problem: suicide, solution: get rid of guns


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atek3
September 7, 2007, 04:04 PM
so says a famous doctor no less:
Comment by Benjamin N. Shain, MD, PhD, Ass. Prof., Northwestern Feinberg School Medicine (http://www.google.com/news?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS229US229&ncl=1120421917&hl=en&topic=m&btclp=1&scoring=r)

* Remove firearms from the home. Studies show that even when firearms in the home are locked up, teens are significantly more likely to kill themselves than those in homes without firearms.

I'm glad he footnoted the "studies" so that interested parties could verify the veracity of his statement... Oh wait, he didn't...

atek3

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Zundfolge
September 7, 2007, 04:06 PM
send her to Japan ... not hardly any guns and more suicide than the US.

Jim Watson
September 7, 2007, 04:12 PM
Well, you can't really compare Japan to the US, an entirely different culture. Which is why they have more suicides per capita than we do gun murders plus all suicides.

I apply Bubba Logic like so: In the US, call somebody a worthless S.O.B. and he feels insulted and might kill you. In Japan, call somebody a worthless S.O.B. and he decides you are right and kills himself.

High suicide rate in the Scandinavian countries, though; hardly seems right for the descendants of the Vikings, does it?

DoubleTapDrew
September 7, 2007, 04:14 PM
Yes, suicide can and will only be comitted with a gun. Don't help the person who is depressed, that's too much work. Just ban guns, sharp objects, rope, overpasses, water, plastic bags, sleeping pills, alcohol, drugs, vehicles, enclosed spaces, etc.

* Remove firearms from the home. Studies show that even when firearms in the home are locked up, teens are significantly more likely to kill themselves than those in homes without firearms.
So the presence of an inaccessible firearm makes people kill themselves by other means, or does the person expire trying to beat the safe open with their head? Wow all this time I thought guns were mechanical tools but apparently they posess inexplicable cosmic mind control powers!

Mr White
September 7, 2007, 04:17 PM
Studies also show that medical doctors attempting to further their personal agendas by veiling them as legitimate medical issues have very little credibility with intelligent human beings.

camslam
September 7, 2007, 05:15 PM
Yeah the good doctor has got it all right. :neener:

From the study: Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder And Suicide, published this year:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

-Overall suicide rates were no worse in nations with many firearms than in those where firearms were far less widespread.142

-Sweden, with over twice as much gun ownership as neighboring Germany and a third more gun suicide, nevertheless has the loweroverall suicide rate. Greece has nearly three times more gun ownership than the Czech Republic and somewhat more gun suicide, yet the overall Czech suicide rate is over 175% higher than the Greek rate. Spain has over 12 times more gun ownership than Poland, yet the latter’s overall suicide rate is more than double the former’s. Tragically, Finland has over 14 times more gun ownership than neighboring Estonia, and a great deal more gun‐related suicide. Estonia, however, turns out to have a much higher suicide
rate than Finland overall.

-There is simply no relationship evident between the extent of suicide and the extent of gun ownership. People do not commit suicide because they have guns available. In the absence of firearms, people who are inclined to commit suicide kill themselves some other way.143

-Two examples seem as pertinent as they are poignant. The first concerns the 1980s increase in suicide among young American males, an increase that, although relatively modest, inspired perfervid denunciations of gun ownership.144 What these denunciations failed to mention was that suicide of teenagers and young adults was increasing throughout the entire industrialized world, regardless of gun availability, and often much more rapidly than in the United States. The only unusual aspect of suicide in the United States was that it involved guns. The irrelevancy of guns to the increase in American suicide is evident because suicide among English youth actually increased 10 times more sharply, with “car exhaust poisoning [being] the method of suicide used most often.”

Trying to keep this high road, what a friggin moron! :banghead: At least get the facts before you put them out there as gospel.

skinewmexico
September 7, 2007, 05:43 PM
Substantially more people killed by doctor's mistakes than by suicide every year.

