Accidental discharge?


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pablo45
September 11, 2007, 05:27 PM
You don't have to comment if you do not want to. I just want to see how many out there have experience this and learned from it. Unintentional, negligent, however you would like to put it. A weapon that was fired without you wanting it to go off. Or you just not knowing it was chambered and thinking it would dry fire.

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hso
September 11, 2007, 05:37 PM
The more appropriate term would be negligent discharge. An accidental discharge involves an equipment failure (something very very rare).

I've had both an AD and an ND. The AD involved a defective magazine that kept the last round in place while locking back the slide. The ND was my getting preoccupied with a new flashlight attachment and a magazine change where I negligently slapped a loaded magazine in and negligently pulled the trigger. Hole in a couple of walls in the upstairs bathroom, ringing ears, startled family downstairs resulted.

Nitrogen
September 11, 2007, 05:39 PM
I havn't had my negligent/accidental discharge yet.

The_Antibubba
September 11, 2007, 06:02 PM
I haven't had my negligent/accidental discharge yet.

And that's what it really is about. I haven't had one yet either, and though I hope not to, I pray that whichever Rule I broke, I observed all the others, so that nobody is hurt.

Black Majik
September 11, 2007, 06:04 PM
Never had one, yet either. I'm knockin' on wood.

"There are three types of shooters: Those who have NDs, those who will have NDs, and those who will have a ND again."

W.E.G.
September 11, 2007, 06:13 PM
I was accidentally negligent. Thanks to Rule 2, the toaster is fine. Not so much the drywall though.
My bad.

Don't try this at home.

I've had three actually. The one with the toaster was the most memorable.

The first was in around 1971, with an el-cheapo .22 revolver that misfired, and then I did something, not exactly sure what. It fired. Powder burns on my fingers from that one.

Second was the 30-30 in the kitchen in around 1976. "Forgot" it was loaded.
Most specatcular because of the specators present.
Fortunately no tragedy, but MAN, that is embarrassing.

Third was in around 1995, a Jennings .22 pistol that slam-fired when I was "testing" it to see if it would feed rounds from the mag. Hole in the panelling. No wonder it only cost $40 at the gun show. It eventually had a minor kaboom, destroying the extractor. So, I sold it to the DC Police Dept. for $100.

A fourth, that I don't really think counts, was a FAL slam-fire when I was chambering a round on the range while the gun was pointed in the direction of the targets. I only put that one in the category of a "possible" ND because I already knew better than to feed a single round into the chamber of a FAL, and just let the bolt slam on it.

I hope I'm done with those sorts of boo-boo's.

1man
September 11, 2007, 06:27 PM
Define accidental discharge? If it means an unintentional discharge while that violating safety rule(s), then no for me. I did let an unintentional round go off while doing a rapid engagement drill.
No negligent discharge.

LeoC
September 11, 2007, 06:33 PM
A negligent discharge happens as a result of operator error/input. It doesn't matter whether there was intent or not. If you did something to the gun and it fired, that's a negligent discharge.

If the gun fired without any outside input by you (ie. mechanical failure/defect) then it could be an accidental discharge.

I haven't had either one (knock on wood)

The Bushmaster
September 11, 2007, 07:09 PM
I have never had an ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE...There is no such thing as an accident. There is, however, "Cause and Effect"...I have had a couple of those (Cause and Effects). All my fault. Just glad I have always followed the four safety rules...No harm done except a hole in the floor and shattered nerves and pride...

351 WINCHESTER
September 11, 2007, 07:45 PM
I think it's safe to say that most "gun nuts" , myself included will, sooner or later, have an accidental discharge.

JUST REMEMBER RULE #1. ALWAYS POINT YOUR MUZZLE IN A SAFE DIRECTION.

littlelefty
September 11, 2007, 08:03 PM
once, and hopefully never again. It was with my .308 (wrong forum but it answers the question).
Got out of the truck, inserted magazine, chambered a round, closed bolt and must have put finger on trigger (though I don't recall consiously doing it). Muzzle was pointed up and away. Boom! I must say it ruined the rest of the afternoon as I just sat in the tree stand kind of sulking over what happened, replaying the scenario in my head 1000 times until dark. Then I slinked down and went to the house. For a while I even thought that the gun malfunctioned, but it has not since. Wow! What an attention getter.:(:what::(:what::confused::eek::confused::eek:

I still think about it everytime I move my 1911 from condition 4 to 1, which of course involves passing through condition 0. Gun is ALWAYS pointed down and away, and you should see my trigger finger: I think it would break if it were any further away from the trigger.

ranger335v
September 11, 2007, 08:23 PM
I've been shooting and hunting for over 55 years and have had one AD and two NDs over that time. None of them did any damage - to anything but my pride - because I have ALWAYS practiced muzzle control, even with unloaded guns. Both my father and grandpa would burn my bottom if I didn't!

The AD was a bolt rifle that went off while I was pushing through a dense thicket. One twig had to have moved the safety, another the trigger. The bullet splashed up the dirt 3 feet in front of me. I open the bolt when I go into thick stuff now.

The first ND was when I was unloading a new to me lever rifle on a frigid day in Colorado with gloved hands. Thick finger hit the trigger as I worked the rounds out of the magazine. The round went straight up, it may be orbiting the moon.

The next ND was while lowering the hammer on a .357 Black Hawk after deciding not to take a shot. It was about 10 degrees below nothing that morning and I had no gloves, my thumb on that cold steel was too numb to know what it was doing. Again, the round hit the ground about 3 feet in front of me.

Can't say I really learned anything new, but did get confirmation that muzzle contol is always vital. And I tell my grandsons about it too, they are pretty safe shooters themselves.

DevilDog0402
September 11, 2007, 10:24 PM
Never have. Hope to keep it that way.

CWL
September 11, 2007, 11:20 PM
Just realized I've had both Accidental and Negligent.

ND was when I put a .45 round into friend's livingroom floor. Luckily I always keep muzzle discipline, trigger discipline has been learned the hard way.

AD was when my brand new Kimber went full-auto on me the first time at the range. First round was intentional, the 6 following were due to a bad sear. (Note and this was a NIB Custom Shop Kimber!)

soutex50
September 12, 2007, 12:40 AM
They say its not if but when......

Colt 45 in a crowded office with three other firearms instructors. nice hole in the ceiling to remind me of it forever. Funny thing, not one of us remembers watching me put a loaded magazine in it while demonstrating a new "double action" system installed in the old Colt. Oh well, I guess my wife summed it up best, " thank God it was you guys (instructors) and not one of the other idiots or someone would be dead, at least you guys point it in a safe place.....

Hey, you live and you learn.

Take care everyone

Old Dog
September 12, 2007, 03:35 AM
Pablo45, we just had a lengthy thread (complete w/poll) on NDs within the past two weeks.

Edit: Okay, so it was within the past three and a half weeks:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=297825
... and was titled: "Have you had an ND [negligent discharge]?"

stevelyn
September 12, 2007, 03:39 AM
Learned not to play with the hammer and trigger on a Winchester M-94 while taking a break while climbing a hill on a deer hunt.
Happened in when I was a teenager in WV.

TnShooter83
September 12, 2007, 03:50 AM
It was on a Tuned WH77, with a trigger set LOW....
Thankfully I sight the target before the finger touched the trigger.

gtee03
September 12, 2007, 05:10 PM
Yes, I have experienced an AD and I'm lucky it happened at the range and not at home.

I overtightened one of the grip screws of my Bersa .380 and the end of the scew apparently came in contact with what they call the "hammer piece". The deflection of the hammer piece caused the sear to not engage the hammer so after inserting a loaded magazine and releasing the slide via the slide stop, the hammer followed the slide and caused a slamfire. Scary, but pointed downrage as it should have been. I'm just happy I did that at my gun club and not at home.

deadin
September 12, 2007, 05:17 PM
1 in 4 have had an AD/ND?
That's scarey. I would say there's a whole lot of folks here that aren't paying much attention to what they're doing.

brashboy
September 12, 2007, 05:21 PM
Negligent discharge? Sure, all the time...

Oh wait, you meant with FIREARMS?!?!?

Only once. Had finger on the trigger while checking out a vacant rental property that I thought had an unwelcome intruder. Forgot Rule #1. I must have been more stressed than I thought. I was alone, thank God. Scared hell out of me.

Sidebar: Anyone who thinks the XD9 has too high a trigger pull, it ain't so.

The Wiry Irishman
September 12, 2007, 05:41 PM
I'm not sure how these qualify, but when I first started shooting I had a couple on both an S&W 41 and a friend's 1911. Both guns had approx 2.5 pound triggers, which led to a handful of accidental double-taps when I was trying to put a single round on target. I've never had a gun go off when I didn't mean for it to, just guns going off more times than I meant.

CWL
September 12, 2007, 05:43 PM
1 in 4 have had an AD/ND?
That's scarey. I would say there's a whole lot of folks here that aren't paying much attention to what they're doing.

deadin, there are those who have had a negligent discharge, and there are all the others who have not-yet had a ND. It's the people who have had more than one ND that are scary.

ShooterMcGavin
September 12, 2007, 06:26 PM
Does it count as a ND if....
You are at the range and switching guns with a friend. You are not sure if he finished off all the rounds in the magazine. Because it is more fun to shoot than manually check the chamber, you pick up the gun, aim downrange, and pull the trigger?

That's the closest I have come to a ND. The gun was empty in my case. However, IF it went BANG, I'm curious what you would call that circumstance.

Im283
September 12, 2007, 06:33 PM
However, IF it went BANG, I'm curious what you would call that circumstance.

pointed downrange, i call that taking a shot.

None for me yet.

W.E.G.
September 12, 2007, 08:03 PM
deadin, there are those who have had a negligent discharge, and there are all the others who have not-yet had a ND. It's the people who have had more than one ND that are scary.

Some of us are just that way. http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/run_with_scissors.gif

possom813
September 13, 2007, 02:01 AM
I had my first(and hopefully last) accidental/negligent discharge when I was around 6 years old. My dad had taken my cousin and myself out with the .22's to learn more. It was about the time he was teaching us how to properly handle firearms. No big deal, but after we got home, my parents were playing cards with some friends and my cousin and I were staying occupado playing cowboys and indians or something similar. Anyways, we ended up in my parents room, without their knowledge. While jumping on the bed we discovered that my dad had left his .22 revolver on his chest of drawers. So we were jumping on the bed with the gun waving in my hand, I pulled the trigger, my cousin fell off the bed and knocked himself out, my parents came running back and thought he was dead. After all the commotion, they figured out that I shot the headboard and he was ok. The bullet went through the headboard, through the drywall, and knocked a brick loose outside. Needless to say, my mom bought a safe for the pistols the next morning.

Funny enough, I didn't get into trouble, the next few times my dad took me target shooting he taught me how to properly handle pistols.

Silvanus
September 13, 2007, 07:18 AM
The more appropriate term would be negligent discharge.

Why do people always say that. "Accident" doesn't mean you're not responsible for what happened. You also call it a "car accident" no matter who's responsible. Not "negligent driving".

