hunting rifle


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chezball
September 13, 2007, 07:15 PM
I am new to hunting, and need a solid, but relatively inexpensive rifle for Elk and Deer. I would also really like to use this for 1000 yard target practice as well (the idea of hitting something at 1000 yards just facinates me!). So I am looking for a one rifle/scope for both. I would like the whole combination to be less than $500, but if it really makes a difference I could go up to $900. Used is fine (probably preferable).

Could you all give me some ideas. As well I would love some specific web page pointers to scopes or rifles, or even essays on getting started.

Thanks so much for your help!

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doubleg
September 13, 2007, 07:17 PM
A good used 30.06 bolt rifle with a half decent scope. Use lighter bullets for the deer and heavier ones for the elk.

PotatoJudge
September 13, 2007, 07:35 PM
I'd get a used Remington 700, Win model 70, or Savage in 30-06 or 308. Keep the rifle in the $300 range and get a $3-500 scope. If the gun doesn't shoot MOA with it's favorite load, sell the rifle and try again (keep the scope).

The baseline Remington 700 is in the $300 range new (flat blue, synthetic stock). If you want a gun with wood and nice blueing, a clean used gun is the best bet.

Bartkowski
September 13, 2007, 07:36 PM
A good used 30.06 bolt rifle with a half decent scope. Use lighter bullets for the deer and heavier ones for the elk.

Thats what I would recommend, great for deer, fine on elk, not sure about 1000yard shooting, as I have no experience doing so, but go for it.

I like remington 700's, great guns, popular, so a used 30-06 shoudn't be to hard to come by.

chezball
September 13, 2007, 07:41 PM
Can you give me specific recommendations for scopes?

Bartkowski
September 13, 2007, 08:21 PM
It depends on your price range for the scope. A very nice scope for hunting in my opinion is about $400, but for 1000 yard shooting you will probably need some target, high magnification, bells and whistles scope. So is the $900 for the gun only or gun and scope?

chezball
September 13, 2007, 08:59 PM
Ouch! Really? A scope for 1000 yards is that much. Didn't know. I was hoping for $300-500 for a scope. Note, I am not trying to win any awards or contests, just have some fun.

Anything in that range?

Bartkowski
September 13, 2007, 09:14 PM
Yes there are very nice high quality scopes in that range, 300 will get you a fine hunting scope, but, again for 1000yards I don't know.

If I were in your position, I would look for a used remington 700 in your desired caliber, and then look for a quality scope. Start shooting and see how you do at 100, then 200, then 500.......if you even have those ranges near you. Anyway good luck with your search.

GunTech
September 13, 2007, 09:17 PM
You can get a fixed 10x SWFA SuoperSniper, which is great for 1000 yards, but may not be ideal for hunting.

Here's my basic recipe for a sub $1000 tact rifle for 1000 yards.

Savage tactical
Warne 20MOA Picatinny base.
TPS tactical rings
SWFA 10X supersniper

esmith
September 13, 2007, 09:19 PM
I would strongly suggest when you buy whatever rifle you are desiring that you go and feel several rifles that spark your interest before you buy. When you are shooting at that range everything can throw off your shot and you want to be as comfortable as possible.

chezball
September 13, 2007, 09:24 PM
OK, can someone explain the difference between a hunting scope and a 1000 yard scope?
I would imagine the hunting one needs to be much more sturdy, and able to handle the elements. What is a good hunting scope then?

Mr White
September 13, 2007, 09:55 PM
Hunting scopes are typically 3-9x. Long range target scopes are usually 20-24x. Target scopes have easily adjustable turrents where hunting scopes are typically set at a particular zero and left there. If you're not looking at shooting long-range matches and just looking to fling some lead at 1000 yard gongs now and then, a decent hunting scope will serve you OK.

