[MrAcheson]

This July 4th I was at the City of Fairfax fireworks display at Fairfax High School with my girlfriend. While there I saw a man with his family (him, his wife, and 4 kids) wearing a a pro-2nd t-shirt ("2nd Amendment the original homeland security") and large heavy fanny pack on his left hip situated for a good cross draw. Now I couldn't actually see the handgun but I can put two and two together...

In the end I didn't talk to him for three reasons. The first is that I really didn't know how he would react. I didn't want to ruin his 4th for something that only I noticed. Second, it was a very public place so by telling him he was "made", I might "make" him for others. Third, I am not familiar with CCW law in Virginia, but what he was doing would have been a serious no-no in Delaware. So without knowing the consequences of my actions I opted to keep quiet.

My question is this. Should I have given the guy some surreptitious advice about his CCW choices? What would you have done?

[tiberius]

IMHO, you did the right thing... Mind your own friggen business.

[Gordon Fink]

I believe open carry is legal in Virginia. :D

~G. Fink

[Skunkabilly]

Hey, anything that takes the BG's attention off you and onto someone else.....

I prefer to stay away from 'loud' clothing...I saw an older gentleman walk around Pep Boys with an NRA hat on, and see some big buff clean-looking White guys walk around in police themed shirts...:scrutiny:

[JohnBT]

I'm confused. What's unlawful in Delaware...wearing 2nd Amendment t-shirts or heavy fanny packs?

I would have said hi and told him I liked his shirt.

If you can't see the gun it is concealed.

John

[themic]

not supposed to carry on school property though

[E357]

All you "made" was a fanny pack. And how is this your business anyway?
I'm not trying to be rude, but unless your a cop and the guy has his picture up on the wall stay out of it. There are other rights besides the 2nd.

Elliot

[rappa]

I would've 'moved along, there's nothing to see here'. For all you know, he could've had his cellphone, camera and a few Snickers bars in the pack. I've worn my Blackhawk 5-5-10 at a theme park. All I had in it was my wallet, keys and camera. You did the right thing by respecting that man's privacy and right to carry concealed!

prefer to stay away from 'loud' clothing...I saw an older gentleman walk around Pep Boys with an NRA hat on, and see some big buff clean-looking White guys walk around in police themed shirts...

I agree. No LEO or gun themed clothing for me. Concealed means concealed. The less I stand out, the better.

[MrAcheson]

We were at a sports stadium and on school property. I know school property is an issue in Delaware and I believe DE has a sporting venue clause too. I don't know anything about Virginia.

I would want someone to tell me if I was printing or being obvious. This guy was obvious enough to draw my attention. I wasn't looking for people carrying weapons, but I noticed him as soon as I saw him. Was he concealed? Enough for the legal definition yes, but not enough to for practical purposes since he actually drew my attention. But I'm glad I made a good judgement call.

[BrokenPaw]

Last time I checked (a month ago), a non-LEO citizen carrying on school property in Virginia is committing a Class 6 Felony.

Now, with that out of the way: I agree that you shouldn't have said or done anything. The "no guns on school property" law is absurd on its face, plus you weren't sure he was carrying; if he were not, and you attracted a LEO's attention to him (whether intentionally or not), it could have ruined his and his family's evening for no reason.

And you'd have felt foolish for having done it, I imagine.

Another thing: "obvious to another gun owner" is not the same thing as "obvious to the typical member of the public". Chances are, 200 soccer moms looked at him that night and never even noticed a thing.

-BP

[XavierBreath]

Suppose the fellow had nothing but a rock or two in the fanny pack to make it LOOK like he was packing to a person who might be considering making trouble for him?

Unless you see the gun, it's concealed. There is no proof that he was carrying, although it certainly seemed so. Perhaps that was good enough to avoid being a target. In a place where you cannot carry, looking as though you are may be the best option. There is a fair chance that this was the case, and in another setting he would choose to blend in.

Not saying anything was the right course of action. In the end, the bidness ain't your'n.