Working Man
September 13, 2007, 07:27 AM
I voted no as mine was a negligent discharge.

Unholster, reholster, unholster with my finger in the wrong place a couple of years ago.

First and last.... I still have the case and head sitting on my dresser as a
reminder I look at every day.

I'm not one that thinks it will happen sooner or later.... just that it can.

SaxonPig
September 13, 2007, 12:51 PM
Had two. One was my fault (thought chamber was empty and pulled trigger) and the other was a mechanical slip. No injuries, minor damage.

Both were accidents. Don't let a lawyer looking to sue you or prosecute you hear you utter the word negligent. That's a legal term and as soon as you say it you lose in court.

AD is safer and after all, it was an accident which is an unintended event. Most ADs result from some mistake or negligence, but they are all unintended events so they are all accidents.

Lonestar49
September 13, 2007, 01:02 PM
...

The 4 - 6 basic rules for gun safety are still the basics here.

No AD's.


LS

fletcher
September 13, 2007, 01:04 PM
I've had an accidental discharge (slam fire), but not a negligent discharge. Hopefully it stays that way.

gggman
September 13, 2007, 03:43 PM
Wow, I'm shocked that nearly a third of the people responding to this have had an AD. To me, that seems like a very high percentage, and it's a little unsettling.
I've been shooting for more than 40 years, and had a ccp for 25 years, and it's never happened.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen to me, but I am saying it "won't" happen to me.

buzz_knox
September 13, 2007, 03:56 PM
I've had an AD, but it was an equipment issue not a trigger control problem. I was closing the lever on a BLR-22 when the round fired. My finger wasn't on the trigger and the bolt wasn't completely forward. I have no idea what happened and can only guess that a piece of debris or the like had gotten onto the bolt face and had struck the rim sufficiently hard as the round was chambered.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen to me, but I am saying it "won't" happen to me.

Everyone says it won't, including some very capable shooters who have had the impossible happen to them. If you are lucky, you will be correct. The rules were created to insure that when you're luck runs out, you won't hurt anything other than property and pride. I've had a very capable shooter put a round beside my foot during a drill because he was tired and his luck ran out. Fortunately, mine hadn't run out that day, nor did it the day I was complacent myself and nearly had an ND.

Ops Officer
September 13, 2007, 04:10 PM
No AD or ND, thank God. But it is gratifying to read of posts where members know the difference. The reports I've seen of guns fired unintentionally were all NDs. Fortunately, those involved had muzzles pointed in a harmless direction, which in most cases were intentionally.

76shuvlinoff
September 13, 2007, 04:30 PM
Almost 25 years ago one .22 rd from a Marlin 39 into the bedroom wall then up through the ceiling of the closet as I was sitting on the edge of the bed letting the hammer down. Thumb slipped. Scared the crap out me.

yesit'sloaded
September 13, 2007, 04:43 PM
I''m not calling it an ND, but I have shot a few semis for the first time and ended up popping off a round more than I wanted to. Mostly a combination of light triggers and heavy recoil.

ronto
September 13, 2007, 05:15 PM
A bolt action shotgun when I dropped it...Nobody hurt...From then on I keep the chamber empty on long guns until I'm ready to fire...They are not drop-safe.

CWL
September 13, 2007, 06:09 PM
Why do people always say that. "Accident" doesn't mean you're not responsible for what happened. You also call it a "car accident" no matter who's responsible. Not "negligent driving".

Silvanus,
Many here in the US shooting community are trying to distinguish between ND & AD because of the ongoing battle with people who want to ban guns and to remind all of the responsibilities of gun ownership.

Negligent Discharge is the individual acceptance of guilt for not properly handling a loaded firearm.

ADs are what is often claimed by individuals who do not accept responsibility for their actions. Many times, negligent people will try to hide their fault by claiming that "the gun just went off", rather than admit that they pulled the trigger. There are many naive-enough to believe that guns go-off by themselves untouched (even real ADs typically begin with someone handling a loaded firearm), and this fuels anti-gun people's fears.

mosesv2
September 13, 2007, 07:23 PM
I had a not-on-purpose (ND?) double tap from a really nicely tuned trigger on a Custom Colt the first time I experienced a superb trigger... pointed down range.

Having been used to a heavier trigger on the first handgun I ever bought (Hi-Power) I kind of "ham handed" it... Happy to report that the BHP has a great trigger now and I have not had any further incident.

I am concerned, however, that the ratio is 33% in the yes category!

Hauptmann
September 13, 2007, 07:35 PM
I had one when I was about 14 or so with my dad's Walther PPK .380 in the living room. I honestly don't know what the heck I was thinking, but I chambered a round and pulled the trigger. The round went through the living room wall and into the study where it went through a picture frame and imbedded in the outer wall. My mom was more pissed than my dad and she chewed me out and made me fix the wall. My dad just shook his head and said that I wasn't doing a good job of convincing my mom to let me get a car when I turned 16.

ranger335v
September 14, 2007, 05:26 PM
"1 in 4 have had an AD/ND? That's scarey. I would say there's a whole lot of folks here that aren't paying much attention to what they're doing."

One must smile at such statements.

IF we were all at a comfy, warm shooting range with no significant distractions, that might be true. IF anyone or anything had been injured because of poor muzzle control it might be true. But, none of that is in evidence here so a great deal of attention to what we were doing must have been displayed. Along with more than a little honesty.

Stay with it, your turn is coming. Just control the muzzle and it won't amount to anything more than an embarassment.

RustyHammer
September 14, 2007, 05:47 PM
Not since that night with the three cheerleaders ... but we won't go there ;)

apollosmith
September 14, 2007, 10:56 PM
I once made the terrible mistake of shooting Wolf ammo in my bolt action .223 while varmint hunting. The bullets would not chamber well. I had one where the bolt slide forward, but would not slide down so I forced it and when the bolt finally snapped free, the knuckle on one of my fingers hit the trigger and BANG. Was pointed safely town range. I threw away my Wolf ammo and will never shoot that garbage again.

I did get on the trigger of my shotgun quite a bit early once due to some heavy gloves when a pheasant flushed right at my feet scaring the bejeebees out of me, but I passed that one off as a hip shot. :-)

apollosmith
September 14, 2007, 11:03 PM
Stay with it, your turn is coming. Just control the muzzle and it won't amount to anything more than an embarassment.

Yeah, that's the beauty of the three big gun safety rules - as long as you don't violate all of them at the same time, nobody gets hurt (except for your pride).

jaysouth
September 14, 2007, 11:07 PM
Never see an accidental discharge. Attended a couple of negligent discharges.

Nicky Santoro
September 15, 2007, 02:17 PM
Accidental? No, I had a stupid, careless discharge. I've yet to hear about a true, verifiable "accidental" discharge.

Hot brass
September 17, 2007, 04:38 AM
Booze and guns don`t mix, how would I know? :banghead:

Air,Land&Sea
September 17, 2007, 09:48 AM
The anti's love this sort of thread.
Anyone who's had an "accident" should not own firearms.

Autolycus
September 17, 2007, 11:43 AM
Or drive cars.

Hauptmann
September 17, 2007, 11:49 AM
....or wear clean underwear :D

Glockafella
September 17, 2007, 11:58 AM
using the wrong holster and it grabbed the trigger on my Glock 22...nice hole in the ceiling above my dresser.

This is why I no longer just throw all my holsters together in one drawer anymore.

Maximum1
September 17, 2007, 10:16 PM
man, do we need training......SPECIFICALLY when it come to accidental discharge "Trigger Finger Discipline: is when your barrel is on the target and you intend to fire ONLY THEN is your finger placed on the trigger


Basic Rules of Safe Gun Handling (Internationally Recognized)

1. All guns are always loaded (otherwise know as NEVER aim a gun at anything you're not will to kill).
2. Muzzle Control (also known as “Laser Rule”).
3. Trigger Finger Discipline.
4. Know your target.

Let's elaborate on those rules a bit...

1. All guns are always loaded. This means you should NEVER relax the amount of care with which you handle a gun just because it's not loaded. Always handle an empty gun with as much care as a loaded one. There are three reasons for this rule. First, you could be wrong. The gun could be loaded. Maybe you just forgot to unload it, or maybe you forgot that you loaded it. Maybe you missed one of the cartridges when unloading. Maybe someone else messed with the gun when you weren't looking. Maybe you've picked up the wrong gun. There are lots of ways that the gun could be loaded without your knowing it. Second, unsafe handling is a bad habit. Once you begin to do something unsafe with an empty gun, you will eventually screw up and do it with a loaded gun. Third, people around you won't know the gun is unloaded. In fact, if they know to treat all guns as loaded, they will naturally assume yours is loaded. At the very least, you will frighten them. At worst, they will do something drastic in reaction to a perceived life-threatening situation. In particular, they might shoot you first. Violations of this rule have lead to many of the most tragic and avoidable gun accidents. Bottom-line; check, recheck then check it again.

2. Never point a gun at anything you are unwilling to destroy. I’ll say that again, never point a gun at anything you are unwilling to destroy. Although there are lots of things that you probably don't want to destroy---walls, windows, furniture, appliances, pets---the most important point is that you shouldn't aim your gun at people. Don't point your gun in the general direction of people. Don't point your gun at objects with people in or behind them. Keep the gun pointed in a safe direction (usually straight up or straight down) at all times. Aside from the obvious danger of an accident, pointing your gun at someone is rude and often a crime. Also, as already mentioned, the other person might shoot you first. To elaborate on this, it is rude to even face a person while holding a gun by its grip. The difference between pointing a gun down and pointing it forward is 1/10 of a second, which no one's reflexes can beat. Thus you are forcing that person to make a choice: Either trust you with their life or draw and fire immediately. It is rude to force that choice on another person. It is also deadly dangerous. Above all, never ever face or approach a police officer with a gun in your hand. They will shoot you. Obviously, in a self defense situation, you might end up pointing your gun at a person; but you should do so only if that person's destruction is a consequence you are willing to face. Note: In some circumstances, particularly in urban settings, there are no safe directions. Don't handle guns in those situations.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. When your muzzle is on target and you intend to fire ONLY THEN is your finger placed on the trigger. The trigger is for firing the gun, not for resting your trigger finger between shots. You can rest your finger on the body of the gun just above the trigger---this is known as the "index position." Moving your finger to the trigger is such a small movement that it won't slow you down no matter how badly you need to fire. If your finger is resting on the trigger, it's too easy to fire the gun accidentally. A sudden loud noise could startle you, or you could trip and fall, or run into something. Simple tension in a high stress situation can cause you to tighten the muscles in your hand without being aware of it.