MD_Willington
September 7, 2007, 05:57 PM
Contact the guy..
http://enh.org/apps/findadoctor/doctor.aspx?docid=2129&lid=1789

Then contact google news:


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Bazooka Joe71
September 7, 2007, 05:59 PM
Better get rid of sleeping pills, razor blades, and bath tubs while we're at it.

For the children.

Substantially more people killed by doctor's mistakes than by suicide every year.

And I guess doctors too!

For the children.

Marlin 45 carbine
September 7, 2007, 06:06 PM
one of the highest suicide rates (IIRC#3)per profession is psychologist/pshychatrist (sp?) thought about it too much. :uhoh:

Zundfolge
September 7, 2007, 06:18 PM
Well, you can't really compare Japan to the US, an entirely different culture.
Culture, schmulture ... guns cause increases in suicides because they are magical talismans of evil and violence that make otherwise healthy people into homicidal/suicidal fiends ... we all know it, this guy is just brave enough to admit it and face the wrath of the multi trillion dollar evil gun lobby.

Tommygunn
September 7, 2007, 06:35 PM
I recall a study (and dang it I can't recall where!!!:banghead: ) that concluded that what happens with regards to suicide after gun bans is this:
At first, the suicide rate does drop. But then after a year or so, it rises, and in fact continues to rise even above the original base level for a year ... and then settles right back where it originally started from.
The "conclusion" seems to have been that while it thwarts some people who use guns, for awhile, they eventually will turn to other devices.

Don't help the person who is depressed, that's too much work.
That would certainly seem to be the most rational approach to the problem!;)

JohnKSa
September 7, 2007, 06:37 PM
Problem, teen suicide. Solution, get rid of guns.
Problem, teen pregnancy. Solution, free education and prophylactics.

Anyone else tired of the inconsistency?

v35
September 7, 2007, 06:54 PM
There should be a mandatory waiting period for listening to country music.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=257295&highlight=country+music

GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE...
My favorite FACT:

Fact: Banning country music might be more effective – one study shows 51% of the suicide differential can be traced to country music. (Source: Steven Stack, Jim Gundlach, “The Effect of Country Music on Suicide”, Social Forces. Volume: 71. Issue: 1.,1992)

Kentak
September 7, 2007, 07:43 PM
With all due respect, I believe some of you are taking the doctor's advice out of context. As I read the article, the advice about removing guns from the home is in the context of being only one of several precautions to take IF you have reason to believe a teen in the home is at risk for suicidal thoughts. Nowhere do I read it as a blanket precaution to be taken absent signs of a suicide risk.

Edited to add:
Several sources state that teen suicided are more prevalent in homes with easy access to guns. Teens, unlike suicidal adults, are more likely to commit the act impulsively. Adults contemplate suicide for longer periods of time and plan the method with more deliberation. A teen who takes pills or cuts because there is no gun available will often survive. Gunshots are more likely to be fatal the first time.

If a teen in the home was abusing alcohol, would you allow access to your liquor cabinet? If a teen in the home was abusing prescription drugs, would you not lock yours up? These are precautions you would take *while* doing other things to help the teen overcome the underlying problems. Being extra secure with firearms with a seriously depressed teen in the home is just common sense.

sources: Brent, D.A., Perper, J.A., Moritz, G., Baugher, M., Schweers, J., & Roth, C. (1993). Firearms and adolescent suicide: A community case-control study. American Journal of Diseases of Children, 147, 1066-1071.
Kellerman, A.L., Rivara, F.P., Rushford, N.B., et al. (1992). Suicide in the home in relationship to gun ownership. New England Journal of Medicine, 327, 467-472.

K

JohnKSa
September 7, 2007, 07:55 PM
As I read the article, the advice about removing guns from the home is in the context of being only one of several precautions to take IF you have reason to believe a teen in the home is at risk for suicidal thoughts.That read is inconsistent with this quote from the article.

(Teens) "...usually kill themselves at most only a few hours after deciding to do so."

