Sheriff Joe's SWAT team burns house down in search for "cop killer" bullets


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Beachmaster
September 10, 2007, 02:46 AM
Its a pretty long article, but its a good read about how Sheriff Joe's goons burned down a guys house and killed his dog while searching for "cop killer bullets". They only found a legal 9mm and a shotgun.

Nothing like having your house burned down, your dog killed, and your neighbors car ran over by an armored SWAT vehicle because somebody either made a mistake, or has targeted you with a lie.


http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2004-08-05/news/dog-day-afternoon/full

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Don't Tread On Me
September 10, 2007, 02:48 AM
Welcome to Amerika and the rise of the police-state.



IBTL

Kilgor
September 10, 2007, 03:03 AM
Two sides to every story. I would like to hear both sides.

yesit'sloaded
September 10, 2007, 03:08 AM
Call me a tinfoiler but "Just after the tear gas canisters were shot, a fire erupted and destroyed a $250,000 home plus all the contents inside." sounds kinda like Waco. I wonder just how many times those tear gas rounds have started fires.

ArfinGreebly
September 10, 2007, 03:55 AM
You may have to wait a while to "hear both sides."

The journalist in this story is clearly very tilted.

The story drips with prejudice.

Tell you what, even though this story is THREE YEARS OLD, I'm going to leave this thread open for the time being, just to see if anyone can dig up "the rest of the story."

I presume there was a civil case, that there was compensation, and so on.

Should be plenty of material.

Looking forward to seeing it.

LightningJoe
September 10, 2007, 04:00 AM
Oh, sure. Be judgmental. Ever tried to arrest a guy with unpaid tickets? Well, until you have...

kd7nqb
September 10, 2007, 04:26 AM
1. 3 year old news story

2. Sheriff Joe is much admired in the 2nd Amm. Community from what I understand

3. What is this paper? Other local news WOULD have picked this up.

4. The author resigned in '06 http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2006-08-24/news/john-dougherty-resigns/

HUMONGO
September 10, 2007, 08:12 AM
Soon the men were lingering in front of his neighbor's house in the upscale gated subdivision of quarter-million-dollar homes.

I find this statement funny considering they followed up with ........

Delfino's 'hood wouldn't have fared much worse if it had been a gang of street thugs blasting away at the house, rather than Sheriff Joe Arpaio's inept and bumbling SWAT team.

$250,000 homes is not atypical in most parts of the country and I wouldn't consider one to be "upscale". That's like calling a trailer park and "estate".

30 cal slob
September 10, 2007, 08:58 AM
that was 3 years ago ... remember ... we had the housing boom recently.

might be a $500K house (on paper) now. :neener:

sterling180
September 10, 2007, 09:01 AM
"Cop Killer bullets",certainly makes the whole thing sound like Lethal Weapon2.Any high-velocity round is lethal against cops,duh.

wheelgunslinger
September 10, 2007, 10:06 AM
you can get a sheriff joe bobble head (http://www.doney.net/aroundaz/celebrity/arapaio_sheriffjoe.htm) now!

Here's a link to an article written from another angle.
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/29756

And, here's the text:
Charges urged in raid in which house burned
Gary Grado, Tribune
The Maricopa County Sheriff ’s Office is recommending that prosecutors charge an Ahwatukee Foothills man whose house burned down in a raid gone bad with nine counts of endangerment, according to a report released Thursday.

Each count is for each sheriff’s SWAT team member who entered the home in the 16800 block of South Cyan Court on July 23, and each count carries a penalty range of probation to two years in prison.

A dog burned to death and an armored personnel carrier crashed into a car during the incident.

Deputies went to the home to serve a warrant out of Las Vegas and search for assault rifles, armor-piercing ammunition and other guns taken in a burglary in that city.

Eric Kush, 26, who wasn’t the burglary suspect, refused to come out of the house when SWAT members ordered him to, so they shot tear gas through the windows.

The SWAT team made its way up the stairs of the twostory home to look for Kush and sprayed his aggressive pit bull with a fire extinguisher, said Sgt. Paul Chagolla, a sheriff’s spokesman.

Chagolla said the noise of an extinguisher and the plume of fire retardant scares dogs without harming them.

As SWAT members looked for Kush upstairs, they realized the house had caught fire.

A Phoenix fire investigator determined that a candle in the bedroom caused the fire when either Kush or the dog knocked it over during the incident, authorities said.

Deputies had arrested Kush’s roommate, Gabrial Golden, earlier at his probation officer’s office.

Golden was the burglary suspect wanted by Las Vegas authorities, and he gave deputies information on the layout of the house, occupants and weapons, authorities said.

