.223 AK...or another AR


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wyM1Aguy
September 13, 2007, 03:58 PM
List...

I have been looking for another .223 semi-auto to add to the collection. I have restricted myself to the .223 and .308 calibres, for simplicity and cost sake.

I have a nice AR I built...and have heard/read much about the legendary reliability of the AK design. Most of this is, of course, the 7.62x39 variety. I was just wondering about the feasiblity of a .223 AK vs. building another AR.

What do you think? If I went with the AK which model/mfg. should I look for? VEPR, Arsenal, SAR-3, etc.? Afraid I don't know much about AKs....

r

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Browning
September 13, 2007, 04:27 PM
If you do get an AK in .223 Rem get one of the VEPR's or one of the ones from Arsenal as they work really well. Some of the SAR-3's in .223 Rem work real well and some of them don't.

The Romak SAR's in 7.62X39 and 5.45X39 work great, but I bought an SAR in .223 Rem and I had nothing but problems with it. It was brand new, so it wasn't like someone gummed it up before me or anything. Double feeds, stove pipes and an inability to pick the next round up sometimes was usually the problems I had with it.

I've heard that some people have really been happy with theirs, so maybe I got a lemon. In my entire life I've had three problem guns and this was one of them. The VEPR's and the AK's from Arsenal seemed like they were put together a little better from what I've seen.

You get what you pay for usually and this is one area where you shouldn't skip on paying for quality.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=93&t=70455

The way I would rate AKM's would go something like this with number 1 being the best and 10 being the worst.

1) Custom AK's like Krebs.

2) Russian, Bulgarian and Arsenal.

3) Hungarian.

4) Polish, East German and Chinese.

5) Romanian and Yugoslavian (Parts for the Yugos supposedly don't match up with the rest of AK's out there.

6) Maadi (Egyptian).

Baron357
September 13, 2007, 05:01 PM
Arsenals are great guns and I would suggest one it you have AR type money to spend. Stay away from the junk AKs or you will be disappointed when comparing them to your ARs.

Deer Hunter
September 13, 2007, 05:30 PM
I suggest you pick up a Saiga in .223 and fix it up however you want.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x91/Captain_Kennedy/DSC03737.jpg

Best quality and Best value on the market for just about any rifle out there today.

MD_Willington
September 13, 2007, 05:34 PM
Get a .223 Galil that takes AR mags...

AK varient and your AR can be fed with the same magazines...

MudPuppy
September 13, 2007, 05:44 PM
Some of the galil adapters can be finicky. An Israeli galil can be $2500...I'll just leave that at that. A century galil is about $1K and I like mine just fine, but it's also needing to be boxed up and sent back to correct a recall issue with the firing pin/bolt.

Saigas are great, especially for the money. Especially if you like them stock.

Veprs are awesome, but use some propriety furniture (stock is angle cut).

My favorites, in order are:

Tie for 1st - Arsenal Milled, Galil, Vepr, Yugo M90/95
2nd - Saiga (only because stock mags don't work)
3rd Tie for SAR-3 and BWK-22
4th WASR-3

I don't list the other polytech/norinco chinese stuff because I think its outpriced its worth due to rarity/collection status. No thanks.


My absolute favorite 223 AK is a Yugo M95 that I put a fixed trunnion/stock on. It's built on a nodak 7.62 with modifications.

Don't Tread On Me
September 13, 2007, 06:27 PM
The greatest turn-off of the .223 AK is the magazine situation. There just aren't very many magazines, nor are they cheap.

I wouldn't mind a .223 AK if it were something that I could live with having 1-2 mags. But if this is going to be something I use often (like training) ..magazines are not permanent. They wear out. As such, I'd want a ready supply at a good price. That's why I'd go AR instead. You can buy the best AR magazine money can buy for $13. That's cheap by today's standards or any standard really. Might be cheaper if bought in bulk.

With the AK, it is either some type of compromise, conversion, adapter - mags are not easy to find OR expensive.

