257 Roberts v. 25-06


PDA






razorblade31
September 17, 2007, 04:03 PM
I am looking to get my first centerfire rifle. I have experience with rimfire rifles, shotguns, and centerfire rifles belonging to my brother. I am thinking of getting a Ruger Hawkeye in one of these calibers, and would like recommendations. If you feel a gun other than the Ruger would be better, please make a recommendation about that too.

If you enjoyed reading about "257 Roberts v. 25-06" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
R.W.Dale
September 17, 2007, 04:09 PM
As a handloader I would buy the 257 for nostalgia reasons. but for the non handloader I recommend the 25-06 on the issue of ammo availability alone

rbernie
September 17, 2007, 04:11 PM
The following thread has some interesting perspectives on this question:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=298291

I prefer the 25-06 because it's more potent, can be downloaded if needed, and can be had in virtually any rifle from any manufacturer that pleases you.

George Hill
September 17, 2007, 04:15 PM
Then there is the .257 Weatherby Mag... a Vanguard in that caliber would not be a bad option at all.

Bartkowski
September 17, 2007, 04:19 PM
I would go with the .257 even if I didn't handload. Also I don't need as fast/flat a cartridge as the 25-06 so the .257 is fine. And what will the gun be for?

MCgunner
September 17, 2007, 04:39 PM
I do handload and I am 55 years old, killed my first deer at age 11 with my grandpa's .257 Roberts in an old Remington M722 short action. So, I guess I'm HIGHLY biased. LOL However, you couldn't give me 10 BDLs in .25-06 for my .257. I'll never ever sell it. I had it reblued a while back and refinished the stock. I will eventually put another Weaver scope on it, have a Bushnell on it now. It originally had an old Weaver KV that served for years. Still have the scope, it finally gave out and fogged up. LOL

I actually won a BDL in .25-06 at a gun show, was the door prize. Since I already have a .257, I traded that gun for what I really wanted at the time, a stainless Remington M7 in .308 Winchester. That's my favorite hunting rifle now, has a 2x10 Weaver on it, but the old .257 ain't far behind. I still love that old gun. God only knows how many Texas whitetail have fallen to it and it still shoots 3/4 MOA, can shoot a tick off a deer's butt at 100 yards. I've used that old gun to humiliate a few high dollar guns and scopes in club bench rest shoots in the sporting rifle class they were shooting. It wasn't formal bench rest, but I got a kick out of one old boy in the club that is really into his Klinguther/Schmit and Bender stuff. I thoroughly miffed him off to the point he said nothing, stuck his bazillion dollar rigs in his truck and drove home...ROFLMAO!

I handload two favorites with 4831, one using a 100 grain Sierra Game King (3/4 MOA and my favorite deer load) and a Hornady 117 grain interlock (1 moa and very deep penetrating bullet). I push that 100 grainer to 3150 fps and that Hornady 117 to 3050 fps. I don't think a .25 caliber bullet needs to go any faster'n that and it's light recoiling and deadly accurate. The gun is rather light, 22" barrel, short action (fast) and handles GREAT. Nope, I don't need no stinkin' .25-06. I plan to hopefully hand this one down to MY grandkid in the future.

BTW, not long after I inherited that .257, I also inherited my grandpa's old reloading press. I still use those old Pacific dies and press for this caliber. They'll probably last as long as the gun. The old C press weighs as much as a small car. LOL

razorblade31
September 17, 2007, 04:40 PM
The rifle will probably be used on whitetail, and maybe on black bear, though that is not very likely. I am a college kid, school is in New York, but home is in North Carolina. I have very little in the way of hunting experience (a liitle squirrel and rabbit). I have shot a borrowed weatherby (7mm wby) at the range, and wasn't very fond of the action and the recoil was not pleasant from my rather inexperienced perspective, although it was very accurate.

esmith
September 17, 2007, 04:45 PM
I would say 25-06 however .257 isnt far behind. One the ballistics are slightly better with the 25-06. Shoots faster, more energy, more BC. The higher BC lets you stay open to farther ranges. Theres not much the 25-06 can do that a .257 wont.There is also more ammo in the market. The difference is minimal but its there. Barrel life may not be as good, but if its a hunting rifle it won't be shot nearly as much.

MCgunner
September 17, 2007, 04:51 PM
more BC.

Nope, same bullet selection. Now, if you're sayin' premium bullets are available in .25-06 factory loads and may not be in .257, you may have a point. I haven't bought a factory round in quite a while, but a 100 grain Sierra Game king has the same BC loaded in either case.