4. Know your target. Know your targets backstop, foreground and surroundings at all times. If you don't know what your bullet will be hitting, don't pull the trigger. Keep in mind that your bullet may miss or pass through your intended target and hit another one. Also, watch out for ricochets off of hard, flat surfaces or even off of the flat surface of a pool of water. (Bullets will skip off of water just like stones.) The first question that gets asked at a police shooting investigation is "What was your backstop?" The answer had better not be "A school full of children" if the officer wants to keep his job. If you hunt, make sure you can see the animal in your sites when you shoot. A rustling in the bushes is not good enough, it could be anything from a fellow hunter to a couple of kids making out. This is especially tricky when your brain is telling you you're seeing more than you really are. If you see a deer dart into some bushes, your brain will match the rustling of the leaves with the deer's last visible motion and tell you where the deer is, almost as if you could see it. The problem is that you can't tell what else is in the bushes. In a defense situation, the same rule applies. Shooting through doors or at shadows and sounds is a good way to hit an innocent person. You wouldn't want to shoot your child for sneaking into the house after being out too late, or your spouse for eating a midnight snack. Always identify your target.


Additional Safety Rules

5. Always check the load condition of any gun you handle. A gun in your hand is your responsibility. Never take someone else's word that it's unloaded (or loaded). On a revolver, simply pop out the cylinder. If it's loaded, just eject the cartridges. This is a little trickier on a magazine-fed gun. If the magazine is removable, take it out. If the magazine is fixed, check it and empty it. Then open the action to empty the firing chamber. (Some revolvers don't have a cylinder that pops out, so you have to unload the gun through a loading gate.) If someone offers you a gun that you are unfamiliar with, don't be afraid to ask how it works. This is a very good habit to get into. Get religious about it. Check every time you pick up a gun, every time you hand a gun to someone else, and every time someone hands you a gun. Check even if you see the other person check it first. Don't worry that the other person will feel insulted: Experienced shooters will appreciate that you are concerned with safety---both yours and theirs. Most firing ranges have a rule against handing a loaded gun to another person. It's a good rule to follow at any time. The polite way to hand a gun to another person is unloaded, with the action open, barrel pointed down and trigger towards them. In a combat situation, of course, you should still check the gun, but this time to make sure it's loaded.

6. Know how the gun works. It's hard to use gun safely if you don't know to use it at all. If you don't know how a particular gun works, read the manual, ask the person you got it from, write the manufacturer for a manual, or seek the advice of an expert. Most gun manufacturers will be delighted to send you a free manual for your gun if they made it. It's a lot cheaper than fighting a law suit after you do something stupid. Make sure the gun is safe to operate. Regular cleaning and proper storage are necessary for safe operation. If you are unsure about a gun, have it inspected by a gunsmith.

7. Use only the correct ammunition. The wrong type of ammunition can cause all kinds of problems, some of them fatal. Just because the ammunition fits in the gun doesn't mean it's right for the gun. Ammunition with extra powder (often labeled "+P" or "+P+") can blow up the gun. Ammunition that is too small can result in the cartridge sliding out of the firing chamber and into the barrel. If a correct round is then loaded and fired, the obstructed barrel could blow up the gun. The correct type of ammunition is usually printed on the side of the gun. You can also get this information from the manual, from the manufacturer, or from an expert. Always store ammunition in the original boxes, because it's hard to tell the cartridges apart once they're out of the box. Also, don't carry more than one type of ammunition, especially if they look enough alike that you could easily confuse them. (E.g. carrying .22 LR and .410 shells is okay, but don't carry both 12-gauge and 16-gauge shells.)


8. Wear wrap around eye protection and ear protection. Gunfire always involves fire and smoke, which can harm the eyes. In addition, autoloading guns are also auto-ejecting, and the ejected casings can bounce back into your eyes. Finally, a shot into a nearby object can produce splinters and other flying debris. It's important to wear glasses that wrap around the sides or have protective side pieces. You should also wear a hat with a brim that comes down to the top of your glasses to prevent flying shell casings from lodging behind them. ("Deadeye" isn't a romantic nickname when it applies to you). Hearing damage is cumulative. Firing a few shots without ear protection probably won't hurt you, but continual exposure to gunfire will eventually cause nerve damage and deafness. (Lots of old-time shooters are nearly deaf from shooting without protection.) Hearing protection comes in two general flavors: exterior (muffs) and interior (plugs). Plugs may be adequate for outdoor ranges. Muffs are essential at indoor ranges. Indoors, the overpressure from firing the gun has nowhere to go and is reflected back at you from the walls. It can be conducted to your inner ear through the mastoid bone and do damage even though you don't feel anything. You should probably use both muffs and plugs simultaneously and always get the highest rated ones you can find (typically 29 db for muffs and 30+ for plugs).

9. Know how to handle and take corrective action regarding Class 1, 2 and 3 malfunctions; misfires, hangfires, and squib rounds, stove pipes, etc.). If you pull the trigger and the gun doesn't fire, there could be several reasons. It may not be loaded, or it may not have fed the ammunition from the magazine after the last shot. If the cartridge is loaded okay, it might simply be a bad round that doesn't fire---a misfire. Finally, it could be a hangfire, a round that fires slow. Since you can't tell without examining the round, and since a hangfire going off while you're looking at it would be dangerous, it's best to just hold the gun pointing at the target for at least 30 seconds. If it doesn't go off, you can begin to investigate. A squib round is one that has a weak powder charge. The bullet could easily get stuck in the barrel. If this happens, the report will be quiet and the recoil will feel funny. You should immediately unload the gun and inspect the barrel and firing chamber(s) for a stuck bullet. You may want to have a gunsmith examine the gun before you begin firing again. Consult a “qualified” instructor if you are unfamiliar with Class 1, 2, 3 malfunctions.

10. Always store the gun and ammunition separately, and where unauthorized persons---especially children---cannot get at it.

11. To unload, remove the magazine, then cycle the action. A magazine-fed pistol, rifle, or shotgun loads the firing chamber from the magazine every time the bolt, slide or pump mechanism is operated. If you're not paying attention, you could accidentally load the chamber. An autoloader requires even more care because it will keep the chamber continuously loaded until the weapon runs out of ammunition---you don't have to do anything. This can present a hazard when you try to unload the gun. Simply removing the magazine (or unloading a non-removable magazine) is not good enough because there could be a round in the firing chamber. You have to cycle the loading mechanism to get it out of there. However, if you cycle the mechanism before removing (or unloading) the magazine, you will simply load another round to replace the one you ejected. The solution is to remove (or empty) the magazine first, then cycle the loading mechanism to eject the loaded round. With no cartridges in the magazine, the firing chamber will not be reloaded. Accidentally loading the chamber is probably the single most common cause of accidental discharges: You want to show someone your gun, or you want to check the trigger pull to see if it's smooth enough, so you cycle the slide to eject the round from the chamber, then remove the magazine. Now you check the trigger with a careful tug and BLAM! Where'd that come from? Of course, if you were being careful where you were pointing the gun then there's no harm done except to your ego and your reputation. ALWAYS Press Check your weapon! Because this is a major problem gun manufacturers are addressing this issue by installing “chamber loaded” indicators on new models…Even then many expert still insist you press check.

12. Drinking and shooting is as bad as drinking and driving. 'nuff said.

13. Use the safety, but don't rely on it. A "safety" is a mechanism on a gun designed to prevent the gun from firing. Since keeping your finger off the trigger also prevents the gun from firing, safeties are mostly intended to prevent accidents if the gun is dropped or snagged on something. (Note: Most long guns are not drop safe, regardless of safeties. In most cases long gun safeties only block the trigger. They do not block the firing pin or even the hammer.) In gun training circles, the subject of safeties is a bit controversial. Instructors are concerned that students may attempt to use the safety as a substitute for safe handling practices. Consequently, many safety courses never even mention them. The consensus seems to be that if your gun has safety mechanisms, you should learn how they work, and you should use them whenever possible, in keeping with the idea of minimal readiness. However, a safety is a mechanical device and any mechanical device can fail. Use them, but never depend on them. Keep in mind that even the best safety mechanism is not as safe as unloading the gun; and since you shouldn't relax your safe handling with an unloaded gun you certainly shouldn't be any less careful with a loaded gun that has the safety on. In particular, don't assume that it's okay to pull the trigger or violate any of the other safety rules just because the safety is on.

14. Non-firearm safety is important too. Airguns, paint guns, and dart guns aren't firearms, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't follow the safety rules with them too. First of all, they do fire projectiles which could hurt people under the wrong circumstances. Second, some of these guns look enough like real firearms to frighten people into thinking you are dangerous. This is definitely rude, possibly illegal, and sometimes dangerous---people might take drastic actions such as jumping out of window to avoid you or trying to shoot you first. Third, you can pick up bad habits this way. Obviously, you have to make adjustments. For example, the whole point of having paint guns is that you and your friends can play with them and shoot each other. Still, it's good practice to treat these guns like real firearms by following all the safety rules (finger off the trigger, muzzle pointed in a safe direction, unload when not in use, etc.) except when it is necessary to shoot a participant in the game.

15. You are responsible for any gun you own, no matter whose hand it's in. Be cautious and thoughtful about who you loan your guns to and the circumstances under which you loan them. (State laws may also apply). Even if you cannot be held liable in your state, you don't want the burden of guilt that comes with someone getting killed with a gun you were responsible for.

16. There are often special rules for specific situations, such as at a gun range or out hunting.

It's my personal believe that as responsible gun owners it is our responsibility to learn these rules.


I want to MAKE IT CLEAR I DID NOT create these I only pass them on to you in the hopes of making our sport and Second Amendment Right safer. I do NOT represent nor am I taking credit as the author.

SaxonPig
September 17, 2007, 11:07 PM
I am well aware of the rules. Yet I once pulled the trigger on a gun I knew to be unloaded and put a hole in my bedroom wall.

In over 2,000 years of Western history only one man was said to be perfect.... and they murdered him.

Humans are imperfect and anyone can have a momentary lapse, make a mistake, fumble something or otherwise simply screw-up. You try to not let it happen, you try to be vigilant, but it's hard to be 100% all the time.

I am impressed by the fact that with so many ADs noted I didn't see any report of injuries. Like someone said, it takes 2 or more violations to cause injury. One will just make the gun go off harmlessly.

Someone in this thread said that anyone who has an AD shouldn't have a gun. Well, I crashed my car once. No more driving for me? I cut myself with a knife once. No more blades in my hands? I tripped and broke my arm when I was a youngster. No more walking?

How far do we take this attitude? Now, if someone is doing something truly stupid and it causes damage, that's another story. But simply human error? We aren't perfect and never will be.

ranger335v
September 18, 2007, 08:14 AM
Well said Saxon, you Pig! ;)

The Bushmaster
September 18, 2007, 09:52 AM
Good read SaxonPig...I believe that some of those that haven't had "cause and effect" discharge are either just starting out and have only one gun, own guns to just look at them or have been just plain lucky...

alsaqr
September 18, 2007, 10:30 AM
Yes, i had a ND when i was 14 years old. Did not hurt anyone but it woke me up. Have not had another one in 54 years.

Maximum1
September 18, 2007, 11:23 AM
"I am well aware of the rules"

Apparently not......They're NOT rules RATHER training PRACTICES ...BIG DIFFERENCE.

Maximum1
September 18, 2007, 11:25 AM
How many load and unload their firearm(s) at home??? If you do, how many times had you done it in the last three months....Please be honest.

fletcher
September 18, 2007, 11:27 AM
How many load and unload their firearm(s) at home??? If you do, how many times had you done it in the last three months....Please be honest.
Very frequently to dry-fire practice. At least every other day.

