"Knock" warrant, cop shot dead


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TheeBadOne
July 8, 2003, 07:00 AM
Deputy Sheriff George Monroe Selby
Shelby County Sheriff's Department, TN
End of Watch: Wednesday, December 4, 2002

Age: 32
Tour of Duty: 8 yr

Deputy Selby was shot and killed as he and other members of the Narcotics Unit attempted to serve a warrant at a home in the Frayser neighborhood in northern Memphis at approximately 2000 hours. The deputies knocked on the door and identified themselves. No one answered the doors and moments later shots were fired from inside the home. Deputy Selby was struck in the shoulder in an area not protected by his vest. He was transported to Regional Medical Center where he succumbed to his wounds.

One of the suspects was shot and wounded and both were taken into custody.

Deputy Selby had been with the agency for eight years and had been assigned to the Narcotics Unit for two years. He is survived by his wife and two children.

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keyhole
July 8, 2003, 08:30 AM
:(

This serves as a reminder of how hard the job can be, and the goal of every officer, to go home at the and of each shift. My prayers for the family.

brownie0486
July 8, 2003, 09:06 AM
He gave the ultimate sacrifice and we have lost another brother officer.

Prayers to the family

Brownie

brookstexas
July 8, 2003, 09:07 AM
First let me say it is tragic when a public servant dies.

You are dead asleep on the couch, you awaken to pounding, someone breaking in and yelling "Obendohnowbrgthdsghtmushgibberish".
There is a game being played in many locals which endanger the cops and public.
Police know once they identify themselves evidence can be destroyed etc. so it becomes let's do the legal minimum so fast it's lost value.
You are dead asleep on the couch, you awaken to pounding, someone breaking in and yelling "Obendohnowbrgthdsghtmushgibberish".

Don Gwinn
July 8, 2003, 09:49 AM
That certainly happens, but in this case it doesn't look likely. The shots were fired through the door, so they must not have smashed it open instantly, right?

TheeBadOne
July 8, 2003, 10:07 AM
Correct Don, they knocked, announced, and waited for a response, and got one. Unfortunately it was gunfire through the door. :(

brookstexas
July 8, 2003, 10:09 AM
someones self defense instincts.
I KNOW the rest of us would have let them come through the door and asked for I.D. before shooting. ;)

Greg L
July 8, 2003, 10:21 AM
My sympathies to the officer's family.

:scrutiny:

I do need to question though these various drive by postings of events that happened months ago with no tie in to anything current. This one in particular happened 7 months ago. The "Cop Killer Rhino Ammo" thread was first posted 5 days ago yet the event occurred 6 months ago. What's the point? That someone involved in something that can be high risk got killed doing their job? Well ok, then how about the highway worker who gets hit by a piece of machinery or the fireman caught in a fire. We've had both of those happen near here much more recently than either of these two policemen, yet neither one of them made the "TBO General Discussion Obituary Page".

I've got friends on the local force and while it would tear my heart out if one of them got killed it really is only a local story (as it should be because those are the people who knew him best). It seems like it would only get national/widespread attention if it was a slow news day / he died in an unusual or spectacular manner / or the media had a certain agenda they wanted to push and these circumstances fit in that box.

Just wondering.

Greg

Zundfolge
July 8, 2003, 10:25 AM
The door open or closed makes no difference to

someones self defense instincts.
I KNOW the rest of us would have let them come through the door and asked for I.D. before shooting.

I think you short change most of us here.

Most of us here are devotees to the 4 rules ... Rule #4 is "Know your target and whats behind it"


I believe most of us would have called 911 to verify that the people at the door where indeed real police, but none of us would have fired through the door not knowing who we where shooting at (then again maybe these guys did follow rule 4 and they wanted to shoot cops)

Tamara
July 8, 2003, 12:23 PM
Another senseless, useless casualty in the WO(S)D.

brookstexas
July 8, 2003, 12:59 PM
I think you get the plain sense award for that comment, sad and true...

