[40SW]

I had an interesting experience today with a 9mm bigot at a local gunshop. Let me first state by saying that I have been around guns all my life, have had well over 1000 students as an NRA certified firearms instructor, but I will be the first to say the following.
1. Ballistics is not an exact science. There is much we don't yet understand about how objects act while moving and how they react in certain media.
2. Stopping Power is not an absolute concept. Energy transfer, bullet size and shape, momentum, etc, as well as hundreds of other variables that we cannot expect to quantify exist, due to the fact that every engagement is unique.
3. Shot placement still wins the day as the dominant component, obviously one increases their chances with a respectable defensive load/type.

So this gentlemen behind the counter was telling a prospective customer who was looking to get a Glock 26 in 9mm that she was wasting her time with such a weak caliber, he proceeded to hand her a model 27 in .40SW without asking probing questions about her proficiency level and experience. Obviously there is a measurable difference in felt recoil, especially to novice shooters, he then proceeded to bash the 9mm and its history, aka the Miami shooting, other police engagements in large agencies who use it,, like NYC, its lack of stopping power. ,etc.
I just stood there and watched, the poor girl looked more confused than ever and eventually said she would think about it. I felt bad for her, but did not butt in, not my store, would not want that done to me, but after she left I politely offered a civilized lecture to the guy behind the counter. Here are the points I laid out, he was very receptive, I am seeking feedback to make sure that I laid out my case to him rationally. Here is a summary.

1. I told him that the cases he sited were accurate with respect to 9mm history in agencies and actual shootouts, but that substantial new developments have been made with respect to bullet technology and that it was unfair to make a generalization of the entire caliber without addressing that.

2. I told him that increased capacity in 9mm semi autos offers increased opportunity for potential follow up shots and that they are an effective combination with modern expanding bullet technology.

3. I told him that lower perceived recoil would offer novice shooters an opportunity to become more proficient and eventually graduate to higher calibers and that the lower expense of 9mm ammo allows more practice time.

4. I told him that proficiency with a 9mm is better than not being able to hit a broad side of a barn with a .40SW or a .357SIG.

5. I told him that a lesson in ballistics and caliber technology is not a good way to talk to a novice customer.

He was actually very receptive. ,even appologetic. My question is, did I overstep my boundaries? By the way, checkout my user name, the .40SW is my favorite cartridge, so I was being the most objective I could be.

[RoadkingLarry]

Sounds Like ya done good!
Give yourself a pat on the back and go ahead and live a little and buy that new gun you've been looking at.

[K3]

I don't think you overstepped.

I think that you did the right thing by talking with him after the customer left. The fact that he was receptive and apologetic shows that the man is not beyond hope.

Good points all around.

[fletcher]

You did not overstep at all - you did a great service to him and future customers. You said all that needed to be said, and there's really nothing I can suggest that should have been added.

A "caliber bigot" is usually a pretty good sign of someone who doesn't fully understand guns. Education is the answer ;)

[Wheeler44]

One more point; the price and availability of 9mm ammo means more opportunity to shoot. (from a financial point of view)

[K3]

A "caliber bigot" is usually a pretty good sign of someone who doesn't fully understand guns. Education is the answer

What is being a caliber whore a sign of? Not me, mind you, but someone I know. :D

[rdhood]

He was actually very receptive. ,even appologetic. My question is, did I overstep my boundaries? By the way, checkout my user name, the .40SW is my favorite cartridge, so I was being the most objective I could be.

You might have also reminded him that the FBI has identified 9mm (and .40 S&W and 45acp) ammunition with acceptable man-stopping characteristics (penetration, expansion, etc).

[romma]

I would rather carry a Golk 26 than a 27 anyhow based on concealabilty... If I want a 26, sell me a 26, not 27..

[SoCalShooter]

Sounds like you did great!! I am surprised from what you told us he did not offer her a .45 or 10mm.

[JKimball]

Kind of makes you wonder why he even stocks 9mm pistols. That's too bad he talked her out of buying one. I don't think you overstepped. After all, the customer is always right, right?