Sonora Rebel
September 18, 2007, 12:01 PM
2 ND's... :eek:

1. Wet thumb slipped off the hammer while decocking a Win. Mod .94 .30-30in the forest. (BANG) No harm done but it got my attention. :uhoh:

2. Unloaded a rain soaked S&W Mod. 10 .38 to wipe it down. I was tired... 'Failed to 'count' the rounds. One hung on the grip when I dumped them (low light)... Weapon was being held in my lap sideways and nearly inverted when for some idiot reason I dry-fired it. 'Put hole thru medicine cabinet mirror in bathroom... blew up can of shaving cream... went thru the drywall... thru the paneling in the hall on the other side and drilled a hole in the bedroom wall about 8" above the headboard. :(

That was in 1967 and 1975 respectively... 'Never had another one.

The Bushmaster
September 18, 2007, 01:43 PM
I carry daily and unload and clear my carry weapon daily...I fire on MY 25 yard range at least twice a week (I reload my own). The more you handle your firearms the greater the risk of a "cause & effect" discharge.

Don't worry Maximum1, if you do a lot of shooting and hunting, you'll get the (un)pleasent and (un)nerving discharge. It will happen. Just do like the rest of us do...Pay much attention to the four safety rules and nobody will get hurt...Not even you...:D

Obiwan
September 18, 2007, 02:45 PM
I don't agree that an ND is inevitable

I shoot a lot....a lot more than the average Joe

I know people that shoot a lot more than me

And despite that incredible number of manipulations none of us has EVER had an ND

It comes down to being "switched on"

No...you can't be switched on 100% of the time

But you are not handling weapons 100% of the time

Be casual when you are watching TV

Be deliberate with your weapons

Can it happen to me ....sure......it could

But if it does...I will still only blame me...not fate...or chance

No excuses...none are good enough

JAB
September 18, 2007, 02:53 PM
I witnessed one once, I was around 16. My sisters boyfriend was over, he was 18, and we went out to do some shooting. My step-dad had him cary his ithica pump 12 gage, but did not tell him it was loaded with one in the chamber, he was carrying it with one hand on the pump and apparently one one the trigger, and squeezed. Gun was pointed down range and no-one was hurt. The way I saw it it was both their fault, stepdad should have not handed him a loaded weapon, or atleast told him, his excuse was in our house all guns are loaded so he thought he knew, and ofcourse boyfriend thought he should have been told. They were both wrong and embarrased and defensive about it. I am glad I learned all my shooting from my granddad.

I voted no, however I have had an nd, just remembered while thinking off granddad. I was about 5 or six, in his basement I found some 22lr bullets. For what ever reason I decided to go at them with a hammer and chissel, got the lead out of a couple and then BANG. I nearly peed my pants, cant belive I didnt get hit as I was sitting on a concrete floor with the bullets between my legs on the floor, and concrete walls alll four sides. Luckily he was upstairs with the Grand Old Opera I think it was called, a country music show he was really into, he had it cranked full bore as he didnt hear that well, and he didnt hear the bang. He would have "climbed my frame with a 2x4" for that one!! No nd or ad after that.

kungfuhippie
September 18, 2007, 02:55 PM
I clicked yes, though it wasn't dramatic, I was obeying all but one of the rules. I was target shooting with Dumdum303, shooting my 10/22 and had just shot the target, maintaining my aim down range I got distracted (by something Dumdum303 said) and looked away from the target, but I kept my finger on the trigger and the turning motion aparently involved squeezing the trigger enough to fire one down range. So I was negligent, but thanks to me only breaking one of the rules I didn't do any permenant damage. That experience helped me realize the importance of focus when around firearms. I had grow lax.

donhudd
September 18, 2007, 02:56 PM
Not yet but I did hear of one by the instructor during a Hunter Safety Class

mljdeckard
September 18, 2007, 03:49 PM
This is the reason the four rules are redundant. You have to pretty much be breaking all four of them at the same time for something bad to happen.

I have a brother-in-law with one foot. The other was amputated after weeks of fighting off gangrene after blowing a load of birdshot into it after accepting an 'empty' gun from a friend. I show my boys, and explain to them, this happened because he broke all four rules at the same time. In following ALL FOUR OF THEM ALL THE TIME, it gives you much more insurance that if something bad does happen, (the gun discharges for any reason you care to name,) they won't have to start cutting things off of you, (or your friends,) IF you survive.

Maximum1
September 19, 2007, 12:27 PM
For those of us who load and unload firearm(s) at home there are many safety products on the markets such as ballistic pads, unloading stations, etc which are designed to provide safe and easy unloading of weapons. Heck, you can simply make your own; a small bucket filled with sand is all you need or a stack of old phone books….

The point, if we load and unload at home we need to use some type of ballistics safety product….As this subject CLEARLY DEMONSTRATES….. Anything less is LEGALLY NEGLIGENT.

Conqueror
September 19, 2007, 04:47 PM
"The two loudest sounds in the world are a "click" when you expect a "bang", and a "bang" when you expect a "click.""

I've had one ND. I thought my 12-gauge was unloaded, turns out I had one last shell in the pipe. I racked it to eject what I thought was the last hull, and pulled the trigger to decock the gun, and got an unpleasant surprise. There were other people around; good thing I had it pointed in a safe direction.

Maximum1 - I don't think anyone here has denied that their NDs were negligent. However, all the safety measures in the world - ballistic pads, unloading stations, sirens and claxons, safety signs all over your house, etc. will never be able to 100% ensure that you are safe. You still have to use Safety Device #1 - your brain - before any of those other devices are effective. If your brain safety is off, no amount of signage or devices will keep you from having a ND. Suggesting that these things will prevent NDs or makes them less dangerous makes the VERY FALSE assumption that people will remember to use them every time. If you forget something as basic as verifying that the gun is unloaded, how are you going to remember to use your unloading station?

gandog56
September 20, 2007, 08:10 AM
Had a Dan Wesson slamfire two rounds once.

Mad Magyar
September 20, 2007, 09:53 AM
As much as I admired Jeff Cooper, I must admit a disappointment when he described his own ND while in his den showing a weapon to an old buddy. He admitted there was no excuse for it, but it happened...:
Listen, we aren't talking about some 16yr old "pimply-faced" kid; but ol, "cocked-n-locked" himself. His stature was reduced somewhat in my eyes, but admired his courage to expose it late in his life.:cool:
To say, it could happen to anyone is strictly BS....Should not happen....

Conqueror
September 20, 2007, 10:16 AM
^^^That's an asinine thing to say. You claim it's BS to say it could happen to anyone? Then would you care to point out the people who are 100% immune to having an ND in their lifetime? If you can't say for sure that a person never have one in his lifetime, then it COULD happen to anyone.

Mad Magyar
September 20, 2007, 11:14 AM
[I]I believe that some of those that haven't had "cause and effect" discharge are either just starting out and have only one gun, own guns to just look at them or have been just plain lucky...[/[/I


The underline is mine....What? Are you serious?:eek: I certainly want to be a mile's length from you when you are handling a weapon....:mad:

The Bushmaster
September 20, 2007, 01:32 PM
Not a problem Mad magyar...You just keep your distance...The last time I had a "cause and effect" was when I was in my early 20's and failed to insure that a Winchester Mod 94 lever was in the safety position and for some reason that is still unknown to me it went off from half cock. I'm 65 now...But you keep your distance anyway...:neener:

By The Way...I still have that .30 WCF (.30-30). Never did it again...

Jimmie
September 20, 2007, 01:36 PM
I had one when I was pheasant hunting. Luckily (or maybe not luck) the gun was pointed in a safe direction. I was shouldering it when a bird flushed and put my finger in the trigger guard too soon. It fired at about 50 degrees barrel up. No damage and nobody even knew except me, but it was still scary/eye-opening.

Obiwan
September 20, 2007, 03:54 PM
I have a great ballistic safety product

My Gun Safe...nothing I own will put a round through that

And I am not too worried about a richochet.....

Because I am quite capable of verifying that my weapon is unloaded

These reports of ND's where the shooter was "certain the weapon was unloaded" give me the shivers

YZR
September 20, 2007, 04:27 PM
I have not had one (yet?) but two of my friends have.
They violated 2 rules:
1) Assume the gun is loaded
2) Check to make sure the gun is empty

dumdum303
September 20, 2007, 08:31 PM
Same as kungfuhippie, only with a Remington 511-x .22. I was sitting and was in the process of standing up or vise versa, but had already chambered the next round. Thankfully it was pointed downrange and it hit the backstop. Even with a .22, it scared me. I realized that I need to stay focused on safety.

elkhuntingfool
September 20, 2007, 08:51 PM
In my opinion, no such thing as an accidental discharge. Why was your finger on the trigger? If it was there - then your intent was to shoot the weapon, thefore, no accident.

Maximum1
September 21, 2007, 12:06 PM
+1 elkhuntingfool


BTW... We're calling this an "Accidental Discharge" when in fact (and by legal definition) it IS a NEGLIGENT Discharge because that’s what it is…And what we could be charged with.



.

The Bushmaster
September 21, 2007, 02:36 PM
That's what "cause and effect" is..."You screwed up and now you get to pay for it". Same thing...I, personally don't believe in accidents. Only "cause and effect" and "acts of GOD"

Bazooka Joe71
September 21, 2007, 02:56 PM
I am impressed by the fact that with so many ADs noted I didn't see any report of injuries. Like someone said, it takes 2 or more violations to cause injury

Thats because the people that did harm someone would rather not share their story.

I'm not understanding off of this "yet" logic though.:confused:

"yet" just sounds like you are planning on having one...Who plans on it?

kungfuhippie
September 22, 2007, 02:41 AM
I don't think it's inevitable. I hope to God that those reading this will up their awareness and avoid breaking the 4 rules. That they never have a ND. The yet remark is just pointing out that we are all human and capable of error and negligence. Hopefully we can just be negligent in other less hazardous aspects of our lives instead...Like forgetting to raise the mower level and giving the lawn a buzz cut, or overfeeding your cat to the point it needs gastric bypass surgery.

Air,Land&Sea
September 22, 2007, 05:56 AM
If I ever have one I'll declare myself unfit for firearm ownership. I consider those who have had one unfit, especially those who think it's funny or some sort of right of passage.

MCgunner
September 22, 2007, 07:14 AM
Yep, when I was a kid, I jacked my .22 several times (a bolt action M512X) to clear it, but when I pulled the trigger, it went bang. Even then, I had sense enough to be muzzle aware and had it pointed at the ground when I pulled the trigger, but it surprised me because I was sure it was empty. After that, having learned my lesson, I check the chamber and look down inside for the orange follower of the magazine tube to make SURE there's nothing in it, then pull the trigger with the bolt handle raised about half way to lower the striker.

I also had a RG revolver fail to catch the sear when I cocked it and fired downrange. I got rid of that POS. It was an accident waiting to happen. That was when I was about 20 years old. I've not had one since, but it just drives home the point to be CAREFUL and follow all the NRA rules about muzzle awareness and such when doing anything with a gun, decocking, loading, cleaning, whatever. Always assume the chamber is charged. That part of gun handling was drilled into me early on, probably why my two incidences ended well.