Duncan Idaho
July 8, 2003, 03:58 PM
I KNOW the rest of us would have let them come through the door and asked for I.D. before shooting. They didn't come through the door. The shots that killed the policeman came through the door.

someones self defense instincts.It isn't self-defense when one isn't being threatened with deadly force. Killing a person (by shooting them through a door/wall) that has identified himself as a police officer serving a search warrant is still called murder. You cop-killer cheerleaders haven't won that one yet. Just so you know.:fire: :fire: :fire: :scrutiny: :barf:

Dorrin79
July 8, 2003, 04:52 PM
I agree with Tamara.

How prevalent were high-speed raids (be they 'knock' or 'no-knock') prior to the War on (some) Drugs?

That's your real 'root cause' here.

My sympathies to the officer and his family.

ojibweindian
July 8, 2003, 05:22 PM
You cop-killer cheerleaders haven't won that one yet.

I don't think anyone on this board cheers when a police officer is murdered.

Chill.

brookstexas
July 8, 2003, 05:45 PM
Please read what I said again.
-Sometimes you can't hear what someone on the other side of the door says, TV is loud, Asleep etc. or said so fast as to be unintelligible.
-I never said ANYONE came through the door, I made a remark that in many cases (Home invasion areas etc.) many folks aren't going to wait until the door comes down.
I look at it this way, if this happens to me-
1-I know it's not cops as they have no reason to arrest me (unless as in many cases they got the house number wrong)
2-If I do hear them say police I might find it bogus and think "home invasion"
3-I doubt I would shoot through a door but I can see how many might out of fear for their life
4-Sorry if you took my statement about how it's tragic to mean I am happy about what happened, not sure how that was misinterpreted

brian0128
July 8, 2003, 06:04 PM
My sympathy is with his family.:(

Duncan Idaho
July 8, 2003, 06:15 PM
Sorry if you took my statement about how it's tragic to mean I am happy about what happened, not sure how that was misinterpretedThat would be because it wasn't.

Maybe you might like to go back to your post and remove the cutsie little wink smilies that you posted, before someone else "misinterprets" what you meant. :rolleyes:

Duncan Idaho
July 8, 2003, 06:18 PM
How prevalent were high-speed raids (be they 'knock' or 'no-knock') prior to the War on (some) Drugs?By "high-speed" I assume that you mean waiting on the other side of the door until fataly shot to death for doing one's job. Right? :barf:

12-34hom
July 8, 2003, 06:25 PM
We are diminished.

12-34hom.

brookstexas
July 8, 2003, 06:53 PM
Look at my first post see any cutsie winks it it????

My second post was about the way I stated that others would get ID after they came through the door before they made up their mind about shooting . Yes that had a ;) after it.
That's like saying Ben Franklin wrote a joke book after he wrote about liberty so he wasn't serious about liberty. Punctuation has a reason.
Some get it, some don't.
Trust me if I felt it WASN'T a shame the cop got killed I would have said so.
BT

Matt G
July 8, 2003, 07:08 PM
How prevalent were high-speed raids (be they 'knock' or 'no-knock') prior to the War on (some) Drugs? That's your real 'root cause' here. My sympathies to the officer and his family.Bull. The root cause to this murder was that a murderer did not want to go to jail for something he was doing illegal. Be it a warrant for felony Possession With Intent To Distribute or a warrant for No Bread In The Bread Box, it was a warrant being served in good faith. Disagree with the law? Fine. Disagree with past tactics? Fine.

But the root cause of this murder was: a man knowingly broke the law for whatever reason (my bet's on greed, but that's an assumption), and then chose to murder an officer rather than go to jail for his actions.

Let's not forget about our individual responsibility, here, okay?

cordex
July 8, 2003, 07:30 PM
Tragic.

A case of entirely unnecessary brutality.

So was this:
http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/0/056422-7230-092.html

Not sure where you were trying to go with the "Knock" warrant, cop shot dead bit.
I think the cop's death was an outrageous murder (regardless of the reason the warrant was issued), but tragedy doesn't justify tyranny. In other words, yeah, his knocking probably gave the perp a chance to kill him, but it's part of the procedure that protects the people who don't spray the door with rifle fire whenever someone knocks on it.

