Guy waves gun around at work


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Guitargod1985
September 8, 2007, 10:15 PM
I went into work Thursday and found out that something pretty scary happened on my day off (Wednesday).

This guy who works with me found out that his wife (who works with me as well) was having an affair with someone else at work. So this crazy guy decides to bring a pistol into the building and start waving it around at his wife on the second floor. Luckily, someone spotted him in the parking lot placing the pistol in the small of his back and that person called the police. From what I heard, the guy just wanted to "scare" his wife, so he walked back outside after waving the gun. Then he left. No word yet on whether he was caught/arrested whatever, but obviously he has been fired.

All of this further illustrates that despite my company's strict "no weapons" policy, anyone can physically bring a gun in to the building if they want to. In my state it is lawful to carry in a place that prohibits weapons as long as it is not a prohibited place under state or federal law. If you are "made" and asked to leave but refuse, THEN you can be arrested on trespassing charges. I carry to work every day and some people may believe this to be wrong/irresponsible or whatever, but this incident has done nothing more than reassure me that I am indeed making the proper decision to carry at work. This thing could have gone a whole lot different and a lot of people may have been hurt by this whacko. Should this sort of thing happen again, while I am at work, I will not be caught unprepared.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience, possibly while they were present? How did this shape your attitude toward concealed carry? Has your attitude changed or is it the same? Just generally curious, I suppose.

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General Geoff
September 8, 2007, 10:18 PM
Imagine what could have gone down had you been there.

Guitargod1985
September 8, 2007, 10:26 PM
I wouldn't have drawn unless he pointed it at me or had already shot someone in my presence

Hoppy590
September 8, 2007, 11:23 PM
maybe wait a few weeks, till everyones settled and start to see if your coworkers and boss change thier attitude about guns. remeber, an anti is only an anti until they get mugged/raped. maybe your boss will see that no little phrase in the employe handbook could stop a jelous lover from killing a lot of people. but one or two armed employees could

Bilt4Comfort
September 8, 2007, 11:33 PM
I wouldn't have drawn unless he pointed it at me or had already shot someone in my presence

Waving a gun around in a fit of rage would have been enough for me, had I been a witness to this behavior, to believe lives were in danger. I'm not waiting for someone to point their weapon at me before I draw mine.

GlowinPontiac
September 8, 2007, 11:49 PM
closest i came to this was having another employee find a .40cal pistol on the mens room floor. from what the police told us someone dropped it in one of the stalls and left. most likey they said it was someone with a pistol permit.

armedandsafe
September 8, 2007, 11:49 PM
I had a 6 month contract with a company with a "no guns" policy. One day, the manager of the department I worked in stuck his head in my office and told me I was needed in the parking lot because one of the assembly-line ladies' ex-was in the parking lot making threats. Now I'm a skinny old fart and am not one normally called to a fist fight, so I just looked at him with raised eyebrows. He then said "You do have it with you, don't you?" I just nodded and pulled "it" out of the (locked) bottom drawer of my desk and headed out with "it" in the IWB holster.

To answer the certain-to-be-asked question :neener:, I had recently trained that manager on some points of CCW and self defense, but had never mentioned to him (nor anybody else) that I carried to work.

Pops

The Unknown User
September 8, 2007, 11:53 PM
That's scary. I'm glad nobody got hurt.

ruger_martin_mastermag
September 8, 2007, 11:59 PM
I would have pulled my gun right then and there. If you wait you can get shot. I dont want you or the girl to get shoot. Good thing everyone is safe

O C
September 9, 2007, 12:18 AM
Guy shows up and is seen putting a gun in his pants, someone calls the cops, ( tick,tock,tick,tock) Guy walks into workplace, (tick,tock ) waves gun around ( tick,tock ) walks back out (tick,tock ) gets into his car (tick,tock,tick,tock ) drives away. ( tick,tock,tick,tock,tick,tock). Cops nowhere to be seen. How many rounds could have been fired in that time? At Va Tech 32 people died in that time. and you ask me why I carry?

bsf
September 9, 2007, 01:18 AM
I am glad no one was hurt.

I have never worked for an employer that allowed "weapons" on company property. If some "nutcase" starts waving a gun around at work i am "exiting stage right"; taking the rest of the day off; and possibly searching for new employment.

Mr White
September 9, 2007, 07:15 AM
If it is against your company policy to carry there, you might want to not carry there for awhile until this blows over. Does ANYONE you work with know you carry? Does your company/building hae security guards? Things to think about.

Ala Dan
September 9, 2007, 07:34 AM
No sir, thank the Good Lord I haven't had to face that kind'a danger
from one of these type idiots yet~! IMHO, our worldly situation has gotten
out of hand; even here in the greatest country on the planet. Someone like
this idiot gets these ideas in their mind, and attempts to carry out these
terroristic threats. If you carry at work my friend, my advice would be
too be discreet, and only use your weapon to end the carnage that may
be about to happen.;):D

Heck if his wife is having an affair with another employee, there isn't much
he can do too stop it. As they say, "there are more fish in the sea:; it may
take time too fine one; but they are out there. I would just split the scene,
and find a decent girl that wanted to be with me; and never look back~!

Jerry Morris
September 9, 2007, 07:48 AM
I carry to work every day and some people may believe this to be wrong/irresponsible or whatever, but this incident has done nothing more than reassure me that I am indeed making the proper decision to carry at work.