[rchernandez]

Important part is that the customer was sufficiently convinced to do the right thing...and buy a 1911 .45acp...right? :neener:






...ok ok...I carry a Glock 19!

[Harold Mayo]

I would rather carry a Golk 26 than a 27 anyhow based on concealabilty


How does the G26 conceal better than the G27, if you don't mind my asking....? :confused:

[40SW]

I am wondering how many novice shooters were turned away and discourage from the shooting sports/CCW with lectures like the one I witnessed. Can you imagine being a newbie to firearms and being in her shoes. People need to stop and think before they open their mouth., especially those on the front lines in gunshops, where they can make a huge difference. If it were me, I would have started her off with a Walther P22. Novices should start with a .22 and then move up gradually. All very good points made , keep them coming.
As far as G26 vs. G27 concealability, I don't see any difference for myself and own both.

[Shear_stress]

Good work. I always loved this line of reasoning perpetuated by the anti-9mm crowd: "9mm performed badly in those situations. . . ergo [insert caliber here] would have been more effective by default."

[jefnvk]

I don't think you overstepped. However, I don't buy that a 9mm is better choice for recoil than something bigger.

When I took my buddy's smallish girlfriend out shooting some of my pistols, I was suprised to find she prefered the full size .45 over some of my smaller (.380 PPK and Star BM 9mm). The reason, while the 45 had more recoil, the smaller sizes of the other guns meant she felt a lot more recoil.

After that realization, I just let them shoot a bunch and find what they like.

[romma]

I am wondering how many novice shooters were turned away and discourage from the shooting sports/CCW with lectures like the one I witnessed

Not so sure on this one 40SW... When I first went "handgun inquiring", I was looking in the cases and the owner was gruff and rude and asked if I had a permit. I didn't know you needed one at that point to purchase a handgun in CT...
Anyhow, the guy was a jerk, wouldn't give me the time of day after I told him I didn't have a permit but he did at least point me in the right direction.

And here I am now, I did not give up my quest because of him.

[Obiwan]

You done good

And I would also add that a lot of new shooters get bad information from the errornet as well

There is plenty of bad advice and junk science out there

[McCall911]

To my mind, choosing the 9mm as a self-defense round should be about like choosing oranges as a Vitamin C source instead of grapefruit or tangelos. Though the grapefruit may have an obvious advantage over orange in some ways, the orange still qualifies as a viable, effective Vitamin C source. Do we hear heated debates over the differences between grapefruit, tangelos, and oranges? Of course not. So what's the need for all the bigotry and the preaching?

[The-Fly]

This is my answer to caliber bigots (and for the record, I love my 45acp very much, but my carry gun is a G26).



http://www.btfh.net/shoot/images/bullet-test-3/hst-147.jpg

[strat81]

When I was in sales, I learned very quickly not to try to change the customer's mind. If someone walked into my gun shop (Not that I own one) and said I want a 9mm handgun, I'd just ask what brand, frame material, and price range. It's a salesman's dream when the customer says "I want THIS", hands it to you, and whips out the Amex.

[JKimball]

Fly,

I like the picture, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at. Can you identify the bullets for me? I'm guessing left to right .45 then 9mm, then 9mm FMJ?

[DoubleTapDrew]

Sounds like you did good. Hopefully he didn't turn her off to the idea of getting a gun (or have her end up getting something she won't enjoy shooting).
Just get this here .357 airweight j-frame darlin.

[wolf_from_wv]

Isn't .357 Sig basically a .40 necked down to 9mm?

.358 (.357 Mag and .38 Sp)
-.355 (9mm)
------
.003 ???

[40SW]

wolf:
Yes it is, the .357SIG is on all accounts a 9mm bullet, but its riding on a necked down .40SW case, so you have alot more case volume in a .357SIG, so the bullet is riding alot faster, the .357SIG is obviously a high pressure cartridge, felt recoil is noticably more SNAPPY than a conventional 9mm.