The personnel carrier crashed when its engine shut off as a deputy moved it, reducing its braking capacity, Chagolla said.

The vehicle rolled down an incline and came to rest against the car, damaging its hood and front bumper.

___ end ___

Clearly, both articles are written from a different bias. Diametrically opposite, I'd say.
For anyone who would like to order the actual Maricopa County records for Kush's case/charges, a form can be found here:
http://www.maricopa.gov/Clk_board/DocumentRequest.aspx

Have at it, dogooders.

Rem700SD
September 10, 2007, 11:53 AM
search for assault rifles, armor-piercing ammunition and other guns taken in a burglary in that city.

Sounds like a justified warrent, according to the constitution.

General Geoff
September 10, 2007, 12:07 PM
I don't know if it's just me, but if I had tear gas thrown into my house, I'd pick up the damn canisters and throw them back out...

220_Swift
September 10, 2007, 12:14 PM
I don't know if it's just me, but if I had tear gas thrown into my house, I'd pick up the damn canisters and throw them back out...


You try that, and let me know how that works out for ya.:scrutiny:

tkendrick
September 10, 2007, 12:14 PM
I live in Maricopa county.

Joe is a so-so LEO officer, a competant administrator (more important in a big city than being a good LEO, IMHO), and an excellent manipulator of the press.

Is NOT a 2nd Amendment supporter, as most of us would describe one. He would like to see Phoenix register all firearms, and has made several public statements re the questionable need for civilians to own handguns.

Don't let his hard on criminal stance fool you.

There is a lot of evidence floating around in this county that he is equally hard on political opponents, and not above "finding" evidence against any one who crosses him.

Clipper
September 10, 2007, 12:17 PM
Then be sure to wear oven mits around the house. Those canisters are designed to get too hot to hold for precicely that reason. Gee, that wouldn't be a fire hazard, perhaps?

Officers'Wife
September 10, 2007, 12:22 PM
Deputies went to the home to serve a warrant out of Las Vegas and search for assault rifles, armor-piercing ammunition and other guns taken in a burglary in that city.

A legal warrent legally served...

Eric Kush, 26, who wasnít the burglary suspect, refused to come out of the house when SWAT members ordered him to, so they shot tear gas through the windows.

Wasn't there so cannot say, I have to wonder though, was Kush shown the warrent or did a bunch of armed men just scream at him to leave his house? If the former, he needs to be fried, if the latter he was justified. Does Kush have a history of violence that such tactics were justified? If so the last word speaks for itself. I don't know and the papers aren't telling. Unfortunately I've heard of too many abuses with no darn excuses to give the LEO's the benefit of the doubt.

The personnel carrier crashed when its engine shut off as a deputy moved it, reducing its braking capacity, Chagolla said.

Amateur driver... When I was put on a tractor I didn't turn soon enough and the disc covered about two foot of a state highway. The owners took turns yelling at me for an hour and I wasn't allowed to operate the thing by myself for the rest of the season. Had it not been my Dad and my Uncle and I'd been older than 13 they would have fired me. Despite the old joke here that MBT's always have the right of way, if a tank or APC were to damage a parked private vehicle the operator would at best be getting a new MOS.


Selena

Zoogster
September 10, 2007, 12:26 PM
I don't know if it's just me, but if I had tear gas thrown into my house, I'd pick up the damn canisters and throw them back out... Then be sure to wear oven mits around the house. Those canisters are designed to get too hot to hold for precicely that reason. Gee, that wouldn't be a fire hazard, perhaps?

By thier nature they are rapidly burning much like a firework. They do and often have started fires. If they get so hot as to start fires then picking them up while they are burning is not going to feel so good. However I don't think they are designed to be too hot for that reason. They simply get too hot because the nature of rapidly burning chemicals to create irritant gases and something large enough to create a lot of such gas in a short time creates a lot of heat and poses a fire danger.

Harley Quinn
September 10, 2007, 12:27 PM
This article is old but it still is very clear, something went really bad that day for all involved.
I am wondering what the final legal bill cost the Sheriffs department.:what:
Any follow up would be good.

:uhoh:

Harley Quinn
September 10, 2007, 12:28 PM
Just to add. There really has to be a follow up don't you think.
This is just to bad to be for real. This is AZ not Iraq.

Rumble
September 10, 2007, 12:49 PM
I did a Lexis-Nexis search, but couldn't find anything more recent than the 2004 article mentioning that Eric Kush would be charged with endagerment.

S.P.E.C.T.R.E.
September 10, 2007, 12:55 PM
If you don't come out of a house when the cops tell you to, they're coming in after you. Don't protest the legal system when armed police are surrounding your house. Make your case in court. It's not a perfect system but I'd rather take my chances with a judge and jury than 20 armed and agitated police officers.

