Us Army Drill & No Ammo


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birdv
September 7, 2007, 06:00 PM
200 Army reserve soldiers are not going to qualify this weekend because they do not have AMMO!!! I believe they will be heading to IRAQ shortly 3-6 months.

I just got the text message from their range officer. "NO AMMO"

Half of these guys cannot even zero their weapon. :fire:

I know it is not everyones job to fire a weapon in the army; however they should at least have the chance to zero and qualify with the m16 before going downrange.

?IS THIS HAPPENING WITH OTHER RESERVE UNITS?
OR IS THIS NOT A BIG DEAL

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entropy
September 7, 2007, 06:10 PM
Sounds like supply has a nice view of the back of their bult buckle.......

41magsnub
September 7, 2007, 06:12 PM
God I hope not...

This happened to me in the mid 90's which freaked us out and there wasn't a war on. Ok.. ok.. Bosnia but you get the point.

U.S.SFC_RET
September 7, 2007, 06:13 PM
Hold on you your horse soldier. No one is sending anyone downrange without qualifying first. You will zero and qualify so many times everywhere you go until you ge there. You will get trained and trained and trained some more and then you you will get trained up to your eyeballs and then you will do it in your sleep buddy. Don't panic. Uncle is watching over you.:)

CannibalCrowley
September 7, 2007, 06:20 PM
Sounds like a local screw up, not an "OMG there's no more ammo in the Army" issue. The actual ammo for the shoot should have been reserved well in advance. If it wasn't, that's more a case of negligence than any imagined shortage.

Car Knocker
September 7, 2007, 06:52 PM
Obviously this calls for further diversion of commercial ammo manufacturing to military needs.

Sheldon J
September 7, 2007, 07:09 PM
Military ammo has always taken precedent over civilian period, and as many rounds as the manufactures are grinding out I am betting someone someplace in supply was taking a nap at the wrong time.

birdv
September 7, 2007, 08:04 PM
"U.S.SFC_RET" God I hope so!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh the **** I heard about officers at seal would make you **** your pants!
EXP(If you lose a weapon more than once you should not be an officer)

This is the first time the range officer has been the range officer.
They were gripping about the uppers not telling them how much.

To find NONE!

mljdeckard
September 7, 2007, 08:12 PM
Um, it depends on a few things.

Yes, it sounds like a supply screw up, but there are other factors as well. I am currently in a tradoc unit, under which the current guideline to let students qualify is: "All students will be given the opportunity to qualify at least once during the course of their training. (At this post.) I've done MOUT, and extensive first aid, but I'm not going to get to qualify. And yes, my home unit is scheduled to go downrange immediately when I get home. At my home unit, going to the range was always regarded as a nuisance to begin with, and we now have FATS, and our CO lets us qualify in a simulator. (A VERY good simulator, but still a simulator.) I could feasibly go to Iraq not having done a live fire qualification since JUNE 1993.

Perhaps the guys in combat arms can take for granted that they will live-fire ad nauseum, but this is far from certain for some other fields.

birdv
September 7, 2007, 08:50 PM
could feasibly go to Iraq not having done a live fire qualification since JUNE 1993.

I am gussing you can shoot.

DougW
September 7, 2007, 09:34 PM
The way it works, the soldiers will spend 2 to 4 weeks in the field and on the range in Kuwait before moving north. They will have a range to re-qual and cross train when they get to their FOB. They will get plenty of trigger time before moving through the "jungle".

But, before that, the guardsmen are usually sent to a large Army base (Ft Hood here in Texas for example) to train up, or even the NTC if they are fortunate. But, it depends on their MOS. My son is in the Army Band, and was not sent with the rest of the Division to NTC. He got "OJT" after reaching the FOB in convoy and patrol duties. That part sucked, buyt he did put a couple thousand rounds down range before starting patrols, so he was compitent and confident in his skills with his weapons (quals expert on rifle, M249, and Mk19).