Take a look at a Nikon Buckmaster 4-14. Very nice scope for the money. Better magnification than the typical 3-9. Good mil-dot reticle, easy parallax adjustment, coated optics, lifetime warranty. All in all a good scope for the money.

browningguy
September 13, 2007, 10:01 PM
You can pick up a Burris FFII 4.5-14 for under $400 most places online if you really want to shoot 1000 yards.

Otherwise the FFII in 3-9 is a good hunting scope for around $190, also the Bushnell 3200 3-9 for around the same price. http://www.natchezss.com has the Browning 3-9 on sale for around $130 on closeout, these are a Bushnell 3200 with the Browning name on them, a very good deal. You really want a heavy barrelled gun for 1000 yard shooting with a 24-28" barrel, just the opposite of what you want for most hunting. Most '06's and .308's will come with a 20-22" barrel except for the varmint models in .308.

Other calibers that will work include the .243 Winchester,.260 Remington, or 300 Win. Mag (although that last one will kick a bit). Both 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges are very popular with the long range crowd. Personally on a budget of $900 I'd go for a Savage 10FP or similar model in .308 with one of the Browning scopes. That should be workable, if not optimum, for both and leave money for a bipod for the long range shooting, a decent 20 MOA base, rings, sling, gun case and ammo to practice with. I think the barrel is a little short (20"???) but you should still be able to keep velocity supersonic at 1000 with the right loads.

rlwood29
September 13, 2007, 10:03 PM
Absolutely agree with the previous posts; 700 Remington’s are very solid rifles, I am sure there are several other excellent manufactures as well but there are a ton of 700’s out there. I was in the same position 25 years ago and the old hands then recommended the same thing 30-06, Remington 700! “Good for anything in the lower 48” Now keep in mind that if you compare the ballistics between the 30-06 and the 308 they are pretty close so that should also open some options for a used gun. Did a lot of deer “sniping” at 200 to 450 yards with the 30-06 but you just can’t skimp on the scope. I think the scopes cost more then the guns on almost every rifle I own, but I can see horns at 600 yards and take sure shoots and see horns 15 minutes earlier and later then the other hunters I am with.

Now I believe if you are talking 1000 yard shots, you are in a bit of a different league. I agree with Bartkowski, first find out if there is a range anywhere close to you that you can even practice that kind of shooting, and second get some experience at 200 meter and 300 meters and see just what you are up against in taken 1000 yard shots. I have hunted with folks that routinely have taken deer at 1000 plus yards and know folks in competition shooting around here that shoot 800 and 1000 yards OFFHAND! But they are not doing that with $900 setups and they have been at it a long time. That said; I understand that the Marines shoot 1000 yards with open sights. I couldn’t shoot a tank, probably couldn’t even see it, at 1000 yards with open sights! Good Hunting

trstafford
September 13, 2007, 10:05 PM
Step up to a 7mm mag. Will shoot flatter to 1,000 and with heaver bullets will perform more than adequately on elk, deer are not a problem.

Sunray
September 13, 2007, 10:16 PM
"...between a hunting scope and a 1000 yard scope..." Magnification and weight. Hunting scopes are usually lighter with less maginification 8x being the highest practical magnification for a deer/elk scope.
Think .308 Win, using 165 grain hunting bullets and 168 or 175 grain match bullets. Matchking 168's for up to 600 yards, the 175's past there. A 165 grain hunting bullet will kill any game in North America and the .308 loves 'em. The .308 is a bit more inherently accurate than the .30-06 too. It has been used for 1,000 yard shooting since its inception in the mid 50's and will out shoot the '06.

Legionnaire
September 13, 2007, 10:16 PM
Look around. Good deals are to be had on used guns. Here's one at Gunbroker.com (http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=80203280). I recently purchased a very similar setup: pristine Remington 700 BDL in .30-06 with a 3-9X Redfield Tracker scope, for $450. The gun looked unfired.

