ATF stats on "illegal" guns in NYC


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hnk45acp
September 7, 2007, 11:22 AM
NYC LOADED WITH OUT-OF-STATE GUNS
By LARRY CELONA and HASANI GITTENS

September 7, 2007 -- Holy shoot!
The federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has revealed that 85 percent of guns recovered in New York City last year, and that could be traced back to their original owners, come from other states.
According to a report published on the agency's Web site, it also turns out that Brooklyn is the place to be for pistol packers and only eight machine guns were recovered in the city last year.
"This Web site allows ordinary citizens to get a glimpse of what their local police departments are up against in battling illegal firearms traffickers," said William McMahon, Special Agent in Charge of the ATF New York Field Division.
"By analyzing trace results, ATF can better focus our resources to stop the flow of illegal guns into New York," he said.
The ATF was able to trace the original owners of 3,258 firearms recovered last year.
Only 14.5 percent of those guns - 471, the largest number - were followed back to New York state owners.
Out of state, the most originated from Virginia (393), followed by Pennsylvania (317), Georgia (309), South Carolina (289), North Carolina (271) and Florida (217).
Meanwhile the most guns by far were recovered in Brooklyn - 2,558. Queens and The Bronx both had about 1,600, Manhattan 1,017 and Staten Island 295.
And recoveries were up last year by nearly 20 percent at 7,059 firearms compared to 6,031 in 2005.
One of the big statistics the ATF focuses on is "Time-to-Crime," which measures the period between the point when the gun was legally bought and when the weapon was used in a crime.
McMahon said that index has been going up steadily since 2002 when the average time was 9.4 years. Last year the average time-to-crime was 12.3 years.
"That's a good thing," he said, "because that means that there are fewer newer guns coming into the city."
He said that any time a gun recovered with a time-to-crime of less than two years, the agency immediately sends a team out to the original purchaser to track the weapon's movement. The ATF data also shows that the good old pistol is the preferred weapon for the discerning criminal - making up 83 percent of the illegal haul.
More than 4,000 semiautomatic pistols were recovered in the city last year, and an additional 1,774 revolvers, according to the ATF.
Rifles finished a distant third at 618, and 486 shotguns were also recovered.
Derringers - old fashioned, two-round handguns - rounded out the top five with 89.
The ATF also breaks down the firearm recovery data by brand, but it's doubtful any of the manufacturers will be boasting about it in their next ad in Guns & Ammo.
The Hi-Point 9mm semiautomatic was the top gun in New York City, with 310 taken off our mean streets. There were 300 Smith & Wesson .38-caliber revolvers recovered.
Gunplay also is a young man's game, according to the numbers. When an age of the possessor was provided, 57 percent were between 18 and 30 years old, 73 percent were 18-40.
larry.celona@nypost.com

They could trace only 3258 out of 7059 guns less than 50%

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grasssnake
September 7, 2007, 11:38 AM
Be interesting to breakdown the crimes associated with these weapons.
Such as, was it just a crime to have it on their person?

hnk45acp
September 7, 2007, 12:39 PM
These guns I believe were seized by the police so I would say they were probably used in a crime.
and Yes merely having a gun on you or in your house without a permit is a crime in NYC

Zoogster
September 7, 2007, 12:39 PM
Well since handguns are illegal in NYC it is safe to say that all of them where used in a crime, and all of them were possessed by criminals (possibly first becoming criminals by having them.)
The crime they were used in could be possessing them, having them concealed in public etc

In countries where guns are illegal, 100% of them are owned and used by "criminals". That does not mean they are all possessed by predators or violent people. However ownership of something illegal makes someone a criminal regardless of how they use it.

Self defense will be much more highly scrutinized and one is more likely to get charged with murder etc in a good shoot, because shooting and possession of the gun is illegal and the jury will be composed of people not allowed to own them either. If it is so obviously self defense that such charges would fall apart, they will still be charged with numerous weapons violations.

DWARREN123
September 7, 2007, 03:36 PM
It the criminals not the firearms or are they just stupid trying to blame the firearms.

Old Fuff
September 7, 2007, 05:58 PM
According to New York City's Mayor, all of these evil handgun are sold to gunrunners by outstate dealers. Many he says, fall into the wrong hands through straw buys, and to prove it he set up some of his own.

I would presume that illegal buyers that go to the trouble of using someone else to buy the gun would pick a new model. Therefore I find it interesting that the time between original purchase from a dealer (which is the only kind the ATF&E can trace) to when it was associated with a crime is now over twelve years!