Why didn't you post this on December 5th, 2002?

NapAttack
July 8, 2003, 09:27 PM
This thread brought out an interesting point I'd like some comments on.

I've heard it mentioned before and seen it posted that you can and should call 911 or the police department to verify that these are actually police. How many of you actually believe that the police would wait politely outside the door while you called the police dept to verify their status? Especially if they were there to serve a warrant? I'd especially like to hear from LEOs on this.

I don't want to start a flame war here and I'm not bashing cops. It simply stretches my credibility quotient quite a bit that the police would wait outside the door while you called to verify their status. From the officers I've known and the information I've gathered the minute you asked them to wait while you called the next thing you'd hear would be your door crashing in.

BTW, to put things in perspective, I've never been arrested or had any hassles whatsoever with police, nothing worse than a traffic ticket or several that I richly deserved.

Duncan Idaho
July 8, 2003, 10:14 PM
Look at my first post see any cutsie winks it it????Your first post was some sort of gibberish that had no relationship to the events that are depicted in the story that inspired this thread. To wit:You are dead asleep on the couch, you awaken to pounding, someone breaking in and yelling "Obendohnowbrgthdsghtmushgibberish".Your second post suggests a right of self-defense, in this case murdering a police officer serving a warrant, for those folks who find themselves to be the object of an arrest warrant. That's like saying Ben Franklin wrote a joke book after he wrote about liberty so he wasn't serious about liberty.No. Great analogy though. :rolleyes:

brookstexas
July 8, 2003, 10:52 PM
Rather than bore the forum further I'll give you the last word being that you are a Frank Herbert fan. ;)
BT

bad_dad_brad
July 8, 2003, 11:37 PM
I am very sorry for the loss of a peace officer, and so very sorry for his family. It is a terrible thing. One time I had a deputy sheriff tell me, that serving warrants was one of the most dangerous things an officer has to do.

That said, let me relate a true story:

One of my sons who at the time lived at home then subsequently moved out, had gotten a DUI. A nice kid, but a knuckle head, and he forgot his court date.

Not knowing this, several days later, I was sitting in my back room. I thought I heard the door bell up front. It did not ring again. Then I heard a pounding on my back window and heard the shout "THERE IS A LIGHT ON!" Again a pounding. Scared the sh*t out of me and I grabbed my Glock.

Quietly with stealth I approached my front door and saw THREE city police outside in my front yard talking in their tactical walky talkies. Young guys. I wisely put the pistol aside, opened the door, and calmly asked them what they wanted. The confusion understood, I told them where my son now lived.

But, Gee Whiz folks, that pounding on the window? Un-called for. Of course if I had panicked, and let off a round (which I would never do - but others might) I would be in jail today.

It may be dangerous to serve warrants, but it is also dangerous to pound on people's back windows and scream "THERE IS A LIGHT ON!"

S_O_Laban
July 9, 2003, 03:21 AM
The shoulder wound being fatal is the only thing that susprised me about this story. I am certainly not a Doctor but I'm guessing he was standing sideways in the doorway and the round penetrated on in to his torso?

What is the proper way to serve such a warrant?

Daniel T
July 9, 2003, 05:29 AM
From Matt G.:
Be it a warrant for felony Possession With Intent To Distribute or a warrant for No Bread In The Bread Box, it was a warrant being served in good faith. Disagree with the law? Fine. Disagree with past tactics? Fine.

So what if it was a warrant for felony Possesion of an Assault Weapon?

Molon Labe, no?

Dorrin79
July 9, 2003, 09:15 AM
Let's not forget about our individual responsibility, here, okay?

Matt - you are correct. I was not offering an excuse for the murderer's actions, which were unjustifiable.

However, it is unlikely that the various ingredients resulting in the murder of a police officer would have happened in this case if not for the Wo(S)D.

That was my point in the original, sorry if it was somewhat muddled.

brownie0486
July 9, 2003, 11:10 AM
Some of the people here think it may be acceptable to put a round through the door upon a knock/banging on it by unidentified/unknown people?