No matter how safe you think you are, it can happen to you. Follow the safety rules, always, and even if it does happen, you'll probably be fine. But, no matter how well trained you are, you can slip. Remember, when you're handling a gun, do as you would if you are driving (or maybe not if you drive with your cell phone screwed in your ear). But, don't let your concentration slip for one moment. Always follow the safe gun handling rules to the letter and always be muzzle aware.


using the wrong holster and it grabbed the trigger on my Glock 22...nice hole in the ceiling above my dresser.

This is why I no longer just throw all my holsters together in one drawer anymore.

This is why I don't carry Glocks....or RGs. Glock's a fine gun (unlike RG), but I just don't like the trigger design at all. Too much chance of a kaboom even if you follow all the rules. Preach safety all you want, but safe gun design has its merits, too. A revolver, a DAO, or a DA will not go kaboom just from a flimsy holster, a Glock can. And, I sure as HECK wouldn't carry one condition one in a pocket, not even in a good pocket holster all by itself.

I ain't gonna sit here with a holier than thou attitude and point fingers and quote the safety rules. Even if you KNOW the rules, there's always Murphy's law. That's why I don't like Glocks for concealed carry. Revolvers and DA/DAO autos work for me. I shoot them quite well and I don't HAVE to trade a 4 lb trigger pull for safety. I can shoot a DA just fine, I practice a LOT with it. I've not had an AD/ND since I tossed that RG. :D At least I was getting ready to fire, didn't hit the target, though. LOL But, then, with that POS, I rarely hit the target anyway. Guess I shoulda known better than to think a 16 dollar (brand new) revolver, even in 1972 dollars, could be safe to shoot.

Thats because the people that did harm someone would rather not share their story.

I'm not understanding off of this "yet" logic though.

"yet" just sounds like you are planning on having one...Who plans on it?

In my two incidents, the first one was my general unloading routine before crossing the fence and coming in from squirrel hunting in the woods. I took caution to point the gun at the ground before pulling the trigger to check if it was indeed unloaded and to lower the striker. Well, I changed my unloading routine with that rifle after that. The second was a junky POS revolver. I tossed it. I don't buy junk anymore, despite what you may think of Taurus. And, I do avoid guns I don't regard as real safe to tote, even if they're popular and well made. There are some gun designs I just don't like for safety reasons, my opinion, my choice. I learned to shoot DA a long time ago and I'm pretty good at it. I don't need no hair triggers to hit what I'm shooting at.

I think the "yet logic" has to do with murphy's law. Don't think it can ever happen to you? Go ahead and delude yourself. I hope you're right. I know just being startled by those two incidents that really weren't THAT big a deal, made me more aware and more diligent. I mean, in one case I was being extra careful to unload before crossing the fence and the other was a junky gun. Diligence is the key to safety with firearms, I think. I've not had an AD/ND in 35 years, knock on wood and practicing safe gun handling.

Conqueror
September 22, 2007, 10:27 AM
If I ever have one I'll declare myself unfit for firearm ownership. I consider those who have had one unfit, especially those who think it's funny or some sort of right of passage.

You talk a big game, but I bet if you ever launch a .22 into the ground 4 feet away, you're not gonna rush home and put all your firearms on gunbroker.

MCgunner
September 22, 2007, 12:14 PM
Quote:
If I ever have one I'll declare myself unfit for firearm ownership. I consider those who have had one unfit, especially those who think it's funny or some sort of right of passage.

You talk a big game, but I bet if you ever launch a .22 into the ground 4 feet away, you're not gonna rush home and put all your firearms on gunbroker.

Well, I learned from my mistakes, not a quitter. :D

Air,Land&Sea
September 22, 2007, 02:25 PM
Totally unacceptable and I've lived a big game. No excuse and our enemies are loving this thread more than you know.
This isn't baseball.

The Bushmaster
September 22, 2007, 05:10 PM
No it isn't baseball. It's real life...Don't be so paranoid. So the "enemy(?)" reads all this...Big deal...I haven't seen any of them walk on water lately...In fact. Just the opposit...

For crying out loud...Ease up people. Now if you are perfect we'll just have to nail you to a cross again...:D

CWL
September 22, 2007, 05:23 PM
Totally unacceptable and I've lived a big game.

Why don't you post your credentials, or if you are shy, send them to one of our Moderators and have them back up your "game"?

MCgunner
September 22, 2007, 05:56 PM
I knew an extremely experienced gunsmith that shot himself in the leg. Hey, it happens. He's the only one I've ever known that actually got shot. He was tuning a 9mm, shoulda been using dummy ammo. I don't know the details other than that.

win71
September 22, 2007, 06:06 PM
Totally unacceptable and I've lived a big game. No excuse and our enemies are loving this thread more than you know.
This isn't baseball.
__________________
Freedom of speech does not excuse you from freedom of thought.

Air,Land&Sea
September 22, 2007, 11:46 PM
This should cover it:

The Bushmaster
September 23, 2007, 10:09 AM
WELL now...That explains a lot...YES in deedee....

Conqueror
September 23, 2007, 05:33 PM
No excuse and our enemies are loving this thread more than you know.

Yeah, by all means let's be shadowy and never admit that gun owners are humans and fallible just like everyone else. If we never talk about NDs the antis will forget they happen.

[/dripping sarcasm]

XD-40 Shooter
September 23, 2007, 06:53 PM
I haven't had a negligent discharge and I hope I never do. I follow strict adherence to the four rules, I am confident that I won't have an ND, but on the other hand, s*** happens. So far, so good, 12 years of shooting and nowhere close to an ND.

Bushwhacker
September 23, 2007, 06:59 PM
Never have and pray I never do! I follow the safety rules pretty strictly.

mokin
September 24, 2007, 09:54 PM
Once while taking the safety off on a Carcano carbine and once while loading a magazine in a modified SKS. After a little research I learned that Carcanos have a reputation for dubious safeties. As for the SKS it turned out that the forward edge of the magazine hooked into a recess just behind a bar that releases the hammer. (I looked real hard for the problem with this rifle and was able to duplicate it). As I was just familurizing myself with these weapons I was being especially aware of what I was doing as well as careful. My finger was nowhere the inside of the trigger guard either time. Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction and don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

XD-40 Shooter
September 24, 2007, 11:02 PM
Wow, 34% of the folks here at THR have had an ND.:eek::scrutiny::uhoh: This number is just a little surprising to me, as most of us here are very experienced gunnies.

woodybrighton
September 25, 2007, 04:00 AM
one from iraq senior officer unloading his browning at the loading point BANG.
operations room gets on the radio "that was close anyone get a shot rep"
yes about 1o metres behind me
ops room so it was an nd?
I don't know I'll go and ask:evil:
to general excuse me sir did you mean to shoot the loading bay?:evil:
:cuss: was the reply
I mean how many times do you get the chance to bait a general and get away with it:neener:.

The Bushmaster
September 25, 2007, 10:43 AM
Makes your day...Doesn't it Woody...;) :D

Conqueror
September 25, 2007, 11:00 AM
Wow, 34% of the folks here at THR have had an ND. This number is just a little surprising to me, as most of us here are very experienced gunnies.

I think that reinforces what a lot of us have been saying - NDs can and do happen to anyone. No one is 100% immune to them. You can be 99.99999% immune to them and still have a bad moment and shoot the garage floor. This website, as you pointed out, is full of people who are experienced shooters - but IMO, that makes it MORE likely that we've had NDs.

Let's say a person's chance of an ND is 1 per 100,000 shots fired. A person who only shoots once a year is unlikely to have an ND in his lifetime. But a person who shoots 10,000 rounds of rimfire and 5,000 of centerfire a year (probably common among THR members) will have one, on average, every 7 years.

The Bushmaster
September 25, 2007, 02:14 PM
Every 7 years?? God I hope not!!! I haven't had on in 40 years or more. What you are saying is that I'm due for a bunch to catch up;)...NO NO NO!!!:D

twodawgs
September 25, 2007, 02:33 PM
I haven't read all the replies yet but was wondering if anybody mentioned the warning billboard on Ruger Barrels or the major recalls from outfits like Remington for AD's on safety release.

Don't need to ask or wonder, I had a BHP that went full auto. The sear simply decided to puke and it was off to the races. That's an axciting event if one survives.

The Bushmaster
September 25, 2007, 03:51 PM
OUCH!! Yup...And I bet you used to have four dawgs...:D

ninja45
September 25, 2007, 06:11 PM
I had ND one night many moons ago as I decided to have a Condition 2 Beretta S70 .22 pistol. My thumb slipped as I was holding on the hammer as I squeeze the trigger. Luckily, I obeyed Rule #3, "Do not point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy." I really hated that bedroom floor!

Stevie-Ray
September 25, 2007, 07:50 PM
My ND was an unintentional double-tap into a 7 yard target while I was still getting used to my new Kimber UCDP's trigger. Scary even then.

MCgunner
September 25, 2007, 08:47 PM
My ND was an unintentional double-tap into a 7 yard target while I was still getting used to my new Kimber UCDP's trigger. Scary even then.

Now, imagine you've drawn that gun and are getting ready IN CASE you have to shoot, and you shoot it anyway and the BG turns out to be unarmed. Imagine how impossible that light SA trigger is to control when you're pumped with adrenalin.

That's why I don't like to carry anything single action condition one. I prefer DA guns for defense.

Mad Magyar
September 26, 2007, 08:38 AM
Let's say a person's chance of an ND is 1 per 100,000 shots fired. A person who only shoots once a year is unlikely to have an ND in his lifetime. But a person who shoots 10,000 rounds of rimfire and 5,000 of centerfire a year (probably common among THR members) will have one, on average, every 7 years..
What????:confused: Math is good, but the premise: faulty....
I think that reinforces what a lot of us have been saying - NDs can and do happen to anyone. No one is 100% immune to them.
Don't go by the poll or data on this or any forum....This & other forums represents a small minority of gun owners in this country. Many join because they have problems with their firearm that might be conducive to such ND's and reliability factors. You are correct in one assumption: if you go by the poll conducted, IIRC, Guns & Ammo a year ago; vast majority do little, if any, shooting now-a-days...
Comparing ND's to the likelihood of auto accidents suggested earlier is not sound. We alone control the variables when we have gun in hand, the auto scenario involves the other driver which is beyond our control....:rolleyes:

Conqueror
September 26, 2007, 11:13 AM
^^^fine then, restrict the analogy to accidents caused by the driver (there are millions) and the analogy is still valid.

I'm not sure why you think my premise is faulty. 1 ND per 100,000 rounds is a 99.999% safety rate. 1 ND per million rounds is 99.9999% safety. I think you would agree that it is impossible to 100% guarantee a person will never have an ND. Even if you go to one ND per million rounds fired, that's 1 every 70 years, or roughly 1 per lifetime of shooting. And I'd bet money the national rate of unintended discharge is higher than 1 per million rounds fired.

easyg
September 26, 2007, 01:19 PM
Maximum1:
BTW... We're calling this an "Accidental Discharge" when in fact (and by legal definition) it IS a NEGLIGENT Discharge because that’s what it is…And what we could be charged with.
Please post a link that backs up this claim.
I would like to know exactly where you get you info on "LEGAL DEFINITIONS".