The nice thing is that he will be back very soon, as his tour is nearly over.

MisterPX
September 7, 2007, 09:38 PM
They'll do plenty of shooting at their Mob station, then plenty more when they hit the in country prep site.

Did they even order any ammo in advance? Or did they expect it to magically appear?

easy
September 7, 2007, 09:42 PM
Recent similar situation near Fresno, CA

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=68101

ctdonath
September 7, 2007, 09:54 PM
Huh. Country at war, insufficient ammo.

Wouldn't it be nice if there was something in our Constitution that said something like, say, oh, I don't know...
"a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
...so that, you know, people would have the basic armaments (ammo included) to function in training and in combat...?

Seriously: isn't that what the real point of the 2nd Amendment is? Just the people on this thread alone could likely provide the ammo needed until proper resupply can fill in! Got an address and we could FedEx at least a box each? now wouldn't THAT make for a heckuva news story...

ctdonath
September 7, 2007, 10:03 PM
birdv,
Got an address, contact, or something?
Maybe we could put this up in the Activism forum, have people mail a box or two each, and get word out that it's law abiding citizens that are resupplying our military, thanks to the 2nd Amendment!

U.S.SFC_RET
September 7, 2007, 11:47 PM
ctdonath Quoted:Got an address, contact, or something?
Maybe we could put this up in the Activism forum, have people mail a box or two each, and get word out that it's law abiding citizens that are resupplying our military, thanks to the 2nd Amendment!
That will never cut it. The military will never accept "any" ammunition whether military grade or otherwise. The best thing to do is tell Birdv to contact "his" chain of command and work out a solution and if a solution cannot be resolved then let Birdv contact his "congressman" Nobody knows for sure except his chain of command knows what's going on with this issue. Chances are there is a reason for it. Ammunition supply specialists in the Army will know what went wrong. Base Support Batallions or equivilant will know what went wrong. These two elements will know long before Birdv's unit would of known. Could of been a diversion of funds due to the oncoming beginning fiscal year Oct 01 and the requesting unit spent all of their training funds for the fiscal year 2007. You don't roll heads until you get to the bottom of the heap first.
Units that perform well above average might get above average allocation of funds. Units that don't, don't. So remember when the finger gets pointed there are always three pointed right back.

Jorg Nysgerrig
September 8, 2007, 12:38 AM
isn't that what the real point of the 2nd Amendment is?

To supply the military with ammo in case they run out during training? Uh, no.

pinstripe
September 8, 2007, 03:00 AM
Sounds like, to me, that the procurement officer just got his a%* in a sling. There is plenty of ammunition available, but you need to get it ordered first. GEEE!:banghead:

birdv
September 8, 2007, 03:16 AM
The military will never accept "any" ammunition

I offered ammo and this is a big NO NO!

range officer
the enemy has much less we can make do

U.S.SFC_RET knows what he is talking about.

Titan6
September 8, 2007, 03:57 AM
I do not think the unit will go without a current qualification unless someone really monkeys with the paperwork to try to cover their but. The unit is required to be current prior to deploying despite whatever their job or priority level will be when they get there.

I don't know if I would call my congressman but I sure would let someone know a good long while before I got on a plane.

Thin Black Line
September 8, 2007, 02:31 PM
Everyone will at least qualify, then they will go. Now having enough ammo
for realistic live-fire training is a different matter entirely and I speak from
first hand experience in this matter:

My total pre-deployment training was two weeks before wheels up. I had
one visit to the range, I qualified as expert, and that was the last time I
saw live ammo till I was in Kuwait. My convoy training consisted of a couple
hours in a video game trailer and a 200 yard drive down a road where only
HALF of us were even provided w/ blanks. Afterward, we rolled out of a parked
humvee a couple times and our Convoy Ops training was certified as complete.

This sounds like the kind of training the Soviets had prior to deployment in
WWII and it's happening right now here in America for GWOT.

Pretty freakin' sad, huh?