I will make no judgment call on your practice, it is your call. As long as you are aware of the repercussions of being caught, or having to use "it".

My workplace has the same rule. When this rule seems too dangerous, then it is time to find another job. My resume is too valuable to tarnish with a disciplinary discharge. The possible legal punishments are too severe. A double whammy in my viewpoint.

Jerry

Rustynuts
September 9, 2007, 09:00 AM
My resume is too valuable to tarnish with a disciplinary discharge. The possible legal punishments are too severe.

I can see the resume thing (even though companies probably would be barred from disclosing this fact to potential employers). Most companies these days only verify dates of employment and position. Anything else could be grounds for lawsuits.

As for the legal issues, there shouldn't be any! If you are legal, you are legal period. Depends on the State I guess, but all a private business should be able to do is ask you to leave. Only then if you don't can it be deemed trespassing with a weapon.

Jerry Morris
September 9, 2007, 10:14 AM
I can see the resume thing (even though companies probably would be barred from disclosing this fact to potential employers). Most companies these days only verify dates of employment and position. Anything else could be grounds for lawsuits.

Here in Ohio, many employers have a disclaimer on their applications. Lying on the application is grounds for termination. You agree to the terms at signing. One at my place of work got terminated not too long ago.

As for the legal issues, there shouldn't be any! If you are legal, you are legal period. Depends on the State I guess, but all a private business should be able to do is ask you to leave. Only then if don't can it be deemed trespassing with a weapon.

Once again, in Ohio, we have that nasty "no weapons sticker". You will lose your license to carry concealed and possibly a criminal charge on top of that. If you do not have a license, it depends upon the employer and the Prosecutor. It could be state time.

Jerry

crankshop1000
September 9, 2007, 10:20 AM
You can always take the chance and carry, but if you are made, you will be fired. Better to go down fighting rather than die cowering beneath a desk. Your choice.

Blackbeard
September 9, 2007, 10:21 AM
Luckily, someone spotted him in the parking lot placing the pistol in the small of his back and that person called the police.

Gee, everyone at THR seems to get bent out of shape when someone calls the cops when they spot someone carrying. Now it's lucky that they did?

Guntalk
September 9, 2007, 10:23 AM
www.smartcarry.com for deep concealment.

alucard0822
September 9, 2007, 10:48 AM
There was a similar incident at my job a few years ago that didn't end peacefully. The husband shot and killed his wife at her desk, then could not find the other guy (mailroom clerk), and then killed himself, all before the police arrived. But being in good ol MD, where carry permits are not issued for personal protection, the company basically reiterated its no-weapons policy, and basically went as far to say the situation could have been avoided if the guy simply followed company policy:banghead:. After the VA tech deal, they one again sent out a page long statement of how the no-weapons policy must be strictly followed, with basically everything from pepperspray to pen knives listed as "prohibited weapons" that would result in immediate termination. I basically have to play the odds game with my life as far as firearms are concerned, and not carry. If I were in a free state where I could legally carry, and termination was the worst that could happen (not a felony w/ 5 yrs in prison) then I would carry, keeing in mind the rig would have to be as invisible as I could make it.

I am glad that there was no bloodshed guitargod, and that the situation was diffused.

Kimber1911_06238
September 9, 2007, 11:40 AM
breakups/cheating tend to make people do irrational things. For example, here in CT a few years ago, a guy shot his soon to be ex-wife, her lawyer, and himself in the Court parking garage before they were scheduled for divorce hearing/precedings, whatever they are called.

Glad it didn't go down like that at work.

Flak_Jakett
September 9, 2007, 12:05 PM
Gee, everyone at THR seems to get bent out of shape when someone calls the cops when they spot someone carrying. Now it's lucky that they did?

It's not that people don't think cops should be called. They always should be. The question is what are you going to do in the mean time?

In Oregon there is a statute that says that any public place that says "NO FIREARMS" does not apply to CCW carriers. When I go to school they have a no gun policy, but I carry anyway, and next to it I have a copy of that state law. I'm not sure how it works if a company policy is no gun and you sign a statement saying you'll follow company policy. Could be an unlawfull policy, or it could be you agreeing to not carry at work.

joab
September 9, 2007, 12:21 PM
With what is going on in Orlando these days I would have no problem calling the police if I see someone acting suspiciously with a gun.

I also, though, would not put myself in the line of fire to protect this woman's non existent virtue
I would have my gun out, but still hidden, in case he wasn't sure of just who she was cheating with and decided to make certain he got the right one

I have never been involved with something like this, but I have been asked a couple of times to hang around the office while the manager had to fire people that he was unsure of
Actually everyone was scared witless of one of these guys.
His strange behavior started after he found out he was getting divorced.
Police later found his wife's head in a dumpster
One of the detective magazines did a story on it

Spreadfire Arms
September 9, 2007, 12:51 PM
All of this further illustrates that despite my company's strict "no weapons" policy, anyone can physically bring a gun in to the building if they want to. In my state it is lawful to carry in a place that prohibits weapons as long as it is not a prohibited place under state or federal law. If you are "made" and asked to leave but refuse, THEN you can be arrested on trespassing charges. I carry to work every day and some people may believe this to be wrong/irresponsible or whatever, but this incident has done nothing more than reassure me that I am indeed making the proper decision to carry at work. This thing could have gone a whole lot different and a lot of people may have been hurt by this whacko. Should this sort of thing happen again, while I am at work, I will not be caught unprepared.


the only repercussion it seems, to your company's policy, is that the employee can be fired if he/she violates the company policy, as it is an administrative rule and not a law violation.

so, this company keeps the honest employees from carrying guns (lawfully) for fear of losing their job.

if you are ok with losing your job in using your firearm to defend yourself or others, more power to you!

i guess you can't work if you are dead, right?

