American Girls’ Suicide Rates Rise


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Old Fuff
September 6, 2007, 04:21 PM
Gun control advocates frequently like to merge suicides with other statistics to inflate the numbers, and either state or imply that firearms, particularly handguns, are the instrument of choice when it comes to suicide. Then of course is their slavish claim that what ever they want is, “for the children.” The following report is current, and provides some impressive (and documented) points for rebuttal.

American Girls’ Suicide Rates Rise
By GREG BLUESTEIN (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
September 06, 2007 12:09 PM EDT

ATLANTA - The suicide rate among preteen and teenage girls rose to its highest level in 15 years, and hanging surpassed guns as the preferred method, federal health officials reported Thursday.

The report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggests a surprising reversal in recent trends.

The biggest jump - about 76 percent - was in the suicide rate for girls ages 10-14 from 2003 to 2004. There were 94 suicides in that age group in 2004, compared to 56 in 2003. That's a rate of fewer than one per 100,000 population.

Suicide rates among all American young people, ages 10 to 24, fell 28 percent from 1990-2003. But in 2004 it shot back up, driven largely by increases among females aged 10-19 and males aged 15-19.

"In surveillance speak, this is a dramatic and huge increase," said Dr. Ileana Arias, director of the CDC's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

Overall, suicide was the third leading cause of death among young Americans in 2004, accounting for 4,599 deaths. It is surpassed by only car crashes and homicide, Arias said.

The study also documented a change in suicide method. In 1990, guns accounted for more than half of all suicides among young females. By 2004, though, death by hanging and suffocation became the most common suicide method. It accounted for about 71 percent of all suicides in girls aged 10-14, 49 percent among those aged 15-19 and 34 percent between 20-24.

"While we can't say (hanging) is a trend yet, we are confident that's an unusually high number in 2004," said Dr. Keri Lubell, a CDC behavioral scientist who was one of the lead authors of study.

The study did not analyze why hanging has become the most common suicide method, but scientists speculated it could be the most accessible method.
"It is possible that hanging and suffocation is more easily available than other methods, especially for these other groups," Arias said.

The CDC is advising health officials to consider focusing suicide-prevention programs on girls ages 10-19 and boys between 15-19 to reverse the trends. It also said the suicide methods suggest that prevention measures focused solely on restricting access to pills, weapons or other lethal means may have more limited success.

Arias said the declining use of antidepressants could be a factor in the spike. But she noted it's "not the only factor" that health officials will be studying to explain the jump. Four years ago, federal regulators warned that antidepressants seemed to raise the risk of suicidal behavior among young people, so black box warnings were put on the drug packaging.

"Suicide is a multidimensional and complex problem," she said. "As much as we'd like to attribute suicide to a single source so we can fix it, unfortunately we can't do that."

The study mentioned other factors that tend to increase the risk of suicide, including history of mental illness, alcohol and drug use, family dysfunction and relationship problems. Note that easy access to firearms in NOT listed.

---
On the Net:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/dvp/suicide
===================

http://enews.earthlink.net/article/nat?guid=20070906/46df7b40_3ca6_1552620070906307780427

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fletcher
September 6, 2007, 04:49 PM
I heard this on the radio on the way home.

This particularly caught my interest:
hanging surpassed guns as the preferred method
Ban rope, sheets, clothes, and anything else you can make a noose or hang yourself from! For the children!

CountGlockula
September 6, 2007, 05:21 PM
Time to love and protect your daughters and nieces more than ever.

Sad article.

davinci
September 6, 2007, 06:06 PM
when I was in high school, in 1997 a fella hung himself. No note, just hung himself on the night before the last day of school. He was someone I knew, but we didn't hang out outside of school.

over the summer, his girlfriend hung herself. She was going to be a sophomore the next year. What a mess it was my sophomore year, the first two months were nothing but mandatory counseling sessions. Hated that mess. They even went so far as to call everyone's parents and invite them to a parent involvement meeting. It wasn't a bad idea, it got parents to ask their kids "why are they doing this?" and it started conversations with the kids that may have been being neglected.

Then, about 4 years later a woman I worked with suddenly stopped coming to work. I asked about what was going on....her son (only child) had killed himself at age 14, the woman was probably about 50 I'd guess. She came back a few weeks later long enough to gather a few things from her desk, she was crying the whole time and looked about 15 years older than she did when she left. It was a big funeral, made headlines.... lots of folks left here missing him.

Teenagers commit suicide more often than we really notice. In the past 12 years I've known of 3. two were hangings, the other I'm not sure about. I'm amazed that overdosing on meds isn't at the top of the list for girls.