Titan6
September 8, 2007, 02:39 PM
Yes, however since most everyone is on tour #2 (or 3) What difference does it really make?

Vern Humphrey
September 8, 2007, 03:06 PM
The Army has a training management system that identifies and orders or reserves the needed resources for training well before the training is scheduled to happen. This is a local screwup, caused by not following the standard system.

Noxx
September 8, 2007, 03:11 PM
This sounds like the kind of training the Soviets had prior to deployment in WWII and it's happening right now here in America for GWOT.

"When the one with the rifle is killed, the one following picks it up."

Thin Black Line
September 8, 2007, 03:33 PM
Yes, however since most everyone is on tour #2 (or 3) What difference does it really make?

Titan6, part of me finds that funny. The other part, the one that remembers
that it was my first deployment, does not.

The Army has a training management system....This is a local screwup, caused by not following the standard system.

Vern, I was an activated Reservist (not NG) who had no prior deployments and
I was sent to a place that handled both AD and Reserve together (including
some small representation by the AF and Navy). That's how we were trained,
the people in the two weeks before us and the people who came two weeks
after us. It was all set up in two week brackets and we were only delayed if
our flight was. You had two chances to qualify (and I'm not sure how that
was squeezed in given our schedule) and if you didn't, you stayed behind and
waited for the range day during the next two-week session while the people
you were orignally with went forward.

This was the "standard system" when I went and looking back on it now it
strikes me as rather Soviet.

E20thLRP
September 8, 2007, 03:33 PM
AHhhhh Anyone Going to the Sand Box will be issued AMMO and a chance
to Zero individual weapon I don't know what Unit that was But
I live in the Fort Benning (you know home of the Infantry) area and just called the Boss at Range
Control and he told me that was B.S. now this could of happened
the supply Sargent forgot to order ammo for them to Qualify and
they would not have it for that day !! but we had enough on hand
for Physical year 2007 that Lake City and others were working .......... working .......24/7 .....
to get caught up !!! BUT THE CIVILAN MARKET might feel it first !!
Echo.....Out

Vern Humphrey
September 8, 2007, 03:41 PM
This was the "standard system" when I went and looking back on it now it strikes me as rather Soviet.
Armies are not warm and cuddly -- they do what they have to do.

Nevertheless, the system orders or reserves all required resources well ahead of time -- if you can't get what you need, you have time to reschedule that training, and do something else in the interm.

Titan6
September 8, 2007, 03:43 PM
Well at least they gave every man a gun instead of every squad. The soviets were very responsible for turning the Eastern front into the meat grinder it was but logisitcs played a role also. I think the OP was saying that he suspects a logisitcs problem when this is likely a paperwork problem.

U.S.SFC_RET
September 10, 2007, 10:02 PM
Every Batallion has an Ammunition Officer in charge and an Noncommissioned Officer in Charge The NCOIC for short has this job at Batallion level as his sole job. That is his bread and butter job. He went to school for it. Ammunition supply. Ordnance Ammunition,how they eat and ship whatever type of ammunition the U.S. Army needs to fulfill whatever mission requires. The sole purpose of anyone in the Army is to put steel on target. Mechanics fix vehicles so ultimately the vehicle either puts soldiers on the battle site to put steel on target or the weapon platform.
Understand it this way. Ammunition Supply Sergeant is not just a supply Sergeant who orders whatever the unit needs. Ammunition Supply Sergeants deal strictly with ammunition and is a close advisor to the commander on the ground dealing with ammunition requirements.
Range Officers are often simply elected by their commanders to run the range. They are often not even qualified to give you an appropriate answer as to why the ammunition didn't get there. His response could be the typical response "supply forgot to order it"
What probably happened was funds got diverted and the ammunition purposly did not get ordered and the training did not get cancelled.
There is short term planning for training and there is long term planning. Short term planning is used to make sure range time gets cancelled if ammunition is not available for whatever reason.
Long term planning is used to plan the range, set aside funds for ammunition. calender planning, yada, yada, yada. The basics.
These tools are an attempt to cut the last minute crunch time out of the way. To manage time more effectively. To limit the hurry up and wait.

trueblue1776
September 10, 2007, 10:08 PM
Ha ha ha ha ha ha

Ok, I'm not gonna call anybody a military noob, but...