Blackbeard
September 9, 2007, 01:00 PM
But being in good ol MD, where carry permits are not issued for personal protection, the company basically reiterated its no-weapons policy, and basically went as far to say the situation could have been avoided if the guy simply followed company policy.

This is where the company should be sued for failure to enforce their no-weapons policy. They can't fire a guy who doesn't work there.

txgho1911
September 9, 2007, 01:23 PM
It gets real hard to breath when you have been embalmed and buried.

thexrayboy
September 9, 2007, 06:24 PM
maybe wait a few weeks, till everyones settled and start to see if your coworkers and boss change thier attitude about guns. remeber, an anti is only an anti until they get mugged/raped. maybe your boss will see that no little phrase in the employe handbook could stop a jelous lover from killing a lot of people. but one or two armed employees could



This idea may, I repeat may, work in a small business owned by a single person or family. When presented with the evidence that formal employee policy prohibiting weapons is meaningless for those who are willng to commit capitol crimes they may reconsider. In a true corporate environment with a
CEO, board of directors, human resources dept. etc. this approach will have zero chance and will only serve to make you stand out in their minds as a "gun nut" deserving of further scrutiny or even direct action.

Many a company has been the scene of workplace shootings, all in violation of written "no weapons" policies. None of these business have shown any inclination to reconsider their victim disarmament policy.

Remember, in the corporate environment employees are not people. They are tools to use to create revenue. Policies governing the conduct of those tools is designed soley to protect the bottom line of the company and mitigate the chances of legal actions. PERIOD. The average employee is no more important to a CEO or board member than the chair they are sitting on or the PC they are typing on. Its all about loss prevention and protection from lawsuits.

Wheeler44
September 9, 2007, 08:15 PM
It's stories like this that make me glad I telecommute.

gezzer
September 9, 2007, 10:02 PM
most likey they said it was someone with a pistol permit.
Or a cop, especially one of RANK.

Guitargod1985
September 10, 2007, 03:02 AM
if you are ok with losing your job in using your firearm to defend yourself or others, more power to you!

Yes, I am more than okay with that. If I have to choose between a job and my life, it's a no-brainer.

Jerry Morris
September 10, 2007, 05:49 AM
Yes, I am more than okay with that. If I have to choose between a job and my life, it's a no-brainer.

I think we can all agree, if it is your life, a job, or a jail term would be preferable.

I still think, if this kind of thing is common, a more CCW friendly job is the thing to look for. The odds are high, you may lose the job and some jail may occur and your life is never threatened. This would be very likely at my place of employment.

But, you are an adult. It is up to you to make the decisions.

Jerry

1911Tuner
September 10, 2007, 06:52 AM
I wouldn't have drawn unless he pointed it at me or had already shot someone in my presence

And you'd have likely lost that fight...

joab
September 10, 2007, 09:38 AM
The odds are high, you may lose the job and some jail may occur and your life is never threatened.
This is Florida, jail time is generally not a danger
Instead of telling people that they should seek other employment perhaps you should rethink your state of residence

highfive
September 10, 2007, 10:02 AM
I can say I have seen this kind of behavior before... the thing is I'm in the military and this happened when I was in Iraq so you know everybody over there at least has one gun...at least. So one day after a hard day work.....ok ok we got attacked, we repelled and nobody was hurt.....after all this one of the guys began acting all crazy (key word here acting) He even fire a few rounds so we hit him hard and we stop the guy. So after this he got sent back to the states....

After we came back we found out he got kicked out of the army because he wasn't crazy he just want it to get out of Iraq...for me he was only a coward....

Crazy behavior in a crazy place........I hate that place....just my 2

Jerry Morris
September 10, 2007, 12:10 PM
This is Florida, jail time is generally not a danger
Instead of telling people that they should seek other employment perhaps you should rethink your state of residence

This is an interesting concept. I should leave my state, when I can more easily change jobs and remedy the situation? I should sell my home, which is paid for, then move to another place and start over? It may come to pass, but not over some little thing like this issue. This is where I was born. This is where my roots are. 56 years kind of made it grow on me.

If you are inviting me to Florida, no thanks. I have been there, didn't like it.

Jerry

h0ss
September 10, 2007, 01:29 PM
I just recently (two weeks ago) started employment with a company that had a fatal shooting about 15 years ago. Even though it was 15 years ago, its a small town and it shook the place up, and they have had several "incidents" since then, not necessarily with a firearm, but a kid with a knife who stabbed someone a couple streets over jumped the fence, got in the building somehow and tried to hide, as well as other false alarms.

The place i work for is a high profile company, i wont say who it is, but everyone has heard of it. Naturally the company has a strict no weapons policy, as well as stating they can at any random time search your locker, vehicle while it is on their property, and any bag, backpack or whatever you have just short of searching your person. They stepped up security, all entrances locked, you need a card key to swipe in AND out of the building, security cameras at every entrance, and they even had our local police who trained with the LA SWAT team to come to the facility and come up with an armed intruder plan where we go into lockdown and the police come in with a small team and clear every room in the building, which they had to do once for a false alarm just over a month ago.