Either the .25-06 or the .257 will take deer or black bear just fine with an appropriate load. I'd suggest you look at .257 factory load availability and make your decision. I believe the Ruger 77 is still available in the .257, not sure. But, it's a short action, or at least mine is, and is a more compact, easier to carry gun with very light recoil and quite superior to the .243 IMHO. It REALLY wakes up when you handload it, though. It will push the .25-06 for exterior ballistics, I know this. Factory stuff has always been held to insanely low pressures by SAAMI. There is no reason to load to SAAMI pressures in a Winchester +P case. I got the data I'm using now on the IMR4831 from a good article years ago in American Rifleman. I used to use 4350, but 4831 shoots better in this caliber. It is a compressed load, though.

esmith
September 17, 2007, 04:57 PM
Nope, same bullet selection

Federalcartridge.com says

A 115 gr Nosler Partition 25-06 shot out of a 24" barrel will move .8 " at 100 yrds, 3.2" at 200 yrds, and 7.4" at 300 yrds. This is in a 10 mph crosswind.

A 120 gr Nosler Partition 257 roberts shot out of a 24" barrel will move .9" at 100 yrds, 3.5" at 200 yrds, and 8.3" at 300 yrds. This is in a 10 mph crosswind.

Now a heavier bullet in the 257 roberts moves more than a lighter one in a 25-06. Now unless federal uses different selections of materials for their ammunition which i don't think they do im not sure how this is not better. The difference is slight like i said, but its there. Correct me if i am wrong.

razorblade31
September 17, 2007, 05:09 PM
Source: Nosler
115 grain partition BC:.389
120 grain partition BC:.391

Very small difference, but the BC of the 120 grain is better. The bullet from the 25-06 drifts less because it is moving faster and therefore the wind has less time to push on it over any given distance, and so cannot push it as far.

MCgunner
September 17, 2007, 05:12 PM
Yes, but the 115 out of the .25-06 is moving faster than the 120 out of the 257 at the muzzle. This has nothing to do with BC of the bullets.

The BC of a .257" 100 grain Sierra game king is .388. It doesn't matter if you load that bullet in a .25-06 case or a .25-20 case, the BC doesn't change due to the case. It has to do with bullet shape and sectional density and its drag coefficient.

Also, that drop is from center line of bore? Seems awful low for BOTH calibers. I show a drop from bore of 1.86" at 100 yards with a muzzle velocity of 3147 fps with that 100 grain Sierra. Nosler Partitions are not boat tailed and have lower BCs than Game Kings. I would suspect the 100 game king is a higher BC than the 120 Partition. So, something don't seem to jive, here.

But, check this out, sighted for a 250 yard zero, my 100 grain .257 load is 2.31" high at 100, peaks at 2.71" at 150, and is zero at 250 yards. It's only 3.33" low at 300 yards and 8" low at 350. That, there, is some pretty flat shootin'. At the muzzle, it's puttin' out 2199 ft lbs and still retains 1015 ft lbs at 500 yards. It is packin' enough at my imposed max range of 350 yards to kill any Texas whitetail, 1173 ft lbs. It drops below 1500 ft lbs at 225 yards.

Now, that's my handload. The .257 Roberts is a GREAT short action caliber when handloaded. It's not quite up to that with factory Winchester Silvertips. I thought I'd shot some silvertips over the chronograph when I got it, but I can't find the ballistics sheet and that was over 20 years ago. Lets just say, the .257 is a known entity with me.

esmith
September 17, 2007, 05:13 PM
You are comparing the BC of the bullets. Heavier bullets will move less of course. But im comparing the BCs and drags of the cartridges those rounds are fired from.

razorblade31
September 17, 2007, 05:16 PM
A cartridge doesn't have BC as a whole, because the only part that moves and is affected by the wind, gravity etc is the bullet.

esmith
September 17, 2007, 05:17 PM
A cartridge doesn't have BC as a whole, because the only part that moves and is affected by the wind, gravity etc is the bullet

You know what i meant.

MCgunner
September 17, 2007, 05:21 PM
The BC of any bullet shape/weight is a constant and does not change with the gun it is fired in. It can vary slightly with altitude or air density, but it's a constant. The BCs supplied by bullet makers are average numbers and close enough for gov'ment work when doing exterior ballistics calculations.