If I recall correctly, only military personnel can be legally charged with "negligent or accidental discharge", not civilians.

Maximum1
September 27, 2007, 11:39 AM
All you have to do is a little research on the topic (GOOGLE) and you'll find THOUSANDS of examples (and laws on the books) which back up my statement regarding "negligent discharge of a firearm. Here's just an infinitesimal sampling;

“two counts of reckless discharge of a dangerous weapon”
“Shooting a rifle through your neighbors' homes, even if accidentally, can get you charged.”

Here’s a “sampling” of State Law(s) (this one from Connecticut) which have laws on the books that call for any citizen who discharges a firearm reckless will be charged with “charged with reckless endangerment, breach of peace, and unlawful discharge of a firearm.” Duh!

“Ramirez, 28, has been charged with negligent discharge of a firearm”
“HUNTER CHARGED ... Searles is charged with negligent use of and careless discharge of a firearm”

“charged with assault with a deadly weapon and negligent discharge of a firearm”

In California (like in MANY States), there ARE specifics laws on the books which police and aggressive PROCUCUTORS use to charge citizens with negligent discharge of a firearm… “charged with 246.3 PC Negligent discharge of a firearm." person charged with246.3 PC "...was arrested and charged with 246.3 PC Negligent discharge of a firearm”


Just for the heck of it…This comes from a Police blog about the topic…Opinion yes, but here’s how police view it and think about the term, “accidental discharge”

“That term (accidental discharge) needs to go away. There’s no such thing as an “accidental discharge.” Period! The four safety rules of weapons handling are there for a reason. You are negligent in your actions if you fail to safely maintain your weapon and should be charged accordingly.
BTW, I am not stating nor do I claim 100% one will be charged with negligent discharge of a firearm...But reality in today's litigious world you're very like to be charged with that by an aggressive prosecutor than simply having it classified as a "accidental discharge”. That’s Criminal Law…The civil side of the law leaves you very venerable financially if someone files a suit against you for “negligent discharge of a firearm”.

So go ahead and ignore the facts…I for one, realize how serious the offense is.


BTW, where's your DATA which backs up your claim?
.

buzz_knox
September 27, 2007, 12:14 PM
“That term (accidental discharge) needs to go away. There’s no such thing as an “accidental discharge.”

Not exactly. An accidental discharge properly refers to a mechanical failure of a weapon or some other unintended discharge not caused by human negligence. Those do occur and a person would not be charged in such a circumstance.

Maximum1
September 27, 2007, 05:39 PM
"Not exactly. An accidental discharge properly refers to a mechanical failure of a weapon or some other unintended discharge not caused by human negligence."


Nice attempt at hijacking I don't believe for one minute those who replied YES this poll were as a result of mechnical rather than human. I would venture a guess mechnical failure are a minuscule number and rare compared to human inducted discharges so please let's try to stay on topic.

Maximum1
September 27, 2007, 05:40 PM
"Not exactly. An accidental discharge properly refers to a mechanical failure of a weapon or some other unintended discharge not caused by human negligence."


Nice attempt at hijacking but frankly I don't believe for one minute those whom replied YES to this poll were as a result of mechnical rather than human. I would venture a guess mechnical failures are a minuscule number and rare compared to human inducted discharges so please let's try to stay on topic.

easyg
September 27, 2007, 07:04 PM
I think you could only be charged if you endangered someone with the accidental discharge.

If you're in your own basement and you accidentally shot the floor, I don't see that you have broken any laws.

PhrankKastle
September 27, 2007, 08:24 PM
I just had my AD about 2 1/2 months ago, I had purchased a S&W M&P 9mm Compact and went to put it thru its paces, the first 12 rd Mag went well and as I put in the fresh mag I released the slide and about crapped myself when the gun discharged and I made a nice hole in the ground about 2 feet in front of me. I could not get the pistol to repeat this but it reaffirmed my dislike for striker weapons and I will stick with my Sig 239 for my everyday carry needs.

gravel
September 28, 2007, 12:34 AM
1955, buttloading Winchester 22 while resting barrel on foot. Kept it out of the snow that way. Finished loading, pheasant flew up about 3 feet away and I shot my foot. Still have little blue spot between my toes. Yes, it did get infected. Surprised that teen has made it to just about 70.

buzz_knox
September 28, 2007, 09:23 AM
Nice attempt at hijacking but frankly I don't believe for one minute those whom replied YES to this poll were as a result of mechnical rather than human. I would venture a guess mechnical failures are a minuscule number and rare compared to human inducted discharges so please let's try to stay on topic.

No attempt at hijacking. You just made a declarative statement that accidental discharges didn't exist, which is completely untrue.

The Annoyed Man
October 16, 2007, 10:29 PM
I had one ND back in 1996. I had recently bought my S&W Model 29 about 2 weeks prior. I remembered that I had put it away, locked in a case, but still loaded. So I got it out, opened the cylinder, and dumped the rounds into my hand. I looked at the rounds and said to myself "yeah, that looks like six." I was holding the the pistol vertically, pointed at the ceiling, in my left hand, near my left ear, and started cocking the hammer and feeling the single action let off. I did it 2 or 3 times, and then the world went silent.

I was deaf in the left ear for 2 weeks, and the right ear for a few hours. Ever since then, I always visually inspect all chambers, and then I do it again to be sure, and then I stick my pinky finger in there just to be sure. You can NEVER be too careful.

The round was a 240 gr JHP. It hit the plaster ceiling right next to the wall. It must have hit a joist or some other beam in the attic, because I was unable to find and recover it, and I inspected the roof thoroughly for holes. There were none. This was an old house with old style lathe and plaster walls and ceilings instead of drywall.

I'm just very greatful that nobody got hurt, and I learned my lesson for certain. That still stands as the dumbest thing I ever did.

esq_stu
October 16, 2007, 10:37 PM
totally negligent

cleared a gun (I thought) by racking to eject the chambered round . . .
didn't wonder why the slide didn't lock open (if there were either no mag or a loaded mag, it wouldn't lock open) . . .
didn't use the decocker or check the chamber . . . bang
:uhoh:

Gator
October 17, 2007, 12:23 AM
Fortunately mine was with an M60 loaded with blanks...not that it made the Sgt. go any easier on me :uhoh:

mekender
October 17, 2007, 01:42 AM
ive always said, never trust a mechanic that has all of his finger tips intact, never trust a carpenter without a black fingernail, and never trust a chef that doesnt have a knife scar on his finger... because those people have never learned what not to do.... on the same token, those same people with multiple wounds didnt learn the first time...

i had a ND once and it scared me to death... was playing in my cousins room one day and i saw his old howdy doody gun belt... next thing i knew, bang, the cap gun went off... the whole family runs in scared... i was but about 6 or 7 and never have had anything like that again...

i always double check the action of my weapons after im done firing them, and ill even intentionally dry-fire down range just to be extra safe... id rather replace a firing pin than my foot... i count my shots carefully, and know in detail exactly how many rounds each weapon will hold... also, i make sure that every casing is ejected properly... my most common shooter is an old .22 that doesnt like to spit out every empty shell so ive learned to be extra careful...

in addition, ive still got this uncanny feeling that if i were to ever point a gun at someone that i didnt want to kill, that a 6'2" big black USMC master sergeant would hop out from behind a tree and stomp my ass into the ground... its amazing what getting weapons training from someone like that will do to your prolonged psyche

possum
October 17, 2007, 02:11 AM
no i have not.

Trempel
October 17, 2007, 04:35 AM
I've been shooting for 10 years. I shoot pretty often and handle guns daily. I carry daily also and that weapon is always with a full magazine and round chambered. I haven't had any accidental, or whatever you want to call them, shots fired and I don't intend for that to happen, ever. No discharges due to mechanical problems either, but that's a different cup of tea.

I don't buy the thinking that this is inevitable and will happen to everyone. If it does happen with me, it'll be 100% my fault and not a result of some cosmic fate.

Flintknapper
October 17, 2007, 10:02 AM
I've been shooting for over 40 years and have never had an AD/ND.

That equates to hundreds of thousands of rounds of Pistol, Rifle and Shotgun ammo. So, its doable.

I do not buy into the "if you haven't had one yet...you will" mentality.

Short of a "mechanical" failure, there should be no reason for one to occur except the person involved was inattentive or careless with their gun handling.

hceptj
October 17, 2007, 12:41 PM
yes...when i was 14, all my fault...that was about 28 years ago...does that mean I'm due for 4 in a row soon based on the 7 yr expectation...??? ;)

p.s. as for the "mechanic with all his fingertips intact" comment...i've been a maintenance/construction guy since I graduated high school and still have all of mine, but thats probably due to the time in the Navy and learning to do things safely and right the first time...:)

Gustav
October 17, 2007, 01:07 PM
A negligent discharge seen way to close and personal happened thanks to a "friend" showing me an empty shotgun while swinging it all around he almost took my head off when he took aim and swung at one of my moms antique plates displayed on a wall right over my head (always check the chamber:eek:).

Had a customized old Mauser go off at the range when trying it out, The safety when released allowed the striker and firing pin to go forward and discharge the chambered round, Luckily it was on sandbags and pointed downrange in a safe direction.:eek:

Most people I know have had at least one AD/ND however due to many reasons some will never admit it especially in public or an open forum which is a shame.

Better to learn from mistakes both ADs and NDs they are going to happen but by sharing we can greatly increase awareness and learn from each others mistakes so they are less likely to be repeated.

Most can be prevented with common sense and in following the basic rules of safety.
Our sport and hobby has enough enemies and gets enough bad press lets not give them any more ammunition to use against us.

The Annoyed Man
October 18, 2007, 07:18 AM
I don't buy the thinking that this is inevitable and will happen to everyone. If it does happen with me, it'll be 100% my fault and not a result of some cosmic fate.Trempel, I think you'll find that 100% of us who said we had an NG, and not an AG, agree with you completely. Over the years, I've talked to a number of people who said they had ONE NG and ONE only. I've also talked to a couple who said they had more than one AG. I won't go shooting with them because they manifestly did not learn from their experience. Darwin Award winners in waiting.

Papaster
October 19, 2007, 02:13 PM
I agree with others here, it's called "negligent discharge." The closest I've been is squeezing off a round while pointed down range but not on my intended point of aim yet. I've never had a negligent discharge. Safety lies between the human ears.