So, even though i would love to CCW, there is no chance i would risk bringing a CCW into the building or even leaving one in my car, because i've been trying to get into the job for awhile now and it is a very good company to work for, and they DO treat us like human beings, regardless of what you may think regarding their strict no weapons policy. I think they are just doing what most people instinctivly do, ban what they are afraid of, which is expected considering they have gone through a tragic incident before.

I do however, wish i could AT LEAST have my CCW in my car for when i go to and from work. Or sometimes i have to walk home and since i cant keep my gun at work, i cant bring it to begin with. BTW they ban ALL types of weapons at my job. They dont specify, they just say all weapons in the handbook, so they can deem what they see fit as a weapon. They are located in the middle of town though, and i have thought of maybe parking my car on the public street just off of their private property (parking lots) for 8 hours. That is the only way i know of to legally get around it at the moment. Wow i typed a lot. Sorry! :)

Shifty
September 10, 2007, 02:40 PM
rationally speaking, there isnt a whole lot of reason to orphan my kids or destroy our quality of life over some one elses problems.

so common sense would dictate if i'm proximal to the incident, gun gets ready, stays hidden. if i'm further removed, say a floor down or so, i leave.

would i feel bad if somebody gets shot, yea, probably.... but if you can feel bad that means you are still alive. and ultimately its the fault of the nutjob pulling the trigger, not me for not intervening.

but honestly, i'd probably gauge the situation from afar and intervene if i thought it was going to escalate. gun stays holstered till i shoot. no stupid hollywood drawing on the guy and trying to BS him.


tough call, maybe if i knew the persons involved i would be saying otherwise, who knows.

Invalid
September 10, 2007, 02:43 PM
www.smartcarry.com for deep concealment.

So next time he should buy one of these to better hide his gun? Before he goes in and terrorizes his workplace? Or should we buy one of those, so we can sneak weapons into a gun-free zone under the noses of officials, risking our job and ignoring the law?

ShooterMcGavin
September 10, 2007, 02:49 PM
maybe wait a few weeks, till everyones settled and start to see if your coworkers and boss change thier attitude about guns.
I really don't think that is likely. Imagine going to your boss, after a serious firearms scare which threatened the lives of many employees. Imagine saying to him/her "I would like your permission to carry a concealed handgun at work". To the boss, the handgun is exactly the problem (not the person holding it).

SSN Vet
September 10, 2007, 02:58 PM
my favorite spin on Forrest Gump's quote seams appropriate here.........

Concealed is as Concealed does!

alucard0822
September 10, 2007, 03:18 PM
So next time he should buy one of these to better hide his gun? Before he goes in and terrorizes his workplace?

i'm not exactly sure what you are getting at. If the purpose is to intimidate and terrorize, why would you need concealment outside of a pocket or something just to get in the door, it just makes more work to pull the gun and wave it around. I belive guntalk was suggesting a method to better conceal a DEFENSIVE weapon where legal, but possibly aggainst company policy. Most of us were fairly vocal how VA tech's policy of disarmament of law abiding, liscenced CCrs contributed to the scope of the tragedy, as opposed to the much less well known Appalacian School of Law shooting, where only two were killed, and the perp was stopped and aprehended by two armed students. Workplace shootings are not that common, but do happen, and if you seek to practice self preservation, I think that holster would be a good choice.

joab
September 10, 2007, 08:11 PM
If you are inviting me to Florida, no thanks. I have been there, didn't like it.No, we have enough people down here who want us to do things like they do up there

Just pointing out an inconsistency in what some people consider a good argument

Those that are not willing to change your life to accommodate your unfettered access to personal protection but expect others to.

Jerry Morris
September 10, 2007, 08:19 PM
Those that are not willing to change your life to accommodate your unfettered access to personal protection but expect others to.

Now, you are reaching for words I never said, son.

Jerry

Added: Is English your first (primary) language?

joab
September 10, 2007, 09:40 PM
Not reaching, and I'm not your damn son

Perhaps you did not mean to imply that Guitargod should change his employment if he feels the need to carry when you said
I still think, if this kind of thing is common, a more CCW friendly job is the thing to look for. The odds are high, you may lose the job and some jail may occur and your life is never threatened. This would be very likely at my place of employment.

But, you are an adult. It is up to you to make the decisions.
It is possible I misinterpreted

Guitargod1985
September 11, 2007, 12:39 AM
Regarding employment, I will indeed be changing jobs in December / January after I'm done with this semester of school. I'll be relocating to Saint Petersberg to attend college there, so there isn't much point in staying at a job 2+ hours away. And I do plan on finding an emplyer without a "no weapons" policy.

Invalid
September 11, 2007, 02:02 AM
i'm not exactly sure what you are getting at. If the purpose is to intimidate and terrorize, why would you need concealment outside of a pocket or something just to get in the door, it just makes more work to pull the gun and wave it around. I belive guntalk was suggesting a method to better conceal a DEFENSIVE weapon where legal, but possibly aggainst company policy. Most of us were fairly vocal how VA tech's policy of disarmament of law abiding, liscenced CCrs contributed to the scope of the tragedy, as opposed to the much less well known Appalacian School of Law shooting, where only two were killed, and the perp was stopped and aprehended by two armed students. Workplace shootings are not that common, but do happen, and if you seek to practice self preservation, I think that holster would be a good choice.