[buzz_knox]

How does the G26 conceal better than the G27, if you don't mind my asking....?

I'm not romma, but many people need the grip extensions to control the G27 better. That makes the weapon less concealable than the 26, which doesn't require extensions for the same level of control.

[40SW]

My dream for this young woman is that she come back and purchase a Walther P22 and a G26. This way she can practice with a nice ergonomic and compact .22 and transition back and forth. She can build confidence and muscle memory and transfer it to a nice subcompact centerfire. Its a shame that most gunsales guys don't take that approach.
Create circumstances that are conducive to the shooter falling in love with the shooting sports , and they will buy more from you. Can't these guys think long term?:banghead:

[The-Fly]

Fly,

I like the picture, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at. Can you identify the bullets for me? I'm guessing left to right .45 then 9mm, then 9mm FMJ?

All are 9mm bullets. The JHP's are Federal HST 147gr. The ball is a CCI 115gr.

Here's some of the testing I've done with various JHP's.

http://www.btfh.net/shoot/ballistics.html

[Leanwolf]

40SW - "If it were me, I would have started her off with a Walther P22. Novices should start with a .22 and then move up gradually."


YEP!!!

L.W.

[Geronimo45]

He was actually very receptive. ,even appologetic
Sounds like a breakthrough! Good work. Glad to hear the guy listened to you, hopefully he'll be remembering that for future customers.

[wolf_from_wv]

Yes it is, the .357SIG is on all accounts a 9mm bullet, but its riding on a necked down .40SW case, so you have alot more case volume in a .357SIG, so the bullet is riding alot faster, the .357SIG is obviously a high pressure cartridge, felt recoil is noticably more SNAPPY than a conventional 9mm.

But, it's still a "little bullet", right?

(from someone who has shot a few thousand rounds of 9mm...)

[MechAg94]

If 9mm is so bad, why is .357 Mag still considered a decent round?

I agree with above. Shot placement is king no matter what you are shooting. Get something you can and will shoot and that you can and will carry.

This is exactly the reason I have a Kahr P9 for carry and will likely get a light weight .38 cal revolver. I can comfortably carry them.

[nelson133]

What you did was good, but I would (and have in similar circumstances) tried to speak to the woman in question and told her that the opinions that she got were just that. Maybe you could have pointed her to Pax's site.

[Dorryn]

I do not use a grip extension with my G27. I feel that it negates the whole point of getting a 26 or 27 in the first place. Its a smaller weapon meant to be concealed.

That said, I can confirm that my very small wife (120 lbs) finds the G27 somewhat uncomfortable, and yes, 9mm would probably have been a better choice.

[cfl1911]

I agree that a 9mm is better than using some bigger caliber that you are not use to. BUT I saw a guy who had been hit 11 times by 9mm fire from LEO'S and he lived and was out of the hospital in 10 days. Ok so placement is at a issue but this same guy put one round into a officer with a .45 and they almost died and it was a broadside shot. I guess what I am saying is trauma plays a role as well as placement as well as condition of person shot. A 9mm will do the job with no doubts if the bullet is placed right. I think you did good.

[Black Adder LXX]

Wait... an mouthy guy with no clue what he's talking about working behind the counter at a gun shop?!? You *must* be making this whole thing up! That *never* happens! :)

Nicely done!

[littlegator]

I am wondering how many novice shooters were turned away and discourage from the shooting sports/CCW with lectures like the one I witnessed. Can you imagine being a newbie to firearms and being in her shoes.