If it is a no knock warrant, they won't be knocking. If it a standard warrant they will of course knock and announce their presence as it should be.

Under no circumstances would anyone ever have enough just cause to put a round or two through the door at unidentified individuals outside.

A mob outside your home threatening your family and self still would not become justifiable to put rounds through the door at them.

Home invasion? Home invaders, if they knock won't let you know their intent until you open the door or they will just break it down to enter.

Someone breaking down the front door at any hour would not be reason enough to blast through the door. Course, if you are the panicky type with a quick trigger finger you may, but then you could/possibly would be charged

Until they gain entry, it isn't an invasion, only an attempt at unlawful entry, as in B+E. If you have a gun in your hand at the door, I would presume you would be letting them know you are armed inside and asking/ordering them to cease and desist their actions lest they want to face the weapon upon entry.

I guess the question comes down to

Are you ever prudent/lawful in firing at someone through the door for any reason if all they are doing is attempting entry and not shooting into the home from outside themselves?

Brownie

RustyHammer
July 9, 2003, 12:27 PM
Crash, Bang, Boom ... which came first?

rock jock
July 9, 2003, 12:54 PM
Another senseless, useless casualty in the WO(S)D.
Gosh, w/o drug laws, I'm sure that murderer would be a productive member of society. Dang those laws for making him kill a police officer.:rolleyes:

williamcrane
July 9, 2003, 01:01 PM
In Pennsylvania it would not be self defense to shoot a police officer in the performance of his duties, even if he broke into you house. It's one of the exceptions in Section 5 of the Pa Criminal code regarding Justification for use of legal force.

Of course, if they didn't identify themselves as poice officers and you couldn't see badges, etc, I'm not sure where you stand. Have your gun savvy lawyer on speed dial.

brownie0486
July 9, 2003, 02:06 PM
RustyHammer :

Not sure the jury would be wondering / pondering that question in reality.

If it happened in any order, you still shot a cop.

On the other hand, lets look at this as well:
You find anyone in your home, do you have the right to shoot them if they are not an immediate threat to your person?

Mere presence in your house doesn't mean you can blast away. You still need the elements of self defense present to use deadly force.

Now back to your question. In my state you do NOT have the right to kill another in the protection of property. If an unarmed intruder breaks down your door, and you have the means to defend yourself with a gun, you will probably still need to articulate they were an immediate threat to your person, and that will require more than mere presence in most circumstances.

Brownie

Orthonym
July 9, 2003, 02:38 PM
I believe that up until about 1760 or so, search warrants for anything other than stolen goods did not exist. I think it was better that way.

ojibweindian
July 9, 2003, 03:09 PM
Ya know what brownie? where I live, if a stranger is in my house in the middle of the night, it is presumed he is up to no good and is fair game.

If someone is beating on my door in the middle of the night, trying to get in, and he does not identify himself and state his business, he's fair game. Don't like it? Don't try busting into my house without an invite at 0200.

brownie0486
July 9, 2003, 03:40 PM
ojibweindian :

So your drunk neighbor can't get into your house at 2 am with his keys [ he thinks it's his house ], he says to hell with this [ in a drunken stupor ] and breaks the window and climbs in.

You hear the breaking glass, grab the heater and run downstairs where you see a silhouette of a man standing in your livingroom. You BLAST him, after all, he's fair game right?

You are wrong sir, he's not fair game for killing until he presents a lethal threat to you and meets the three criteria for self defense. Course the good old boys down south may look the other way, but I doubt it. Shooting someone on a presumption is not good advice or theory.

Presumed up to no good is not reason to kill another sir. And if he is beating on your door, what, you shoot through the door as you don't know who he is and he didn't ID himself?

OUCHHHH----------

The LE's may just think differently when you have shot the neighbor. Telling the judge he was fair game might just get you a few years to think about what you are saying here.

Brownie

Duncan Idaho
July 9, 2003, 04:00 PM
Mere presence in your house doesn't mean you can blast away. You still need the elements of self defense present to use deadly force.Sorry brownie0486, it all depends on where the person lives. In WA state where I live, it is perfectly justifiable to open fire on an intruder in one's home.