We're discussing two different things here- it's no point of contention on my part that he should be able to carry, and I completely agree that it ought to be allowed. However, they instead prohibit CC, thus making it an infraction to have one on the property. So, by smuggling a gun in with a space-age man-thong holster (;)) he's breaking the law. The rules apply to everyone, and no-guns policy should mean a staunch no-guns policy for the entire workplace populace, no exceptions.

Believe me, I'm aware of the lives a licensed concealed weapon can help save, but I can't advocate anyone bringing a firearm into a public area where it is explicitly banned, regardless of how you don't want to use it for the same reasons some psychotic sociopath does- nobody can be sure of that but you.

Then again, maybe he's talking about some manthong-holster tangent in the conversation and I'm just not on that particular topic. :)

Guitargod1985
September 11, 2007, 02:11 AM
Actually, in Florida I'm not LEGALLY prohibited from carrying at work. They can only legally prohibit it if they are a prohibited place as defined by state / federal law. So because I do not work at a post office, school, whatever, I'm actually not breaking any law.

If it were illegal, I wouldn't carry it, just as I leave my carry gun at the house when I go to class two days a week.

Invalid
September 11, 2007, 02:21 AM
Actually, in Florida I'm not LEGALLY prohibited from carrying at work. They can only legally prohibit it if they are a prohibited place as defined by state / federal law. So because I do not work at a post office, school, whatever, I'm actually not breaking any law.

If it were illegal, I wouldn't carry it, just as I leave my carry gun at the house when I go to class two days a week.

See, that's more logical. Sorry for any confusion :)

Jerry Morris
September 11, 2007, 07:44 AM
Not reaching, and I'm not your damn son

Temper, temper! The language is not THR. And you are reaching, reread what you posted and you might understand why I thought I was taking advantage of someone less than comfortable with the English language.

Perhaps you did not mean to imply that Guitargod should change his employment if he feels the need to carry when you said
Now, why would you have a problem with this? Did you read and understand all of it? It was a conditional statement. Even so, why do you have a problem with someone leaving a CCW unfriendly place???? And why do you not see and take of that note that last line in that post?

Let me tell you about myself. I am a plant closer. That is a development in the recent era. I have lots of company, many have been where I have been. Everyplace I have ever worked is no longer in business. I know a lot about jobs. I have taken lots of jobs. I know beyond doubt, if you keep your resume and public record clean, there is always a new job around the corner. Once your record is tarnished, you get set back.

Employers check you out today. They look at your legal records, even you credit records. Have you never seen this? Have you never signed under that paragraph that say you accept the "ROOLZ"?

Today I get paid a relatively lot of money, for very little work. I used to bust my tail working. Then when I was done busting my tail working, I'd go to another job delivering pizza in dark places. I know jobs! Now, I make good money on straight time and go home to be with my wife, whom I love very much. She hated to see me load that pistol and stick it in its holster, over a job delivering pizza.

Maybe you are still too young to know, tilting at windmills, when you are young, is fun, but it gets old too fast. I am a counter balance to some Young Thumpers here. I am trying to smooth things out for those who wish to listen. Avoid all the knots and bruises, because in a few years you will feel them again. A job, is a job.

This current thread is about merely another form of knot, or bruise. But one that can hurt for a long time. I have seen it too many times. I avoided my nasty lumps of this type and am trying to help others do the same.

If the incident described was common at my place of work,,,,, I WOULD LEAVE! Best job I ever had! BUT, I WOULD LEAVE! Worst case, I could wind up killing someone, or getting killed. Not so bad, I could get canned
and have to explain what I have been doing for ten years to prospective employers, if they have not already found out I got canned, a little worse, I could earn a criminal record.

Why is leaving such a distasteful thing to you?????? This is incomprehensible to me! It is only a job. Holy Cow, you wanted me to leave MY HOME! My Home holds all I possess and all of that is truly mine, not some bank.

If this does not clear the air for you, the task is beyond all hope.

Jerry

alucard0822
September 11, 2007, 09:25 AM
I belive guntalk was suggesting a method to better conceal a DEFENSIVE weapon where legal, but possibly aggainst company policy.

I thought this would have cleared it up, but thanks guitargod for the assist. I am not advocating breaking any laws, there ias a difference between company policy and law. For some, the risks involved with termination due to being "made" outweigh the benefits of carry, and the risks from criminal action. That is an entirely personal decision everyone would have to make, but I thought the holster guntech showed would be a solution for those willing to carry, but trading deployment speed for deep concealment due to EMPLOYMENT problems, some possibly for legal issues. More or less people who go postal tend not to be too concerned with concealment, more so about intimidation, and access to weapons/ammo.

joab
September 11, 2007, 09:32 AM
Holy Cow, you wanted me to leave MY HOME! Nice twist

Apparently in all your condescension you failed to read the many references to it not being illegal to carry at work here in Florida

I also have held many jobs
Some of them included the hiring and firing of employees and answering those reference calls from prospective employers of fired employees
I was only allowed to state that the employee had worked for us for the time period that he worked for us, anything more would have set the company up for a lawsuit
I know this for a fact because I helped two former employees at two different companies set up lawsuits for this very reason

You do not know as much as you would like to think you do

It does not take any reaching to see that you are advising to quit a job that does not allow CCW ,if you feel you need to carry, to avoid legal and resume problems even though it has been explained to you more than once by more than one poster that this is not an issue here

We really don't care how you do it up north

Guntalk
September 11, 2007, 10:27 AM
Basically, here are my thoughts.