[JeepDriver]

Another thing: "obvious to another gun owner" is not the same thing as "obvious to the typical member of the public". Chances are, 200 soccer moms looked at him that night and never even noticed a thing.

I wonder about that quite often. Do other see the world the same way THR members do? Are we just really aware of our surroundings? Do other go through life not wanting to see the real world?

[BrokenPaw]

I wonder about that quite often. Do other see the world the same way THR members do? Are we just really aware of our surroundings? Do other go through life not wanting to see the real world?JeepDriver,
It's not necessarily that people don't want to see the world. It's that people tend to notice the things that are familiar and important to them.

If you're interested in NASCAR, you're more likely to notice (and understand the meaning of) the little number-stickers that some NASCAR fans put on their cars. Most people who don't care about NASCAR at all might see the sticker but not really notice it, and even if they did, they wouldn't attach any particular significance to it, so it would quickly fade from memory until they couldn't recall whether they'd even seen it.

Same thing with gun telltales and inside jokes. I saw a car with the license plates "TWO2COM", once. I know what it meant, and it was amusing to me, so I remembered it. Someone who wasn't a gun nut probably would never have figured it out, and would certainly never have remembered it over time.

We notice the bulge or the spare-mag carrier or the Molon Labe hat or the bigger-than normal fanny pack, and we draw a conclusion that's probably accurate. I've had soccer moms mistake my spare 10-round Beretta magazine for a cell phone.

People see what they expect to see. A cop in a high-stress traffic stop can easily mistake a cell-phone for a gun. Why? Because he is expecting a threat.

-BP

[MrAcheson]

XavierBreath,

Frankly I don't think that faking CCW is a wise idea from the tactical point of view. It may make you less of a target to the knowledgeable criminal seeking an easy mark, that is true. However it also says "I'm a threat to you, shoot me first" to anyone looking to cause serious trouble. It only works as long as the threat is smart enough to see your bluff, but doesn't have the guts to call it.

[brian0128]

I would have done exactly what you did and not said a thing.

[Peter M. Eick]

I had a similar circumstance here in Houston.

A guy came into a crowded family place for dinner wearing a thunder ranch tee-shirt, a NRA baseball cap and a "photo vest" and shorts when it was nearly 100 and 100% humidity (outdoor seating most of the place). He had a 1911 of some type that I could see becuase he did not button his vest. At the same time I had my IWB VersaMax 2 with a P7psp on and it was descretely hidden by an untucked tee-shirt.

The only thing I did was comment to my wife about the guys lack of style and how he stood out in a crowd as a ccw holder.

As someone earlier said. Mind your own business which is what I did and you did the right thing also.

[Standing Wolf]

I figure other people's guns, clothes, tattoos, facial hair, piercings, et cetera are none of my business.

That said™, I'd have complimented the fellow on his T shirt.

[GSMD Fan]

Got to say keeping your opinion on the guys wardrobe and carry method to yourself was the right thing to do.

If he was breaking the law, that is on him. He may get caught. If he just liked looking like a doof, that is on him. Matter of fact anything he does is on him.

Letting that slide was no doubt the right thing.

[Majic]

If you truly could not see his firearm then he was concealed and you have no right to address him about it. You assumed he was carrying and we all know about the word assume. You may not appreciate someones style of carry, but it's really none of our concern.
You did right to notice, log the event in your mind, and continuing on with your affairs.

[RKCheung]

There's a good chance he was a cop. I'm generalizing here, but I've noticed that a lot of cops don't bother to spend too much time concealing off duty. They change out of uniform and plunk their weapon in a fanny pack and off they go. As a cop, I'm sure he was exempt from any laws barring him from carrying on school property too.

[dairycreek]

Say nothing and leave your intuition in your fanny pack. Good shooting;)

[OF]

I don't see what the big problem is with people carrying in an overt way. If more people out there knew how many people were carrying maybe we'd get a little better press.

- Gabe

[Kcustom45]

If more people out there knew how many people were carrying maybe we'd get a little better press.