OTOH if the person opening fire on the "intruder" (i.e. a police officer) is the object of a lawful search/arrest warrant, they would then find themselves indicted for murder.

As for the drunk neighbor, too bad for him. Drunk and stupid is sometimes fatal.

ojibweindian
July 9, 2003, 04:03 PM
yep.

yep.

The way it works in my neck of the woods is simple. If you're breaking into someone's house, you're presumed to be dangerous. If you're smashing through a door or window to get into the house in the wee hours of the morning, neighbor or whatever, you run the risk of developing leaks.

If you don't like it, don't move here.

TheeBadOne
July 9, 2003, 04:11 PM
I guess some think it's more than ok to shoot the drunk neighbor, as it's a consequence of being drunk, but God forbid that a cop might arrest that same drunk for DUI if behind the wheel and he loose his license...(according to some people here too) :rolleyes:

ojibweindian
July 9, 2003, 04:17 PM
Not according to me.

And if the drunk neighbor properly identifies himself while trying to force his way into my house at 0200, I would not shoot.

JShirley
July 9, 2003, 04:28 PM
TBO,

Like some here, I'm a little curious as to your motivation for posting this? Is it to generate discussion on the merits of knock vs no-knock warrant service? Is it to point out that police officers sometimes have a dangerous occupation? Is it to show us that criminals break the law? Is it because you knew this person, and there is some connection he had with our current date, that compels you to bring him back to our attention? Is it to let us know that another of the brotherhood of man has left us (albeit, months ago)? Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks in advance,

John

brownie0486
July 9, 2003, 04:28 PM
So you would ask the person to ID who he was in the shadows in your livingroom at 2am before filling him full of holes? In the scenario given, he is already in the house having broken the window and entered and you grabbed Roscoe to ventilate whoever entered?

If he wasn't the neighbor, he get drilled immediately? No need to determine any further as long as it wasn't the neighbors?

So you would shoot first and ask questions later? Or as you just stated where you ask who they were and then decide to blast em?

Do you think it is reasonable the drunk neighbor would be declaring who he was as he entered the house? Oh, I get it--

The drunk comes through the window and yells to the wife, it's only my dumb ??? honey, I'm drunk, get up and berate me before I pass out here.

Presumption of dangerousness is not just cause for filling another with holes. If that were the case, the sh$$%head who barricaded himself on the warrant would thoroughly expect they were going to just kill him on some type of presumption? Don't think many folks here would appreciate the cops doing that, yet you can state thats your position?

Brownie

ojibweindian
July 9, 2003, 04:46 PM
Brownie

It's really quite simple; don't go busting into other people's houses in the wee hours of the morning if you don't want to run the risk of getting shot. My neighbors are the same way. I would not dare go into their house, uninvited, in the early hours of the morning. To do so would run me a serious risk of injury.

My neighbors will always tell me who they are when knocking on the door at 0200. I do the same.

If my neighbor is drunk at 0200 in the morning, then most likely I am there with him. Regardless, he has enough sense to knock before "entering", as do I.

That's the way it is here. If you don't like it, tough. You don't have to visit.

Byron Quick
July 9, 2003, 06:11 PM
brownie,

You are stating the law as it is in the jurisdictions familiar to you. In Georgia, if you forcibly enter a residence in which you do not reside, no other justification for lethal force is required. The intruder does not need to be armed nor does the resident need to be in fear of his life.

In South Carolina, the Attorney General has directed that ALL such cases be sent to his office for determination...he has indicated that in all cases of forcible entry where the intruder is killed that he will decline to prosecute.

Cosmoline
July 9, 2003, 06:39 PM
There's no way I'd just blow holes through a closed door unless the zombies were rising from the grave and the voice on the other side was demanding "brains!" It's EXTREMELY reckless even in the best case scenario.

brownie0486
July 9, 2003, 07:53 PM
And would the neighbor be knocking if he thought it was his own home as in the scenario?

The laws are different from state to state, of course, does that still give you the right to blast anyone in your home uninvited if they are not threatening you with death by some means readily available to them at that moment?