Novus Collectus
September 7, 2007, 08:10 PM
* Remove firearms from the home. Studies show that even when firearms in the home are locked up, teens are significantly more likely to kill themselves than those in homes without firearms.
As someone probably already pointed out, out of how many non-fireams suicides by a teenager did they compile any data on if there was a firearm in the home?
Number of suicides of teenagers using a firearm in 2004: 848

Number of suicides of teenagers who did NOT use a firearm in 2004: 1,139

Estimated percentage of American homes with firearms in them: about 40%

40% of all 1,987 teen suicides combined is 795. "Significantly more likely" my ass!

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars/

Old Fuff
September 7, 2007, 09:57 PM
Gun control advocates frequently like to merge suicides with other statistics to inflate the numbers, and either state or imply that firearms, particularly handguns, are the instrument of choice when it comes to suicide. Then of course is their slavish claim that what ever they want is, “for the children.” The following report is current, and provides some impressive (and documented) points for rebuttal.

Being focused on the potential method of suicide, rather then the motive or cause behind it, can be a serious mistake. Where there is the will, there will always be a way.


American Girls’ Suicide Rates Rise
By GREG BLUESTEIN (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
September 06, 2007 12:09 PM EDT

ATLANTA - The suicide rate among preteen and teenage girls rose to its highest level in 15 years, and hanging surpassed guns as the preferred method, federal health officials reported Thursday.

The report from the (U.S. Government's) Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggests a surprising reversal in recent trends.

The biggest jump - about 76 percent - was in the suicide rate for girls ages 10-14 from 2003 to 2004. There were 94 suicides in that age group in 2004, compared to 56 in 2003. That's a rate of fewer than one per 100,000 population.

Suicide rates among all American young people, ages 10 to 24, fell 28 percent from 1990-2003. But in 2004 it shot back up, driven largely by increases among females aged 10-19 and males aged 15-19.

"In surveillance speak, this is a dramatic and huge increase," said Dr. Ileana Arias, director of the CDC's National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

Overall, suicide was the third leading cause of death among young Americans in 2004, accounting for 4,599 deaths. It is surpassed by only car crashes and homicide, Arias said.

The study also documented a change in suicide method. In 1990, guns accounted for more than half of all suicides among young females. By 2004, though, death by hanging and suffocation became the most common suicide method. It accounted for about 71 percent of all suicides in girls aged 10-14, 49 percent among those aged 15-19 and 34 percent between 20-24.

"While we can't say (hanging) is a trend yet, we are confident that's an unusually high number in 2004," said Dr. Keri Lubell, a CDC behavioral scientist who was one of the lead authors of study.

The study did not analyze why hanging has become the most common suicide method, but scientists speculated it could be the most accessible method.
"It is possible that hanging and suffocation is more easily available than other methods, especially for these other groups," Arias said.

The CDC is advising health officials to consider focusing suicide-prevention programs on girls ages 10-19 and boys between 15-19 to reverse the trends. It also said the suicide methods suggest that prevention measures focused solely on restricting access to pills, weapons or other lethal means may have more limited success.

Arias said the declining use of antidepressants could be a factor in the spike. But she noted it's "not the only factor" that health officials will be studying to explain the jump. Four years ago, federal regulators warned that antidepressants seemed to raise the risk of suicidal behavior among young people, so black box warnings were put on the drug packaging.

"Suicide is a multidimensional and complex problem," she said. "As much as we'd like to attribute suicide to a single source so we can fix it, unfortunately we can't do that."

The study mentioned other factors that tend to increase the risk of suicide, including history of mental illness, alcohol and drug use, family dysfunction and relationship problems.

On the Net:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/dvp/suicide
===================

http://enews.earthlink.net/article/n...70906307780427

camslam
September 7, 2007, 10:00 PM
Kentak: Here was my problem with the good doctor.

Remove firearms from the home. Studies show that even when firearms in the home are locked up, teens are significantly more likely to kill themselves than those in homes without firearms.

I don't care what context he puts that in, it is a lie and not factual. Studies do not show that homes that have firearms locked up are less likely to have kids kill themselves.

It is just another ignorant person, passing on misinformation about a subject they are not educated on. To me that is tantamount to intentionally lying. If you are too lazy to get the truth about something, don't say anything about it at all. Especially if you are passing information on as a "so called expert".