All detail aside, it's important to pay attention to your teens and actually talk to them. There's no crazier time in a kid's life than their early high-school years when they're being told "it's time to start acting like an adult" but they are incapable of having a job and they still want to play and have a good time. combine that with drugs, alcohol, social influence and the decade of school they have ahead of them, not too mention hormonal imbalances and you're basically taking the bad stuff from Menopause, a mid life crisis, hangovers, every bad relationship you've ever had and throwing it all together and calling it a "teenager".

A little compassion for our youth may be in order, especially since so many are lashing out in violence against others now.

ilcylic
September 6, 2007, 06:11 PM
There's no crazier time in a kid's life than their early high-school years when they're being told "it's time to start acting like an adult" but they are incapable of having a job and they still want to play and have a good time. combine that with drugs, alcohol, social influence and the decade of school they have ahead of them, not too mention hormonal imbalances and you're basically taking the bad stuff from Menopause, a mid life crisis, hangovers, every bad relationship you've ever had and throwing it all together and calling it a "teenager".

Not to mention being locked in those internment camps they call "schools" all day.

Homeschooling. It's for the children.

MeekandMild
September 6, 2007, 06:11 PM
Not surprising. In the big Canadian suicide study a few years ago there was a small drop in gun related suicides after the ban but the compensatory rise in jumping heights more than made up for it.

Hazel
September 6, 2007, 06:25 PM
Yeah... if someone wants to commit suicide, but doesn't happen to have access to a gun, they will easily find another means to do so. It doesn't matter if you somehow manage to destroy every gun in the world; people who want to kill themselves will do so, regardless of the method. I don't know why, exactly, anyone commits suicide or why the rate is rising the way it is (I have theories, as everyone does, I'm sure, but definitely can't say anything for certain), but you need to meet something like this at the cause of the problem rather than trying to simply fight the result.

Old Fuff
September 6, 2007, 06:29 PM
M&M.... :D

Do you know if copies of this Canadian study can be downloaded from anywhere? It wouldn't hurt to have a supporting study from another country to quote. :evil:

Joe Demko
September 6, 2007, 06:31 PM
Not to mention being locked in those internment camps they call "schools" all day.

You're a true Hero Of The Revolution. I've heard those in my profession blamed for just about everything at this board, but you came up with a new one by attributing suicide to the public school system.
Long days and many nights to you.

geekWithA.45
September 6, 2007, 06:31 PM
Statistically, there have always been gender differences in suicide methods.

Woman generall preferred pills, hanging, or jumping to gunfire, and even when gunfire is selected, women tend to shoot themselves in the chest, where men tend to shoot themselves in the head.

I would guess that hanging surpassing gunfire is primarily more due to the uptick of female suicides than any other factor.

Geno
September 6, 2007, 06:43 PM
ilcylic says:

Not to mention being locked in those internment camps they call "schools" all day. Homeschooling. It's for the children.

Amen! In the five (5) years that I was a junior high/high school principal, I had to intervene on behalf of dozens of students. Society has changed from when I graduated from high school (1979). The research points clean and clear to the idiot-box...TV and Hollywood as it relates to violence (toward others and toward self). The control-freak schools drive the nail in the coffin, and families aren't there to prevent or un-nail the coffin and save the kid.

Most suicides are not serious attempts...they are cries for help. However, we must take all as serious, because we never know which is serious and which is acting out for help. Unfortunately, most school counselors cannot do any significant counseling, because NCLB has them constantly testing and reporting useless statistics. Make no mistake about it, contemporary public schools, are for politicians' resumes, not for the children.

JMHO.

alucard0822
September 6, 2007, 07:14 PM
There are literally hundreds of things one can blame suicide on, some we can control, some we can't. I myself am 28, and I have younger siblings that represent an 8 year spread in age. I know it seems suicide is quite a bit more accepted now than it was in years past, even to the point of it bringing social notoriety and so called respect from others. Parents seem to let the TV and school teach their kids life's lessone more and more, and IMO most should be taught by the parents. Many things contribute to this, more hours spent at work, by both parents, high divorce rates where a single parent just doesn't have the time, availability of tv's and a more sedentary lifestyle. Also at the center is our increasingly liberal society where structured competition is avoided in schools, but materialistic competetition amongst peers is worse. If a student supposedly can do no wrong, and never lose, well then when it does happen they are unprepared. Increases in one method or another are not really important as we all know, someone who has their mind made up will follow through with a convienient, and either non-painful, or a method to "send a message". There is not much a desperate person can do to show their intended audience how they have failed them, or how the suicidal person has failed themselves than to be found swinging from a rope.