I think one should obey the law.

I think one should consider following the restrictions placed by an employer. This consideration involves many things, from how it would affect you should you be fired, to how real the threat is (?), to how you would carry, to what measures are in place to discover your legal but employer-restricted firearm.

A person who has the option of moving should not live in an area which is not safe. It's just nuts to do so.

A person who has the option of changing jobs to an employer who does not require you to sacrifice your personal safety as a way of improving the company's bottom line is crazy to not change jobs, or careers.

Just personal opinion here, of course. Not easy choices, and I don't say they are.

A company which requires one to be unsafe is not a company worthy of loyalty.

As for breaking the law, I'm not going to do it, but civil disobedience has a long and honored history in this country. Each person must come to his or her own conclusion regarding that thorny situation.

Jerry Morris
September 11, 2007, 03:58 PM
It does not take any reaching to see that you are advising to quit a job that does not allow CCW ,if you feel you need to carry, to avoid legal and resume problems even though it has been explained to you more than once by more than one poster that this is not an issue here

Well, DUH!


I also have held many jobs
Some of them included the hiring and firing of employees and answering those reference calls from prospective employers of fired employees
I was only allowed to state that the employee had worked for us for the time period that he worked for us, anything more would have set the company up for a lawsuit
I know this for a fact because I helped two former employees at two different companies set up lawsuits for this very reason

I have done second interviews myself. I also know how things got said, without being said. I also know, no one EVER got sued for giving a raving,or even just a decently good recommendation. If true, that last line of this quote is something I would really, really not want any prospective employer to know. Communication skills show in job applications, applicant interviews and reviews. When I did reviews, I assessed all the issues. Credit, past employment, all of it. "He worked here, we have no further comment put one lower on the list than, We want HIM back!"


It does not take any reaching to see that you are advising to quit a job that does not allow CCW ,if you feel you need to carry, to avoid legal and resume problems even though it has been explained to you more than once by more than one poster that this is not an issue here
Myself, I have a problem with rule breakers. Rule Breakers accept the rules and then break them. This is not THR. It is dishonorable, it is the sign of a Liar (which I also looked for in my job interviews and reviews). It shows a willingness to not follow ones words of promise. If this is your way of Life, the discussion is better ended now.

I moved this line out of the statement. I misread your post. Consider this deleted.
*Again, your communications skills fail you. You ignore, or miss the conditional statements. I said if the danger factor requires!* my apology, if needed.



Jerry

Dr. Peter Venkman
September 11, 2007, 04:08 PM
Imagine what could have gone down had you been there.

230 Grains with a 13+1 against morons modifier.

Stay safe.

Jerry Morris
September 11, 2007, 05:11 PM
After studying this thread, it occurs that my tendencies toward denseness have been displayed. I offer my complete apology and an explanation.

It never occurred to me there was a simple answer, staring me right in the eyes. Correct me, if I am wrong. You took offense at my simple minded solution to this very complex issue. And in fact, there is nothing wrong with breaking your word and carrying a weapon against the rules of the workplace?

Why did you zero in on my stating there was a possible criminal penalty? This helped to confuse me, you devil, you. :)

That this violates my very conception of "The High Road" aided you. I will remember you.

This discussion is now over.

Jerry

joab
September 11, 2007, 08:10 PM
I have a problem with rule breakers. Rule Breakers accept the rules and then break them. This is not THR. It is dishonorable, it is the sign of a Liar (which I also looked for in my job interviews and reviews). It shows a willingness to not follow ones words of promise. If this is your way of Life, the discussion is better ended now.Thank you for clarifying my,er I mean, your point

1911Tuner
September 11, 2007, 08:23 PM
I have a problem with rule breakers.

So did King George...so he sent his garrisons to sieze all arms, powder, and shot from the locals because they were havin' a problem with his rules.

Rule Breakers accept the rules and then break them.

So did the founding fathers and a few others...so some of'em met the British garrison at Lexington Green, firing the shot heard 'round the world and the nation that we live in was so conceived.

Of course...they could have just blindly obeyed the rules...paid the taxes...given up their rifles...and 1600 would be tea time around here instead of Miller Time.

Scofflaws! *sniff*

Jerry Morris
September 11, 2007, 08:37 PM
So did King George...so he sent his garrisons to sieze all arms, powder, and shot from the locals because they were havin' a problem with his rules.

King George lost, point moot.


So did the founding fathers and a few others...so some of'em met the British garrison at Lexington Green, firing the shot heard 'round the world and the nation that we live in was so conceived.

And this applies to todays employment situation in what manner? You do not believe Honor is consistent with job seeking and holding?

When it comes time for me to do as my Forefathers did, this will be a consideration. Do not insult the Cause with equating it to common treacheries and lies about mere job conditions, from either side. If the job grates you, be man enough to find another!

Jerry

1911Tuner
September 11, 2007, 09:12 PM
Oh, I believe in honor. I'm a former Marine. Honor is important to me like you can't imagine.

But...