I doubt that.

[MrAcheson]

I agree with Kcustom. If more people realized home many CCWers there were, there would be more gun control laws not less. Fear can be huge motivator for fearful people to do stupid stupid things. Case in point: The Patriot Act.

[OF]

Something about hiding in the shadows rubs me the wrong way.

- Gabe

[MrAcheson]

Sometimes hiding in the shadows is the good tactics GRD, makes you less of a target until you can pick your shots.

[Archer]

FWIW,
MYOB :)

You did not positively know whether or not he had a CCW.

You apparently did NOT see a gun, just what, in your (reasonable, to be sure) view, was circumstantial evidence of a possible CCW.

You were wise to keep quiet.

[Erik]

I'd have asked him if he was "on the job." (Fanny packs,the obvious holster types at least, scream LEO to me.)

If he was, I'd strike up a conversation about work, kids, whatever.

If he wasn't, was carrying, and was half bright, he'd figure out that he was made. Maybe a conversation would ensue about it, maybe not. Either way, no harm, and likely I'd strike up a conversation about work, kids, or whatever..

[Bainx]

Fear can be huge motivator for fearful people to do stupid stupid things. Case in point: The Patriot Act.

Amen.

[mini14jac]

I was visiting a gunshop that has a "No Concealed Carry Allowed" sign on the door.

As I was getting ready to leave, I look out the window, and see this car pull up.
A guy gets out, and straps on this large, elaborate fanny pack, and walks into the shop.

I didn't say anything, but I'm thinking "He's packing."
If I'm going to carry concealed, I don't want anyone to have a clue.

[DrPsycho]

Fanny packs are no longer identified as such within this community. Personally, I'm hesitant to make assumptions regarding the carry of a concealed weapon and a fanny pack - much like I reserve judgement regarding drivers of ridiculously monstrous trucks of which they have no use for, as "making up" for something which they are lacking.... okay, maybe not. ;)

[MrPink]

I, myself, prefer the low-profile approach to CCW. Concealed to me is more than just not visible. In the summer time its usually a H&K P7PSP in an IWB holster with an untucked T-shirt or a S&W 340PD in a pocket holster in a pair of khaki shorts.

I usually wear plain, unadorned T-shirts - infact usually a oatmeal or grey heather. The color helps hide the black gun under a white shirt effect and the patterned texture helps breakup any printing that may happen.

I use a small Galco fanny pack - not for a gun - but for the wallet, cell phone, leatherman, knife, palm pilot, accouterments of life. I usually carry it tossed over my shoulder and not strapped around the waist. The only time anybody ever said anything about it to me was a cop at a gunstore who had obviously made me and asked what was inside. I get more cracks about it from friends who call it a fag bag or my purse.

[Mike Irwin]

"Should I have given the guy some surreptitious advice about his CCW choices?"

If I'm still up to date on County Code, he was committing a felony by carrying a handgun on school property.


You were less than 1/2 mile from my house when you were watching the fireworks.

I, however, was slightly under 200 miles from my house at the same time. :)

[Matthew Courtney]

Turn it around a bit. If it's a hot female carrying and you're a single guy, would you strike up a conversation then?

[MrAcheson]

Well I am a single guy but I was with my girlfriend so no, I probably wouldn't strike up a conversation either.

[tetchaje1]

People are so quick to jump on this guy for commiting a "Class 6 felony" IF he was carrying on school property. You all sound like you're from the Bay Area of California. :rolleyes: CC is legal on all public school properties in Utah, and therefore, being a student, I carry on school grounds every single day.

Granted, if that guy was carrying on school grounds it was unwise and a good way to lose his gun rights for good, but why not work on getting the law changed to a more reasonable stance instead of hovering over people calling felony every chance you get?

MYOB is a good motto, too, BTW. ;)

[charleym3]

I wish I lived in Utah.
I've made a few people. I only addressed one. She was carrying a revolver in a waiste pack and printing. She acted very offended at first, but came around after a bit.
One guy was wearing a NRA Tee shirt and a cap from a CC Training center. Talk about advertising. But he wasn't packed. Interesting.