What we think, and how we treat teenagers can have a huge impact for the remainder of their lives, no matter how screwed up they might appear, they are mostly just looking for someone to teach them how to be a man or woman, and sometimes need all the help from us that we can give.

ArmedBear
September 6, 2007, 07:16 PM
There's something else.

Adolescent girls are increasingly being fed antidepressants (SSRI's I think, mostly). These drugs are known to have a side effect of suicidal thoughts in some adolescents.

http://www.drugrecalls.com/antidepressants.html

I think it's scary that kids are being drugged to cover up normal emotional development, and the signals that people should be listening to, to help guide us towards a happier existence.

But I think it's even scarier that they're being given drugs that can cause them to become suicidal.

texas bulldog
September 6, 2007, 07:33 PM
I'm amazed that overdosing on meds isn't at the top of the list for girls.

i believe it is atop the list of attempted suicides among girls. i've known a few of them in my lifetime. they just aren't successful because, especially amongst the young, they don't know what to take to achieve the intended result. they take something that makes them sick, which makes them throw it up, which makes them live. the upside is that they don't die. the downside is they often cause significant damage to their liver or other systems with these attempts. the ones that are serious would likely then go on to be "successful" by a different method.

atblis
September 6, 2007, 09:55 PM
Tylenol is popular. Bye bye liver.

esmith
September 6, 2007, 10:00 PM
Wikipedia states that suicidal women are more likely to poisen themselves or suffocate themselves before using violent means like that. Two years ago a kid in my school killed himself by suffocation by squeezing a belt over his neck. Whether or not it was intentional i do not know but it created quite a disruption.

Geno
September 6, 2007, 10:13 PM
Anyone read the article in U.S. News & World Report, pages 62-68, April 23, 2007? It is excellent. The author, Nancy Shute, discusses the increase of "...high-octane fuel..." beverages (coffees and power drinks, etc) and the effect it is having on society. It's worth a serious read.

Invalid
September 6, 2007, 10:46 PM
There's something else.

Adolescent girls are increasingly being fed antidepressants (SSRI's I think, mostly). These drugs are known to have a side effect of suicidal thoughts in some adolescents.

http://www.drugrecalls.com/antidepressants.html

I think it's scary that kids are being drugged to cover up normal emotional development, and the signals that people should be listening to, to help guide us towards a happier existence.

But I think it's even scarier that they're being given drugs that can cause them to become suicidal.

It's shocking to see how quickly prescriptions for Zoloft, Effexor, Xanax, Prozac, etc. are handed out. My family's been taking medications for years and are completely clueless as to what it is beyond "Durr if you skip a dose you get a headache and throw up better keep on it then lol!" Teenagers especially stand in a dangerous demographic- their brain is still developing, and causing a prolonged imbalance of serotonin/norepinephrine/GABA like that at such a time seems awfully shifty. Nowadays people stay on anti-depressants and anti-anxiety regimens for years only because if they stop taking it, they experience horrible withdrawals, even risking seizures and death. Don't get me started on prescription opiates and painkillers.

Also, how is that article skewed? I mean, it doesn't address guns much at all, other than that they have been used less than rope in teen suicides. It's providing statistics- just because they mention guns and don't delve into 'why guns aren't that harmful' doesn't mean the article qualifies as an anti-gun report.

telomerase
September 6, 2007, 11:09 PM
I've heard those in my profession blamed for just about everything at this board, but you came up with a new one by attributing suicide to the public school system.

Hey, don't get mad... just quote him the stats on suicides in public-schooled kids vs. private-schooled or home-schooled. That'll set him straight.


:D

Old Fuff
September 6, 2007, 11:25 PM
Also, how is that article skewed? I mean, it doesn't address guns much at all, other than that they have been used less than rope in teen suicides. It's providing statistics- just because they mention guns and don't delve into 'why guns aren't that harmful' doesn't mean the article qualifies as an anti-gun report.

I started this thread, and I agree with you – the article isn’t anti gun. That’s what‘s important about it.

The gun-control crowd consistently preach that guns are a cause of suicide, simply because they exist and are available. Others either say or imply that firearms are the principal method used to commit suicide, and of course they add suicides (sometimes all of them) to pad other statistics purporting to represent the number of people killed by firearms each year. When they can link suicides to any of the “for the children” issues they bring up, their in hog heaven.