Ammo is a command/supply function, you just have some retards in your division. It happens. If your supply guys are clever they'll civilian source it that day, and get some ammo quick.

Not to bust any balls, but if these guys have been in the Army for any period of time, who cares about range qualification?

U.S.SFC_RET
September 11, 2007, 06:59 AM
trueblue1776 Quoted:Ammo is a command/supply function, you just have some retards in your division. It happens. If your supply guys are clever they'll civilian source it that day, and get some ammo quick
Impossible, how could they source civilian ammunition? The accounts get tracked and they get busted and lose their career. Civilians cannot supply the military with ammunition, it must be controlled.
Ammunition is readily available right on post. All they need is a truck with the proper hazmat cards on the side and a qualified driver who is licensed to go and pick it up. Proper paperwork should have been done up. These guys know the drill, they more than likely been doing it long enoughand can do it standing on their heads.
Government Ammunition is one of the most tightly controlled commodities on military installations. World wide. One of the reasons why the military will never accept cilivilian ammunition is the lack of control due to incoming venues, proper storageability factors of the residual ammunition leftover after the range.
You just can't order up any ol kind of 5.56- 223 ammunition either, soldier's careers depend on it, lives depend on it as well. If it doesn't shoot as well as stringent military ammunition that has been tested then many factors turn it into a can of worms.
That potential E-4 cannot make E-5 because his promotion points won't be high enough to make the cut. That soldier win't be trained properly to shoot out to 300 meters.

ID_shooting
September 11, 2007, 07:21 AM
Things may have drasticly changed since I was in, but one of my funtions as Armorer was to req ammo. When we did our bi-annual qual all I had to do was request a 4 man detail from the platoon sergeants, grab a 5-ton and drive to the ASP. I had a nice signature card on file with my commander's authority and sign for what I thought we needed (I had a formula, X# of troops = X# of rounds.) Simple as that. Our budget was set so that we had funds for shooting twice a year and this was in a REMF transportation company, albeit BRO, still a REMF unit.

No "ammo officers" no "ammo NCOIC" just one lowly E4 CPL doing his job.

Somthing smells fishy to me...

trueblue1776
September 11, 2007, 08:23 AM
Impossible, how could they source civilian ammunition?

Materials of urgent need are acquired the fastest way possible. I can't help but notice the "RET" in your handle, it is entirely possible that things change.

TexasRifleman
September 11, 2007, 08:56 AM
Wow!! Supply can be screwed up? That could never happen :)

From the "How to Be A Supply Officer Home Study Course" manual....

Supply Officer: Walk from bedroom to bedroom with magical bottomless cup of coffee in hand. Skillfully bring fellow housemates' misfortunes to the forefront to steer conversation away from the fact that they are forced to use saran wrap as underwear while waiting for the standard 3 week laundry turnaround period to expire

and of course the famous Skipjack toilet paper episode. (true by the way)

USS SKIPJACK

June 11, 1942

From: Commanding Officer

To: Supply Officer, Navy Yard, Mare Island, California
Via: Commander Submarines, Southwest Pacific

Subject: Toilet Paper
Reference: (a) USS HOLLAND (5148) USS SKIPJACK req. 70-42 of 30 July 1941.
(b) SO NYMI Canceled invoice No. 272836

Enclosure: (1) Copy of cancelled Invoice
(2) Sample of material requested.