I was one actually. I looked on-line for a couple of months before buying my first handgun and also went to a store/range to talk to someone and shoot my final list of 4 guns within my price range. Having only shot a handgun one time before this, I was a definate novice. It soon became apparent, however, that the man behind the counter would only recommend .45 and did not have anything good to say about .40, or 9mm, for example. And even there, he only wanted to sell me the Springfield XD. Based upon the excessive advertising for the XD in the shop, I realized that they probably got kickbacks or other incentives for selling the XD over the other brands. Needless to say, I shot some guns, talked to some more people, and ended up with a different gun. It's not to say that the XD isn't a fine weapon, but it wasn't my first choice at the end of the day. Furthermore, the .45 was also not my first choice for my first handgun after comparing the different calibres. I'm still happy with my choice, and plan on getting a 1911 in the near future anyway. :)

[Geronimo45]

If 9mm is so bad, why is .357 Mag still considered a decent round?
'Cuz it's got 'mm' in it. .357 has 'Magnum' after it. :D
Of course, .357 got a lot of press thanks to the very good marketing of the round by S&W when it first came out. They showed it killing bear, caribou, deer... all kinds of big critters.
The 9mm was underloaded in the US from the outset, from what I've read. The 9mm Lugers US soldiers captured in WWI had a bad habit of jamming, thanks to underpowered US ammo (therefore 9mm is garbage, and Lugers especially). Still seems to be the case with the .32 ACP round - the hot-loaded rounds all seem to be of European make.

Of course, the .357 has more options for bullet shape, and generally higher velocities than standard 9mm. The massive case allows a wide variety of loads, and a very large variety of bullet weights.

[Erebus]

He was actually very receptive. ,even appologetic If you don't jump down their throat and treat them like an idiot most people are.

Yes it is, the .357SIG is on all accounts a 9mm bullet, but its riding on a necked down .40SW case, so you have alot more case volume in a .357SIG, so the bullet is riding alot faster, the .357SIG is obviously a high pressure cartridge, felt recoil is noticably more SNAPPY than a conventional 9mm.

many people need the grip extensions to control the G27 better. That makes the weapon less concealable than the 26, which doesn't require extensions for the same level of control.
Learn good stuff every day on this board!! :D

[1911Tuner]

IIRC...Jim Keenan related a story about a Civil War officer who was struck solidly by an artillery projectile...and it didn't even knock him off his horse.
If that doesn't provide insight to the myth of "Knockdown Power"...I don't know what does.

Perhaps Mr. Keenan would retell it in hopes that this gunshop commando will see it.

The 9mm is a good round. So is the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP. If they're shot well, they'll all do well...but there is no Hammer of Thor.
All fail to achieve the necessary results sooner or later.

[WuzYoungOnceToo]

To my mind, choosing the 9mm as a self-defense round should be about like choosing oranges as a Vitamin C source instead of grapefruit or tangelos. Though the grapefruit may have an obvious advantage over orange in some ways, the orange still qualifies as a viable, effective Vitamin C source. Do we hear heated debates over the differences between grapefruit, tangelos, and oranges?
Pfffft!! Anyone with ANY experience with citrus knows that limes are the preferred vitamin C delivery mechanism. And if anyone asks that's what I tell them every time. I don't want someone trying to put an orange slice in their Tecate on my conscience.

[benEzra]

So this gentlemen behind the counter was telling a prospective customer who was looking to get a Glock 26 in 9mm that she was wasting her time with such a weak caliber, he proceeded to hand her a model 27 in .40SW without asking probing questions about her proficiency level and experience. Obviously there is a measurable difference in felt recoil, especially to novice shooters, he then proceeded to bash the 9mm and its history, aka the Miami shooting, other police engagements in large agencies who use it,, like NYC, its lack of stopping power. ,etc.

I just stood there and watched, the poor girl looked more confused than ever and eventually said she would think about it. I felt bad for her, but did not butt in, not my store, would not want that done to me, but after she left I politely offered a civilized lecture to the guy behind the counter.
What a salesperson. A customer came in knowing what she wanted and he talked her out of buying it from him.

IIRC, my wife got a similar spiel from a guy at the first gun shop we visited when she was shopping for her own gun. Needless to say, she bought her Glock elsewhere. And when she walked into that gun shop, she knew exactly what she wanted--a Glock 26, a set of Trijicons, and installation of the new sights for her.

You handled the situation perfectly, I think. I just feel badly for the woman, and I hope she comes back to get her G26.