This article, backed by a scientific study by the U.S. Government’s Center For Disease Control (CDC), debunks their position, and even says that:

The CDC is advising health officials to consider focusing suicide-prevention programs on girls ages 10-19 and boys between 15-19 to reverse the trends. It also said the suicide methods suggest that prevention measures focused solely on restricting access to pills, weapons or other lethal means may have more limited success.

And:

"Suicide is a multidimensional and complex problem," she said. "As much as we'd like to attribute suicide to a single source so we can fix it, unfortunately we can't do that."

This isn't what anti-gunner's are going to want to read, and that why the article (and the CDC study) are important to us. ;)

benEzra
September 6, 2007, 11:29 PM
You're a true Hero Of The Revolution. I've heard those in my profession blamed for just about everything at this board, but you came up with a new one by attributing suicide to the public school system.
Long days and many nights to you.
Joe, it's not true of all schools, and certainly the teachers are not IMHO the ones at fault, but many schools have become amazingly stressful.

Our daughter was in KINDERGARTEN last year and was bringing home 2 to 3 hours of homework a night. She developed symptoms of acid reflux and some neurologic symptoms from stress, and she's one of the good students (reads on a 3rd-4th grade level), well liked, athletic, and doesn't get crap from bullies. The cause? Her school got onto one of the No Child Left Behind act's "left behind" lists, so the powers that be decided that working the kids to pieces, scaling back recess, and constantly teaching to the test was The Thing To Do. (And yes, we've since pulled her out of that environment, and she's now thriving.)

I can't imagine what it must be like for the adolescent who is abused by bullies, struggles academically, and lacks a supportive home environment.

geekWithA.45
September 6, 2007, 11:56 PM
Suicide 101:

An undergraduate level psych primer on suicide, current as of the late 80's, rendered from my 'ol college notebook:


*Suicidal thoughts: No biggie...everyone has them, every now and then. It's part of the human condition, and often motivated as a side thought to the fundamental human question #4"what's it like to be dead?"

Sidebar: Basic human questions:
----------------------------
1) Who the heck am I?
1a) Who the heck are you?
2) What the heck am I doing here?
3) Where is my One True Love?
4) What's it like to be dead?
5) What's the deal with God
5A) where's that rat hiding out?
----------------------

*Suicidal ideation: Distinguished from suicidal thought both by its frequency, and by it beginning to take the form and shape of a -plan-. A person in a state of suicidal ideation will make tentative choices (Pills? Shoot? Jump?) and will start to contemplate how he or she can assemble the required gear.

*Suicidal gesture: Gestures are pleas for attention and help, not death. "Failed suicide attempts" are most often suicidal gestures that work as planned. (ie: take a bunch of pills 10 minutes before you know the family will return home, that sort of thing) Suicidal gestures that do -not- go according to plan results in a successful suicide.

*Suicide attempt: An attempt at suicide whose purpose is to achieve death. People serious about ending it all do so in unambiguous ways that are more likely to inflict irreparable fatal damage. They arrange significant privacy, perhaps by traveling far into the woods where they are unlikely to be found or stumbled upon. They tend to leave notes more frequently than those engaged in gestures, (though gestures often write notes as well)

*Hesitation marks: Additional cuts/stabs/gunshots/etc, and so forth found on or near the body or person. These are pretty frequently found, and aren't as useful as one might think in terms of distinguishing a person who is making a gesture vs. a serious bid for death. They are the result of our normal, ingrained habit of not damaging ourselves, and also a function of anatomical ignorance.

Warning Signs:

* Sometimes, they flat out tell you. Perhaps not loudly, and perhaps it's laughed off as a joke, but they flat out tell you more than folks would think

* Indirect and veiled verbal or nonverbal references

* The giving away of treasured possessions

* The sudden indulgence in physical pleasures, or the sudden active fulfillment of lifelong desires (eg: extravagant and budget busting trips/vacations without regard to financial consequences)

* Certain categories of folk are at higher risk: the aged, the misfit, the chronically depressed (note: depressed people are at the highest risk not at rock bottom, but shortly after they come around the bend, and muster enough energy and enthusiasm for the task)

* Substance abuse is often a factor...the dis inhibiting effect opens the path

walking arsenal
September 7, 2007, 12:14 AM
I cant find it now. But years ago in LEO school we read a study on how people that shoot themselves in many cases end up just messing themselves up because they flinch just before they squeeze the trigger.

Hangings were popular because it gives the family something to bury.


Not to mention being locked in those internment camps they call "schools" all day.