1. This vessel submitted a requisition for 150 rolls of toilet paper on July 30, 1941, to USS HOLLAND. The material was ordered by HOLLAND from the Supply Officer, Navy Yard, Mare Island, for delivery to USS SKIPJACK.
2. The Supply Officer, Navy Yard, Mare Island, on November 26, 1941, cancelled Mare Island Invoice No. 272836 with the stamped notation "Cancelled---cannot identify." This cancelled invoice was received by SKIPJACK on June 10, 1942.
3. During the 11 months elapsing from the time of ordering the toilet paper and the present date, the SKIPJACK personnel, despite their best efforts to await delivery of subject material, have been unable to wait on numerous occasions, and the situation is now quite acute, especially during depth charge attack by the "back-stabbers."
4. Enclosure (2) is a sample of the desired material provided for the information of the Supply Officer, Navy Yard, Mare Island. The Commanding Officer, USS SKIPJACK cannot help but wonder what is being used in Mare Island in place of this unidentifiable material, once well known to this command.
5. SKIPJACK personnel during this period have become accustomed to use of "ersatz," i.e., the vast amount of incoming non-essential paper work, and in so doing feel that the wish of the Bureau of Ships for the reduction of paper work is being complied with, thus effectively killing two birds with one stone.
6. It is believed by this command that the stamped notation "cannot identify" was possible error, and that this is simply a case of shortage of strategic war material, the SKIPJACK probably being low on the priority list.
7. In order to cooperate in our war effort at a small local sacrifice, the SKIPJACK desires no further action be taken until the end of the current war, which has created a situation aptly described as "war is hell."
J.W. Coe

entropy
September 11, 2007, 04:52 PM
Things may have drasticly changed since I was in, but one of my funtions as Armorer was to req ammo. When we did our bi-annual qual all I had to do was request a 4 man detail from the platoon sergeants, grab a 5-ton and drive to the ASP. I had a nice signature card on file with my commander's authority and sign for what I thought we needed (I had a formula, X# of troops = X# of rounds.) Simple as that. Our budget was set so that we had funds for shooting twice a year and this was in a REMF transportation company, albeit BRO, still a REMF unit.

No "ammo officers" no "ammo NCOIC" just one lowly E4 CPL doing his job.

Somthing smells fishy to me...

+1. ID_shooting! I got stuck with it too, and danged if I didn't happen to order a few extra thousand rounds each time so I got my 'trigger time' in after everyone else qual'd.

Jeff White
September 11, 2007, 07:35 PM
ID_shooting said;

Things may have drasticly changed since I was in, but one of my funtions as Armorer was to req ammo. When we did our bi-annual qual all I had to do was request a 4 man detail from the platoon sergeants, grab a 5-ton and drive to the ASP. I had a nice signature card on file with my commander's authority and sign for what I thought we needed (I had a formula, X# of troops = X# of rounds.) Simple as that. Our budget was set so that we had funds for shooting twice a year and this was in a REMF transportation company, albeit BRO, still a REMF unit.

No "ammo officers" no "ammo NCOIC" just one lowly E4 CPL doing his job.

Somthing smells fishy to me...

entropy said;
+1. ID_shooting! I got stuck with it too, and danged if I didn't happen to order a few extra thousand rounds each time so I got my 'trigger time' in after everyone else qual'd.

How long ago did you guys serve? I can't remember the training ammunition system ever working that way in the Army and I served from 6 Dec 74 thru 1 Nov 03. From 1983 on, ammunition management was part of my job as a Readiness/Training NCO.

The Army publishes a standards document for weapons training. It's known as STRAC (don't ask me what the acronym stands for, it's not coming to me at the moment). This document sets out exactly how many rounds each soldier is authorized for each type of training event. It's also MOS specific. In other words a rifleman assigned to a rifle or scout squad will have more qualification requirements and hence more ammo, then say a truck driver. The STRAC tells the commander what training events he has to do to qualify his soldiers to the Army standard.