[mec]

the only time I would mention it is if somebody's shirt had ridden up and he didn't know the gun was showing. Otherwise, don't ask, don't tell is the height of good etiquet. Had a demented man come up to me in the grocery store and go " HEY! You know it's not legal to CARRY YOUR GUN IN HERE?" No gun was showing but the guy was aware I instructed CCW.

Not only does this sort of behavior draw attention and remind liberals that guns exist but he was wrong. The state alcohol control guy was attempting to legislate a gun ban in any place that sold beer. The legislature handed him his head in the next session.

In this area, we have Wille Nelson clone roper-hippies who wear vests and we have leftwing sugar plums who wear fanny packs. The only red flag gun attire is a gunbutt accidentaly sticking out from under your shirt.

[50 Freak]

"You all sound like you're from the Bay Area of California. "


Hey I resent that:fire: :fire:

I'm from the Bay Area, I have a CCW and I carry my G27 in a Fobus holster with a light jacket. Don't believe in fanny packs, pretty ugly in my opinion.:neener: :neener:

[dav]

If you could call it that. I carry a fanny pack for two pairs of glasses, cell phone, PDA and check book.

Went to indoor range and the guy behind the counter says "rent one of ours or you gonna shoot what you are carrying?" as he nods at my fanny pack.

Only problem is, this is the PRK. I don't get to carry, so there was no gun in the fanny pack.

[tommytrauma]

I grew up around cops, and was taught at a young age that personal weapons were a very private matter. I must have been 10 or 11 when I asked an Uncle who was on the job how he carried off duty, and received "none of your f&*$in business" in reply. My Father explained to me that such questions were rude, and I've respected personal carry as a private matter ever since.

I wouldn't have said a word to this guy. I try to stay low profile, but different people have different styles. As far as the legal implications of his carrying, unless a violent crime is taking place in front of me, I won't intercede. In this case, there was no evidence of any crime, but simply an assumption.

[tetchaje1]

No offense intended, 50 Freak, but you are definitely a lone island in the Bay Area... :neener:

(Just another gratuitous poke at your expense... :evil: )

I'm talking about the majority -- not you. ;)

All is well, I just hope that more people like you will vote some sense into your congrescritters in that area. It really is too bad that the vast majority of the population in that area is just so danged anti-gun and liberal.

[faustulus]

Enough for the legal definition yes, but not enough to for practical purposes since he actually drew my attention.

I have a feeling that you and many of the people here would notice these things when 97 percent of the public would not. We tend to pay more attention to our surroundings and we know what we are looking for. Heck most people I know who don't shoot don't really know where to look for a conceal weapon, they think shoulder holsters are the way everyone does it.

[50 Freak]

No offense intended, 50 Freak, but you are definitely a lone island in the Bay Area...
---------------------------------------------------------------------

No problem, now you understand my moto

"one of a few"
"many among the unrepresented"

You'd be suprised at how few of us have CCW's in Kali and at how many actual gun owners there are in Kali too. We after all purchase the most handguns of all the 50 states. If we just voted, we'd make Kali a state even AR and TX would envy (in regards to gun friendly states)

[DMK]

There's a good chance he was a cop. I'm generalizing here, but I've noticed that a lot of cops don't bother to spend too much time concealing off duty. They change out of uniform and plunk their weapon in a fanny pack and off they go. As a cop, I'm sure he was exempt from any laws barring him from carrying on school property too. I was thinking the very same thing.

[Mute]

Here's a set of letters everyone should learn:

NDBBM (Nobody's Damn Business But Mine).

[atek3]

Jeez, all these hostilities.

I would have been a friendly guy. Compliment him on his t-shirt. Trade email addresses and give him the link to thehighroad.org
Then when he registers, send him a PM saying, "hey btw..."
Make friends, invite a new high roader, good stuff.

atek3