I would wager that has a lot to do with it. Did at my high school, depression among students went up after we moved from the old one (open campus) to the new one (closed campus). The new one was designed by a company that typically designs prisons.

Nolo
September 7, 2007, 12:16 AM
I didn't know dolls could commit suicide...
;)

CTPistol
September 7, 2007, 12:29 AM
homeschooling - very, very odd.

The homeschooled kids I know in the 5-10yr old range are the most socially challenged, scared kids I have ever met.

It might be trendy, but I have seen NOTHING good about it. It seems many of the parents are doing it for themselves, not the kids. They think they are superior, caring parents but they are often raising social freaks.

:(

sig226
September 7, 2007, 12:34 AM
Statistically, there have always been gender differences in suicide methods.

Woman generall preferred pills, hanging, or jumping to gunfire, and even when gunfire is selected, women tend to shoot themselves in the chest, where men tend to shoot themselves in the head.

I would guess that hanging surpassing gunfire is primarily more due to the uptick of female suicides than any other factor.

The article addresses this question here:

The study also documented a change in suicide method. In 1990, guns accounted for more than half of all suicides among young females. By 2004, though, death by hanging and suffocation became the most common suicide method. It accounted for about 71 percent of all suicides in girls aged 10-14, 49 percent among those aged 15-19 and 34 percent between 20-24.

Since firearms accounted for "more than half" of all the suicides at one point, hanging could be at most 49%. Now hanging accounts for 71%.

IIRC John Lott discusses this in one of his books, calling it substitution. A study compared the rates and methods of suicide in several countries. Two of them were Japan and the United States. Japan has a higher rate of suicide than the U.S.A., but a far lower rate of firearm ownership. The Japanese found other ways to commit suicide.

It might be in a different author's book.

Tom Bri
September 7, 2007, 12:36 AM
As for school, I know I hated almost every minute of it. Luckily, I was the type to have an active fantasy life, so I dreamed my way through the worst of it. Suicide never seemed reasonable to me, and we were all shocked when a well-liked boy in school did it.

It would not surprise me to hear that school was a 'cause' of suicide, at least in kids already predisposed to it.

Davo
September 7, 2007, 12:43 AM
Ive been a street medic for 8 years now. By far the overwhelming majority of suicide attempts I've seen are teenage girls-typically after getting dumped . Usually its a pretty lame attempt, like 3 tylenol and a wine cooler. Older women go a little farther but are almost never succesful.
Id guess that males are still comitting suicide at a much higher rate, but I haven't seen the data gathered on it.
Still a shame though. And it seems our youth are getting more and more drugged and depressed, and being a kid is tough in the first place.

Dienekes
September 7, 2007, 01:16 AM
School--tell me about it. We moved when my son (now doing well, almost 30) was 16. Lots of stress, mostly school-related. When, in addition to that, some of the local kids saw an opportunity to mess up his knee in PE, I wound up with a pretty depressed kid on crutches. I went to see the local principal to express my concerns, and he couldn't care less...if he had known what was in my mind at the time he would have wet himself.

It all worked out. No thanks to that "professional" educator.

No grandkids yet but the odds are high that they *will* be homeschooled--and I will be happy to help pay whatever it takes.

Kids have it rough these days. We owe them our best, not the floor sweepings.

Robert Hairless
September 7, 2007, 02:30 AM
Beginning in 1997, among persons aged 10--14 years, suffocation surpassed firearms as the most common suicide method. The decline in firearm suicides combined with the increase in suicides by suffocation suggests that changes have occurred in suicidal behavior among youths during the preceding decade.

The above is from the same CDC report (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5322a2.htm)and refers to suicides of both sexes.

I don't think that the facts will have any effect whatsoever on the beliefs or actions of anti-gun people. Their belief systems seem not to have much basis in fact. They are true believers.

I apologize for interrupting this discussion of homeschooling. :)

samus
September 7, 2007, 09:09 AM
As tragic as each individual suicide is, I don't believe the facts point to society-wide problem. If .0001% of our population commits suicide, does this indicate an social problem, or a peculiar individual problem? If 99.9999% of Americans will not commit suicide, do we really have a problem that can be fixed with generous amounts of social-engineering?

Old Fuff
September 7, 2007, 09:15 AM
I don't think that the facts will have any effect whatsoever on the beliefs or actions of anti-gun people. Their belief systems seem not to have much basis in fact. They are true believers.

Absolutely right! But the article, and the study behind it, will provide ammunition to rebutt their arguments - particularly in public forums such as news media editorials. I think that it is far more productive to address those that are undecided and still have open minds. When it comes to a debate or discussion, gun control advocates tend to be emotional, with arguments that are a mile wide and an inch deep.