[Richbaker]

Yeah, but limes in Blue Moon....c'mon now!

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Next time help the confused lady out if you could. Still did the right thing.

[mnrivrat]

My thoughts are that the problem with opinions is that everyone has one.

When asked for , they are not a bad thing , when not asked for, they are just another opinion.

My point ? It should be the sales persons responsibility to try to sell a customer the firearm they want - without giving opinion on choice unless asked. When asked there opinion, it should for the most part be explainitory in nature , and pointing out options, rather than driving to a specific "this is what you want" point.

[Regolith]

This is something that confuses me about gun stores. I don't know a single other retail industry in which the proprietors will argue with their customer's choice in products. If the person wants a 9mm, give them a 9mm. The only time you should try to change their mind if its for something that is completely inappropriate for that caliber or type of weapon, for instance someone wanting a shotgun for long range shooting.

[mrmeval]

strat81,
Agreed.
I worked on commission and learned pretty quick to sell the customer what they asked for. Questioning their choice is questioning their competence. I've met a few people who could gentle someone into a marginally better choice but the effort was usually not worth it. Fortunately we didn't carry any of the crap products.

I'm the person that loves to look and ask questions but when I finally come into buy I whip out the credit card and point. ;)

[40SW]

Excellent feedback everyone, it brings up an interesting point about gunshop etiquette and protocol. My contention has always been that if you are in somebody else's business or home, well, how can I put this, There is a way to go about things.
Even though the gunshop saleman handled the situation very poorly, I tried to put myself in their shoes and trying to see how I would have felt if it was me behind the counter and a customer/bystander interrupted and butted in regardless of whether I was right or wrong. In retrospect, there could have been a diplomatic way of interjecting for sure, but I didn't want to take the chance of having both the salesguy and the customer look at me like. "what business is it of yours?", but I think I made a real difference with the salesguy. , albeit too late for the poor lady who either went to a different gunshop (rightfully so) or she probably went home confused and I hope she does not get even more confused by accidently bumping in into Marshall & Sanow groupies who will further confuse her by trying to convince her that .40SW did better against dead cow cadavers and that the Border Control's studies on car glass penetration showed impressive results. Can you imagine a novice shooters who just wants a comfortable and shootable pistol being bombarded with momentum and energy dump theories.
Futhermore, besides gunshop etiquette questions, the other main question
is the question of gunshop employee qualifications. Obviously if you take large chains out of the equation like Gander Mountain, Cabellas, etc, most gunshops are family run and obviously nepotism trumps qualifications. You often don't have the most qualified people working at gunshops, so its a good idea to give them a litmus test, I am not saying to give them a written quiz, but there is a subtle way to probe and see if you are dealing with a firearms professional vs. a mall ninja.

[FieroCDSP]

Good job, OP. Information is king in sales, and there simply are times when sales people are mis-informed. I started out on 40cal simply because I didn't believe the 9mm was an effective stopper (before I was enlightened by folks here). 40 is not for the weak of heart or small hands (yrmv). I usually recommend people start on a 22, but if they're only looking for one handgun, I tell them to go with a 9mm.

As sales go, I do not work on commission, and due to my limited selection of long guns, I occasionally send people elsewhere based on their needs. One woman came in looking specificly for a shotgun. I showed her the ones I had, explained their features, and eventually she menioned it was going to be mostly for HD. That changed everything. I explained that a full-length in close quarters was more cumbersome, provided more risk to being disarmed, etc... I then recommended my usual shop for my firearms because I knew they had the Remington 870 HD's on sale. She put one of mine on layaway in case she didn't like the one she was going to check out, then came back later, cancelled (store keeps a fee), and thanked me for my recommendation.
Go ahead, call me dumb for missing a sale over the debatable effective barrel length, but for something like HD, the right tool for the right job.

[kludge]

have had well over 1000 students as an NRA certified firearms instructor

Wow!

:salute:

I would have slipped her my card on her way out, and said if she came to my class she could try out anything she wanted.