You can google "ballistic coefficient" if you want the exact mathematics. I have all the derived formulae here to do exterior ballistics calculations, filed it somewhere, but it's pretty complicated to type in a thread. I wrote a fortran 77 program to run it, then when I got a handy dandy Tandy color 3 computer back in the day, I converted it to BASIC. It's best done with a computer. Now days, you can run the calculations with free software from internet sites or buy ballistics programs from many sources. Not many sit around like I used to running the numbers to find that last 50 yards of effective range, though. LOL It's really not that practical, but it is a good education into how the bullet works when it leaves the barrel if you get into it deep enough. If it didn't interest me, I'd never have wasted time on it. :D

esmith
September 17, 2007, 05:23 PM
The BC of any bullet shape/weight is a constant and does not change with the gun it is fired in. It can vary slightly with altitude or air density, but it's a constant. The BCs supplied by bullet makers are average numbers and close enough for gov'ment work when doing exterior ballistics calculations.

Alright do you want me to say that it moves less from now on?

R.W.Dale
September 17, 2007, 05:28 PM
COME ON GUYS! Talk about overanalization The differences between the two rounds performance is so little as to be meaningless. much less than even the 30-06 vs 308 debates.

I will add that it's a true shame that the 257 Roberts was standardized to fit inside a short action rifle. This round could have been made even better if loaded to cartridge overall lengths similar to it's other x57mm bretherin

MCgunner
September 17, 2007, 05:29 PM
The .257's factory load VELOCITY is lower than the .25-05. This I will grant is true, if that's what you're trying to say. Has nothing to do with the BC of the bullet, though.

esmith
September 17, 2007, 05:30 PM
Its only being debated because im trying to understand this better. I think i got it now. So because the 25-06 factory loads shoot faster they have less time to move off target. I was confused on what was going on.

MCgunner
September 17, 2007, 05:34 PM
COME ON GUYS! Talk about overanalization The differences between the two rounds performance is so little as to be meaningless. much less than even the 30-06 vs 308 debates.

Yeah, I agree..:D

I will add that it's a true shame that the 257 Roberts was standardized to fit inside a short action rifle. This round could have been made even better if loaded to cartridge overall lengths similar to it's other x57mm bretherin

Even with the bullet seated deeper for a short action magazine, with a good powder like 4831, the cartridge can still be loaded to reasonable pressures to almost equal the .25-06. The secret is in the powder density/burn rate. Like I say, my load is a compressed load, but it fits in the little Remington and performs well with no signs of high pressure. Those that play with this caliber get sold on it over such as the big Weatherby and .25-06 and part of it IS the fact that it's chambered in short action, handy rifles.

The same case or similar in 6mm became the 6mm Remington BTW and it's a short action IIRC.

razorblade31
September 17, 2007, 05:36 PM
"The differences between the two rounds performance is so little as to be meaningless"

Maybe for a handloader, which I am not (at least not yet).

Hornady ammo perfomance
257
117 btsp at 2780
117 sst at 2940 lite magnum
25-06
117 btsp at 2990
117 btsp at 3110 lite magnum

thats about 200fps difference

R.W.Dale
September 17, 2007, 05:38 PM
and .257 and part of it IS the fact that it's chambered in short action, handy rifles.

I'm sorry but I never bought into the whole short actions are handier bit. I've never been in a situation where that .25" longer bolt throw even remotely mattered. For genuinely shorter handier rifle I pick up an Encore


thats about 200fps difference

Which in the realm of hunting rifles shooting at critters inside 400yds is UTTERLY meangless

or in other words if you do the math the 257 does 94.53% of what 25-06 does. Again MEANGLESS

woof
September 17, 2007, 05:39 PM
If you are going to hunt deer in the woods of North Carolina neither one of those cartridges is right, IMO. I would have nothing under .30 cal and I'm not talking about power but brush gun usefulness. A .30-30 or even a 7.62x39 is very adequate with especially the latter having very mild recoil. A .308 is probably more than you need. Unless you are going to be taking shots at 300 yards you don't need a .25-06.

Larry Ashcraft
September 17, 2007, 05:41 PM
Matter of personal preference. McGunner's 100 grain load will do 3150 fps, my 25-06 load with a 100 grain Ballistic Tip is an honest 3300 fps.

In a practical situation, skill and familiarity with the rifle will make a MUCH bigger difference than 150 fps will.

My 25-06 that I built on a 1903 Springfield action some 25 years ago is supremely accurate. I can't comment on the .257, since I've never owned one.

MCgunner
September 17, 2007, 05:48 PM
Its only being debated because im trying to understand this better. I think i got it now. So because the 25-06 factory loads shoot faster they have less time to move off target.

