How is something like this not considered a firearm?


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jefnvk
September 8, 2007, 11:45 AM
http://www.avurt.com/default.aspx?skinid=1 (there is a promo video on the first page, turn your volume down!)

How is this not viewed as a firearm. Is it simply because it is gas operated? It is basically a pistol that only fires less than lethal rounds for self defense. Even if it isn't viewed as a firearm, how would it be viewed if you were caught with such a device?

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GunTech
September 8, 2007, 11:49 AM
Firearm - A rifle, shotgun or handgun using gunpowder as a propellant. By federal definition, under the 1968 Gun Control Act, antiques are excepted.

bender
September 8, 2007, 11:56 AM
looks pretty cool, but it's big... I don't see women taking up all their purse space with one.

joab
September 8, 2007, 12:03 PM
Interesting concept but at $300 it's too expensive and it takes too long to get into action

If you notice in the reenactments they never fully show the process

jefnvk
September 8, 2007, 12:07 PM
OK, so basically it is an airgun, not falling under any firearm laws.

unrealtrip
September 8, 2007, 12:08 PM
As already mentioned it doesn't use gunpowder so technically not a firearm. It's kinda phaser / quake gun looking though isn't it?

NeoSpud
September 8, 2007, 12:10 PM
It isn't a firearm any more than an airsoft or paintball gun. I imagine if a police officer found you had one, there wouldn't be any more of a stir than if you had a taser or stungun. Actually, probably less, as I bet very few people would even recognize it.

cnorman18
September 8, 2007, 12:11 PM
a "firearm", by definition, launches projectiles powered by gunpowder. Anything that launches projectiles, of whatever kind, powered by compressed gas or air is an "airgun". Since there's no gunpowder in this thing, it's not a "firearm".

If this thing were a firearm, then so is a paintball gun and your kid's pellet gun.

ilcylic
September 8, 2007, 12:30 PM
It's cute, but for the price, I think I'd stick with a K frame .38 Spl.

I wonder if the pellets are standard paintball gun sized? Splatmasters can be had for $20.

kurtmax
September 8, 2007, 12:48 PM
My question is: How does this thing disrupt anybody without hitting them in the face. I mean, I'm sure even if it hit you in the leg some powder might get in your eyes.... but still.

Plus... 5 shots? A real gun that size would probably hold 50.

Flak_Jakett
September 8, 2007, 12:55 PM
What the heck are they going to come up with next. The thing looks like a toy I would buy my kid. I can see the baddie laughing histerically when he saw that thing, until he got hit with it I suppose.

It doesn't have the potential to kill like firearms do.

Guess I'll be sticking with my .45 then.

Zoogster
September 8, 2007, 12:58 PM
It is basicly a paintball gun much like the police pepper ball launchers using irritant filled balls. Not at all effective against someone determined and one would be better to stick with pepper spray for the niche this fills.

The longer range advantage this might provide is negated by the fact that shooting someone in most situations at a distance with something that warrants non lethal force is just not practical. For someone to be posing a risk to you that warrants non lethal force they are going to be close.

Anything a danger to you from a distance tends to warrant lethal force, like someone with a projectile weapon or closing with another weapon like a knife etc. Outside of police use there is not many non lethal shots from a distance.
Up close pepper spray needs less precision and will be more effective.

As far as laws, any gun or something people could reasonably believe is a gun used in a crime is punished the same as if it was a firearm many places. If one was to use that in a way which was innappropriate they could be punished the same as if they used either a firearm if threatening with it, or pepperspray if they are goofing around with it. Unlawful use of sprays, tasers, stunguns etc is a serious crime most places. So goofing around with this thing would get you into serious trouble, and for self defense it is rather worthless.

So why would you want it?

Bazooka Joe71
September 8, 2007, 01:00 PM
Don't think I'll be taking it to a gunfight anytime soon.:rolleyes:

M249MachineGun
September 8, 2007, 01:23 PM
That's ridiculous. Violent criminals deserve to face real, deadly bullets.

Car Knocker
September 8, 2007, 01:39 PM
The definition of "firearm" is quite flexible and may vary depending on who's doing the defining. While the federal government may define a firearm as:

The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

18 USC 921(a)(3)

other governmental units may legally define it more restictively, such as those cities that use the term "expel a projectile by means of an expanding gas" to control or restrict pneumatic arms such as pellet guns, etc.

Please note that the federal definition cited above (GCA of 1968) makes no mention of "gunpowder".