Depends on use. For a low-use range toy, a couple of mags is all you'll ever need. If you're going to run a lot of rounds through it or take classes with it, then you're going to want a lot more magazines.

W.E.G.
September 13, 2007, 06:36 PM
The greatest turn-off of the .223 AK is the magazine situation. There just aren't very many magazines, nor are they cheap.

I wouldn't mind a .223 AK if it were something that I could live with having 1-2 mags. But if this is going to be something I use often (like training) ..magazines are not permanent. They wear out. As such, I'd want a ready supply at a good price. That's why I'd go AR instead. You can buy the best AR magazine money can buy for $13. That's cheap by today's standards or any standard really. Might be cheaper if bought in bulk.

With the AK, it is either some type of compromise, conversion, adapter - mags are not easy to find OR expensive.

Depends on use. For a low-use range toy, a couple of mags is all you'll ever need. If you're going to run a lot of rounds through it or take classes with it, then you're going to want a lot more magazines.


That is EXACTLY consistent with my experience with the .223 AK.

Don't forget too that this stuff starts taking up space. Big box of these mags... big box of those mags.... This sling.... that sling....

You get the idea.

.223 AK mags seem to take a beating from the gun itself.


Weiger mag
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/weiger.jpg

MD_Willington
September 13, 2007, 07:27 PM
well with a feed ramp... a Saiga .223 can run Orlites and Bulgarian mags alright

nalioth
September 13, 2007, 08:11 PM
well with a feed ramp... a Saiga .223 can run Orlites and Bulgarian mags alright and Weigers (the classic choice), and converted Ak74 mags, and Pro-Mags, too.

seektruth
September 13, 2007, 08:20 PM
I bought a Saiga 223 to convert and haven't actually done it yet. I also own AR's and a bunch of mags for them. I had planned to adapt a Galil AR mag adapter to the Saiga, but after getting the gun and the adapter in my hands I don't think I'll go that way. I picked up some Galil orlite mags also, which is what I'll probably use if I go ahead with the conversion. If the Saiga didn't have such a crappy trigger to start with, I'd leave it stock.

JWarren
September 13, 2007, 08:41 PM
Its fairly well known on this forum that I am an AK fan. Consider that as I saw the following.


I've considered that at some point in the future I should have a firearm in .223. It's been really tough to justify in my area because of lack of multiple uses for a .223 firearm. My state requires a mininum of .24 Caliber for deer hunting and I suspect that there would be little left of a rabbit or squirrel if I used a .223. So, I've but getting a .223 a tad lower on my priority list-- but still plan on it. Eventually.

My original idea was to get a AK platform .223 such as a converted Saiga. Like has been mentioned on this thread, there is one hang-up. Magazines.

Even though I am certain that magazines will be available somewhere, they won't be the cheapest you will be buying. I already have one rifle that takes expensive magazines as it is (Saiga 308.)

I highly suspect that AR magazines will always be more plentiful, easier to find, and cheaper than .223 AK magazines. This leans me towards the AR platform when I buy/build a .223.

For me, the answer is rather simple. The AR platform is really my best choice. You see, the modular design of the AR platform addresses my "lack-of-practical-use" problem.

My plan is to go with a AR platform for a .223 and register the lower on Form 2 as a SBR. This allows me to use shorter barrels and fill the gap in my collection for a SBR. I can use a NFA upper on it legally.

At the same time, I can also invest in a 6.5 Grendel upper from Alexander Arms that would allow me to use this platform as another option for a deer rifle. If I get a wild hair, I could get a stainless, free floated match upper and have a long-range .223 for the heck of it.

This would allow one firearm to fill the role of a M-forgery, SBR, hunting rifle, and long-range rifle.

Now, I have no illusions. Just getting a role-specific upper for an AR platform is the cost of a lower-end AK.

But what the heck. I am kind full up on AKs. Time to expand my horizons. See? I am a firearms multiculturalist! :)


-- John

LoadedDrum
September 13, 2007, 10:07 PM
If you want a 5.56 AK get a SIG 556 if you have the cash. It solves the expensive, rare mag problem by using AR mags. It also has a better trigger and accuracy than any other AK. It is also easier to mount optics on.

