisoning by solids or liquids (11,700 AYT), pedestrian fatalities (5,300 AYT, also included in automobile accidents), drowning (3,900 AYT), fires and burns (3,600 AYT), and suffocation by ingested object (3,400 AYT), with only 600 killed per year.


Of 20 million middle-school and high-school students, fewer than a dozen have killed at school this year. Of 20,000 secondary schools nationwide, only about 10 have reported a murder on campus... The school shootings by students over the last eight months (May, 1998) killed 11 youths and six adults. That is fewer kids than are murdered by parents , and fewer adults than are killed by partners, in just two days of household violence in the United States.


Recent studies estimate that gunplay at school kills 20 to 30 youths a year, though there is no evidence the toll is higher today than in the past. By contrast studies...show that 2,000-3,000 children and youths are murdered each year by parents or caretakers, a toll that clearly is rising. Annual surveys... report that weapons-related violence in schools is no higher today than in the 1970s. But the rate of children being murdered by their parents doubled during that time.


In 1992, 55 killings occurred in America's schools. In 1997 it was down to 25. By contrast, 88 people were killed by lightning in 1997. Schiraldi [Director of the Center for Justice Policy Institute] says he hates to see rural schools start spending money on metal detectors and security guards instead of books.


The United States ranks thirteenth in the industrialized world in total violent death rate.


The United States ranks eight in the industrialized world in total homicide rate.





Since 1934, there have only been 2 cases of homicide with a legal fully-automatic weapon.

· Of 2,200 guns recovered by Minneapolis police (1987-1989), not one was fully automatic.
· A total of 420 weapons, including 375 guns, were seized during drug warrant executions and arrests by the Metropolitan Area Narcotics Squad (Will and Grundie counties in the Chicago metropolitan area, 1980-1989). None of the guns was a machine gun.
· 16 of 2,359 (0.7%) of the guns seized in the Detroit area (1991-1992) in connection with "the investigation of narcotics trafficking operations" were machine guns.

- "Armor piercing" ammunition is only legally available to law enforcement agencies and to the armed forces.
- Rather than opposing the ban on "armor piercing" ammunition, the NRA was in fact instrumental in crafting the law that Congress ultimately passed.
- When properly wearing the appropriate body armor, not one law enforcement officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their vest. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) certifies three levels of body armor. The most commonly worn, Level IIA, offers realistic protection against all .22, .25, .32, .380, and .38, caliber handgun ammunition, against most 9mm, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and .44 Magnum handgun ammunition and against 000 buck shotgun pellets. Level II and Level IIIA armor protects from even greater threats including 12 gauge shotgun slugs and the "hottest" .44 Magnum rounds.
"Cop-killer" bullets are a myth born from media hype and nurtured by unrealistic Hollywood portrayals and the deliberately misleading claims of the anti-gun lobby. An objective, rational look at the facts quickly separates the myth from the reality. Knowledge is power.

Between 1977 and 1995, there have been fifteen school shootings in states without “Right to Carry” laws. In states with the laws, there has been only one.


In Pearl, Mississippi, the assistant principal had formerly carried a firearm to school. When the 1995 “Gun-Free School Zones” law passed, he began locking his firearm in his car and parking it at least a quarter of a mile away from school. When the Pearl shooting incident started, he ran to his car, got his gun, ran back, disarmed the shooter and held him on the ground until the police arrived. Had the law not been passed, he might have been able to prevent the two deaths and seven shooting-related injuries.


0% of children that get their guns from parents commit gun-related crimes, while 21% of those who get them illegally do.


Boys who own firearms have much lower rates of delinquency and drug use and are even less delinquent than non-gun owners.


Firearms in private hands are used 6,849 times every day to prevent crime, including rapes, aggravated assaults, and kidnapping.


In the Rodney King riots of 1992 in Los Angeles, Korean shopkeepers successfully kept looters and pillagers at bay by using “assault weapons” as a deterrent, especially by patrolling rooftops.


About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person. About 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person.


In July of 2001, the FBI lost 449 including automatic weapons. In addition, in 2001, the Immigration and Naturalization Service lost 539 weapons, including a gas-grenade launcher and 39 automatic weapons, some of which were later traced to crimes.


In the first five years, the 15 states that passed “safe storage” laws saw 300 more murders, 3,860 more rapes, 24,650 more robberies and over 25,000 more aggravated assaults with no discernible decrease in accidental deaths.


Handgun distribution and property crime rate are inversely proportional, meaning, as more handguns are owned, less property crime is committed.


90% of all violent crimes in the United States do not involve firearms of any kind.


In the UK, there are 55 crimes per 100 individuals.