ReadyontheRight
September 14, 2007, 12:06 AM
To expand on the difference between hunting scopes and target scopes. With a hunting scope, you are typically going to need to put the bullet into a roughly dinner-plate-sized area to kill a deer or elk. For most of us, we are talking 200 yards or less. You sight in your Leupold (or whatever brand you like) scope on your modern bolt-action rifle and you probably have a ~2 minute of angle rig - maning that the point of aim will wander 2 inches at 100 yards. That still gives us -- (I am just guessing here, but that's really the point) -- what? 6 MOA to stay inside the dinner plate size with wind and distance estimations.

So....Hunting scopes are designed so that you sight them in once and stick with it regardless of windage and elevation.

Target sights and scopes are designed to adjust for windage and elevation on the fly. You are trying to hit a very small X-ring to beat other shooters. You also usually get "sighters" to see where you are hitting before you shoot for record.

I suggest you get a target scope and use it for hunting. Competitive shooting will get you a LOT more trigger time than hunting - which is a GOOD thing.:D Check out the F-Class in high-power shooting. It's basically unlimited and allows for a nice scope and a bipod rest.

IMHO, $900 should buy you a VERY nice rig. Rem/Win/Ruger/Savage are great. ALso be sure to check out the CZ Varmint in .308. Claw extractor, set trigger, integrated scope mounts.

If you are leaning more toward competitive shooting, check out a Garand, AR15 or M1A for Service rifle. The Ar15 can't be used very well for hunting, but it's a blast to shoot...and you can just buy a $300 open sight 30-06 or 30-30 for hunting deer and elk.

As always...my bottom line recommendation is to get an M1 Garand while you still can. www.odcmp.com

Good luck! Lots of great choices!

colt.45
September 14, 2007, 01:56 AM
for my long-range adventures i have been using a super sniper 16x. it has some really clear glass for the money and a no-bull**** milldot redicle. the rifle it is on is a rifle me and my dad recently finished building. a rem700 that we slowly bought the parts for and had put together last december. havent shot it at the big 1000 but i figgure if we can do pretty decent at 600 and 800 then 1000 shouldnt be a problem. in your position i would go with a rem 700 police model. i have the shorter ltr version and with the extra 4 inches of barrel, 1000 yards should be no problem.

good luck

yesit'sloaded
September 14, 2007, 02:05 AM
I have heard good things about the Mossberg 4x4 in .308. Do you realize just how far 1000 yards is? At that range everything comes into play, the humidity, the temperature, even the Coriolis Effect, the spin of the earth. If felon Mark Whalberg can do it, it must be no big deal right:D The 4x4 also comes in 338 win. and 30-06. I think they are in the 300-400 range.

grizz5675
September 14, 2007, 08:03 PM
how about mossberg 4x4 in 338magnum

esmith
September 14, 2007, 08:31 PM
how about mossberg 4x4 in 338magnum

Which magum, RUM or win? Either way that isnt really the best for that long range shooting, you generally want a fairly flat shooting cartridge. Also unless a brake is attached either round is going to kick like a mule and if not shot in an experts hands who is conditioned to such recoil, it may cause apprehension before a shot and therefore causing someone to flinch throwing the shot off.

rangerruck
September 14, 2007, 08:33 PM
I agree 100% with guntech, with another scope being a Tasco Varmint, 6.24.42.
Also if you cant do this , get a CZ package rifle, for about 800 to 1000, in their tactical 550 or 750 package. will do the trick quite nicely.
calibers to look at are 6.5, 7mag, 308, 30.06, 300winmag.

GunTech
September 14, 2007, 08:37 PM
It's not the weight of the bullet, it's the BC. To comment on Sunrays's post, a 155gn Lapua Scenar has a BC of 0.508, the same as a 175gn SMK. The Lapua can be driven faster, for less drop at 1000.

I'll say roght now that it is going to be hard to build a rifle for serious competition at 1000 yards for under $1000, let alone a whole system.

If you want to shoot in tactical comps, a 10x scope will work fine - it was the power of chice for military snipers prior to the adoption of variable power scopes.