Dallas Jack
October 20, 2007, 08:20 AM
1 ND, in the house, into the fireplace. Nothing hurt but my ego.
Dallas Jack

trickyrick
October 20, 2007, 12:15 PM
i have a rem 700 in 7mm. while elk hunting, i chambered a round as i was scoping in on a cow. i was not able to take the shot and returned to the truck to meet up w/ others. we decided to try elsewhere so i went to open the bolt to empty chamber. saftey would not allow bolt to open. w/ muzzle pointed down range (out of habit) i released the saftey and gun discharged killing the only thing we got all hunt long, a tree. 4 fingers of right hand were on grip and thumb was on saftey. came home and googled and found out rem knew about this problem and decided 25000 out of 1 million did not qualify for a recall. (their fix was to place saftey adds in major publications) now the rem 600 had similar probs and 1/2 produced were affected so there was a recall iirc. luckily i practice gun saftey and its become second nature. scared the poop out of me and friend standing in front of me, (after he realized i did not do it to startle him).

MCgunner
October 20, 2007, 01:54 PM
My uncle had a similar incident with a Savage 340 in .30-30 I sold him. He sold it, but I know the set screw probably got loose on it. My 110 had a screw that adjusts the safety engagement that you must adjust when adjusting the trigger. I never looked at that 340, but it might have had the same set up.

Anyway, it CAN happen for sure. Remington has modified the 700s. My M7 will not lock the bolt when on safe. That was the cheap way out. My Savage has a safety on, but bolt unlocked mode sorta like the old pre 64 Winchester M70s, good to have. My M7's bolt doesn't lift easily since I neck size cases and case tension keeps the bolt down, but I still think it's chicken poop they wouldn't design a safety that could unlock the bolt and still be in safe for unloading rather than just doing away with the bolt lock.

And yes, I would call this an AD, not an ND. It is hardware induced.

jjminch
October 20, 2007, 04:26 PM
Never, not once. There is nothing accidental about it, it's effin' negligent. That's what I told my soldiers (former Drill Sergeant), and that's what I tell everyone else. If it's mechanical it's a deadlined firearm. Not your fault, and hopefully the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction.

At least some of the shooters on here were man enough to admit to it.

jwxspoon
October 20, 2007, 07:32 PM
Yes I have. My best friend's new .45 ACP in my home office as he showed me his new Colt Defender. I took his weapon, unloaded it, and showed him the similarities between his new weapon and my SA Micro Compact .45

When I went to put my SA away, my friend reloaded his weapon, unknown to me. Over the next 5 minutes he asked me how to disassemble his new .45 and I went to show him how the 3" .45's need a clamp over the guide rod, etc. In the process I chambered a round in his .45 without realizing it.

13 years of Army made me reflexively point his weapon at the ground and pull the trigger. You could have knocked us both over with a feather when it went off into the carpet in my office.

NorCalAl
October 20, 2007, 08:49 PM
Never had a ND - but, I was out at a friends property with some other friends and had a new double barrel coach gun. One barrel had a bad hammer detent and while I had it pointed in a safe direction, one of the less, um, intelligent amongst us walked right in front of me after I had the hammers pulled back. As soon as he cleared in front of me, the bad hammer let loose. I would say his life was saved by less than a half-second. Needless to say, I took the gun back.
But I've never been able to shake that experience. Every time I go to the range, I'm thinking more than just about what I'M doing - I'm watching everyone else all the time. I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it. I never asked him why he walked in between me and the targets - it doesn't really matter why.

Maximum1
October 20, 2007, 09:36 PM
Trigger Finger Discipline: is when your barrel is on the target and you intend to fire ONLY THEN is your finger placed on the trigger.


LIVE this rule and you'll elminate accidential discharges...Period.

.

Maximum1
October 20, 2007, 09:40 PM
Never, not once. There is nothing accidental about it, it's effin' negligent.


Absolutely right....NOTHING accidental about it, it's negligence..

MisterPX
October 20, 2007, 10:30 PM
I voted no, since your polling is for AD. I have had a Negligent dischsrge though.

standerson
October 22, 2007, 04:37 AM
I am 50 years old. Been handling firearms for about 40 years. Spent 20 years in the military shooting. We probably shoot 3,000 rounds a year between myself, wife and children.

Never had an AD or ND.

I also do not believe it is inevitable that it will happen to everyone.

What I find difficult to comprehend is that, basically, 1 in 3 people in this thread have had one. Some more that one. One AD/ND might or could be considered an accident. More than one leads me to believe there are some serious safety deficiencies in how that person handles a firearm.

Nix
October 22, 2007, 05:43 AM
well i voted no but i guess you can decide to change that after hearing this story.

When i was 16 years old i was using a .223 rifle doing a little prarie dog slaughtering. Now for me this was practically an art... i would go out and hide... crawl up.. yeah i was a dork but those little bastards can pick you up if your upwind... anyway.

So it was after a long day of prarie dog shooting and i had to urinate so i left the chamber of the .223 open (bolt action) and i walked a couple feet away to do my business. I heard a noise and something had knocked my rifle off of the mound it was sitting on, it rolled twice and in doing so it closed the bolt... and fired. no harm done of course but it still startled me, to this day i dont understand how that happened.

annielulu
October 22, 2007, 06:39 AM
I have had 3 when I first started shooting. All at the range, no damage.

Stupid, but I'm glad I had them and glad the way they happened.

Made me VERY safety conscious. I now am always focused upon my firearm at all times.

I got off cheap.

CoRoMo
October 22, 2007, 08:04 PM
None that I ever recall... but there is still time.

GLOOB
October 22, 2007, 10:20 PM
My one ND was with a rented SIG220. I was bringing it to bear on the target, cocked, and accidentally fired it while putting my finger on the trigger. It was pointing downrange, but the shot completely missed the paper. It was unsettling. I am always working on keeping the trigger finger on the slide until I'm really prepared for a bang, now, but still prefer a slightly heavier trigger for a defensive gun.

But damn that Sig trigger is awesome. I wonder if anyone will every make a DA/SA that decocks itself between shots, but can be manually cocked for precision shooting/hunting... so it works like a DA revolver?

RNB65
October 22, 2007, 10:30 PM
I'm not playing semantics with ND vs AD. I'll just say that I've had two occasions when a gun I was holding fired when I had no intention for it to fire.

The first time was in high school. I was loading my dad's shotgun into my car to go plinking and pulled the trigger to relieve the hammer spring pressure and it fired. Fortunately, I had it pointing straight up at the sky at the time, so the only harm was it scared the living **** of me. That shotty was always kept loaded as the home defense gun and I forgot that the 3 shot plug had been removed and it had an extra shell in the mag. I ejected 3 shells and thought it was empty. It wasn't.

The second time was just recently. The set trigger on my CZ 527 Carbine got so far out of adjustment, that when I set the trigger and released it, it immediately fired. I'm sure the bullet went over the top of the berm since I didn't have the gun shouldered when it happened. I love my CZ Carbine, but I pay very close attention to that set trigger now.

HankB
October 22, 2007, 10:38 PM
The closest I've come to an AD is putting a round downrange before I meant to because of a trigger that was unexpectedly light . . . since the round actually hit the paper - if not the X-ring - I don't feel too guilty about it.

Danman8520
October 22, 2007, 10:45 PM
"Trigger Finger Discipline: is when your barrel is on the target and you intend to fire ONLY THEN is your finger placed on the trigger.


LIVE this rule and you'll eliminate accidental discharges...Period."

So Maximum, You tell me how to safely de-cock a Winchester '94 lever action Rifle with the half cock safety feature after racking one round in the chamber? There is no target nearby, so it is impossible to put the sights on it, and you must pull that trigger for the hammer to get into the safe position.
You simply point the gun in a safe direction then de-cock it. This I AM SAFETY IT WONT HAPPEN TO ME mentality is bull. Accept the fact that it could happen to you. (BTW this scenario was my one ND when I was 11. Cold fingers de-cocking a '94. I knowingly pointed it in a safe direction because I knew that I was going to pull the trigger, but however did not know that the hammer would slip. Now I am always hyper-aware whenever lowering a hammer which will greatly reduce the chances of it happening again, not to say that is impossible.)

gunmn74
October 22, 2007, 11:42 PM
When I was 17 I had a Jennings .22 jamomatic. It came out of my holster
while pheasant hunting on a friends father's land, lost in the snow somewhere.
That next spring his dad found it and returned the rusted pile to me.
I cleaned it up and lubed it and had it cycling well. I was in that friends
Galaxi that night and was showing him how well it cycled when the well
oiled slide slipped from grip slam fireing one round directly into the glovebox.
We were both talking but neither of us could hear a thing. Then the glovebox
fell open and the bullet fell out on my shoe.
That was many years ago and a good lesson to me. The only thing I did
correctly was having the gun pointing in a safe direction.
Same friend a few years later had his Lab step on the trigger of his Deer rifle
in his work Van while pheasant hunting. It sent one round through the dog
house straight into the transmission. He and the dog had a long walk to the
nearest phone.:uhoh:

07Lway
October 23, 2007, 01:25 AM
I had a ND when I was 16 with a .22lr rifle. Luckily it was pointed at the floor. Since then (after months of kicking myself and not handling anything firearm related) I am so careful. I never put my finger anywhere near the trigger, and always keep it in a safe direction. I also re-check the chamber both visually and physically anytime I first pick it up, when I set it down and pick it back up agian, and when I think about setting it down.

You can't be too careful, and never let yourself stop treating firearms with the upmost respect. It only takes one F*ck up to ruin your life and tear a part a family.

SilentArmy
October 23, 2007, 01:44 AM
Had a Slam fire in my AR once while it was in a rest. scared the hell out of me but it hit the target! I was setting up a red dot when it happened. I am religiously cautious about my handguns but certainly not cocky like some of the fools I saw post on TFL! (I didn't read through all these in fear of finding the same fools) It is like a Motorcycle accident... There are those who have crashed and those who have not yet crashed. Which one is better educated? Flame on!

fallingblock
October 25, 2007, 02:21 AM
ND #1 - Rimfire tubular magazines can sometimes having a round stuck in them.
Outcome: Mom sure was disappointed about the hole in my closet door.

ND #2 - Always remove the magazine from an autoloading pistol before cycling the action to clear.
Outcome: Ringing ears and a .45 hole in the plaster wall.

ND #3 - Never assume one can safely decock a loaded hammer gun.
Outcome: Maple leaves rained down and a good 12ga. shell wasted.

All of 'em happened before I was 14.

Haven't had one in the 45 years since.

Musta been a slow learner.:rolleyes:

Zoomer
October 26, 2007, 11:00 AM
My friend blew the transmission out of his Dad's Grand Torino wagon many years ago. While hunting his Dad took the magazine out of his 30--06 and put it in the car - muzzle down. My friend all of 11 at the time hops into the passenger seat sees the mag in his dads hand and the bolt on the gun in the back position. Since he just finished his hunters education class and wants follow the teachers recommendations he wanted to alleviate pressure on the firing pin spring. So he reached over, flipped off the safety and pulled the trigger. Bang. A 180 grain pointed soft point right through the tranny.

Fishman777
October 29, 2007, 01:58 PM
I don't store my guns loaded, nor do I carry. I haven't had any problems and hope that this trend continues.

buzz_knox
October 29, 2007, 02:18 PM
I don't store my guns loaded, nor do I carry. I haven't had any problems and hope that this trend continues.

