FAL or M14 combat load


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eldon519
September 14, 2007, 02:02 PM
Does anyone know what the typical combat load (round count) for a soldier carrying an FAL or an M14 is/was?

I've got an FAL on order, and I was kind of interested on what an appropriate quantity of magazines to have on hand would be for a SHTF scenario. I'm thinking a short-term duration here. Obviously the more mags and ammo the better, but there are practical limits.

TIA

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aloharover
September 14, 2007, 02:16 PM
7.62 is heavy!! I carried 1k one time and about broke my back.
But I would think 180 to be the minimum number to shoot for. A lot will depend on how you want to carry it (vest, leb, lbv, etc) will effect the practicallity.

That would be 4 dual mag pouches, two on each side, one mag in the weapon.

otomik
September 14, 2007, 02:23 PM
6 mags + 1 in weapon so 140 rounds

combat load for the m1garand is 6 clips + 1 so 56 rounds
combat load for the m-16 is 180 rounds

If you're thinking about short term duration I don't think a rifle really fits in with a 72 hour bag. All that weight you could be carrying more water. I'm not even sure it's right for Katrina, it's more a Jericho long term thing.

Nightcrawler
September 14, 2007, 02:23 PM
A load bearing vest from FMCO allows you to carry eight (http://www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/001.html#1), twelve (http://www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/001.html#2), or (!!) twenty (http://www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/003.html#2).

It just depends on how much weight you're willing to put up with. I've got a brand new Tactical Tailor MOLLE vest that I'm going to rig up for 3-gun. I'm going to try for eight mags and see how I like it. Eight is the standard I want to use, six is okay, three or four is a light loadout. Depends on the mission.

Various South African, Rhodesian, and British rigs for the FAL/L1A1 allowed them to carry sometimes more than ten magazines. It's just a matter of weight.

M1 Shooter
September 14, 2007, 02:35 PM
The standard combat load for the M14 was 4 20-round mags in pouches plus one in the rifle for a total of 100 rounds. I'm not sure what it was for the FAL, and different countries probably had different ways of doing it, but it wouldn't surprise me if most countries standard combat load for the FAL was the same as for the M14.

combat load for the m1garand is 6 clips + 1 so 56 rounds

Actually, the standard combat load for the M1 was 88 rounds. 10 8-round clips in the 10 pocket cartridge belt plus one full clip in the rifle = 88 rounds.

combat load for the m-16 is 180 rounds

Again, you're wrong, sorry. The standard combat load with the M16 is 7 magazines, or at least it was when I was in the Army. 6 in pouches + 1 in the rifle. With 30 round mags that is 210 rounds. With 20 rounders it is 140 rounds.

Of course, standard combat loads aren't usually followed in war zones. Most grunts will pack as much ammo as they possibly can, which will often be much more than the "standard" load.

USMC Tanker
September 14, 2007, 02:47 PM
I'd say that six 20-round magazines in a chest rig and one 20-round magazine in the weapon would be a suitable combat load.

That would get you through a pretty good slug fest, though an extra 200-500 rounds in your vehicle on stripper clips would supplement you nicely.

fastpat
September 14, 2007, 02:52 PM
The current combat load for either an M14 or FAL is 180 rounds, the combat load for an M16 is 240 rounds.

Though most in actual combat carry as much ammo with them as they can.

azredhawk44
September 14, 2007, 03:01 PM
Does anyone know what the typical combat load (round count) for a soldier carrying an FAL or an M14 is/was?

I've got an FAL on order, and I was kind of interested on what an appropriate quantity of magazines to have on hand would be for a SHTF scenario. I'm thinking a short-term duration here. Obviously the more mags and ammo the better, but there are practical limits.

Eldon:

Not to attempt to raise your feathers at all, but I think you should consider that you are not a soldier in a warzone.

That being said, you should only restrict your preparedness weaponry to what you are comfortable carrying. If you are as fit as a soldier and can handle all the weight of 150-200 rounds of .308 along with a 10 pound rifle w/ magazines, then more power to you.

I am not a soldier, my SHTF rifle is a Springfield M1A Scout, and in the event that I have to head out of Dodge and live like a turtle (off my back), I plan on carrying 5 total magazines. The weight is better spent in my particular situation on water and supplies.