Firearms are used 60 times more often to protect lives than to take them.


For every accidental death, suicide or homicide with a firearm, 10 lives are saved through defensive use.


When using guns in self-defense:
-83% of robbery victims were not injured.
-88% of assault victims were not injured.
-76% of all self-defense uses of guns never involved firing a single shot.


If you resist robbery with a gun, you have a 6% chance of being injured. If you do nothing, you have a 25% chance of being injured. If you resist with a knife, you have a 40% chance of being injured. If you resist non-violently, you have a 45% chance of being injured.


192,000 guns are used annually by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.


A woman is ten times as likely to avoid being raped when she is armed (either with a knife or firearm).


In 1966, the city of Orlando responded to a wave of sexual assaults by offering firearms training classes to women. Rapes dropped by nearly 90% the following year.

ArfinGreebly
September 5, 2007, 07:22 PM
In general, I would not argue with someone you wish to have as a friend.

Take him shooting.

Stress SAFETY.

Don't bait him.

Help him get comfortable.

He will originate some kind of comment, like, "It's too bad criminals use these."

Your answer could be something like, "Yeah, I know; I wonder why they let bad people run around loose in society, anyway. You'd think they could figure out that bad guys won't pay any attention to gun laws."

He's a smart guy. He'll notice, eventually, that holding a gun didn't turn him into a homicidal maniac.

Eventually, when you remark, after a good day at the range, "Guns sure are fun, and cheaper than golf," he'll agree and wonder what a rifle costs, anyway.

Just take it a step at a time.

Everyone has his own "critical mass" of understanding.

MIL-DOT
September 5, 2007, 07:40 PM
i agree with everyone that you don't need to over sell. if this guy is willing to go blasting with you, i'd say that's half the battle right there.

Soybomb
September 5, 2007, 07:51 PM
Ultimately why does he believe gun laws have any impact on the gangbangers? They're willing to break the laws against murder and probably are dealing illegal drugs, whats a gun law to them? Thats like thinking your bankrobbers are going to be sure they don't park their get away car in a no parking zone.

DoubleTapDrew
September 5, 2007, 07:51 PM
I don't think bad people should have guns either, but you can't control other people, and thinking more laws will stop people who by definition break the law is just idiotic.

Keep in mind the second amendment doesn't give him the right to do any of those things, nor does it any of us. It restricts the gov't from infringing on natural God-given rights such as the RKBA (although it seems most of the people in the gov't didn't get that memo).

W.E.G.
September 5, 2007, 07:51 PM
You might remind him that guns ALREADY ARE "restricted somewhat."

How many thousands of gun laws are there already?
How many more gun laws does this fella think we need to make him feel comfortable?

Ask him who defends his home, and in what manner is this defense accomplished.

Ask him what would he do if he called 911 and nobody came.

Our takeout culture has brainwashed people into believing that meals are available 24/7 from anonymous people, and that public safety is similarly-dependable - delivered by an army of government drones. How much insight does that show?

I propose that you "debate" this issue with your "new friend" by asking him questions, rather than you asserting anyting as fact. If you are at all intelligent, you should have him backed so far into a corner in less than five minutes, that he might not want be your friend anymore.

Ask him what he would have done in New Orleans if he had been there when the lights went out. That piece of recent history is always a good starting point for this sort of "debate."

Nolo
September 5, 2007, 07:55 PM
I would discuss the issue with him, but do it as a friend. I talked about it with my best friend once (he was formerly a semi-anti) and he basically converted.
Don't get all argumentative, just help him to take a look at the facts (from both sides) and make his own decision.
By all the statistics I've seen, he should come out a gunny.
Especially if you take him shooting.

v35
September 5, 2007, 09:13 PM
Arguments:

-In Ottoman Turkey, gun control was enacted from 1866-1917.
1.25 million Armenian minorities were massacred between 1915 and 1917.
-In the Soviet Union, gun control was enacted from 1918-1991.
20 million people of various backgrounds were killed between 1929 and 1945
...
Good points, but it's been my experience that most people react to them but thinking, "yeah, but that was so long ago / so far away / America is different / that couldn't happen here" etc.

I've had the pleasure of working closely with many people with many backgrounds from many parts of the world. Some came to the US after having their homes taken, their livelihoods destroyed, and their families killed. Whether some government was responsible, or an invading force, or a band of "freedom fighters", didn't matter. They were devastated in every human sense and came here to survive, to start anew.

At the risk of sounding like a bleeding heart, what's surprising to me is not how different they are from many Americans, but how much alike. What happened so far away and so long ago could happen here. The anti's well-intentioned motivations enable such incomprehensible possibilities. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding himself.

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