EXACTLY. In exterior ballistics speak, it's called time to distance or time of flight of the bullet. It is simply Newtonian physics. D=1/2G x T^2 where G is the gravitational acceleration constant 32 ft/sec squared. If you decrease T (time), then D (distance of the object's fall) is reduced. When you fire the bullet parallel to the ground where gravity is acting 90 degrees to bullet path, think of it as just dropping the bullet from your fingers to the floor. The bullet is falling out of the line of the bore in accordance with Newton's equation. If it gets to the target faster, it has fallen less distance.

BC is a constant and determines how fast the bullet sheds velocity due to aerodynamic drag. So, BC affects the bullets trajectory as well because with a lower BC, the bullet will shed velocity quicker making time of flight to any given distance longer and we all now how that plays with Newton now. But, the BC of a bullet is a set constant. Now, you can compare BCs in .257" bullets to 7mm bullets to 6.5mm bullets to .30 cal bullets and you quickly realize that the BC of 6.5mm and 7mm bullets exceed most other calibers for a given application. So do, not coincidental, the sectional densities, which is a whole nuther topic. But, within a given caliber and a given bullet design, the BC doesn't change. BCs can be higher in a given caliber from one bullet design to another because a bullets shape has a lot to do with BC as does the sectional density. Boat tail bullets in a given weight will tend to have higher BCs than flat base bullets. Spitzer flat base higher than round nose or flat nose.

Anyway, I'm completely done with the thread jack now. :D Again, just depends on what's out there for factory loads if you don't handload, but there is definitely more variety in .25-06 loadings and I'd think you'd have a better chance of finding a premium load like Federal Premium in .25-06 than .257. The Winchester +P silver tips I've fired were 1 MOA accurate, but BCs were pretty poor. They weren't what I'd call premium bullets, though they expanded well. I shot several deer with 'em. I much prefer my handloads, though.

Bartkowski
September 17, 2007, 05:48 PM
If you are shooting across fields and what not then go with the 25-06, just because it will be a little easier to compensate for the drop since there is less of it. If you plan on getting into handloading soon, go with the .257. I wouldn't get to caught up in ballistics of the two, just because the .257 will do what the 25-06 does if you are experienced enough. If you don't mind getting a used gun, look around for them at gun shops and gun shows, and if a gun comes at the right price, your decision will be made. Also the animal you shoot will not know the difference between the two if you are shooting at reasonable ranges.

alucard0822
September 17, 2007, 05:49 PM
some things to concider, 257 tends to do about 3000fps with a 100gr bullet from a short action with 38-45 gr of powder depending on load. 25-06 will do about 3100 fps in a long action with 45-55gr of powder. Similar to the old 308/30-06 argument. IMO the roberts would be more efficient, allowing for a more compact action, but as things go, popularity is on the 25-06 side. I think you might want to take a look at the 260rem though it is a handloaders dream cartridge, good for big varmints to deer, and very accurate, it sits between the 243 and the 7mm-08 in the 308 based scheme of things, not that bad of a barrel burner, and fairly efficient, similar to the 257, but with an increasingly good availability of chamberings and loadings coming out, and much better BC. 100gr hdy sp in 257 has a BC of .357, the 127gr 264/6.5mm has a BC of .460, basically the 260 starts where the 257 leaves off, and is designed for heavier bullets at moderate velocity (2950fps w/ a 120gr) My uncle bought one of these http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_seven/model_seven_CDL.asp
and loves it, it is very accurate, light, and a good deer/predator rifle for the northeast where something has to be used for close shots in the woods, and long shots in fields. He has used a couple different rifles in the past, including both the 257 and 25-06, but seems to like his old 7X57 the best

MCgunner
September 17, 2007, 05:49 PM
I'm sorry but I never bought into the whole short actions are handier bit. I've never been in a situation where that .25" longer bolt throw even remotely mattered. For genuinely shorter handier rifle I pick up an Encore

I like my M7 Stainless Remington, though. But, I can pick up my old 722 and it's BLISS compared to totin' or bangin' around in a stand with my long action Savage in 7 mag with 24" barrel. That little M7 is my fave, though, light, handy, accurate, and powerful in .308.

R.W.Dale
September 17, 2007, 05:52 PM
That's OK I knew what you meant:D I'll edit acoordingly



This is a VERY interesting thread! There are some rooting for the ballistic superiority of the 25-06. There are others cheering for the efficiency of the .257 and then theres me saying that theres no point to arguing as there is no real difference.