The commander takes the STRAC, the doctrinal publications for his unit and sits down and plans his training for the next two years. When he decides when and where he's going to conduct his training, the plan goes up the chain of command for approval. The higher commanders, who in most cases own the resources such as fuel, ammunition etc. approve the plan and agree to resource it, or tell the subordinate commander to make changes in it.

Once the plan is approved, the operations side of the house turns in a forecast of ammunition requirements and the locations where the ammunition will be used. Then the process goes to the logistics side of the house and they actually order the ammunition on a DA Form 581. A copy of the DA581 goes to the supporting ASP (ammunition supply point) for the location where the training will be conducted. The ASP then sets the ammunition aside or physically has it transferred from whatever location it's at to the ASP that will support the training. Then, when it's time to conduct the training, someone from the unit goes to the ASP and actually draws the ammo and transports it to the range.

Sometimes there are snafus. 5.56 linked was in short supply for almost the entire time the M249 was in service. I don't know how many times I was issued ammo on stripper clips or in cardboard boxes and had to conduct SAW qualification using magazines.

A good ammunition manager at unit level kept in close contact with the ammunition manager at whatever level actually owned the ammo. It seemed like there were always units that didn't use all of their allocated ammo, and it was often possible to get the surplus reallocated to your unit. Then you can get your soldiers some extra trigger time.

Since in most cases a unit doesn't own it's ammunition, the higher headquarters does, training events can be changed because the higher level commander may have an unexpected higher priority training event that causes him to reallocate one unit's ammunition to another. The guy in the unit who's coming to drill is probably only going to know that they have no ammo when he comes to drill, not why there is no ammo.

All soldiers must be qualified with their individual weapons before overseas deployment. The unit will shoot before they go.

As for civilian ammo, I've seen it once. When the M9 was adopted the Army stopped procuring .45 ammo. As it ran out, contracting officers at levels way above the company level bought commercial .45 ball for qualification requirements. The commercial ammo was issued from the ASP just like all the other ammo.

HTH

Jeff

entropy
September 11, 2007, 09:57 PM
I was in 86-90,7thID(L). Yes, there was an Ammo OIC, and NCOIC, but it rountinely got dumped on me. Sure, I could have made them do it themselves simply by deliberately f'ing it up, but stuff rolls downhill......

The S2/3 office would let me know when there was a range set up, and I'd order the ammo. Working in Bn got me a lot of extra range time,as I usually went with to the ranges, in the case of one Company, the CO insisted I went with, as his Armorer screwed up some of their 60's by putting the gas pistons in bass-ackward-I happened to be there, and fixed them post haste so his men could qualify. I got to fire up the excess ammo as usual, as well as a Letter of Recommendation. :cool::evil:

Titan6
September 12, 2007, 12:45 AM
Jeff how do you remember all that four years later? :D ahh Never mind....

Anyway somebody likely messed up. I can assure you there is absolutely no ammo shortage here. I am shooting so much I am actually starting to get tired of it :gasp: ...

U.S.SFC_RET
September 14, 2007, 06:52 AM
trueblue1776quoted:Materials of urgent need are acquired the fastest way possible. I can't help but notice the "RET" in your handle, it is entirely possible that things change
I retired in 2005. That isn't too long ago. I never seen civilian ammunition on the range.

ID_shooting
September 14, 2007, 08:14 AM
Jeff, I got out in 96. I was the Armorer while stationed at Ft Riley, KS, Aco 701 MSB. Sure, our training NCO and Commander setup the training schedules and forcasted ammo needs, but we could draw anytime.

I remember one field problem, we were only supposed to support a combat brigade not take part in the training. This had been planned for months ahead of time.

We got a new DISCOM commander who came fresh from a line command. He didn't want anyone in the field without full Battle Rattle. Top called me in told me we needed a couple cases of blanks for the M2s and M16s. I grabbed a fresh req (I forget the DD or DA #) and drove down to the ASP. Just signed for what we needed.

Granted most of the time we knew well in advance what ammo we needed, but maybe BRO was different. We could draw any amount, any time.

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