It is bad enough we have to deal with an agenda driven media, why should we put up with garbage from people like the Dr. who are supposedly more trustworthy?

The Viking
September 7, 2007, 10:26 PM
High suicide rate in the Scandinavian countries, though; hardly seems right for the descendants of the Vikings, does it?
Almost 80 years of Social Democratic tyranny does funny things to your head.

Bezoar
September 7, 2007, 10:40 PM
This is one of those times when the evidence can and will be skewed to fit anyones pet theory to a t.

Instead of getting guns away from us, why dont they focus on the problem that makes people commit suicide? IF you looked closely i bet you would see that most suicides are caused by economic reasons, so get rid of letting debt be a deciding factor in denying work.

Kentak
September 7, 2007, 10:51 PM
camslam,

There's locked up, then there's locked up. I have no idea why you are getting so worked up about this article. The doctor whose comments are referenced in the OP is, by any definition, an expert in adolescent psychology, depression, and suicide. I suspect you are not.

Nowhere in the comments does the doctor suggest *banning* guns in society as a means of preventing teen suicide. He suggests removing firearms from the home when there are warning signs of serious mental issues, such as depression, with a teen in the home. Do you find something sinister about that suggestion? Would you want your seriously depressed son or daughter to have easy access to the guns in your house while helping your child return to a more mentally healthy condition? Are you going to use the availability of other methods of suicide as a reason *not* to secure the most effective, instantaneous, and irreversible method? Do you feel it some sort of betrayal of RKBA to temporarily secure or make unavailable firearms to a loved one who is experiencing difficult mental health challenges? Do you refuse to believe troubled teens may act impulsively and fatally when access to guns is easy and immediate? Do you believe your own child or children are immune from mental illness and depression?

K

Kentak
September 7, 2007, 11:06 PM
Instead of getting guns away from us, why dont they focus on the problem that makes people commit suicide?

Are you suggesting that the doctor is not advocating dealing with the suicidal teen's problems? Are you suggesting he believes removing firearms from the home is a "solution" rather than a prudent precaution for the duration of the crisis?

K

camslam
September 7, 2007, 11:22 PM
Kentak: I didn't realize I was getting "all worked up" about this. But thanks for the heads up, I'll try to calm down a bit. :)

I don't think anything from my comments dealt with aspects regarding the suicidal tendencies of others, and what I would or would not do in regards to their potential actions.

I was simply putting forth the fact that guns get a bad enough rap from every media source. And when a "so called" expert makes a blanket statement, that homes with guns have significantly more suicides, that is just plain incorrect. If it was some joe-schmo that said it, people probably wouldn't give it much thought, but because an "expert" said it, it must be true. My comments are more about the Dr. and his irresponsible statement.

Any responsible gun owner is going to have his firearms secured regardless if there is a suicidal person in the house. I have taken measures in my own home to make sure I have access to loaded weapons that are ready to be used, but they are all locked up in safes of one kind or another and in secure locations in my home.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, I am simply arguing the Dr. made an irresponsible blanket statement that cannot be proven true. If he had said parents should remove anything that is dangerous and can be used to kill a person from the house, I wouldn't have had an issue. But he chose to single out firearms with a statement that is inaccurate. Why nothing about knives, pills, rope, or any other object that is used as frequent or more frequent than firearms?

Hopefully you catch where I am coming from on this.

The Unknown User
September 7, 2007, 11:25 PM
Awesome, someone with a scholary degree inflating statistics and making absurb suggestions.

Inherently, if a firearm is not readily present, it cannot be used in a suicide. However, the problem is not whether or not a firearm is readily present--it is why one is so seriously clinically depressed to the point where they want to take their own life.

Frankly, if one wants to take their own life, they will succeed if they want to badly enough. What's important is that someone wants to take their own life, and will likely attempt to do so until they succeed. I fail to see why the emphasis of this issue is on the chosen method by which one takes their own life.