Deer Hunter
September 13, 2007, 10:12 PM
Galil 35 round 5.56mm magazines go for around 12-20 dollars a piece, depending on where or how hard you look. They feed flawlessly into my Saiga, and the bullet guide is not hard to install.

LeibstandarteAdH
September 13, 2007, 10:21 PM
If your going to get an AK in .223, I will second staying away from the Romanian rifles. They leave Cugir with single stack mag wells, front trunions and bolt heads, which are all too slim when they mill the mag well out to make them high cap capible once in country.

My all time best performing AK is a Yugo M-95 in .223 Rem. That being between Polish, Hungarian, and Romanian. From best to worst. Those are all that i currently own. I have never had an Arsenal 106 but have shot one. The Arsenal gun is no better then a propperly converted Saiga .223, but if you dont want to go to any trouble, or find one already converted, Go with either the Yugo M-95 or Arsenal SLR-106 series

The magazine "issue" with a .223 AK is really kind of stupid its not like its a VALMET or something. Polymer magazines are availible for AK's in .223 for $12.99-19.99 depending on who you get them from, Aim, IOINC, that all feed and function 100% and are brand new.

geojap
September 13, 2007, 10:27 PM
The VEPR is an amazingly consistent and fine rifle, but they are very rare these days and sell for twice what they used to compared to just 2 or 3 years ago.

I have two very nice 7.62x39 AKs but lately I have had a really had a strong itch to get a .223 AK for a few reasons, so I have been thinking similarly to yourself. But I am not an AR guy, I would rather my rifles be reliable and functional first, and have the best ergonomics second. I would never want a rifle that may jam on me.

After doing some research, the only problem that I found was that .223 AKs tended to have some reliability issues. I'm talking about those that are currently available, not your old Yugos and Galils that are very rare and cost a pretty penny. They would misfeed, and mainly the problem seemed to be caused by mags. After looking at several models, I discovered a few things. Saigas seemed to be the most reliable .223 AKs that were readily available. And Tromix and AKUSA Saigas seemed to be the best Saiga .223 conversions that were as realiable as AKs should be.

Chris at AKUSA has very fine rifles but they were more than I wanted to pay for an AK. So I decided on the Tromix, which cost about 65% of the AKUSA rifle. I just ordered my Tromix Saiga .223 w/folding stock from FBMG (owned by Correia on the HighRoad here). Correia is selling them for a price that is a bleeding steal in my opinion. I do not think that the current availability and price that Correia is selling these Tromix Saigas for will continue as is for much longer. I think that these Tromix Saigas will go up in price and the turnaround time from Tromix will increase, just because orders at Tromix seem to have increased very rapidly in the last few months.

Anyway, these rifles are supposed to take Bulgarian 5.56/.223 mags without any issue. You can buy these from K-VAR for about $30. They are pricey for AK mags, but then again it's K-VAR of course. They are a monopoly; they have cornered the market since Chief Thunder got set up and sent away several years ago. But they are good quality mags at least, which should last. Mine will come equipped with a Tromix side folder, which appears to be similar to an ACE folding stock, which are really high quality folders.

These .223 Saigas rifles are reported to be as accurate as any AK out there, as accurate as any VEPR. I read once that they do slightly better with the heavier 62 grain Russian ammo, versus the lighter stuff. Another pro regarding these rifles is that they do not seem to have any problem with the Russian steel-cased .223 ammo, as others have sometimes reported that AR's seem to have issues with it sometimes.

I hope this helps. I was in the same boat as you recently, and this is what I decided to do. I have no doubt that the rifle I ordered will be a keeper. In light of the current prices for a quality AK, I think I got a total steal. I'll post some pics when I receive it next week. Kudos to Correia for having the wherewithal to order and have such a fine custom rifle stocked in his store already. If you contact Tony at Tromix right now, at this point in time, he will tell you that he has his orders filled and cannot deliver a rifle to you until 2009! :what:

MudPuppy
September 13, 2007, 11:10 PM
A couple of things, I don't think all Romanians come in as single stack chop jobs--I think the SAR-3 is a purpose built, normal mag using AK?