If I am holed up in my home or I can bug out with my vehicle, I have a total of 12 M14 magazines at my disposal, and wouldn't mind having a few more.

aloharover
September 14, 2007, 03:06 PM
Of course, standard combat loads aren't usually followed in war zones. Most grunts will pack as much ammo as they possibly can, which will often be much more than the "standard" load.

So true. While doing convoys, 1 in the weapon, 1 on the stock, 8 on my vest, 8 in the BOB. All loaded to 28.

DMK
September 14, 2007, 03:13 PM
I agree with azredhawk44. While soldiers in combat tend to carry a bit more ammo than an official combat load would dictate, a civilian is not on the offensive and would not expect to be going up against a squad of similarly armed attackers.

In most realistic (temporary) situations, three or four mags would be more than plenty. From the accounts I've read in real life SHTF situations, would be criminal opportunists ran at the first presentation of a gun. If shots were fired, it was only a few rounds.

Obiwan
September 14, 2007, 04:19 PM
I find it hard to believe that the average civillian encounter could not be solved with 1-2 mags

As I recall....loaded fal mags are rather brick-like

fastpat
September 14, 2007, 04:27 PM
My response was based on the question posed by the OP, which was "what is the combat load for these two rifles".

FAL mags weigh about the same as M14 mags when loaded.

Most of us over "50-ish" types ought not consider running anywhere with a rifle much less ammo. However, having both a well stock BoB and/or firing position is another story.:)

AndyC
September 14, 2007, 05:37 PM
In the South African Defence Force, the standard webbing in my day (pattern 70) had space for 12 mags (4 in front in 2 dual-pouches and 8 in 4 dual-pouches behind) - and 1 on the FAL (or R1 as we called it)

eldon519
September 14, 2007, 06:21 PM
Alot of you guys hit the mark. I was just curious what's considered good enough for the military. I'm not really that into Mad Max style SHTF preparation, and I know the reality of a good SHTF plan revolves more around water, food, shelter, etc than weaponry. I generally try to stay away from the arm-chair commando stuff. Realistically a single 10-rounder will be more than I would ever need.

When I said short term also I didn't really have a specific timeline in mind. Depending on the forum, alot of people immediately think long-term, rest of your life nuclear holocaustal situations where extremists want thousands and thousands of rounds, boxes full of magazines and cabinets full of guns. I was simply trying to differentiate from that.

Thanks for the information.

W.E.G.
September 14, 2007, 06:25 PM
Correct quantity of FAL mags?

Hmmmm....

I'll let you know when I get there.

SoCalShooter
September 14, 2007, 06:28 PM
some of socalshooter's golden rules

You cannot have enough ammo
You cannot have enough magazines

I would figure 10 30 rounders at the least with some type of vest config and you could put the rest in your back pack.

My friends make fun of me for taking a side arm when hunting for dove...I take that and 6 magazines not to mention I had on something like 200 rounds of shotgun ammo. I did not end my day early because I did not have enough ammo.

MudPuppy
September 14, 2007, 06:35 PM
Different questions, different missions.

I may want a hundred mags in my vehicle or house, if I'm carrying post shtf, I want maybe 4+1 mags for a fal.

fastpat
September 14, 2007, 06:47 PM
Alot of you guys hit the mark. I was just curious what's considered good enough for the military. I'm not really that into Mad Max style SHTF preparation, and I know the reality of a good SHTF plan revolves more around water, food, shelter, etc than weaponry. I generally try to stay away from the arm-chair commando stuff. Realistically a single 10-rounder will be more than I would ever need.

When I said short term also I didn't really have a specific timeline in mind. Depending on the forum, alot of people immediately think long-term, rest of your life nuclear holocaustal situations where extremists want thousands and thousands of rounds, boxes full of magazines and cabinets full of guns. I was simply trying to differentiate from that.

Thanks for the information.When I lived in CA, I tried to maintain food for 30 days. It's earthquake country and that's a rational and doable level of sustainability. Seems to me that should include arms and what's necessary to operate them. Determining what a 30 day supply actually is is difficult.

Now that I've returned home to the south, near hurricane country the same applies I think. In December 2005, we had a 6 day power outage after a huge ice storm for example, and were about 24 hours without being able to drive an ordinary car down the road. Extreme, no, but you stop and think about what you'd need for longer problem times when those things happen.