Kimber1911_06238
September 10, 2007, 01:00 PM
+1 for what spectre said. If the swat team is at my house, I'm coming out. I might be mad as hell, but I'm not doing anything stupid....

Present your case in court and hopefully clear things up.

Harley Quinn
September 10, 2007, 01:01 PM
It is a known fact for a very long time that tear gas (cannisters are hot) will burn a building to the ground.
Happened in the SLA shootout:

http://www.courttv.com/trials/soliah/slahistory5_ctv.html

114:what:

Officers'Wife
September 10, 2007, 01:06 PM
Hi S.P.E.C.T.R.E.

In the words of someone wiser than I- you cannot expect calm reflection in the shadow of an upraised knife.

Or if you prefer someone older than Scalia-

"The verdict would have not the slightest effect,
As the pig had been dead for some years."

Remember that I grew up in the Clinton era when the police where generally more violent than the criminals. I would just like to know if they warrent was served or they came up to the house like the barbarian hordes of old saying we will make you respect the law if we have to ignore every statute on the books. No more, no less.

wheelgunslinger
September 10, 2007, 01:08 PM
Two months previous to this, they lost a couple of LEOs in a shootout, another was wounded and still another crashed and was seriously injured responding to the call.
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/27122

So, they may have been a little keyed up at this particular event with the tear gas.

And, this may point to why there is no followup. Can you imagine the pressure applied to local journalists after they lost this case?
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/45684

sheesh. what a mess that county is.

Edit: and the hits just keep on coming...
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/70079

Officers'Wife
September 10, 2007, 01:24 PM
HI Wheelgun,

And to think the 1st amendment was designed to prevent government secrecy. So much the pity.

Two months previous to this, they lost a couple of LEOs in a shootout, another was wounded and still another crashed and was seriously injured responding to the call. So, they may have been a little keyed up at this particular event with the tear gas.

Same reasoning the gang-banger in Chicago used when a six year was killed at her birthday party.

sheesh. what a mess that county is.

I'll take your word for it. As I said before - I've heard of too many abuses that have no excuses.

Selena

Pilgrim
September 10, 2007, 02:33 PM
I thought Sheriff Joe dissolved the SWAT team and started all over with a new SWAT team in this time frame, perhaps over this incident.

Pilgrim

Harley Quinn
September 10, 2007, 02:35 PM
Officers wife,

I have seen both sides of the fence, as I am sure many have.

We only have the report of the paper, and the person who wrote it to go on regarding this account.

It would be prudent to not voice to many opinions regarding this event, since we are not really privy to the actual confrontation and what happened.

More information is needed before judgement is passed I'd say (for me anyway). I am going to follow it up, not sure how, but I'll contact a retired LEO I know, that moved to the location and see what he can dig up. Best I can do before any character assassination on my part. One way or the other.

Last but not least, it looks like the Sheriff may be more right, than wrong, if you are to believe the suit against him.


HQ

Invalid
September 10, 2007, 02:39 PM
I think "Sheriff Joe" is a walking travesty of justice and I wouldn't put it past him to allow that kind of violent behavior, but I'd also like to hear all sides of this. If I'm going to hate on the guy, I want some solid evidence first.

Bazooka Joe71
September 10, 2007, 02:48 PM
It sucks that the guy's house was burned down and dog killed, but if someone phoned in a lie about me and my house was surrounded by SWAT, you better bet your A$$ I'm coming out with my hands up and let them see for themselves I am nothing but a law-abiding citizen.

Now, after they see I was not a threat and the situation is calmed down, thats a different story.

Officers'Wife
September 10, 2007, 03:29 PM
Hi Harly,

I would greatly appreciate any further details your friend could dig. Especially if this Kurd person was known for violent behaviors. That would at least give me reason to believe the show of force was necessary. The idea that deadly force is appropriate because there is evidence of a deadly weapon in the house irregardless of the character of the resident is a frightening implication.

While I agree there is not nearly enough information, the forefathers warned us repeatedly not to give our servants (i.e. the government) too much benefit of the doubt. I will admit I am reacting to this story emotionally, quite frankly I believe gang-bangers to be the true scum of the earth, when LEOs act like gang-bangers they need to prove they are not.

Selena

Grey54956
September 10, 2007, 04:07 PM
I don't want to seem like a cop-basher here, but the whole thing sounds like a keystone cop comedy gone horribly awry.