StuckInMA
September 7, 2007, 10:34 AM
With the proper spin, this can be viewed as a victory for the gun control crowd IMHO. They've pushed for more gun control and now there is data that proves (in their mind) that it led to less suicides by firearms. They don't care what the suicide rate is in this case. As long as the use of firearms is down it proves they have been successful in curtailing a certain type of gun violence with gun control.

JohnL2
September 7, 2007, 10:52 AM
Adolescence is a tough time all around.
Just about everybody is fighting a private battle. Some more than others. A few carrying unimaginable burdens. Preps, jocks, burnouts, skateboarder types, losers, and stoners. God the labels.
Hell, I'm surprised I made it through.

Oh, I hung out with the skateboarder crowd by the way. Most from broken homes. NOBODY messed with us. Not even the jocks. They knew better. We'd whip their asses in a heartbeat.
I guess you could say we all got eachother through.

walking arsenal
September 7, 2007, 12:11 PM
They think they are superior, caring parents but they are often raising social freaks.

As opposed to the liberal amounts of social freaks coming out of the public system?

A lot of the junk they teach in public schools these days i wouldn't want my kids to learn. I.E. Guns are bad, we're destroying the earth or trust the Gov they are your friend.

A lot of debates i have had with the younger types start out with "well in school we learned".

Home schooling isn't bad when the kids are allowed to get out and meet others. I've met plenty of good kids that have been home schooled.

Gator
September 7, 2007, 12:28 PM
Not to mention being locked in those internment camps they call "schools" all day. Homeschooling. It's for the children.

Gotta agree with that. My high school years were hell, and after that I was involved, on a volunteer basis, with a suicide prevention program. I can't help but think the pressures of growing up and school have gotten much worse these days. Reading articles like Old Fluff posted hits me hard.

There are facts there that we can use to counter the gun-banners arguments, but also think of positive ways you can have an impact on young people you know.

Hazel
September 7, 2007, 12:51 PM
I'm sorry, I just have to say something about the little public vs. home school debate going on here. A kid's schooling does not determine their entire path in life. Granted, it does have an influence, but just because someone goes to public school does not mean that they will become a gun-grabbing, environmentalist libtard. Keep in mind that the kids go home every day, where their parents can easily teach them good values to counter the BS often taught in the schools. Perhaps it's better if people would do that so that their kid can go teach the same stuff to his/her friends; I don't know. I completely understand people who homeschool their kids and don't want that to be part of their child's primary education (trust me on this), but you shouldn't automatically assume that the public school system will have such a huge influence that any child exposed to it will turn out horribly. Anyone who takes responsibility for raising his/her own child should end up with a reasonably good kid (or adult, rather), regardless of school.

For the record, I'm not really on either side of this issue. I support home schoolers and despise all the **** that's taught in the public schools these days. Hell, I ain't gonna let my kids even begin to belive any of it (if/when I have kids, that is). However, home schooling is definitely not for everyone, and as I said before, it doesn't make all that much of a difference in the end, as long as the parent takes responsibility as a parent and doesn't just let the school raise their kid (which, sadly, has been very much on the decline).

geekWithA.45
September 7, 2007, 01:39 PM
Moderatorial Voice: Let's keep this thread on topic.

Old Fuff
September 7, 2007, 02:01 PM
StuckInMA:

As long as the use of firearms is down it proves they have been successful in curtailing a certain type of gun violence with gun control.

They'll have trouble with that too. Over the time period cited in the study more states passed "shall issue" CCW laws, Alaska eliminated any restrictions, and the number of guns (especially handguns) substantially increased. Data is available at the ATF&E website.

And again, the CDC says:

The CDC is advising health officials to consider focusing suicide-prevention programs on girls ages 10-19 and boys between 15-19 to reverse the trends.

Which many of the posts on this thread are advocating too in one way or another. In addition the CDC says that:

... prevention measures focused solely on restricting access to pills, weapons or other lethal means may have more limited success.

Which we have been saying all of the time. ;)

romma
September 7, 2007, 02:22 PM
I am so depressed I want to kill myself... What? Oh, I can't get a gun to do the deed with?