Secondly, Kvar isn't the only folks with bulgy 5.56 mags--aimsurplus has 'em for cheaper.

Finally, all you saiga shooters really need to quit buying up all the galil mags. Grr.

geojap
September 13, 2007, 11:17 PM
Secondly, Kvar isn't the only folks with bulgy 5.56 mags--aimsurplus has 'em for cheaper.

Crikey, thank you for pointing that out. I had no idea AIM had those. That will save me about $6 per mag.

rbernie
September 13, 2007, 11:20 PM
Saiga - this one uses Galil mags ($20/ea from CDNN and elsewhere).

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=63168&d=1188489535


Finally, all you saiga shooters really need to quit buying up all the galil mags. Grr.HA! NEVER!!!! :D

rangerruck
September 14, 2007, 01:31 AM
get you a saiga ak for under 300 , give it a few mods, to accept standard ak mags, and never look back with regret!!!

nalioth
September 14, 2007, 01:53 AM
If your going to get an AK in .223, I will second staying away from the Romanian rifles. They leave Cugir with single stack mag wells, front trunions and bolt heads, which are all too slim when they mill the mag well out to make them high cap capible once in country. No sir. These are (from top) a Sar-1 and a Sar-3 (in .223). They both entered the country with fully functional high cap mag wells. They are made with military receivers (the 3d hole is not punched out is the only difference) and work quite well. Made in Romania.

http://www.novarata.net/abrams/muzzles/muzzles_415.JPG

Correia
September 14, 2007, 11:07 AM
geojap is correct. The price on Tromix guns will be increasing, as will the wait times. Tony is swamped with orders. (for good reason, his stuff is awesome). Plus the base Saigas took a jump as well.

Dave Markowitz
September 14, 2007, 11:18 AM
I have an Arsenal SA M5 milled 5.56mm AK. It has been flawless. With the 1:7 twist it can shoot heavy bullet 5.56 loads. (So far all I've fired have been 55 grainers, though.) Although it's possible to use AK-74 mags with a replacement follower from Robinson Arms, I've stuck with Bulgarian waffle mags, which are what the gun is meant for.

I've made two mods to the gun. 1. Replaced the "NATO length" butt with a "Warsaw Pact" length, since it fits me better. 2. Replaced the muzzle brake with a flash suppressor.

I am debating whether I want to put a red dot sight on it using an Ultimak mount, or just replace the rear sight with a Mojo peep. Probably the former, since a red dot is more useful in poor lighting and accuracy won't be hurt by the AK's short sight radius.

wyM1Aguy
September 14, 2007, 11:33 AM
Many thanks for all the excellent info.

As I look into the .223 AK options a bit more I do see the 'reliable mag' problem as a recurring theme.

As a result I am still confused as to the situation. It appears that the saiga is a great option...but it has to be "converted" to run standard AK .223 mags? This is where the Tromix thing comes in?

If one does not want to go this route, and wants to run AK hi-caps right out of the box, then I am restricted to finding a VEPR, Galil, or SAR-3?

I would really like to stay around $500. I can build a really nice (basic) AR for a little more than that.

Decisions, decisions....

LeibstandarteAdH
September 14, 2007, 11:37 AM
No sir. These are (from top) a Sar-1 and a Sar-3 (in .223). They both entered the country with fully functional high cap mag wells. They are made with military receivers (the 3d hole is not punched out is the only difference) and work quite well. Made in Romania

And what importer currently imports these rifles you speak of?

My point was any Romanian rifle imported sience the ATF told Century that the whole SAR-1,2 and 3 lineup was not 922(r) compliant and could not be imported anymore.