I know that both stories are tilted toward different points of view, but if the truth lies somewhere in the middle, then the Sheriff's office is probably going to be paying some very hefty legal bills.

sacp81170a
September 10, 2007, 04:34 PM
If you don't come out of a house when the cops tell you to, they're coming in after you.

Especially with a search warrant. In case everybody's not aware of procedures, a warrant is basically a court order commanding law enforcement to arrest, search, or seize whatever or whomever is named in the warrant. If I've got a warrant in hand, you're coming out of the house one way or another. I'm not saying that it couldn't have been handled differently, but a search warrant is nothing to be arguing with the police about. Make your case in court, not on the street. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

Harley Quinn
September 10, 2007, 04:38 PM
Hi all,
I agree, Officers'Wife and with Grey also.
I am writing another friend and sending him the link. He is not LEO so I'll get his take on it also. Honest guy he will let me know what he feels.
Plus living in the area he might have read something later to help.

HQ

tkendrick
September 10, 2007, 04:39 PM
the Sheriff's office is probably going to be paying some very hefty legal bills.


Which happens with depressing regularity under this guys administration.

Grey54956
September 10, 2007, 04:51 PM
Did the suspect not come out in a reasonable amount of time, or did the SWAT team rush the action 2 seconds after announcing their presence with a gas canister?

Spartacus451
September 10, 2007, 04:52 PM
The Wikipedia page on Joe needs to be updated with some of the citations provided here. Maybe where there is smoke there is fire.

Kilgor
September 11, 2007, 03:38 AM
I find it hard to believe a knocked over candle caused the fire instead of the multiple tear gas containers fired into the home.

Candles go out VERY easily and knocking one over usually extinguishes the flame, whereas tear gas containers are known to set structures ablaze.

I think the fire investigator is trying to cover the county's backside financially on this issue.



I can also understand somewhat the swat guys being nervous if they had intel (which turned out to be bad intel) that the guy possessed multiple fully automatic rifles and ammo.

It seems that they could have staked the house out and taken him down when he exited the house and it was obvious that he didn't have a rifle in his hands.



Unfortunately we are dealing with few facts here.

bogie
September 11, 2007, 04:32 AM
C'mon... Isn't anyone but a coupla folks above the shallow side of the bell curve?

What part of "he was busting either a burglar or a fence" don't you understand? Now go back to government school, and tell your teacher you're being screwed.

As for use of force - you give the toys to the departments, they use the toys...

Grey54956
September 11, 2007, 08:16 AM
I wonder if the faulty information was the result of the informant being told what to say to justify going in with guns a-blazin.

Tom C.
September 11, 2007, 10:09 AM
Unfortunately, I think this kind of thing is becoming more common. Every sheriff/police chief from every city or whistle stop thinks he needs a swat team to be in the big leagues. Instead of a couple of cops going to the front door and knocking, they send in the Keystone Cops. Got to show utilization on your high dollar assets or you might loose them.

I donít think it matters what the real story is in this case. I see a case of grotesque over reaction by the cops.

How about if the legal bills and settlement of the civil suit come out of the budget for the swat team?

Joe Demko
September 11, 2007, 10:31 AM
"Sheriff Joe" has been at several national Sheriff's conventions I attended. He isn't as popular among his fellow sheriffs as he is among the folks who have heard about him through his "tough on crime" publicity. Many other sheriffs seem to think "Sheriff Joe" excells mostly at self-promotion.

the naked prophet
September 11, 2007, 11:22 AM
And how many of your neighbors would identify an AR-15 or semiauto AK47 clone that many of you own, as a machine gun? They see you heading to the range (or getting back) and call the cops to tell them you have "an arsenal of machine guns."

That's all it would take for a warrant, and some newspaper to print that you're a burglar or fence.

Harley Quinn
September 11, 2007, 11:23 AM
C'mon... Isn't anyone but a coupla folks above the shallow side of the bell curve?

What part of "he was busting either a burglar or a fence" don't you understand? Now go back to government school, and tell your teacher you're being screwed.

Actually the way you are overreacting to this thread without more information, is a similar thing, to the over reacting the SWAT team did in your opinion.:confused:

The whole thing seems to be one article from the media and a next door neighbors story, and nothing to go by later. Failure to corroborate is as bad in your statement as it was at the scene of the incidence IMHO.

THR usually shuts these down and for good reason I can see.

:what:

ArfinGreebly
September 11, 2007, 11:51 AM
I left the thread open to see if anyone would dig up the rest of the story.

Evidently very little new intel.

The guy who wrote the article is no longer with that paper.

The sheriff, who's in an elected office, continues to be elected.

I think we've gotten all the signal we're getting from this one.

The rest is noise.

(Apologies to Billy Shakespeare)

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