Nolo
September 8, 2007, 01:56 PM
Ha! "Oh god, she's shooting baking powder at me! Run away, run away!"
I'm sorry, but if I'm such a lowlife as the commit a rape, I wouldn't run away from a flour-gun. Seriously, it's brightly-colored, too. That's not going to intimidate. It has a maximum range of forty feet. Which means it can only be relied upon for about 20 feet (always halve the range of something if you want the real reliable range). Can a perp run 20 feet before that "weapon" really gets into action? I bet he could. Once those twenty feet are up, you're toast.

walking arsenal
September 8, 2007, 02:53 PM
IIRC Minnesota considers air guns firearms as far as felons go.

lee n. field
September 8, 2007, 04:18 PM
Firearm - A rifle, shotgun or handgun using gunpowder as a propellant.


it is an airgun, not falling under any firearm laws.

Ill-i-noise considers (some) air rifles as firearms.

Hugo
September 8, 2007, 05:04 PM
At least it's another "less than lethal" tool for the toolbox. I'd carry a Pistol too with this. Is anyone publicly warning people about repeat criminals who have built up an immunity to pepper spray/things like this?

I think Quagmire did on one Family Guy episode when the UPS lady sprayed him with pepper spray when he answered the door naked. "Nice Try but I've built up an immunity!" ;)

jefnvk
September 8, 2007, 05:25 PM
Zoogster - I don't. Well, I think it would be fun to play with and see how effective it could be, but definitely dont want one for self defense.

Personally, I couldn't see carrying it in anything BUT a purse.

Flyboy
September 8, 2007, 05:30 PM
The Avurt IM-5 gun is a small, handheld unit that shoots up to five
(great for multiple attackers, as long as everybody stops at the first shot)
PAVA filled projectiles at attackers up to 40 feet away.
So...it shoots seasoning, and has a range of a bit over ten yards.
It's non-lethal, easy to use, and highly effective at disabling attackers before they get close enough to do you harm.
Teuller said 21 feet for a gun. This thing is large, and designed for purse (off-body) carry. At that size, she--and there's really not much of a male market here, given the size, and thus requirement for something like a purse--has to get it out of her purse under stress (likely fighting with everything else in her purse), unfold it, take aim, and fire. Anybody figure that 40 feet is enough?

Yeah, me neither.
It protects from greater distances than Mace ™ or aerosol pepper sprays, and it doesn't have the potential to kill the way firearms do.
This is a bug, not a feature.

Okay, fisking this one is getting tedious. Anybody else want to get the next paragraph?

Anteater1717
September 8, 2007, 06:03 PM
Neat idea but there is already better ways of going about it that are cheaper and use the same concept. What I would think would be better is on of these (http://www.tiberiusarms.com/), loaded with pepper balls. I shot one using paintballs it shot at around 280fps. It was pretty accurate plus you can reload it using magazines. It was also pretty small. It uses real paintballs which are .68 caliber. For cheap practice 500 for $15.00 as opposed to $40.00 for 25. Real pepper balls are easy to find in .68 caliber too. It’s also a semiautomatic and loads in an 8 round detachable magazine. But no pink finish:rolleyes:.

The links messed up look for the Tiberius 8

Kentak
September 8, 2007, 07:06 PM
It uses nitrogen cylinders for the gas propulsion. Why nitrogen rather than CO2? Maybe higher pressure, I'm guessing.

I see this as a self-defense option for locations that don't allow CCW or where it's too difficult to get, or for people who prefer a non-firearm SD option.

The advantage it seems to have over pepper spray is that you can engage an attacker at longer range, the bang and impact of the round may in and of itself give the attacker second thoughts or at least pause and gain time for the intended victim.

Also, I'm thinking the laser sight *might* (I don't know) be effective to disorient or temp blind the attacker in a dark environment. Their website doesn't say anything about that, but seems possible to me.

K

Flyboy
September 8, 2007, 07:08 PM
But no pink finish
So? Say it with Krylon!

4v50 Gary
September 8, 2007, 07:16 PM
I wonder if it (or variation thereof) is going to show up at Police conventions as a non-lethal force gadget?

Kentak
September 8, 2007, 07:18 PM
That's ridiculous. Violent criminals deserve to face real, deadly bullets.

Why is it ridiculous? Not everyone can or will carry a firearm?

K

skeeter1
September 8, 2007, 07:21 PM
Ill-i-noise considers (some) air rifles as firearms.