All of the romanin guns that have been imported in the last few years, and are currently being imported are not the rifles you have pictured or are referring to.

sniper69
September 14, 2007, 11:47 AM
Anyway, these rifles are supposed to take Bulgarian 5.56/.223 mags without any issue. You can buy these from K-VAR for about $30. They are pricey for AK mags, but then again it's K-VAR of course. They are a monopoly; they have cornered the market since Chief Thunder got set up and sent away several years ago

Chief thunder is back and posting on gunsnet. he has bulgarian 5.56 waffles for $14 each, and he also has some polish 5.56 beryl mags listed for sale.
Also Cope's has bulgarian waffle mags in 5.56. dpharms has the clear 5.56 bulgarian mags IIRC.


As for the 223 ak - the norinco's are nice - and the price for a MAK90 or NHM90 in 223 isn't to bad. Preban Norinco's cost more, and well....Polytech's are a different story. ;)
The SAR-3's are good guns - some have had issues, some haven't. I guess I got lucky as I haven't had any issues with mine yet.
Bulgarian waffle mags will work fine in a Norinco without any mods, and they work in my SAR-3 but fit tight. The yugo M90/M95's can use bulgarian waffle mags too.
Last year on gunbroker there was a 223 AK (norinco IIRC) for sale that used AR mags. It looks like a galil adapter was put in permanently (or at least it didn't look like it could be removed in the picture).

Here are some pics of a couple of my 223 AK's.

my NHM90 - put back the way it should be.
Before:
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/32/32320/folders/265284/2110962770dbe6aae567eb96210b422ebac5356.jpg

After:
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/32/32320/folders/265284/21109611004733-1.JPG
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/32/32320/folders/265284/21109601004730-1.JPG

And my lowly SAR-3 :D
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/32/32320/folders/267482/21290751004861-1.JPG

geojap
September 14, 2007, 11:54 AM
As a result I am still confused as to the situation. It appears that the saiga is a great option...but it has to be "converted" to run standard AK .223 mags? This is where the Tromix thing comes in?

If one does not want to go this route, and wants to run AK hi-caps right out of the box, then I am restricted to finding a VEPR, Galil, or SAR-3?

I would really like to stay around $500. I can build a really nice (basic) AR for a little more than that.

With the most basic conversion, Tromix converts the Saiga rifle so that it legally carries a pistol grip. He also modifies it so that it accepts the Bulgarian high cap magazines. But they cost well over $500.

You can buy a Saiga rifle and convert it yourself for about $450 total if you have the DIY skills.

I seem to remember that .223 VEPRs will run with modified mags, but they are not exactly standard mags. The followers needed to be replaced, IIRC. The old posts on the Gunsnet.net/VEPR forum will be able to help with that. VEPRs will run you $650-900 if you can even find one today.

The SAR-3 would be an affordable option for you, if you can find one used. They sell for $400-450 now. I'm not 100% sure what mags the SAR-3 uses however. I've been a 7.62x39 guy for years so I'm just learning about .223 AKs myself now too.

High quality AKs used to be much more available and cheaper in the past. There was a time not too long ago when SAM7s, SAM5s, SLR93s, SLR95s, VEPRs, SSR-99s were $400-600 and the cheaper SARs, MAADIs and MAK90s were less than $300. SLR95s used to cost less then $300 at one point. Saigas used to cost $170. The higher quality AKs with milled receivers are virtually gone now, and the price of any other good AK is now up in the $650-1,100 range. The pickings have gotten slimmer.

sniper69
September 14, 2007, 11:55 AM
:
No sir. These are (from top) a Sar-1 and a Sar-3 (in .223). They both entered the country with fully functional high cap mag wells. They are made with military receivers (the 3d hole is not punched out is the only difference) and work quite well. Made in Romania

And what importer currently imports these rifles you speak of?

My point was any Romanian rifle imported sience the ATF told Century that the whole SAR-1,2 and 3 lineup was not 922(r) compliant and could not be imported anymore.

All of the romanin guns that have been imported in the last few years, and are currently being imported are not the rifles you have pictured or are referring to.

Luckily they can still be found for sale, both locally and online. Like for me - I wanted a SAR-3 not a WASR-3. So I waited and searched and found one (a SAR-3) on gunbroker. Of course I changed out the stockset (to the one shown in my previous post) and will be changing the FSB out to a Romanian one with 22mm threads.