I guess if one or two of those kids at Va. Tech had been rule breakers, Cho wouldn't have been able to kill 32 of'em like shootin' fish in a barrel.

See...2A says that we the people...have the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't mention anything about "unless company policy forbids it."

Is your workplace safe? Any armed guards on the premesis who are willing to do battle with a crazed individual who is armed to the teeth...has already shot a few folks...and is actively lookin' for a few more to shoot? Yes? No?

Sorry, Jerry. This notion of blindly obeying rules is a totalitarian ideal. We must obey because "they" say so. It's led us this far into the nannystate mindset...and it'll take us further down that road. That has nearly destroyed the "rugged individualism" that this country was built on.

Can't buy into that, m'fren. When "policy" interferes with our God-given right to self-preservation...maybe the rules need to be broken. When a company literally tells me that it can't protect me, and refuses to allow me the means to protect myself...all (gun)agreements are null and void.

kbarrett
September 11, 2007, 09:15 PM
We had a fired employee show up once, and threaten to kill everyone involved in his firing ... basically a nut with anger management issues who kept getting hauled off from work by the cops for not making support payments.

Most of us believed he would follow through on his threats. I simply asked the CEO if I could keep a cased firearm under my desk the next day ... he said yes, and that he would probably do so as well.

The next day this idiot shows up in the lobby and starts waving a pistol around. Another employee snuck off and alerted everyone on the floor. The police were called ... I retrieved my Galil from its case, and met another employee who had also asked permission to bring his glock.

We heard him yelling at the receptionist, ordering her to ring the CEO ... which meant his back was to the door we were going to use. We confronted him, and ordered him to "Don't Move!". Then the CEO showed up at another door, and pointed his firearm at him, and issued the same order. Then a cop appeared in the opening elevator, pointing a shotgun at him and ordering him to drop the pistol ( response time of under 2 minutes ... I was impressed ).

At that point, he just kinda overloaded ... dropped the pistol, while saying "Oh **** me ..." and just closed his eyes.

We, not being visible from the elevator, just retreated and set our weapons down.

Another load of cops arrived via the other elevator, took the idjit into custody, and spent the rest of the afternoon lightly grilling us ...

The only arrestee that day was Mr. Anger Management ... who now wishes he only had divorce problems to deal with ....

HammerBite
September 11, 2007, 10:59 PM
As long as you are aware of the repercussions of being caught, or having to use "it".
I am aware that one of the repercussions of having to use "it" is staying alive. I can deal with that.
Gee, everyone at THR seems to get bent out of shape when someone calls the cops when they spot someone carrying. Now it's lucky that they did?
There is a difference between carrying and brandishing/threatening.

1911Tuner
September 12, 2007, 12:02 AM
Most of us believed he would follow through on his threats. I simply asked the CEO if I could keep a cased firearm under my desk the next day ... he said yes, and that he would probably do so as well.

And if he hadn't given permission...you might have obeyed his rule and you may not be alive to post this. The 32 dead kids at Va. Tech obeyed the rules, like good kids. I'm sure that was great comfort to their families...

kbarrett
September 12, 2007, 01:12 AM
If he hadn't given his permission, I had planned to take a week off, and suggest to my co-workers that they burn some PTO and do the same.

His building ... he gets to make the rules. I can either follow them, or just choose not to be there.

1911Tuner
September 12, 2007, 01:14 AM
If he hadn't given his permission, I had planned to take a week off, and suggest to my co-workers that they burn some PTO and do the same.

I hear ya, brother!

Logan5
September 12, 2007, 01:25 AM
The kids at VA tech had a lot less leverage with their administration; it's not comparable to a small/medium business where you supposedly have relationships between highly valued employees and professional managers and at least some notion of a team atmosphere.

Employers get pushed into this kind of situation by insurance companies. It happens because of unreasonable people.

I'm reminded of a former middle manager who would come to work and say things like "I'm already pissed because it's hot and I can't take my jacket off because I've got my gun on. Now let me tell you where you've been F***ing up this week!" and then proceed to berate someone. That's one of the nightmare liability scenarios driving this trend, and last time I checked there's no jerk shortage.

Employers need to have something in place to allow them to terminate people like that for cause, and not have to pay them unemployment if at all possible. Generally small and medium shops won't have anything like in house counsel, so it's $195 an hour at best to redraft the employee handbook, and they only want to have to do it once.

No attorney wants to draft boilerplate. It's very expensive, but it's an intern/associate job, and the end result isn't going to lower your MOD or be of any utility in court anyway. Insurance consultants can still bring a lot of pressure when it comes to implementing foolishness, and from an inside perspective, even if you're General Counsel and they've got a GED, you may not win with your own upper management.

Since I'm salaried, and the staff attorney, I have the luxury of rewriting my employer's company handbook, in excruciating detail, to lay out exactly how all good things shooting related get a pass and the order in which bad things get you closer and closer to the door.

I get to do it in I think 2 years when it's time to rewrite the handbook, and if I were in private practice and doing it right now for someone else, I'd quote it at 80 hours x $200 an hour; $16,000. That's probably below market, and I can't imagine anyone ever paying for it. That's one reason why you see the employee codes of conduct you do. It's cheap to prohibit everything, and expensive to allow some things and make others a firing offense.

Jerry Morris
September 12, 2007, 07:35 AM
Oh, I believe in honor. I'm a former Marine. Honor is important to me like you can't imagine.