Somehow I get the feeling that what the Mayor says, and the truth of the matter aren't too close together... :scrutiny:

USAFNoDAk
September 7, 2007, 06:19 PM
12 years time to crime? Sheesh. To hear the liberals tell it, straw purchasers are making the run from Virginia to NYC every weekend to deal "illegal" guns to criminals. Shouldn't the time to crime be a matter of days, weeks or months, rather than 12 years? Something smells fishy, unless I misread or misunderstood what they were saying.

QuickDraw
September 7, 2007, 07:00 PM
What I find interesting is the lack of data of how
many firearms were RETURNED to their rightful owners.:(
Why do the powers that be just assume its a good thing
just to "get them off the streets".The guns,after all, are
property belonging to someone.(This assumes that the
guns were stolen)

denfoote
September 7, 2007, 07:32 PM
Be interesting to breakdown the crimes associated with these weapons.
Such as, was it just a crime to have it on their person?

Hard to do when simply thinking about a gun in NYC is a crime!!!

Robert Hairless
September 7, 2007, 11:48 PM
I can no longer resist the pressure to throw my hat in the ring and announce my candidacy as Mayor of New York City. The major plank in my platform is my solemn promise to dramatically reduce the flow of illegal guns into New York City.

I guarantee that I will do it within the first month after I take office.

My opponent, Michael Bloomberg, has admitted that he cannot solve this simple problem. It is beyond his ability to do so.

I will solve it.

On the first day after I take office I will order the police chief of New York City to issue concealed weapons permits to all residents of the city who pass a NICS background check. All permit holders may then own as many firearms as they please and can afford. They will not be entitled to commit murder in any degree or manslaughter, armed robbery or robbery without arms, or any other crime.

I also will inform people that I am not their nanny or their mommy and that it's not up to me to control their lives. Smokers may smoke, anyone may eat trans fat, and I will stop feeding them bologna.

Since the future former Mayor of New York City has set the precedent in which that office is able to intervene in the affairs of other cities and states, and of the federal government itself, on the day I become Mayor of New York City I will also announce my candidacy for the mayorship of every other city in this country, the governorship of every state, and the presidency of the United States of America. In those places where I am elected I will straighten out their messes. In places that do not elect me I will tell them what to do anyway, and I will send teams of operatives into their areas to enforce my laws. They will be paid for out of New York City funds. In these matters there will be no change from the current Mayor's policies and practices.

hnk45acp
September 8, 2007, 01:12 AM
Mayor Hairless has my vote

Robert Hairless
September 8, 2007, 01:38 AM
I'm on a roll! :)

hnk45acp
September 8, 2007, 05:19 PM
Just 3-4 million more votes and we're good. Oh yeah, that means you'll have to move here.

Prince Yamato
September 8, 2007, 05:22 PM
Well since handguns are illegal in NYC

No, they're not. You can get them, it's just expensive and a hassle. CCW is VERY difficult to get. Handguns are NOT illegal in NYC if they are properly registered.

aadg1
September 8, 2007, 05:25 PM
Hairless do you think anyone would vote for someone who posts on a weapons forum and advocates allowing people to own semi auto pistol machine guns?

QuickDraw
October 9, 2007, 08:10 PM
Whats a semi-auto pistol machine gun?
More importantly,how do I get one.:D

Standing Wolf
October 9, 2007, 08:49 PM
Robert Hairless would get my vote if I were willing to live in that cesspool.

Conqueror
October 9, 2007, 08:57 PM
I want to know how many were used in crimes OTHER THAN "illegal possession." The anti-gunners will be shouting that all these guns were "used in crime" but that's totally false if they weren't USED. A gun isn't USED in crime if it stays tucked in some felon's waistband while he sits at home watching Jerry Springer, yet it goes in the ATF's report as a "recovered crime gun" if they check his home and find it.

Same crap the antis used when banning .50BMG in California, they pointed out all these instances where .50s were "used in crime," but if you actually read the cases it was usually some guy who got arrested for a totally unrelated cause and happened to have a legally-owned Serbu in the trunk.

MilsurpShooter
October 9, 2007, 11:01 PM
Well since handguns are illegal in NYC

Wrong

It's just a pain to go through the process and costs quite a bit of (non-refundable) money

http://home2.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/permits/handgun_licensing_information.shtml#fees

Fees


$340.00 - Made payable to the New York City Police Department, must be paid by certified check or money order.

Effective October 1, 2007, Civil/Applicant Fingerprint fees will decrease from $99.00 to $94.25, for all applicants that are fingerprinted on the Live Scan Machine only.

Applicants who must be manually fingerprinted will submit a money order in the amount of $105.25.

All fees are payable to the New York City Police Department.
The above fees must be paid separately.