[40SW]

kludge:
Good tip, of by the way, I am in Florida, so the student count is not very impressive. Recent stats show that Florida is approaching about half a million CWP holders. Now thats impressive.!!!!!!!!

[hso]

My question is, did I overstep my boundaries?

No, you did very well and provided a service to the clerk and to everyone that he'll talk to from here on out.

What he may have done was not only loose a sale, but put that novice gun buyer off of purchasing a gun altogether. What a disservice to her!

[Macpherson]

I agree with the other sentiments here, I can't imagine why any salesperson in their right mind would talk a customer OUT of making a purchase in their shop, especially because of a 9mm vs .40 or .45 preference. I could have understood if she was looking to get a .22 or a .32 acp, but a 9mm? Make the sale already and then maybe she'll come back and buy a 45 later! I commend you for making the effort to correct this salesperson; I've heard this kind of talk in gun shops as well, and am really amazed at how those places stay in business. (Then again, maybe their low volume is why their prices are always sky-high) :rolleyes:

[kludge]

I am in Florida, so the student count is not very impressive.

Perhaps not, but I just got my credentials, and I doubt I would teach 1,000 in my lifetime.

[jrhines]

"I'll take one good hit with a 9mm over multiple misses with the caliber of your choice" - my mantra every time I am asked about "stopping power"!

[Deavis]

When I took my buddy's smallish girlfriend out shooting some of my pistols, I was suprised to find she prefered the full size .45 over some of my smaller (.380 PPK and Star BM 9mm).

My wife, then my girlfriend, went shooting found that she liked my USP 40 better than any smaller caliber I gave her to try including a P22. Even though the gun is big, she was very comfortable with it in her hands. Comfort is key to shot placement and shot placement is key to ending conflict. Some people are so manly they can shoot anything, especially their 500 S&W 8" CCW piece, but not everyone is so blessed :)

[McCall911]

Obviously if you take large chains out of the equation like Gander Mountain, Cabellas, etc, most gunshops are family run and obviously nepotism trumps qualifications. You often don't have the most qualified people working at gunshops, so its a good idea to give them a litmus test, I am not saying to give them a written quiz, but there is a subtle way to probe and see if you are dealing with a firearms professional vs. a mall ninja.

:scrutiny:

Hey, you just described the situation at my local gunshop to a T!

In fact, at least one of the employees would have to improve a great deal to qualify as a mall ninja, much less a firearms professional.

:uhoh:

[MarshallDodge]

You did good. I have stepped in and offered advice to prevent a customer from making a mistake.

One instance was a large chain store. A husband and wife were looking at guns and they guy behind the counter(let's call him Bill) just kept pulling out guns to let her "try them on". When he pulled out a Kahr P40 she liked the look and feel but Bill never said anything about the recoil. I asked Bill if he had ever shot a P40 and he said no. I then made the recommendation based on my experience with the P40 that she may want to get the P9 instead. Bill thanked me for my advice and so did the couple.

I have seen women buy the S&W .357 Airweight for themselves and I wonder what will go through her mind the first time she shoots it with full .357 loads.:eek:
Hopefully it won't happen when she is under duress.

BTW, my wife's favorite gun to shoot is her Colt Detective .38 or a full-size 1911.

[Aries-]

i might have pointed out that he likely lost a sale with that woman because he confused the hell out of her, if he had accepted her request for the 9mm he would have been what $600 richer than he was before she came in. but thats just me.

never good to confuse a customer, you will likely never see them again, and possably drive them away from the sport/hobby they are looking at.

its also not a good idea to sell something far to much for what someone is looking for. i wouldent want to send a smaller woman home with a bigger caliber than she could handle reliably. a 9mm doesent kick as much as the .40S&W, id be worried it might hurt her (if she was confused id take that as she hadent shot much), not sexist id do the same thing with a smaller guy, or a guy that seemed inexperianced. no one likes being surprised by the kick on a rifle. (i know i dont)