Thinking about potential issues is more than half way to solving them.

Fosbery
September 14, 2007, 06:49 PM
Rule was: "as much as you want, but don't take the piss."

Patrolling the streets of Belfast, four is plenty: if you get ambushed you'll probably be dead before you get any rounds off and if you survive they'll have gone by the time you've reloaded.

Battling battalions of Argies or pretending to stick it to the commies, most would go for eight, plus one in the shooter, and as much as you could carry in your bergan on stripper clips. You'd also want some linked ammo for the gimpies.

SoCalShooter
September 14, 2007, 06:52 PM
What about post apocylyptic shtf zombie fighting? directed at fosbery!

lionking
September 14, 2007, 07:42 PM
SoCal....lol!.Better to just get a flamethrower in that case.

USMC Tanker
September 14, 2007, 07:44 PM
If/when the SHTF, I won't be messing around. Even in a scenario that isn't post-apocylyptic (Los Angeles Riots for instance).

Imagine a rioting, looting, pillaging, destructive, violent MOB right outside your front door. Torching cars, kicking in doors, breaking windows, etc. Local law enforcement will not have a very good response time when the whole city is engulfed in chaos.

Yes, I'm a Marine. Yes, I'm a combat veteran. However even if I wasn't, I'd be prepared for the worst due to my responsibility to my wife and family.

It'll be a full combat load for this Marine.

PS-I'm not saying I'd be firing at the cyclic rate at a mob outside my front door. I'd only start to shoot once they entered my home.

Fosbery
September 14, 2007, 08:16 PM
What about post apocylyptic shtf zombie fighting? directed at fosbery!

Bayonets do fine for the slow-moving brain-eaters :p

SoCalShooter
September 14, 2007, 08:17 PM
lol glad to know, my sks's and my mosin all came with bayonets!

daniel (australia)
September 14, 2007, 10:00 PM
FWIW in Australian service the "standard" equipment schedule for issue of an L1A1 was rifle plus three mags plus cleaning kit. However the basic webbing was set up with two basic pouches, one either side at the front, each of which could carry three mags, plus whatever you could manage in boxes or bandoliers of stripper clips in your bumpack and big pack (100 rounds was fairly standard), plus whatever link you could manage for the "gun" (section M60), plus spare batteries for the radio (AN/PRC 77), plus all the other stuff you had to carry to get the job done, eat, etc. It all adds up!

elmerfudd
September 14, 2007, 10:16 PM
My understanding was that South African battlepacks contained 140 rounds because that was the standard load. 1 mag in the rifle, 6 in pouches.

Sunray
September 15, 2007, 01:07 AM
In the olden days, when the CF had C1A1's and the old combat uniform, a troopie could carry 6 20 round mags in his shirt alone. Add the jacket and there's 6 more for a total of 240 rounds on his person. Two more could be carried loose in each side pocket too. If a troopie did have those extra 4, he'd be lugging 320 plus a 120 pound pack. Knew one small statured PBI Sgt. who said he was drunk most of the time, on exercise, to deal with the pain. Mind you, they didn't get 320 nor 240 rounds often.
The side pockets had two sewn in pouches plus two breast pockets on the shirt and the jacket.

ArchAngelCD
September 15, 2007, 05:08 AM
Why is it that almost everyone here is guessing what the Assault Load is for each rifle? What's even worse is some are basing their guess on vests that can be bought on the NET...:rolleyes:

The Standard Weapons Assault Load for the US Marines carrying a M16A2 was (not sure if it's changed) 1 M16A2 Service Rifle 7.900 lbs, 1 Sling 00.420 lbs, 7 Mags 01.050 lbs each, 7.350 lbs total, 1 M7 Bayonet with Scabbard 01.300 lbs, M67 Fragmentation Hand Grenade (2) 2.000 lbs.

Nightcrawler
September 15, 2007, 05:47 AM
The original question, as I interpreted it, was more of what is an appropriate battle load for an M14 rifle, based on what militaries of the time issued, rather than what was historically the typical "standard issue". It's worth repeating what others have said, in that in actual war zones few soldiers limited themselves to the "issue" battle load if they could avoid doing so.