What is the meaning of it all and is anything really what it seems

MCgunner
September 17, 2007, 06:01 PM
This is a VERY interesting thread! There are some rooting for the ballistic superiority of the 25-06. There are others cheering for the efficiency of the .257 and then theres me saying that theres no point to arguing as there is no real difference.

Yes, the differences in what they'll kill and how far are nil and by handloading, there's really no difference. That's why I traded that .25-06 off that I won for my .308 M7. What the HECK did I need another .25 caliber gun for, anyway? It was pretty, a BDL, but lord, ain't like they're real scarce out there, LOL! I'd been wanting that .308 M7 stainless since I'd first read about it.:D Not only is my little 722 handier than that BDL, I AIN'T ever gettin' rid of it. It's too accurate, and it's an heirloom. Too many memories are tied to that old gun. Every time I take it deer hunting, it's almost like I can feel my grandpa beside me. It's real erie, but it's a warm feeling.

The old man used to take a lot of poop off the other guys at the deer camp for shootin' a "pop gun". They all toted mostly .30 calibers. He made something short of 250 yard shot on a running deer once. By the time he died, it'd increased to over 500 yards. :D

razorblade31
September 17, 2007, 06:03 PM
200 fps is about the difference between a 280 and a 7mm mag, or a 30-06 and a 300 mag. I would think that is pretty significant.

razorblade31
September 17, 2007, 06:04 PM
200 fps is about the difference between a 280 and a 7mm mag, or a 30-06 and a 300 mag. I would think that is pretty significant.

Bartkowski
September 17, 2007, 06:11 PM
What will a 7mm rem mag do that a .280 won't do? What will a 300 win mag do that a 30-06 won't do. I understand that 200fps is enough to make a difference in terms of bullet drop, energy, penetration and all, but at the end of the day, will a deer that is shot with a .257 roberts do something different than one shot with a 25-06? Go with what you are comfortable with, but don't think that having a .257 makes you limited or worse when compared to the 25-06.

R.W.Dale
September 17, 2007, 06:11 PM
200 fps is about the difference between a 280 and a 7mm mag, or a 30-06 and a 300 mag. I would think that is pretty significant.

But that's the real secret! It isn't a significant difference. Now matter how you slice it 5% isn't very much.

Take my 6.8 SPC encore and compare it to .270 win

6.8SPC handload 130grn Hornady SST 2500 fps

270win handload same bullet 2900 fps

Even the diminutive 6.8 does 86% of what the much larger 270 can do. And is within 3.5" of the 270win at 300yds on a 200yd ZERO.

All this while burning only HALF the powder of the .270

the 200 FPS difference you cite is almost NOTHING. The real advantage to the belted magnums only comes into play when shooting the heaviest of projectiles for that caliber

razorblade31
September 17, 2007, 06:19 PM
a factory 270 load gets 3060fps and about 2700 ft/lbs muzzle energy, that 6.8 spc load gets about 1800 ft/lbs. giving up a third of your energy and about a fifth of your velocity is a much bigger loss than the one between the 25-06 and 257. I bet you still get your deer with it though. Shot placement being more important than the performance difference. that is one reason why I am thinking of these lighter recoiling calibers, so I can shoot better.

alucard0822
September 17, 2007, 06:24 PM
200 fps is about the difference between a 280 and a 7mm mag, or a 30-06 and a 300 mag. I would think that is pretty significant.
Velocity isn't everything, it's just something us ballistics geeks take into concideration. According to the remington ballistics table, a 25-06 firing a 120gr SP core lokt at 2990fps will drop 10.1" at 300yds when zeroed at 150 or 44.1 at 500 when zeroed at 200 while retaining 1825fps. A 260 rem firing a 120gr accutip at 2890 will drop 9.5" at 300 when zeroed at 150, and 41.7" at 500 when zeroed at 200 while retaining 2000fps at 500yds. This is BC in action, the 260s better BC allows it to start with a 100fps lower MV, and after 500yds it retains 175fps more than the 25-06, that would require a 275fps advantage (more powder burned/barrel erosion, case size) while using bullets with identical weight. To gain a little velocity in rifles already pushing 3000fps, either lighter bullets must be used (poor BC, less penetration) or more powder (recoil, barrel erosion, cost) the largest advantage to a 300mag over a 30-06 is the fact it can fire a heavier bullet, with a higher BC at the same velocity as a 30-06, in a lot of ways velocity hinders accuracy and consistency, and heavier bullets are definitely more desireable where terminal ballistics are involved, this if anyhting is the 25-06 true strength compared to the 257, not 200fps more, which is fairly insignifigant, but that it can fire a 120gr bullet at nearly the velocity that the Roberts can fire a 100gr at, this is where it pays to be a handloader, but where 120gr is about the heaviest .257 bullets available, .264/6.5mm are available from 95gr up to 160gr. An efficient high BC cartridge and bullet, at moderate velocities puts it's energy far down range, not into your shoulder, wallet, or ears. Basically think of it in terms of newton's law, the whole action reaction thing, the same ammount of force goes into the bolt face as the bullet, after all is said and done, the better a bullet can preserve it's energy untill it releases it upon impact, the less energy is needed to achieve the same results, and the less the force into your shoulder, but more energy is recieved by the target by reducing the waste of muzzle blast, and aerodynamic drag/wind drift