Removing firearms from homes will not, under any circumstances prevent suicides from taking place. Removing firearms from homes will only cause an increase in other methods of suicide taking place

xd45gaper
September 7, 2007, 11:32 PM
i guess he missed the most recent report on Teen girls committing suicide. i herd on the radio lastnight it is up something like 70%. and this is the shocker. they said they are more likely to use hanging or asphixiation as a method. infact it even said hanging or asphixiation is the most common cause of death in teen girls next to car accidents.

basically they said the report showed teen suicide in females where up 70% i think and they where more likely to hang them selves than use a gun. and basically more cars and ropes kill them than firearms.

Old Fuff
September 8, 2007, 09:18 AM
What exactly did Dr. Shain say? Well according to the O.P. he said this:

* Remove firearms from the home. Studies show that even when firearms in the home are locked up, teens are significantly more likely to kill themselves than those in homes without firearms.

I don’t think that anyone would take a position that loaded guns should be easily accessible in households where there is a potentially suicidal person, teen or otherwise. I do take exception to Dr. Shain’s statement that:

Studies show that even when firearms in the home are locked up, teens are significantly more likely to kill themselves than those in homes without firearms.

Given the context, I would say that he is saying that locking up firearms and ammunition isn’t good enough. The ONLY viable solution is to move all firearms out of the house. He is also implying that regardless of how they are secured, the teen (or whoever) will use a firearm to the exclusion of all other methods.

Now “locking up” can cover a lot of ground so far as degree and methods are concerned. But I don’t think that many teens (or adults for that matter) break into a locked gunsafe when they’ve decided to do themselves in. Given the many alternatives to firearms I think the person involved would more likely choose an easier path to a method. Perhaps my observation is the reason Dr. Shain did not provide any citations for the “studies” he mentioned.

And yes, given the circumstances we have every right to question Dr. Shain’s recommendation, and the motives behind it.

tacmedicp94
September 8, 2007, 11:44 AM
It's been my misfortune over the years to work quite a few suicides. If someone really wants to kill themselves they WILL find a way. The most common I've seen with teens is hanging, with firearms present in the house in more than a few cases. It seems to be the 40ish males who tend to use their own guns on themselves, and it does usually appear well thought out. I don't know about national statistics but that seems to be the trend in my neck of the woods.

sixgunner455
September 8, 2007, 01:31 PM
Kid committed suicide in AZ a few days ago. Stepped out in front of a car doing 60 mph. She was emotionally distraught because her boyfriend and two other friends had recently died in vehicular accidents.

Did it at the site of her boyfriend's accident.

Very sad and very tragic for the whole area. Driver was a nurse on her way to work. Sadness compounded.

Wouldn't have been surprised if she'd shot herself, what with all the guns in AZ. Just goes to show, suicide/murder/death have little or nothing to do with the tools used to do it.

Ieyasu
September 8, 2007, 01:53 PM
send her to Japan ... not hardly any guns and more suicide than the US.
However, Japan has a lower teen suicide rate than the U.S.

Regarding a different post, nice off-the-cuff analysis Novus Collectus. Suicide methods do appear to be highly substitutable.

Novus Collectus
September 8, 2007, 04:57 PM
However, Japan has a lower teen suicide rate than the U.S.
I seriously doubt that since overall suicide rate in Japan is twice ours. I think you need to check again.
Please note that murder suicide of families in Japan is recoreded as all suicides. But even excluding those stats, I seriously doubt, given the numbers of how many times higher all suicide rate is in Japan compared to the US, that the teen suicide rate in Japan is even close to being lower than the US teen suicide rate.
Do you have a link?

Ieyasu
September 8, 2007, 05:29 PM
I seriously doubt that since overall suicide rate in Japan is twice ours. I think you need to check again
Okay...

Rates per 100K, of course.
15-24 yr-olds:
U.S. 13.7
Japan: 8.6

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_sui_rat_in_age_15_24-suicide-rates-ages-15-24

Please note that murder suicide of families in Japan is recoreded as all suicides
I believe that is incorrect nowadays, but even if true, has absolutely no significant effect on Japan's suicide stats for teenagers.

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