ALL FEES ARE NON-REFUNDABLE

If you have any questions concerning your application, please call (646) 610-5560. Applications must submitted in person at the License Division, Room 110, Monday through Friday, 8:30 a.m. to 3:30 p.m.

Zoogster
October 10, 2007, 06:09 AM
Excuse me, I had the Sullivan Act in mind when thinking about thier legality.
Legal but intentionaly difficult as to discourage most people, and requiring police permission seems close to illegal in my mind.
How it has been used to deny various people handguns for generations, especialy in NYC caused me to speak incorrectly.

There would was a time when something like the Sullivan Act would have made most think that for all intent and purposes FREE possession was outlawed. Now I guess it is just a normal government infringement to many that was merely ahead of its time in 1911.

rdhood
October 10, 2007, 08:20 AM
I'm guessing... given a time-to-crime of 12.3 years and that fact that the Hi-Point was the #1 gun... that the common denominator among these guns is price... cheap.

I also notice no mention of the dreaded "assault weapons"

TexasRifleman
October 10, 2007, 08:49 AM
Hairless do you think anyone would vote for someone who posts on a weapons forum and advocates allowing people to own semi auto pistol machine guns?

See even the guys from DU are scared of Hairless, they've sent a spy!!!!!

ozwyn
October 10, 2007, 08:54 AM
+1 TexasRifleman

If you're going to be a spy, try learning something about the subject, sheesh.

Robert Hairless
October 10, 2007, 03:09 PM
As you might have noticed I've been absent from this thread for the past month or so. The reason is that I have been on the campaign trail, explaining my platform as simultaneous candidate for every political office in this country.

No, I will not have to move to New York City after I am elected its Mayor in the next election, or to any of the other cities I will govern as their mayors either.

Although it's understandable to think that there will be a problem if I don't, may I remind you that such requirements are simply matters of law. As Mayor C. Ray Nagin of New Orleans and Mayor Mike Bloomberg have demonstrated, mayors have no obligation to comply with any laws. (I don't mean to slight my future predecessors as mayors of other cities either. The mayors of cities such as Washington, D.C., and Norfolk, Virginia, most certainly do their part to uphold the principle that mayors are above the law. So do many other mayors.)

I shall follow in their footsteps. And, of course, because I will do so you can all expect to have concealed weapons permits at no cost: one of the well established principles is that mayors take care of their friends. Since I want as many friends as possible, everyone gets a concealed weapons permit except for people I don't like. That's another principle followed by mayors and other city officials, and you can count on me to be no exception.

It has occurred to me that I've been unnecessarily excluding other countries from my campaign, so I've decided to extend it to Australia, Canada, England, and every other country too. The one possible exception is Poland. Polish sausage gives me gas. On the other hand, it is well known that gas prices climb steadily higher, so maybe I can help the world that way too. I'll give it serious thought.

Yes, the rumor is true. I would not start a rumor that wasn't true. I have now decided to declare for every elective office in the world. It was a hard decision but I've finally realized that if Mayor Bloomberg of New York City can run the world there's no reason why I can't do it too.

Abolish any thought that I can't win because I approve of semi automatic guns. I can win simply because the moment I take office I will issue a proclamation changing their name to something like "Reality Joysticks" or, maybe, "Metal Veggies." I will go assure my place in history by making everyone feel safe because there will no longer be semi automatic firearms. The name is the problem, not the reality, and successful politicians don't bother with reality anyway.

Not to worry. I've got a handle on everything. Remember my major campaign slogan: "A vote for Hairless is a vote for me."

mljdeckard
October 10, 2007, 03:21 PM
""By analyzing trace results, ATF can better focus our resources to stop the flow of illegal guns into New York," he said."

Since when is it the duty of BATFE to monitor the flow of guns into NY state? Isn't that NY state's problem?

hnk45acp
October 10, 2007, 03:25 PM
I think Hairless is a clone. It's the only way he can be in so many places at once.

onewithgun
October 10, 2007, 03:26 PM
If you guys hate your guns then vote Guiliani, Romney, Clinton or Obama. If you want these pathetic agencies to come to an end. Vote Ron Paul.

TexasRifleman
October 10, 2007, 04:26 PM
Metal Veggies

Where do I send money? I need the bumper sticker

"A vote for Hairless is a vote for Metal Veggies"

That will keep my neighbors guessing for sure!!!

RPCVYemen
October 10, 2007, 04:43 PM
Since when is it the duty of BATFE to monitor the flow of guns into NY state? Isn't that NY state's problem?

My guess is that flow of guns (or any other product) into or out of a state is intestate commerce. Within a state is a different issue.

It would be interesting to know these stats about other states or metropolitan areas. Anybody have any references for others states or big cities?