Oh, I guess I will just have to get happy again and rule out any other method for suicide and go on with my life... :uhoh:

Mat, not doormat
September 7, 2007, 03:01 PM
One of the biggest societal malfunctions is the concept of "normal." People are different. They grow at different rates, mature at different rates, have different interests, different talents, different abilities. But the school system doesn't recognize this. They need people to deveolop the same, learn the same ways, and at the same rates for their regimented programs of intstruction to work. Hence, when any individual falls too far outside the norms that their programs are designed to work with, the system tries to "normalize" him. Enter the "normality," drugs. Prozac, Ritalin, et cetera. "Forget indivdual attention, if they aren't 'normal,' then let's drug 'em till the are!"

Ick. I had particularly poor experiences in public schools. Haven't really gotten myself straightened out, yet. Working on it, though.

~~~Mat

Mat, not doormat
September 7, 2007, 03:18 PM
Hell, I ain't gonna let my kids even begin to belive any of it (if/when I have kids, that is).

Hazel, that can cause a lot of friction between kids and teachers; "But my folks said _____!" "Well, your folks are wrong, _____ is the way it is!"

I had plenty of those arguments.

BTW, is that Hazel Meade, Hazel Davis, Hazel Stone, Gwen Novak, or Gwen/Hazel Ames/Campbell?

~~~Mat

JohnL2
September 7, 2007, 04:21 PM
Mat, not doormat you make a great point.
I wanted out of high school so bad you wouldn't believe it. And the thought of more classrooms via college turned me off completely. I ABSOLUTELY HATED IT. HATED IT WITH A BURNING PASSION.
It would be years before I returned to a normal school. Guess what? I HATED IT AGAIN.

40SW
September 7, 2007, 04:33 PM
The article is not written my mentally sound individuals.
proof.
quote
"In 1990, guns accounted for more than half of all suicides among young females. By 2004, though, death by hanging and suffocation became the most common suicide method. It accounted for about 71 percent of all suicides in girls aged 10-14, 49 percent among those aged 15-19 and 34 percent between 20-24."

Guns are not responsible for anything. Guns are inanimate objects. Inanimate objects cannot be attached responsibility. They are not sentient. By taking personal responsibility out of the equation you are supporting Sigmund Freud's contention that "the fear of weapons and similar inanimate objects is a sign of dementia", I cannot give legitimacy to an article written by the mentally ill.

Stevie-Ray
September 7, 2007, 05:11 PM
I wanted out of high school so bad you wouldn't believe it. And the thought of more classrooms via college turned me off completely. I ABSOLUTELY HATED IT. HATED IT WITH A BURNING PASSION.
It would be years before I returned to a normal school. Guess what? I HATED IT AGAIN.As did I. I coasted through high school and didn't do badly at all. Mostly I was bored with it. When the time came to go to college, I was 38. This time it was for me and I excelled. But I still HATED EVERY MINUTE of it. One of the best days of my life was my final day of college.

I received a free gun from a family member that didn't want it around anymore due to another family member being on constant suicide watch after a couple attempts. The attempts were not gun related but no chances were being taken.

Hazel
September 7, 2007, 06:10 PM
You do have a point there, Mat. I suppose it can cause a good deal of arguments. I usually just sat quietly and rolled my eyes every time a teacher said something ignorant, so I guess I didn't really think of that. Eventually, I got fed up with listening to it though, and asked my parents if I could home school. I'm also sorry to hear you had bad experiences in public school, and hope you get it all worked out.
To answer your question, Hazel Meade is who I had in mind. Haven't read the other books in which she's mentioned, though I definitely intend to.

Well, I want to add something to keep this on topic, but there's not much to say except more speculation. Every case of it is different and there are many different possible causes for someone to go that far. People are over-drugged for it, though. Modern medicine isn't the answer to everything.

sig226
September 7, 2007, 07:01 PM
With the proper spin, this can be viewed as a victory for the gun control crowd IMHO. They've pushed for more gun control and now there is data that proves (in their mind) that it led to less suicides by firearms.

Someone probably will try to make this claim, but it won't work. The number of gun owners increased by around ten million since 1990, and the number of privately owned firearms in this country increased by far more than that.

IIRC NRA had some specific numbers, but the AW ban and the advent of RTC laws drove firearm sales to new heights. In fact, it "proves" that more private guns and gun owners decreases firearm suicides. :)

StuckInMA
September 7, 2007, 07:31 PM
Old Fluff and sig226. You're thinking too rationally and not putting enough spin on it. ;) More guns only means more crime when they want it too. If you take Alaska out of the equation (which they most certainly will) they will tell you that their legislation was so good that it worked even though gun ownership increased.

If they march that message out in front of fence sitters and anti's who don't have the whole story or both sets of facts they may just believe it.

Keep in mind I think it's a bs argument. I just see it as something to keep in mind in case they do choose to go that route.