I really like this part. It is a shame the rest of it conflicts with Honor.

The VA kids were not employees. This is government/political and as far outside of the topic as comparing workplaces to the Cause of our Founding Fathers.

When you took the job and signed on the dotted line, you gave your Word. If your Word is no good, what does that say about the rest of the individual? If the rules changed after that, why wait for another change? Is a job that hard to find for some reason?

No workplace is safe. Mine is reasonably so. I have already indicated what I would do if it became less so.

They can be, what you call "totalitarians" for a reason. They were willing to pay me a lot, to do no where near what the pay is worth. If/when the risks do outweigh the rewards, I am not restrained from walking out. It was part of the two way deal. Could you walk away from risks in the Marines? Now there is a little stricter outfit! Maybe even totalitarian? They have a rule, or two, I hear. And you could get a splinter, or an eye put out?

That last little paragraph, I sincerely hope I am reading you will not take the job in the first place and more power to you, in my mind!. The other way, I afraid would put you into an undesirable category.

I have been to the dark place. Where I work, is not that place.

Jerry

1911Tuner
September 12, 2007, 09:18 AM
The VA kids were not employees. This is government/political and as far outside of the topic as comparing workplaces to the Cause of our Founding Fathers.

They're still dead...and the rules didn't help them one bit.

It is a shame the rest of it conflicts with Honor.

And which part would that be? The part that says that I refuse to hand anybody the right to make a possibly life-altering...or life-ending decision for me? Sorry. No honor violated there. I don't ask permission to exercise my right to self-preservation, nor for the means with which to effect that end.

I have been to the dark place. Where I work, is not that place.


Yeah. Me too. The students at Virginia Tech didn't go to school in the "Dark Place" either...but one day it suddenly got very dark for 32 of'em. Same goes for the students at Columbine, and the Long Island Subway...and countless others who went to work or to school or to church or to the park and never made it home. There are people somewhere...right this minute...who have murder and mayhem on their minds. They don't take an ad in the paper notifying the public of their intent, and the rules won't stop them.

Or...do you believe that it would? Do you believe that a man who has made the decision to walk into a building and kill as many people as he can will stop when he sees the sign forbidding guns and say: "Wow! Guess I'd better not do this. I could get in real trouble."

Next time you go to work...look around. It may be your turn.

1911Tuner
September 12, 2007, 09:30 AM
I'm reminded of a former middle manager who would come to work and say things like "I'm already pissed because it's hot and I can't take my jacket off because I've got my gun on.

And that right...there...is the guy that causes me to break the rules and carry the gun. It may indeed be my day to die at his hands...but he'll have to prove it to me.

1911Tuner
September 12, 2007, 10:31 AM
Back! Had to go tend to the dogs and clean up a couple pistols that I shot cruddy early this mornin'...

Don't get me wrong Jerry. I'm plumb tickled that you're a such a stickler for followin' the rules. I wish everybody was like that. I truly do. Of course, there'd be a couple million cops out of work...not to mention all those attorneys for the prosecution and defense. Why...it wouldn't take more than one or two judges per county to handle anything else that required a judge to preside over. Jails and prisons could be turned into animal shelters or apartment complexes for the poor and homeless. The savings to the taxpayers would be incalculable.

The world would be a virtual Shangri-La where the lion would lie down with the lamb, and Morlock and Eloi could frolic together in the sunshine...if everybody would just follow all the rules. I can't wait! I'd probably leave this gun in the safe, because frankly...sometimes carryin' it gets to be a drag.

Jerry Morris
September 12, 2007, 02:08 PM
And which part would that be? The part that says that I refuse to hand anybody the right to make a possibly life-altering...or life-ending decision for me? Sorry. No honor violated there. I don't ask permission to exercise my right to self-preservation, nor for the means with which to effect that end.

And I find this, respectable, commendable even. If you do not sacrifice your Honor in the doing of it.

I am reading between the lines here, you may correct me, if I am wrong. If more people did as you, the employers may get the word and make some changes. When they start hearing, No, I will not work in your "Restricted Shooting Gallery", at least not unarmed. This on top of the odious mandatory drug testing would make finding decent employees much harder. And no I do not use drugs, for anyone else out there reading. At least not any non-prescribed drugs.

This same thing could be done for the VA type schools. Along with lobbying the government to prohibit the restriction. Tell your kids and other family to boycott those schools Tell them, we don't need your "Restricted Shooting Gallery". Pick one with better practices. And remember the ones who balk in the future.

You have your Ways & Means and I have mine. I have no problem with those who use Honorable W&Ms to fight the situation. I will even do more than vote with my feet and I am doing it now. But, I will not corrupt my Honor to do so. If, I promise you, the promise will be kept. If, I owe you, you will be paid. If you insult me with an offer I find repugnant, I will refuse. I will not lie, or fail to disclose, which is just another form of lie.

And, I always look around me, not just going to work. It is called situational awareness. A firearm is decent, but the weapon is between my ears. You would be surprised at the number of "innocent things" that lay about at my workplace.

And I agree with you, My Government Model does gets heavy after about 8 to 10 hours. And my Kimber Ultra Carry, while reliable, does not fill me with the same sense of "security". The barrel is too short and velocities not very much up there. But, I can carry it all day. I am negotiating with Colt's to have a LT Commander made up my way. If they will not, it will have to be an outside shop.

Jerry

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