If someone wants a particular variant of 223 ak - they ca be found even if they aren't currently imported. :)

MD_Willington
September 14, 2007, 01:18 PM
If someone wants a particular variant of 223 ak - they ca be found even if they aren't currently imported.

True enough, I had the chance to get a Nork AK locally with a pile of mags for 3 C-bills... too bad I was broke at the time...

SpookyPistolero
September 14, 2007, 02:05 PM
I really love my 5.56 SAR-3. It's been a great rifle. It's had a few modifications.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t259/Spookypistolero/PA120007.jpg

Obiwan
September 14, 2007, 02:21 PM
I think everyone should own at least one AK

I don't personally want one in 5.56...but to each his (or her) own

If I were buying an AK right now it would be in 5.45...the only cheap ammo left

nalioth
September 14, 2007, 02:30 PM
As a result I am still confused as to the situation. It appears that the saiga is a great option...but it has to be "converted" to run standard AK .223 mags? This is where the Tromix thing comes in? Tromix does a high quality job on the conversion. You can buy a Saiga, and a few compliance parts and attend a local AK build party and do it yourself. Currently .223 Saigas are available for around $250 and the compliance parts will run you $50 to $100 (or more) depending on what you want it to look like.

The Saiga conversion is the easiest way to a Kalashnikov style rifle.

If I were buying an AK right now it would be in 5.45...the only cheap ammo left It won't be cheap or available long.

LeibstandarteAdH
September 14, 2007, 03:47 PM
It won't be cheap or available long

I hope the Polish stuff from centerfire is stacked deep enough for me to get a few thousand more rounds. Then when the 5.45x39 stuff goes back to how it was, stop shooting it as my primary plinking AK round. :mad:

Malodorousroadkill
September 14, 2007, 04:03 PM
Saigas are great even if you don't convert. It never hurts to have something around that is a bit more on the politically correct side. Considering how well my 16inch 7.62x39 works, I wouldn't mind one in .223 really. I had totally forgot about it taking the cheapy steel case rounds. They do make a 20inch in .223 apparently, at least according to the RAA site.

grimjaw
September 14, 2007, 04:05 PM
I can't speak to the rest of them, but I had absolutely no trouble out of the SAR3 + Weigers. I think the problem with the SAR3s, or any of the SARs, is that the limited number that were imported are now getting long in the tooth and have probably seen alot of rounds.

I also have had no trouble from the Arsenal milled 5.56 AKs, wonderful guns.

jm

Obiwan
September 14, 2007, 04:09 PM
"It won't be cheap or available long"

Elighten me please

1. When exactly will the price go up?

2. When will they run out and not make more?

Then I will know how long this stack of cans will have to last :-)

Seriously...last year they said it was all gone....never coming back...never going to be cheap

Suddenly there is lots and nothing else is cheaper

9mm costs more

MudPuppy
September 14, 2007, 06:13 PM
Seen on a hypochondriac's tombstone: "See, I told you I was sick."

Oh, it'll happen...:D

nalioth
September 14, 2007, 07:05 PM
"It won't be cheap or available long"

Elighten me please

1. When exactly will the price go up?

2. When will they run out and not make more?

Then I will know how long this stack of cans will have to last :-)

Seriously...last year they said it was all gone....never coming back...never going to be cheap

Suddenly there is lots and nothing else is cheaper We are currently blessed with a glut of 5.45x39 ammo due to Poland and Bulgaria switching to 5.56 Nato weapons systems. These two countries basically dumped this stuff for a couple of pennies per round. They are not making any more.

The Russians are not planning on switching to 5.56 and recently released a small (comparitively) amount of surplus 5.45x39 from the late 70s.

When this stuff dries up (and it will) we'll be dependent on the Russians surplussing more of theirs and the commercial Russian manufacturers (Wolf, Vympel, and Barnaul).