You can hunt with a 10X, but you will be handicapped at short range thanks to the restricted field of view.

Aside from the Savage previously mentioned, I'd look for a good used Reminton LTR, or an FN PBR. Both rifles are light enough for hunting, but have the accuracy for 1K shooting.

I'd also recommend 308, unless you handload. Even then, 308 is a great round. There is a much larger variety of bullets, particularly low BC match grade bullets than for just about any other caliber. 308 also has moderate recoil, so you want get beat up, and brass is available and cheap.

If you won't be hunting anything larger than deer, check out the 260 Remington. There is a plethora of high BC long range bullets that mnake it a great long range target round. Unfortunately, the number of rifles suitable for match use are extremely limited.

7mm mag, 30-06 and similar rounds are really hunting only rounds. You won't find any suitable match grade rifles in these calibers 'off the shelf'.

GunTech
September 14, 2007, 08:45 PM
What 1000 yards looks like:

http://www.precisionrifle.org/gallery/albums/userpics/normal_P4210022composite.jpg

MCgunner
September 14, 2007, 08:57 PM
Savage and buy a $200 Weaver 2x10 for it and live happy. Well, I don't know, you're gonna probably want one of those 16 power jobs Weaver sells and it's something under 400 I think, if you're going to do the thousand yard thing.

Calibers for high BC, I'd look into 6.5mm or 7mm. Those calibers are superior to the 30 cal selection for BC and sectional density (important in hunting). I'd think 7mm Rem Mag or maybe 7mm STW. Of course, I reload. The STW is a flat shootin' round with a heavy 7mm match bullet.

skinewmexico
September 14, 2007, 10:59 PM
A 338 Winmag will be real fun to shoot for a while at 1000 yards. The 6.5 calibers dominate 1000 yard shooting now. Get a modern rifle, chambered in 6.5X55. You can get high BC bullets, and load them hot enough to keep them supersonic at 1000 yards. Great hunting round too. The scope thing is tough to work around. Cross hairs on the average hunting scope will more than cover most 1000 yard targets, leaving you guessing.

quicktime
September 14, 2007, 11:15 PM
I am new to hunting, and need a solid, but relatively inexpensive rifle for Elk and Deer. I would also really like to use this for 1000 yard target practice as well

I hate to break the news to you and everyone on the thread but these are two very different rifles. It is like going in to a truck dealer and saying yeah I want something that I can drive every day and get's good gas mileage, and I have a 40' boat and 10 kids to haul to the lake every weekend. You are not giong to be able to find one vehicle that will feasibly meet your goals.

Shooting at a thousand yards with a scoped rifle falls under NRA F-class rules. If you want to stand a reasonable chance of doing well in these matches you need at the bare minimum a reworked factory gun and preferably a purpose built custom actioned rifle. Bare minimum for a reliable rifle will be around 2000 and that is assuming you find some used parts and have a good relationship with a competent gunsmith.

I know I will be catching some heat from guys that are out there shooting box stock rifles with budget optics and saying they shoot all X's. But the guys that are out there in the top 5 every match have purpose built rifles with quality optics. I am assembling the parts for an F-class gun right now so I will give you a run down on price's to give you an idea. This is a list for a top shelf unit and can be done for less but it will give you an idea.

1. Action (Nesika or Surgeon) 1500
I have to use Nesika because I am a Lefty.
2. Trigger 600
Personal choice of a Grunig&Elmiger there are a lot cheaper
3. Barrel 350
Personal choice Mark Chanlynn but price is pretty consistent
4. Stock 600 (Includes Adjustable butt plate and cheekpiece)
Personal choice Ian Robertson
5. Scope 1600
Personal choice Nightforce
6. Gunsmithing 2000 (Quality guy with a lot of match and metal winning guns)
Includes: thread and chamber barrel, pillar bed, inlet stock and bottom metal,fit weird trigger, carbon fiber line barrel channel (cool factor).
7. Paint 500
(All pimp target guns have wicked paint jobs)

Grand Total (now that I have added it up it is depressing) 7150.00

That is the grand total for a top notch F-class gun. Oh by the way the caliber will be a 6.5 or 7mm. Jury is still out.