It might legally in that state, but I'm not so sure it would be justified to kill another for being in your home uninvited. Hell, if thats the case maybe I can move there, get my ex to visit and then plug her as an uninvited guest/intruder. Makes no sense at all, even if the AG/DA thinks so.

Brownie

Sindawe
July 9, 2003, 08:21 PM
An intruder in a home, having gained entrance via B&E is presumed to be intent on harm to the owner/occupant and deadly force may be used to repel intruder and defend oneself from unjury.

Intruder turns out to be the drunken neighbor? Darn. Its a shame the person was too intoxicated to know where there were, but those are the risk one takes when crawling into windows/breaking open doors at night while intoxicated.

Brownie: The circumstance you describe have indeed happend here in Colorado. Shortly after the "Make my day law" was passed and in effect, a mans ex wife showed up on his door step unannounced. He shot and killer her (and her male companion IIRC). Case was dismissed since his lawer successfully argued that the shooter was in fear for his life, and the ex-wife and companion were on his property, the shooting was justified. This was in the mid 1980s, so my details are fuzzy.

I find it baffling that some States require a home occupant to retreat as far as possible, or to be sure that an uninvited 'guest' is a deadly threat before using force to repel intruder.

ojibweindian
July 9, 2003, 09:20 PM
Brownie

I will not take chances with the lives of my family. If someone's trying to get into the house in the wee hours of the morning, he/she had better ID him/herself pretty damn quick, or I will assume they're hostile. I will not chance it. It could be a drunk, it could be a cop, or it could be a few thugs wanting to waste my wife and kids.

Being out in the boonies, it takes 45 minutes for the county Sheriff's office to send a deputy out to my place. Quite a bit can happen in that period of time.

brownie0486
July 9, 2003, 09:44 PM
ojibweindian: Agreed, sometimes I forget we have a populace that lives in remote rural areas.

I actually came from such a place as a kid, and forget ocassionally. Been working the streets too long and need to get back to those days. You are fortunate.

Brownie

TheeBadOne
July 9, 2003, 09:47 PM
I hope everyone has a flashlight with their gun. It's one thing to target, it's another thing to identify that target. A flashlight can prevent a tragedy.

Duncan Idaho
July 9, 2003, 09:47 PM
It might legally in that state, but I'm not so sure it would be justified to kill another for being in your home uninvited. We are not talking about "being in" the home uninvited. The example that you gave was:So your drunk neighbor can't get into your house at 2 am with his keys [ he thinks it's his house ], he says to hell with this [ in a drunken stupor ] and breaks the window and climbs in. The person broke into my house.

I couldn't care less why he did it. I don't care that he is drunk. I don't care that he thinks it is his house. Me, and mine are what count in that moment, nothing else.

If the intruder is family or friend, they will immediately identify themselves. They know me, and they know what to expect when my house has been broken into.

If the intruder(s) are police, then they must know that identifying themselves immediately will be the key to how many of them go home safely that night. If they possess a valid warrant, or probable cause, they will be allowed at that point to execute the warrant. Nothing more, nothing less.

ojibweindian
July 9, 2003, 09:51 PM
I have a "Mag Lite" that I use.

TheeBadOne
July 9, 2003, 09:58 PM
Mag-Lite makes some good ones. I have Mag-lite, Streamlight, and Sure-Fire lights. Every room has a flash light.

Byron Quick
July 9, 2003, 10:02 PM
Target identification is a good thing. No question.

But I live alone. No one has authorized possession of a key to this house except me. If someone is going bump in the night, they have no legitimate business here. I keep a Surefire by my bed. Next to the Mossberg 590A1. Under the circumstances, I'm not real worried about positive ID.

Don Gwinn
July 9, 2003, 11:49 PM
I tried to get through this thread, but I can't go two steps without tripping over a straw man.

capnrik
July 10, 2003, 12:08 AM
Your theoretical drunk would not like my part of Texas. That said....this is not a subject that improves anyones perception of The High Road.

How 'bout them Astros?

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