In any case, I don't see what describing the load out for the M16 rifle has to do with a discussion of ammunition loadouts for M14 and FAL rifles.

In any case, you only have to look at pictures of GIs in Iraq to realize that the whole "you only get seven magazines" thing has basically been thrown out.

Macgille
September 15, 2007, 07:16 AM
When I was in the Army I carried an m-60 with 400 rds and my helper carried 400. In addition I carried a .45 and 6 mags. plus my gear. Now I couldn't run flat out for 100 yd. My rifle would be an SKS and 200 rounds, several other rifles in various calibers and an easy chair.:uhoh:

Any combat I engage in will be within 50 yards of my front door, and the extra ammo can be stacked behind my chair.:neener:

However, since the only combat I expect to see will be on television, I am not worried about ammo availability. As long as the beer and chips hold out I can make it.:D

DMK
September 15, 2007, 09:06 PM
As long as the beer and chips hold out I can make itYea, but see that's when the SHTF. When everyone else's beer and chips run out. ;)

funfaler
September 16, 2007, 12:05 PM
Also keep in mind.

That FAL mags are drying up. The prices are on the rise and they are not importing any more, nor making them yet.

What you carry is what you can carry and what you think you need. However, what you buy should be 4-5 times the higher number. They ain't going to get cheaper and they ain't going to become more plentyful.

Buy cheap and stack deep!

I carry 8+1 in my vests

ps. mags do break and get lost, especially when you use them.

Enjoy the FAL and get yourself to an Appleseed shoot, you will learn how to really enjoy the long range joy it can bring you ;) http://www.appleseedinfo.org

eab
September 16, 2007, 12:30 PM
Thats what I did with my G3 mags, I got 30-40 or so mags... Don't plan on carrying that many. However at $1.5-$3.00 per G3 mag you are a fool not to have a ton if you have a G3/CETME. Maybe I would carry 9 mags, 8 in 4 pouches and one in the gun.

However I don't even have ammo for 9 mags right now so the point is moot.

wcwhitey
September 16, 2007, 01:13 PM
My only reply is that the m14 can also be loaded by stripper clip. Easy to have a few bandoleers handy. I have five 20 rd mags for my M1A but several bandoleers put together and plenty of stripper clips. I take the bandoleer to the range and practice topping off with the stripper clips. Also use the stripper clips to load the mags as it was intended. I have no experience with the FAL but Mags were cheap for a while (Unlike the M14's) making it more affordable to have a dozen or so standing by. Bill

HorseSoldier
September 16, 2007, 03:11 PM
Prices have gone up somewhat, but not significantly. You can still get used, very good condition from DSA for $7.00 each, excellent condition for $12.00/ea.

Unlike M14 mags, also, the FAL is still the standard service rifle for a few nations out there with credibly large militaries and/or security forces who have not had the resources to fully replace 7.62x51 battle rifles, so there's the prospect of some additional magazines (plus parts and kits) entering the market as surplus in the coming years.

Float Pilot
September 16, 2007, 05:03 PM
The original load for an M-14 was 4 mags on the gear and one for the weapon.
The designated auto-rifleman carried 6 or 8 magazines on his combat suspenders.

However... additional ammunition was carried or issued in bandoleers.
A five round stripper clip can top off an M-14 magazine via the stripper clip guide on top of the action, or while using ( the spoon) on a magazine which is not in the weapon.


Later when I was in a LRS-Det we were all issued 7 magazines (210 rounds ready) for our M-16A1 and A2s. Plus bandoleer ammo..(10 round stripper clips)
We were then encourages to "OBTAIN" additional magazines using our own methods.
I tried carrying 14 magazines for a time, but it sure took up space that I needed for water, food and dry socks.

JShirley
September 16, 2007, 06:02 PM
10 30 rounders at the least

SoCalShooter, that just tells me you either don't have a FAL/STG-58/SLR/G1 or didn't actually read the OP.

If you're marching/planning on spending a lot of time on foot, 140 would be about the practical reasonable limit, with any sort of additional gear at all. I think the most I carried in Afghanistan was 9 30-rd M16 mags, plus more in vehicle. If I'd had one of my FALs, I would have settled for 6+1 20-rd mags.