Remember all you have to do is punch a hole in paper not humanely harvest an animal and you have to do it for 100-150 shots over the weekend. That is why you very rarely see the big monster magnums on the firing line. This is just a list for F-class target shooting. If you just want to go out and shoot at metallic ringers at 1000 yards to see if you can make some noise then by all means take your 30-06 or your 300 mag out and have a great time. There is nothing better than trigger time and reading the wind to help you in the woods when you are hunting in my opinion. And also do not be discouraged by my rifle bill. I think you could get set up for around 2000 and still do reasonably well (The 2000 includes spotting scope and mat and scope stand) But if you are new to hunting and rifles all together do not start out by shooting 1000 yards. Go out and shoot at your local range. If they have some 300-600 yard shoots go to those the first time leave your rifle at home and just go out and talk to the people at the range and get a feel for it. There is a wealth of information out there so soak it up enjoy yourself and most of all just get as much trigger time as you can at whatever range you have available.

Bartkowski
September 14, 2007, 11:23 PM
$500 for paint, I spend that on a rifle, although not for target shooting a good solid hunting rifle. I sure wish my pockets were as deep as yours.

quicktime
September 15, 2007, 05:20 AM
There are some benefits to a six figure salary and no children. Ridiculous amounts of money in the gun safe is one of them. Now I just wish my gunsmith was out of the desert to build it.

Legionnaire
September 15, 2007, 08:48 AM
quicktime, I'm sure you're "on the money" regarding a competition rig. But the OP said he was interested in a hunting rifle with which he could do some 1,000 target practice. You can do that without the expense of a custom rig. I'm with you on something other than a magnum (although I'm working on a .300 mag for that purpose). My recommendation would be a good solid bolt action in .308. With heavy (175 grain) match ammo, one should be able to do the occasional 1000 yard target shoot, but still have a rifle that's not overkill for hunting. I'm keying off the fact that the OP said he primarily wanted a hunting rifle.

That said, a rifle capable of regularly hitting targets at 1,000 yards isn't likely going to be one you'd want to schlep through the deer woods. For the latter, I prefer a lightweight, carbine-length bolt action. Although it's a .308, it's not MOA accurate, more typically shooting 1.5-2.0" groups with factory deer loads. But that's plenty accurate for deer. A 1000 yard gun, in contrast, really needs to be consistently sub-MOA.

GunTech
September 15, 2007, 09:24 AM
quicktime

The poster says he is new to hunting (and probably long range shooting too) so spending a huge amount of moeny would be a toptal waste. He needs to burn up several barrels before even thinking about spending a lot of money on a rifle for F Class. A beginner should never be advised to buy the ultimate right off the bat. For one thing, he woun't be able to utililize the capability, so it's a waste of money. Also, we each have our own preferences, typically based on experience. What works for you or me may not work for him.

It's been my experience that a lot of rifles seen at high end competitions cross over from utility to showing who has the biggest wallet. Good optics and a consisten subMOA rifle will go a long way towards winning. I shoot tactical, rather than F class (but have done latter) and the F class rifle is so specialized that it is pretty much a single use gun. I have and do compete with my tactical rifle, and hunt too. It serves both purposes well.

http://guntech.com/hunt/deer.jpg

MCgunner
September 15, 2007, 12:29 PM
quicktime, I'm sure you're "on the money" regarding a competition rig. But the OP said he was interested in a hunting rifle with which he could do some 1,000 target practice.

Exactly. Hey, on the shotgun forum, there are tons of guys that shoot skeet and trap with an 870. Are they serious trap shooters? Nah, I don't think so. But, hey, I bet they have fun!