Mat, not doormat
September 7, 2007, 07:32 PM
Hazel, defintitely do read more Heinlein. His books are all very good, and some are truly outstanding. I'd say that The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Stranger in a Strange Land, Starship Trooperrs, and Time Enough for Love, are peerless in sci/fi.

I suppose I should probably put something in to keep this somewhat on topic. Hmm. There are far too many ways to kill oneself, or others, for that matter, for any attempt to control killing through controlling the tools to have any real effect.

Imagine, for a moment what life will be like once the Nanny State progresses to the point that ALL available methods of harming one's self or one's fellow man have been eliminated or controlled: no guns; all cooking done in communal kitchens, with only specially trained persons having access to kn ives, all powered vehicles removed from human control, all ropes designed break @ 100 lbs of pressure, no platic bags, all buildings, bridges, and other high structures built with safety nets; all rocks permanently glued to the ground, and even then, there are still a zillion ways to do it. Any tool can be used as a makeshift weapon. In the modern world, there's always electricity. Even with all that taken away, a healthy human is never totally disarmed. Hands, feet, knees, elbows, shins, even teeth can all do the job. In the end, the only way to stop a determined person from killing is solitary confinement. The only way to stop a person determined to kill himself is total physical restraint. The question then becomes: what's the point?

In the end, there are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous men.


~~~Mat

Old Fuff
September 7, 2007, 08:54 PM
StuckInMA:

If they march that message out in front of fence sitters and anti's who don't have the whole story or both sets of facts they may just believe it.

Of course they will, or at least some of them will. That's why it's important to disprove what the anti's say with reports from unimpeachable sources like this one. This is the way to attack their creditability. Do nothing and they win by default.

Prince Yamato
September 7, 2007, 10:27 PM
You know, no one has mentioned it, but many churches used to emphasize that if you killed yourself, you were damned. This view has never been emphasized in recent years. I don't want to get in a theological debate, but as a psychological factor, it would seem that this teaching would be effective in preventing suicide. You may not like this life, but if the afterlife is spent in Hell... Figure lack of that view and fewer kids going to a church anyway... well, there you have it. I'm by no means saying it is the sole reason, but I bet it would contribute to it.

Stevie-Ray
September 7, 2007, 11:22 PM
Most Christian churches teach that the only unpardonable sin is blasphemy of The Holy Spirit, i.e. slapping God's hands away and saying no thank you.

Mat, not doormat
September 8, 2007, 03:33 AM
Umm, according to the Catholic church, if you kill anyone, it's a mortal sin, and without confession and absolution, you go to hell. If you kill yourself, it's a little hard to confess, ask for, and recieve absolution.

The mainline protestant groups, like Methodists, Baptists, and Lutherans seem to share that thought, to a degree. You can be forgiven for murder, but you have to ask. If you've just murdered yourself, it's a little late to ask. Once again, you die with a rather nasty sin against your name.

The more Evangelical born again types seem to think that you don't get forgiveness on a piecemeal basis, but rather you are "Washed clean in the blood of the Lamb, and saved!" However, it seems unlikey that someone "basking in the glow of God's Love," who has "a personal relationship with their Lord and Savior," and all that would kill themselves. Ergo, If you're saved, then you won't kill yourself, if you kill yourself, then you weren't saved, all along.

Don't even get me started on the predestination crowd, like the Calvinists, and such.

So, where's this "most christian churches," stuff coming from? I've yet to run across any (aside from suicide cults) who think that it's a good idea. If the church did allow it, it might have saved a bunch of martyrs a bunch of pain and suffering.

Anyhow, we now return you from your regularly scheduled thread veer...

~~~Mat

Prince Yamato
September 8, 2007, 06:13 PM
Umm, according to the Catholic church, if you kill anyone, it's a mortal sin, and without confession and absolution, you go to hell. If you kill yourself, it's a little hard to confess, ask for, and recieve absolution.

As well as Eastern Orthodox churches (which worked nicely for Bram Stoker in his novel Dracula). But as I stated before, most (perhaps MANY would be a better term) Christian churches emphasized suicide as a damnable (literal or otherwise) offense. Up until a decade ago, it was considered unacceptable to even bury a suicide victim in a Catholic cemetery.

Again, I'm not trying to espouse my or others religious views concerning suicide, but I believe when these views were held by many people, it acted as a deterrent. ie, "you think your life is bad now, well if you kill yourself, you're going to Hell for eternity, how bad do you think that is?" And to steer things back to firearms, I think it's ludicrous to believe that they increase the number of suicides.

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