John

wcwhitey
September 16, 2007, 07:32 PM
Float Pilot, this was the loading to which I referred. One in the gun, 4 in pouches, the rest via bandoleers. Thank You!

Over that it becomes a case of when is too much just too much. I was reared and trained with the M14, I was 18 to boot. I cannot imagine carrying 10 mags and a full ruck sack for any period of time. Especially now at forty-something. Bill

roscoe
September 17, 2007, 01:53 AM
Battling battalions of Argies or pretending to stick it to the commies, most would go for eight, plus one in the shooter, and as much as you could carry in your bergan on stripper clips. You'd also want some linked ammo for the gimpies.

Say what?

Dionysusigma
September 17, 2007, 03:22 AM
Battling battalions of Argies...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War

... most would go for eight, plus one in the shooter...
Eight magazines, plus one in the rifle.

and as much as you could carry in your bergan on stripper clips.
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/dprlb1nx.html

You'd also want some linked ammo for the gimpies.
http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/pw/pw_mg.htm

If I were going anywhere, and there were things afoot, I've got for my AR a 3 x 30rd magazine pouch (used to be able to hold 2 grenades, but I removed those pockets since where am I ever gonna get or need a grenade?), plus one 20-rounder for the rifle itself.

Fosbery
September 17, 2007, 05:27 AM
Thanks for overcoming the Atlantic barrier Dionysusigma :)

chieftain
September 17, 2007, 06:23 AM
The original question, as I interpreted it, was more of what is an appropriate battle load for an M14 rifle, based on what militaries of the time issued, rather than what was historically the typical "standard issue". It's worth repeating what others have said, in that in actual war zones few soldiers limited themselves to the "issue" battle load if they could avoid doing so.

In any case, I don't see what describing the load out for the M16 rifle has to do with a discussion of ammunition loadouts for M14 and FAL rifles.

In any case, you only have to look at pictures of GIs in Iraq to realize that the whole "you only get seven magazines" thing has basically been thrown out.

BINGO! YOU GOT IT.

In Vietnam I was issued a M14 and 6 Magazines in 1967. It was my first tour with the 3rd Marine Division. When they switched from real rifles, to the Matty Mattel, because I was always in "attached" status I was able to hang on to my M14 through spring of 69 in my second tour.

As soon as I was initially issued that first group of 6 magazines, my Gunny, told me to get my A** over to the Med Battalion and get some magazines out of the KIA barrels. I asked how many, and he asked me how many could I carry. I didn't know the answer to that, at that time. So I went over an "liberated" a dozen.

To shorten the long boring wandering tale. After I had some time in country and had figured out what I needed and used.

I carried a total of 16 loaded Magazines (19 rounds per magazine) in the rifle and on me. Then additional ammo in bandoleers. My belt alone weighed in at 57 lbs. weighed it once at sick Bay.

Today if I had to do local battle with my M1A I would take 5 of my 13 magazines. This ain't War as I know it.

When I finally got stuck with the black POS I carried 32 loaded magazines with 15 rounds in each. And those mags were not very reliable. Had to carry a pair of Slip joint pliers to "OFTEN" bend the magazines square enough to fit into the rifle.

That is my story.

Go figure.

Fred

eldon519
September 17, 2007, 08:29 AM
Good story Fred; I liked it.

Rifleman 173
October 18, 2007, 06:01 PM
When I was in Nam using an XM-21 sniper rifle, I carried 10 magazines. One mag was in the rifle, 4 in pouches meant for 7.62 magazines and 5 other mags in an old 2 quart canteen pouch. When I was at our field perimeter position, I had another 10 loaded up and available for me to use if we ever got hit there. So, on the move I had 10 heavy 7.62 sniper rifle magazines loaded up and spread out over my body. In the field position I had 20 ready to go, 10 one me and 10 more in a sandbag. That was not counting my two scopes (one day scope and one night scope), batteries for the night scope, a knife, a .45 pistol, water and a poncho liner when we moved out. Believe me, it as a heavy mess that I could not lug now in my senior years. Over the years, because of back injuries and arthritis, I would now carry a .223 accurized rifle of some sort even though I LOVED my 7.62 sniper rifle back in Nam.

Trebor
October 18, 2007, 10:57 PM
It was my first tour with the 3rd Marine Division. When they switched from real rifles, to the Matty Mattel, because I was always in "attached" status I was able to hang on to my M14 through spring of 69 in my second tour.