The Savage is the cheapest platform I know of that can consistently offer 1 moa or better accuracy and that's why I mentioned it. With proper scope, it can do both jobs, hunting and INFORMAL 1000 yard shooting. Is it perfect for both? Nah, but hey, it will be an accurate, fun rifle that can hunt with the best of 'em. If I got all serious about 1000 yard shooting, yeah, I'd have to raid one of my IRAs. For hunting, I love my little Remington M7, compact, light, powerful (.308) enough, and very accurate (1MOA). But, I can hunt stands like I do mostly anymore with my Hakim battle rifle if I had to, friggin' weighs about what one of those 16" guns on the Missouri did. LOL!

Never No More
September 15, 2007, 01:55 PM
Chezball,

Check you area for a Remington 700p in 308. Go on-line to SWAFA and buy a 10x Super Sniper scope, and TPS rings from Brownells.

You will be under $1000 easy, and have more rifle than store bought ammo can handle.

The reason for 308 over 30-06 is simple, you can get more goodies for a 308.

The gun world considers the 30-06 round oboslete, so not as much is made for those rifles.

BTW I own two 30-06 rifles, on gas, one bolt, and would owning nothing else :-)

But then Ive been reloading for over 40 years and built both rifles from the chamber up.

CajunTim
September 15, 2007, 02:41 PM
Just food for thought.

Here is a little reading material http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=237232#Post237232

Here is a good starter package http://www.snipercentral.com/entrypackage.htm

You have to ask yourself what is the closest range you will be hunting so you know what your field of view will be when deciding on a scope. Also where is your priority going to be hunting or paper punching? Are you going to be carrying this rig for miles up steep hills? My tacticool/hunting rig weighs 13.4lbs unloaded I walk a 1/4 mile to my deer stand not a big deal for me. For punching paper a heavy barrel is preferable.

This is what I have:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/78360
http://www.bigrivertactical.com/catalog/item/4446793/4446707.htm
I went overboard for with rings and bases but a good set could be had for 140ish you would need a 20moa with this scope.
I also added a bipod and swapped the stock, I have about $2000 (my wife has no clue)in my rig as I bought then sold stuff at a lost to upgrade stuff like my scope. Buy once, cry once and be done with it.

Here is a good hunting rig, they have raised the price by almost $40 in the past few weeks it does come in other calibers.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_62/products_id/14607

www.budsgunshop.com I find has usually the best prices on rifles.

I'm a .308 junky.

The Annoyed Man
September 15, 2007, 03:29 PM
Chezball, I can understand the desire to get a do-all rifle and scope combo for under $500 that will take deer/elk AND shoot sub MOA at 1,000 yards, but in all honesty, unless you are buying used and getting a VERY good deal, I don't think that this is practically possible. And if your rifle won't shoot sub MOA, there isn't much point in trying to hit something at 1,000 yards.

However, if you are willing to invest between $1,000 and $1,500, I think you can get something that will fit the bill very nicely in either .308 or .30-06, and have a very nice rifle indeed.

In my own case, I bought:
• Remington 700 VSF .308 (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_VSF.asp) - $831.00 (MSRP $1,185.00 for the left handed version, $1,159.00 for right handed; mine is LH)
• Leupold VX-III 4.5-14x50mm scope w/ B&C reticle (http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shooting/products/scopes/vx-iii-riflescopes/vx-iii-4-5-14x50mm/) - $530.00 (MSRP $1,005.00)
• Leupold bases, rings, and flip up end caps - approximately $125.00 (maybe less, I don't remember for sure).

The point is, I got almost $2,200 worth of rifle and scope for less than $1,400 (not counting bases, rings, and end caps), and after having done a little post purchase research, it seems that I didn't get any kind of unusual pricing. NOBODY sells a VX-III scope at full retail, and that seems to hold true for the rifle itself, so it's not like I scored some special kind of deal.