Mike

ROMAK IV
October 10, 2007, 06:56 PM
IIRC, after you apply for a handgunpermit in NYC, you have to wait 2 years to be told NO!!! Since the Police Chief has disctretion, he uses his discretion to say no, almost everytime. You see, back when Lloyd Bentsen was Treasury Secretary, he was alarmed that some "evil potential illegal gun possessors" were applying for FFL's in order to bypass the city's draconian (essential gun ban) permit process. That's when Bentsen and Clinton started their Federal Firearms License Holder Harassment Program, which, unfortunately, Bush 43 hasn't terminated, and is presently in the news with the harassment of "Red's". You will scratch your head at Bentsen's justification: Most problems with gun sales are caused by a small number of FFL holders. Since many, (at the time) FFL holders transfer few guns in a year, the ATF staff, doesn't have the manpower to investigate all of them. He said this on Nightline. I was certainly scratching my head. If the majority of the FFL holders don't sell guns, or sell very few guns, then thay can't physically be the problem with large numbers of (alledged) illegal guns. Bensen, who had been a NRA life member and was considered a conservative Democratic Senator of Texas, completely deserted the gun rights cause when he joined the Clinton administration, and was eventually given the "Presidential Freedom Medal" for his part in denying freedom to the Branch Davidians near Waco. Bentsen also eventually resigned his NRA lifetime membership, but only had the courage to do so after Bush 41 already had set the precedence.

Anyway, those "statistics" are quite doubtful. Gun trace data, isn't reliable, and the out of state qualification is largely irrlevant. When the federal government has a program in place with the specific purpose of reducing the number of FFL's in NYC, and the city has an affective gun ban, what would anyone expect?

Millwright
October 10, 2007, 10:13 PM
What would be even more interesting would be the breakdown on how many of the 'recovered' guns entered the criminal traffic stream by being stolen from individuals or businesses.

If we presume a population of 8M for the five boros the numbers mean less than one-half of one percent of the population had a illegal gun or committed a crime with one. This compares with the overall national stats for less than one half percent of all guns ever being used in a crime. Given the dense population, diverse and often conflicting ethnic groups, and gang activity NYC is doing far better than much smaller Philadelphia. >MW

hnk45acp
October 10, 2007, 11:45 PM
IIRC, after you apply for a handgunpermit in NYC, you have to wait 2 years to be told NO!!!
Not true. It's a pain and takes about 6-10 months but if you aren't a convicted felon and are mentally sound you can get a permit

Seminole
October 11, 2007, 11:46 AM
It looks to me like Virginia, Pennsylvania, Georgia,South Carolina, North Carolina, and Florida should be immensely grateful to NYC for taking so many Hi-Points out of those states! :evil:

Dr. Peter Venkman
October 11, 2007, 11:54 AM
Stop the illegal immigration of gunz! :p

detcap
October 12, 2007, 04:15 AM
Hairless do you think anyone would vote for someone who posts on a weapons forum and advocates allowing people to own semi auto pistol machine guns? Something about filing down a pin, or buying a kit at a gun show might do it. But then that would be illegal, and crooks do not follow the law anyway.

How about Cho Seung-Hui’s 2005 stay in a psychiatric center under a magistrate’s order have raised questions about whether background checks adequately scrutinize the mental health history of potential gun buyers?
Federal law prohibits those who have been “adjudicated as a mental defective” by a court, as well as those who have been involuntarily committed to a mental health facility, from buying a firearm.

Only 17 states, however, submit such mental health information to the background check systems they use on gun purchases. Although Virginia has some of the most permissive gun laws in the country, the state does, in fact, include such mental health records in the background checks it conducts when someone tries to buy a handgun. However, Cho Seung-Hui still bought a gun "legally" and committed a massacre at Virginia Polytechnic Institute. Even private sector pre-employment background checks can give instant results and are permitted to cover a lot more categories of information such as current phone number, address, address history for 30 years, age, birth dates, household members, relatives, associates, property ownership, lawsuits, marriage, divorce, criminal records check, sex offenders, terrorist watch (http://backgroundsearch.com), bankruptcy, tax liens, etc. At least they could have figured out whether this guy was a mental case before they sold him the gun.

strat81
October 12, 2007, 11:40 AM
Applicants who must be manually fingerprinted will submit a money order in the amount of $105.25.
Ouch. When I applied for my NE permit, I applied for my UT permit at the same time. NE used a scanner, while UT requires the blue card. A pleasant gentleman (he wasn't dressed as an officer and didn't identify himself as such) at the State Police office fingerprinted me for free. FREE. Not for $10, $20, and certainly not $105.25. It took about 10 minutes total to do, not 20 seconds like on TV.

I'm so glad I left NYC. I miss the pizza and bagels, though!

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