Most NDs I've heard of have been with "empty" guns or guns being used at the range, so you must be excercising good judgment in terms of safety. Keep that up and you'll see the trend continuing. Just don't rely on not carrying or keeping the weapons empty to do so.

Koos Custodiet
October 29, 2007, 02:27 PM
Just to stir things up a bit :-)

No NDs, but I have an AD every now and then (probably about 4 times a year). And there's nothing wrong with the gun in question (not always the same one).

Explanation : I shoot silhouettes. I borrow guns from a friend. He likes his triggers on the edge of legally light. The first shot very often goes off accidentally before I want it to (and before the hooter blows).

Normally it's a sighter and one can use it as such, even though it wouldn't count towards your score if it were not a sighter.

Anyway, just an different example of what an AD can mean :-)

m21black
October 29, 2007, 03:36 PM
It happened twice the result was two daughters....

The Bushmaster
October 29, 2007, 03:39 PM
m21black...Would you discribe those two as AD's or ND's

Congrats on the two daughters (I really feel sorry for you). I have 4 sons and one daughter. All grown. I attribute my grey hair to my daughter. Now I have 4 grand daughters and two grand sons.

IndridCold
October 29, 2007, 04:11 PM
About 6 years ago I put a .40 hydrashock through my ceiling. I was SURE my gun was unloaded when I pulled the trigger. NDs happen to even the best safest shooters its a fact of life for anyone handling weapons day in and day out. All you can do is best as safe as you can, check, check, and re-check your weapon and hope if you ever have an ND your not muzzling your hand, leg, dog, new plasma TV, ect.

everallm
October 29, 2007, 05:40 PM
Worse AD I was around was when I was in the Army in Belfast.

Patrol came back in after a looooooong night patrol off the Falls Road. Patrol went to the clearance bays, basically individual concrete stalls with a catch trough. What is supposed to happen is you stand in the bay, make sure the weapon is still on safe, remove mag, manually rack the action several times, lock back the working parts, visually and physically inspect and then call to get it inspected and OK'ed.

What happened once, when I was OIC was a slam fire of 18 rounds of 7.62 out of one poor squaddies L1A1 as I was about to inspect and clear. Nobody hurt but I carry two little burn marks below my eye where a casing hit me.

Classic Murphys Law, all the things had to follow in the exact sequence.

The lads had been on back to back patrols for over 2 weeks and where absolutely shattered.
The miscreant had been cleaning his weapon directly before being called to patrol and had actually removed the firing pin.
In a hurry he assembled the weapon and got a small chunk of the cotton cleaning patch stuck at the hammer end of the firing pin.
He now had a fixed protruding firing pin
Goes on patrol, weapon cold, 20 round mag, NO round chambered as per SOP
Comes back in, goes to the clearance bay, doesn't drop the mag
Hauls the working parts back twice, doesn't hear the 2 rounds being ejected
The hold open doesn't catch, calls me,
Hand off the cocking handle, working parts slam forward, chambers a round and before it locks, the firing pin slams the round.
Worn parts in the trigger assembly as well

Instant uncontrolled fully automatic

Oooooooh the paperwork

phoglund
October 29, 2007, 06:44 PM
I've had two ND in 25+ years of shooting. Yes, they were indeed negligent. Both oddly enough with the same single action .22 caliber revolver. Since that gun represents but 2.5% of my collection (Pop quiz: How many guns in my collection based on what I've just told you? :p) Both had the firearm pointed in a safe direction. I guess that's why there are 4 rules...so you can break one or two and still not cause too much damage.

Those of you who have had absolutely no safety violations with your guns and no ADs or NDs don't get too smug or you will just look silly if you ever do have a ND. Remember humans are fallible.*


*If you can walk on water, please disregard these last two sentences.

islandphish
October 29, 2007, 07:27 PM
my ear is just recovering from a ND i witnessed this weekend. The jerk was drinking. He's lucky I didn't stuff the rifle down his throat and I'll never talk to him again.

sleeperj21
October 29, 2007, 10:12 PM
Ok after haveing more then 1 go off I dont think you should be around guns any more bro.

woerm
October 30, 2007, 12:13 AM
all *three* times :what: in process of putting saftey on or off on rifles.:eek:

began to suspect the French Generals that designed the Berthier/Lebel may have been on to something (no saftey).

r

thank God for remembering Rule 1

Mumbles_45
October 30, 2007, 04:48 AM
I've had one. Firing an Anschutz .22 with about a 0 lb trigger, shifted it on it's rest and it went off. The round still went downrange, but I consider it an ND.

WVMountainBoy
October 30, 2007, 06:51 AM
Haven't had one myself, been a bystander to a nasty one. A man who shall remain nameless got a new gun and went to the range. While there he shot the gun and allowed his son to shoot it. Upon their return home, he called me over and wanted to show it off. I asked how hard it was to break down, as its a question I always ask upon looking at a new gun and he attempted to show me. He was sitting indian style on the floor and this model is a striker fire, you have to pull the trigger during the dissassembly process...he pulls and puts a 9mm +P right through his calf and into the hardwood. Nasty wound, though luckily the bullet had little time to expand in his leg. Scared the hell out of me and I actually did the dive to the floor bit... He was very embarrassed and had a lot of explaining to do to friends and family about his carelessness

standerson
October 30, 2007, 08:34 AM
I havn't had my negligent/accidental discharge yet.


Accidental: Mechanical problem with the handgun
Negligent: Problem with the "nut" that holds the trigger.

I do not believe everyone will have a negligent discharge. If you follow the basic safety rules of handling a firearm, you will not have one.

romma
October 30, 2007, 09:23 AM
I was at the receiving end of one when I was 14..

everallm
October 30, 2007, 09:34 AM
Standerson,

I do not believe everyone will have a negligent discharge. If you follow the basic safety rules of handling a firearm, you will not have one.

The first part of the comment is statistically likely, the second is extraordinarily improbable as a human is not a fault free machine.

Both Murphys Law as well a the Law of Unintended Consequences make it vanishingly unlikely that any individual will be fault free for a life time.

For example

The more frequently you use weapons, the better your "reflexes" etc will be with regard to good practice and the more comfortable you will be.

Unfortunately the flip side is "familiarity breeds contempt", "it's never happened to me, so it can't happen to me", statistically the probability of failure remains the same but the probability of occurance increase.

The less frequently you use weapons, the worse your reflexes will be with regard to good practice and the less comfortable you will be.

The flip side is that you tend to be more careful and meticulous so the probability of failure remains higher but the probability of occurance decreases.

At the end of the day, prepare for the worst and you'll never be disappointed

WinkingTiger
October 30, 2007, 04:43 PM
Back when I knew nothing about revolvers I had two bullets left to shoot out of a S&W J Frame Revolver. I was going to let a friend have the last two shots. I though it would be a good idea to pull the trigger to line up the bullets so the next trigger pull would fire.

I did not KNOW which way the cylinder revolved. The gun when off while I was in the middle of talking to my buddy. I was immediately in shock as I could not beleive that it went off. The gun was pointed downrage but the bullet bounced off the floor and hit the backstop.

BridgeWalker
October 30, 2007, 04:58 PM
I don't know if I did or not. A weird thing happened at the range the other day. No one else seemed shook up but it rattled the heck out of me.

I've been working on a couple points of technique in my trapshooting. I was probably working on too many things at once. This whole episode had that weird slow time one gets when working intensely on something, so I experienced it as mounting the gun, checking my mount, pointing the gun to the correct spot and looking for the bird. Finger off the trigger throughout.

Then I put my finger on the trigger and fired. Didn't call for the bird, didn't swing the gun up at all. Spattered the trap house with shot.

I sure fired the gun, but somehow I just did it so out order that I ended up placing the shot, um, very, very, very not in the right spot. Of course, it was pointed downrange and it was my turn and everyone was ready for me to fire. I was just thinking about too many things and let myself get tripped up. But boy, did that shot surprise me. Wasn't expecting that at all.

DuncanSA
October 30, 2007, 06:32 PM
I had a really bad one back in the dark ages, in a far-away betrayed land called Rhodesia. In the late 1950's a friend and I retraced on horseback, with a packhorse to carry the junk, the old "pioneer trail". I thought I had trained my horse to accept gunfire and it stood well to fire from the saddle.

One morning at about 0600 we going around a maize field when I spotted a duiker (a small antelope) at close range. We needed meat and, not wanting to startle it by pulling my rifle out of the scabard, I drew my belt gun and shot at it. The horse went crazy - I still don't know why, maybe leopard scent.

There we were, horse bolting madly through the scrub and trees, me trying to stop the d**n thing with my left hand on the reins and my right hand holding a cocked and ready-to-fire 1908 Navy model Luger. This is where stupidity set in. I put both hands on the reins, pulled up the horse, the pistol fired and I felt a blow to my left thigh. I realised that one factor I could then well do without was a loaded pistol, so I threw it over my shoulder, hoping that wherever it landed it would not cause more problems.

The story ends with a "no fun" 17 mile ride to the nearest country store and 4 hours in the back of a truck to a hospital where the surgeon complemented me on placing the shot "so neatly between the femoral artery and the bone". Jokers like that I don't need!

Sorry if I have bored you guys, I seem to have got a bit carried away with this yarn. It happened, but I have never got to writing it down before.

Flintlock Tom
October 30, 2007, 06:59 PM
phoglund,

40!
Ha.

mekender
October 31, 2007, 10:22 PM
Rhodesia

i believe that us younger folks would call that Zimbabwe correct?

met a guy years back that had enlisted in the Rhodesian army after Vietnam.... couldnt adjust to normal society after the things he had to do in war so he became a merc...

phoglund
November 1, 2007, 12:53 PM
Flintlock Tom: If you ever show up in Southwest Montana and are of drinking age...I owe you a beer as the first one to answer correctly!

SamTuckerMTNMAN
November 1, 2007, 01:04 PM
but thats also why I am very strict with myself and others about range discipline. I was on target using a relatively new weapon, kept weapon on target to activate safety switch and made the mistake of placing counter opposing appendage on trigger guard for necessary torque to activate said safety. Of course, it wasnt the trigger guard, itwas the trigger. .308 in the face will remind a lifelong, avid, active, shooter, that everyone should always practice range discipline and cycle snap caps in various conditions if possible before going out in the field/range.

st

dasmi
November 1, 2007, 01:06 PM
The only unexpected discharge I had was with a Phoenix HP22. I had the safety on, and the weapon pointed down range. Just for giggles, I decided to test the safety. It didn't work.

silverking
November 1, 2007, 03:37 PM
Been an off and on deer hunter since 1958 and have never had any nd's or "accidents". I am new to the handgun world and have had my ccw for under a year. I stay very consious to all the rules of safety and I can only hope I don't violate those rules through carelessness or by being too sure of myself to the point of an accident. If I find, as my age advances, that I am not too confidant of my ability to properly handle a weapon, I'll hang 'em up and take up something safer, like skydiving!:eek::eek:

North of 49th
November 1, 2007, 11:30 PM
never had one. Not yet anyways. Hope i never have one either. Particularily with a high power something or other. those recoils can be downright painful if you are not prepared

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