As far as "when is the price going up", that depends on supply and demand. If I win the lotto today and tomorrow run out and buy all that Century has, I guess Sunday the price would go up :D

LeibstandarteAdH
September 14, 2007, 07:57 PM
"It won't be cheap or available long"

Elighten me please

1. When exactly will the price go up?

2. When will they run out and not make more?

Then I will know how long this stack of cans will have to last :-)

Seriously...last year they said it was all gone....never coming back...never going to be cheap

Suddenly there is lots and nothing else is cheaper

I started typing this and saw that nalioth said the exact same thing. Read the above post. And to add to the fact that Poland and Bularia just stopped making 5.45x39 and using guns in that caliber at the same time means that the entire ammount they had stockpiled is now useless to them when they can get .223 from US a lot cheaper then they can make 5.45x39. Thats on top of the already mentioned fact that they are not going to field any guns in 5.45 in the future, and had an ass load of them at the time of making that decision. Therefor the entire load of it is now on the international surplus market. When its gone, (the military surp bulgarian and polish) the russian current production (that may i remind you is currently doubble the price of the bulgarian and polish surplus) is going to be in a lot more of a demand than it is now (while competeing with the same round for half the price.) I hope no further explination is needed. . .

LeibstandarteAdH
September 14, 2007, 08:07 PM
oh, and remember that none of the market share is really going to be driven to reloading this round either. Its a bitch compared to any other round unless you cast your on lead, resize projectiles, and form/trim your own cases. Throw a needed fire forming process and expensive and or rare dies into that mix and thats why i dont even want to do it, and i have been known to make my own 7.7 jap brass too.

Obiwan
September 15, 2007, 09:36 AM
I see....so no specific answers to specific questions:D

Seriously...how tough is it to predict the price of anything to go up

I predict the price of gasoline will rise...you heard it here....mark my words

All in all sounds a whole lot like what I heard last fall....yet lo and behold....a whole bunch of new and surplus ammo is available

And even the new stuff is cheaper than 5.56 which is all the rage

And I am buying 5.45 surplus for around $.13 per round....new wolf for $.17 per round...my math is not bad enough to call that double

So the sky may falll...but nobody here knows when...that much is clear

And all the hype that the erronet is so famous for just helps drive up prices

I saw plenty of posts from people that bought tons of ammo at wildly inflated prices...right before prices came back down

And I saw some less scrupulous dealers taking pre-orders at those inflated prices

So I get a little bored with the chicken little routine

So unless anyone here knows when 5.56 will become a better bargain:confused:

thought so

I will keep shooting my AK's while I wait

geojap
September 15, 2007, 12:56 PM
Obiwan, I think that nalioth and LeibstandarteAdH did a very good job answering your initial questions about 5.45x39 prices and availability. Your tone is a little sarcastic and disrespectful to those who were trying to help you.

I think their answers are spot-on, personally. It seems they have been around long enough to see ammo supplies in different calibers become available and then dry up, so they have seen this cycle before.

rbernie
September 15, 2007, 01:04 PM
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Bulgarian__WASP__5.45x39_FMJ.html

But, as has been noted, when it's gone it'll be gone. This is no different from the Port/SA 7.62x51 milsurp situation; a weapons transition in a given nation's military dumps a bunch of surplus on the market, but it's always a temporary thing.

It's not like we won't be able to get commercial 5.45 production, but the current milsurp glut should not be viewed as a permanent thing. If you disagree, just ask all the 7.62x51 milsurp addicts what happened when the SA and Portugese militaries finally completed their transition to the 223 round and the pool of their surplus 7.62x51 dried up shortly thereafter.

LeibstandarteAdH
September 15, 2007, 10:57 PM
And I am buying 5.45 surplus for around $.13 per round....new wolf for $.17 per round...my math is not bad enough to call that double


Well i know i get my 1080 round cases from SOG for 118$, and that 5.45 wolf/barnual is currently at $215 per thousand. My math isnt that bad either. I dont know about you but I would call that just about doubble.

And anyone who told you last fall that bulgaria and poland were NOT going to have a huge surplus of a round they had stockpiled then switched to a diffrent standard rifle/carbine caliber all-togather, is a moron.

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