Well then, I guess I might be doubly screwed. One of my air rifles has a 14.5" barrel which is legal if it's considered a non-firearm. However, if it is considered a firearm, then it's also illegal as far as NFA law is concerned. So, which is it?

DMK
September 8, 2007, 07:33 PM
Interesting. I wonder if something like this could be carried in a school, government office or some other place that prohibits firearms?

jungleroy
September 8, 2007, 07:33 PM
Where I live here in Oregon my town considers bb-guns and air rifles as firearms too. Gone are the days of sitting in the back yard and taking the Starling population down.
I do find that gas powered pop gun interesting but I would have no use for one myself.

lee n. field
September 8, 2007, 07:40 PM
It uses nitrogen cylinders for the gas propulsion. Why nitrogen rather than CO2?

The little CO2 cylinders loose pressure badly in the cold. (I read it on the Internet, anyway, so it must be true :rolleyes:.) How does nitrogen behave?

mp510
September 8, 2007, 08:03 PM
Even if it isn't viewed as a firearm, how would it be viewed if you were caught with such a device? It depends on what the legality is of carrying that sort of weapon in your jurisdiction. In CT, I presume you would be charged with carrying a dangerous weapon.

NeoSpud
September 8, 2007, 08:16 PM
The little CO2 cylinders loose pressure badly in the cold. (I read it on the Internet, anyway, so it must be true .) How does nitrogen behave?

CO2 does tend to freeze up, but with those 12g cylinders it isn't as big a problem.

I bet they use N2 because it stays in gaseous form at room temp beyond 3000psi, unlike the 800psi of CO2. Higher pressure in a small cartridge = better. And yes, because it doesn't have to change from a liquid to gas, it can't freeze up.

That's how I understand it. Then again, all my knowledge about this stuff comes from experience playing airsoft/paintball and building pneumatic cannons, not from a physics textbook. I'm sure I didn't explain it correctly [:p]

CZ223
September 8, 2007, 08:49 PM
Does anyone else think it looks like a dust buster?:D

NeoSpud
September 8, 2007, 09:12 PM
I think it looks more like a Nerf gun.

I prefer my sharpie-customized Maverick though...;):D

The Viking
September 8, 2007, 09:52 PM
Would definetly be classified as a firearm on this side of the Atlantic ocean, because it's a weapon that fires an irritant - a firearm according to Swedish law :(. Damn I hate this country sometimes.

Jim K
September 8, 2007, 10:19 PM
You guys are thinking mostly of firearms laws. But for most legal purposes, the term "firearm" is not used, the term "weapon" is. Most of those laws use the wording "deadly or dangerous weapon", a knife, a blackjack, or something like a slingshot is considered a weapon for carrying, armed robbery, assault, and the like even if it is not a firearm and can be proven not to be lethal. I suspect anyone using the gun against another person would have the burden of proving that the gun is not and cannot be lethal.

(A fellow who tried to stick up a bank by brandishing a snake (!) was convicted of armed robbery and assault with a deadly weapon even though he claimed the snake was not poisonous.)

Jim

lamazza
September 8, 2007, 10:30 PM
Way too impractical and unwieldly

kungfuhippie
September 8, 2007, 10:36 PM
So can I take the paint ball gun with pepper balls (the one that shoots real paint balls and looks closer to a real pistol) on my college campus since I can't ccw there?

Warren
September 8, 2007, 10:36 PM
It looks like a Ronco Pocket Fisherman.

I'm sure there are areas in the US where even this will be prohibited. Which will, again, show just whose side the average politician is on.

ArfinGreebly
September 9, 2007, 12:10 AM
I wonder if it (or variation thereof) is going to show up at Police conventions as a non-lethal force gadget?
"Hey, Sarge, what's that on your belt? A hair dryer?"

Thinkin' they won't sell a lot in that demographic.

Mannix
September 9, 2007, 12:22 AM
Uh... why not just use OC? If I absolutely feel the need to shoot balls filled with an irritant at someone I'll get one that can work work double duty as a paint ball gun and buy a Tiberius 8 and some .68 caliber pepper balls. 8 shots per mag and I can carry an extra. Plus practice ammo would only be like $70 for 2000(including cartridges).