My son bought a Savage 10FP-HS Precision (http://www.savagearms.com/10fphsprecision.htm) for $800, which retails for $864, and a Bushnell 4200 Elite 6-24x40mm (http://bushnell.com/general/riflescopes_elite4200_42-6244m.cfm) for about $400. So again, for a price falling between $1,000 and $1,500, you've got an accurate rifle scope combo that can be used for both kinds of shooting you're interested in.

With firearms, it goes the same as for most things... ...you tend to get what you paid for. If you're willing to spend just a little more than your initial estimate, you'll have something that not only will shoot the tits off a mother flea at 100 yards, you'll also have a truly fine piece of equipment that will give you satisfaction to own and look at. As others have pointed out here, you CAN get an accurate rifle scope combo for $1,000 or less, but what will your long term ownership experience be like?

Like most people, I don't have a 1,000 yard range immediately nearby to go and test myself, the nearest one being Tac Pro Shooting Center (http://tacproshootingcenter.com/index.html) about 80 or 90 miles from where I live, so I don't truly know what my rifle will do at that distance, or for that matter, what these aging eyes of mine will do. But at 100 yards, if I'm on my game, I get 3/8" - 1/2" groups out of it with regular consistency, and the .308 round is adequate to most North American game, including elk, if you place your shot well and use the right bullets.

Keep in mind that, if you want to do 1,000 yard shooting, you're going to have to add accessories like a 20 MOA tapered scope base to help your scope reach out that far. However, with a rig like the two I've described above, you can expect to shoot reliably out to 600 yards, which is a lot further than you would think it is, and beyond which it would be ethical to shoot at an animal anyway. And, you can shoot out to 1,000 yards if you pony up for some extra equipment, and a whole LOT of range time. And, as Guntech pointed out with his excellent picture at the bottom of page one of this thread of what 1,000 yards actually looks like, it's intimidating as hell, and a very long distance indeed.

I guess I'm a long winded old poot. :D

GunTech
September 15, 2007, 06:27 PM
CajunTim,

Thanks for the info on the Howa package. Look like a decent rifle and scope for under $1000. It is pretty hard to get an decent righ for LR shooting for under 1K. One thing you will find if you do any shooting at 1000 yards is that what looks like a decent scope in the store turns out to be crap on the range.

Most scopes are meant for 3-400 yards max, abnd for that even a relatively cheap scope will work. But in my experience, once you go to 100 yards and further, optics become critical The Bushnell and Supersniper are adequate - barely. But once you look through a Nightforce, Schmitt and Bender or USO at 1000 yards, you'll appreciate good glass.

The good news is that you get get really first rate Schott glass optics in the USO ST-10S for under $900. That sounds like a lot until you realize that the Leupold MkIV M1 and M3 sell for $1300 and don't have the same resolution. The ST-10 is probably one of the best values out there for long range glass.

I realize that we are now over budget by about $500, but it is something to think about.

quicktime
September 15, 2007, 10:18 PM
I by no means meant to discourage your interest in 1000 yard shooting. I put together a list of MY preferences and budget for a top shelf F class gun. Yes you can buy a factory gun that is capable of 1 MOA accuracy and utilize it in 1000 yard competition. Will you win? Probably not. Will you have fun? I hope so but I have also seen a lot of people with sub par equipment get really discouraged and quit. My best advice to you is buy your hunting gun to to your local range and shoot as much as you can afford. Buy some books on target positions and shooting techniques. If you are lucky enough to know someone in target shooting sit down with them an pick their brain. Or even better go with them out to the range and have them give you some pointers. Once you get learned up on the basics start to learn how to read wind then. Save your money for an AR and shoot service rifle with it until the first barrel burns out and then rebarrel it and shoot some more. Service rifle is honestly some of the best and cheapest training to get you set up with the basic skills for target shooting as well as hunting. And nothing is better than trigger time and service rifle gives you plenty. So bottom line is buy what you can afford and get out to the range for some quality trigger time.

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