Could you clarify what you meant by "attached" status and why it allowed you to keep carrying the M-14?

No real reason, just curious and I can't quite understand the circumstance.

goon
October 18, 2007, 11:37 PM
I love how

A. the british guy who responded to this thread (with good info) still has to have his english translated into our english.

B. that someone found sources to do that.

:)

Wolfgang2000
October 18, 2007, 11:42 PM
Magazine and ammo are like jello, "there is always room for more". You can never have to much ammo or to many magazines. My minimum amount of magazines is twice the amount I would normally carry.

When I carry my FN I'm using my old H harness with the M14 pouch's.

It's old but it works!

Andrewsky
October 19, 2007, 01:22 AM
I don't know about you guys...but I just received some ALICE Web Gear (in black) and it is fantastic. I have 3 M1956 magazine pouches, also in black, on the way. That would allow me to carry six of my M1A mags on me and one in the gun.

On M14Forum.com there was an Iraq Vet who said he carried 10 M14 magazines for a while and later on trimmed it down to 6+1. Apparently they were doing a lot of walking through mud and he wanted a lighter load.

chieftain
October 19, 2007, 03:29 AM
Could you clarify what you meant by "attached" status and why it allowed you to keep carrying the M-14?

No real reason, just curious and I can't quite understand the circumstance.

I was in TACP (tactical Air control parties) We were ground FAC's. We are officially out of 1stWing but I reported to 3rdMardiv Division Air officer in 1967. Got my equipment from Danang, and in two days reported to Dong Ha. As long as I did not take my M14 back to Danang, I could not turn it in.

So any time I went to Danang, I didn't take the M14, I would take something else. Thompson, M2 Carbine, Swedish 'K' etc.... and a bunch of Combloc stuff besides the AK. Would on occasion get chewed out, but nothing special because no one really cared that much what I carried. As long as I could get the job done.

I was finally confronted by a Marine Brigadier in 1969, who I don't remember the name of, but he had his Aide get my name and unit. usually they would just tell me to turn it in. They didn't know who I was or what my unit was. Because we were rarely with the same outfit to long, it was very hard to track us down. Anyway, once that Aide had my Name Rank, Service number and outfit, I would have been toast to ignore that order. So I turned my M14 in.

He did check on me, according to the Armory.

They then issued me one of the Black Plastic abominations. I walked around the armory and turned it back in. I then went over to the KIA barrels at first Med, and put together a Frankengun. I used an E1 receiver and lower, put in an A1 buffer and spring. It worked pretty good for a Matty Mattel. But it was never as reliable as my M14. At that time I knew which manufacturer used chromed chambers and had the chambers in spec in the E1's. I used the newer lighter firing pin and heavier firing pin spring too.

Any way that is my story. Hope that satisfies your curiosity.

Go figure.

Fred

Fatelvis
October 19, 2007, 08:26 AM
Battling battalions of Argies or pretending to stick it to the commies, most would go for eight, plus one in the shooter, and as much as you could carry in your bergan on stripper clips. You'd also want some linked ammo for the gimpies. Fosbery, although I often dont know what you Brits are saying, its fun to listen to you talk! LOL..... P.S., what is a "gimpy"? I assume a MG?

HorseSoldier
October 19, 2007, 09:22 AM
Gimpy --> GPMG --> General Purpose Machinge Gun / MAG-58 (I forget the British L# for it).

Limeyfellow
October 21, 2007, 12:07 AM
impy --> GPMG --> General Purpose Machinge Gun / MAG-58 (I forget the British L# for it).

That would be the L7, L7a1 and L7a2.

Oh and its the L8 when mounted on a vehicle, an L19a1 with a heavier barrel, the L20a1 and a2 when firing from remote control in a gun pod. THe L37a1 and a2 that were an L8 but designed so they could be removed of the vehicle and used by hand, the L43 on the Scorpion and the L44 in the Navy. Basically all the same weapon, but we British like having way too many L designations.

24kshooter
October 22, 2007, 07:52 PM
You are asking about on hand mags - no less than 12. If your are talking a bug out situation keep 4 mags in pouches plus one in the rifle and 60- 80 more rounds in stripper clips.

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