NeoSpud
September 9, 2007, 12:50 AM
So can I take the paint ball gun with pepper balls (the one that shoots real paint balls and looks closer to a real pistol) on my college campus since I can't ccw there?
Assuming your college doesn't prohibit paintball (mine does), I suppose, though they could still give you trouble if they feel like it... Kinda like how open carrying legally can get you lots of unwanted attention which in turn can loosely justify to a cop that you're causing a public disturbance. It's BS, but that's how it goes.

Geronimo45
September 9, 2007, 12:54 AM
One of my air rifles has a 14.5" barrel which is legal if it's considered a non-firearm. However, if it is considered a firearm, then it's also illegal as far as NFA law is concerned. So, which is it?
The Feds say that an airgun is not a firearm, therefore the (Federal) NFA barrel length business does not apply. Now, if your state considers your airgun a firearm, and has an SBR defined, then you may be in trouble.

The gun is not a firearm 'cause there ain't no fire. :D

thexrayboy
September 9, 2007, 06:36 PM
Just another overwrought solution looking for a problem to solve. The problem they are trying to market this device as a solution for has numerous other solutions that exist which are better, cheaper and more effective. Waste of money.

Novus Collectus
September 9, 2007, 07:14 PM
As I understand it, any non-"antique" gun designed to use any explosive at all is a firearm be it explosive gasses, liquids, solids or powders. This is why some spud guns may be considered firearms even though they just use flammable gasses and vapors and not powders.

A gun using just pressured gas (that does not ignite) is not a firearm according to the feds. The origional Taser used a deflagrating compound to expell the electrical leads and the compund was the same as used in autombile airbags. Becuase the substance burned, the origional Tasers were declared firearms. Since the late 70s Tasers were sold using compressed gas instead to propel the leads and are not "firearms" according to the feds.

MachIVshooter
September 9, 2007, 07:31 PM
Something that I think is being overlooked here; Just because it isn't a firearm does not mean that a CCW is not required to carry it. A cap and ball revolver is not considered a firearm either, bt try packing one without a permit. Still falls into other dangerous/deadly weapons categories.

Besides which, most assaults and the like occur at contact distance. So close in, the powder that thing uses is going to affect the defender as well as the assailant. No thanks.

thorn726
September 9, 2007, 07:42 PM
i think in stupid CA some types of projectile weapons can be considered firearms, not sure exactly
but that thing is pretty cool for the firearm-afraid, and for the types of idiots i have problems with that thing would be perfect!!

the other advantage to less than lethal is you can probably get away with using it for less than lethal threats

but i am in very good health, and consider a disable/so i can run
option very effective for the gun less attacker.

for the 75 year old, or out of shape person, this thing is kinda stupid

JKimball
September 9, 2007, 07:53 PM
I wonder if it (or variation thereof) is going to show up at Police conventions as a non-lethal force gadget?


I think Police already have them in use. I saw something on TV about it once. The cop unloaded on a bad guy. When they had him subdued they lifted up his shirt and his chest was covered with some nasty welts.

Check out this site:
http://www.pepperball.com/

Their version looks a lot like a paintball gun with a regular hopper and everything. They have a video about it too. Looks like it would actually be pretty useful for riot control or even one guy on a SWAT team to have it. Don't know about concealed carry though.

alucard0822
September 9, 2007, 08:22 PM
paintball=.68cal, this thing is .50cal. You didn't think they wouldn't use proprietary balls did you?

Most of the states where this thing is legal, CCW is too, so I don't really see much use. The police have somewhat different needs, they cant simply run away, or avoid trouble. A private citizen shoots only under immediate danger to their life, or to the lives of others in some places, and in that case It would seem you want the best manstopper that you can proficiently use. With current technology, the most versatile and effective type of weapon is a firearm. There is a small place for irritants and non-lethal weapons, but they are more limited either in their effectiveness, range, or capacity.

This thing would seem to have poor stopping ability, low capacity, too big to easily conceal, and probably is not very reliable (leaking gas seals, or dead batteries)

Stevie-Ray
September 9, 2007, 09:11 PM
If this thing were a firearm, then so is a paintball gun and your kid's pellet gun.That's true in Michigan, except for the paintball gun. Pellet pistols, and worse, even the lowly BB pistols need permits to purchase and registration after purchase. So far I haven't bought anymore than what I had as a kid because I think it's totally ridiculous. And I could use new ones to handle the pest problems around here.

kd7nqb
September 10, 2007, 03:26 AM
very much not a firearm. At 300 dollars I will take a P3AT any day.

annielulu
September 10, 2007, 05:22 AM
I'll stick to a 9mm JHP anyday.

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