Clipper
September 17, 2007, 06:37 PM
OK, so I'll toss my .02 in. My first centerfire shooting was with my dad's 722 in .257. That rifle will shoot cloverleafs at 100 yards with Remington core lockt 117gr. He had it sighted in to shoot 2" high at 100, so he could hold point-blank to 225 I think. I bought some Federal 120+P for it and it shot 3" high, same windage, same group size. It has always been a pleasant rifle to shoot, soft recoiling and soft report. You can shoot it all day in comfort. Now I recently sold my Winchester M-70 Featherweight in 25WSSM. And while it's not a 25/06, it's a ballistic twin. Weight with the bigger scope was about the same as the Roberts, but although it wasn't a big kicker, it wasn't as mild as the Roberts, and made WAY more noise. I sold it because I was spoiled for the Roberts, and just wasn't happy with it.

MCgunner
September 17, 2007, 07:21 PM
If you are going to hunt deer in the woods of North Carolina neither one of those cartridges is right, IMO. I would have nothing under .30 cal and I'm not talking about power but brush gun usefulness.

An old myth that will never die, the "brush gun" that will "buck the brush".

I'd rather shoot my .257 in the brush than your run of the mill lever gun because I know I can put that bullet between the twigs right where it needs to go. It's that accurate. There is no bullet, not even a 400 grain .45-70, that can "plow through brush" without going WAY off course from the instability. I've seen tests done and it's a fact, there is no caliber that "bucks the brush" better than another. And, the .257 packs more energy on target at ANY range than the .30-30. I don't even know how many mine's killed. Over about 25 years I hunted exclusively with it, I can count a couple dozen, maybe. My grandpa was using it well before me. I never had a deer go more'n 10 feet except for one and that one was hit in the ribs with that Hornady bullet and it failed to expand. He expired about 40 yards from where I hit him. That's why I don't use that 117 grain interlock anymore. I might switch back to it on mulies if I used the gun for mulies, but Texas whitetail ain't mulies. That 100 grain Game King takes no prisoners. :D

Benton
September 17, 2007, 08:07 PM
The Ruger .257 Roberts rifles are built on long actions. I'd have preferred it on a short action, but I know others say the long action is useful for seating the bullets out farther when that is desired by the handloaders. It seems to me there would be adequate room to work with most reasonable seating depths in a short action, but I'd like to hear from someone with experience with the Roberts in the Ruger.

It really is a great cartridge that will do all that is needed on whitetails at the ranges most encountered east of the Mississippi (<300yards). The muzzle blast, recoil, and noise of larger cartridges don't yield significant benefits that I see in this region's whitetails. Use enough gun, but not too much.

rbernie
September 17, 2007, 10:31 PM
6.8SPC handload 130grn Hornady SST 2500 fps

270win handload same bullet 2900 fpsThat's a mightly slow-poke 270 load and a significantly steamy 6.8SPC. You should be getting 3000fps or better out of that 270 bullet/chambering, and most folks are pretty darn happy with 2300fps-2400fps out of a 6.8SPC 130gr ANYTHING.

Will a deer that is shot with a .257 roberts do something different than one shot with a 25-06? Not inside of 200 yards, say, or under 200lbs. But if you're hunting itty bitty black buck that you're lucky to stalk within 350 yards and which have a small kill zone, or find a really nice mulie 300 yards out - you might be glad that you have a little extra horsepower in the boiler room.

Again - you can always download a 25-06 to duplicate the 'efficiency' and power of a 257 Roberts. You can't upload a 257 Roberts to 25-06 performance levels.

You make the call.

R.W.Dale
September 17, 2007, 10:39 PM
most folks are pretty darn happy with 2300fps-2400fps out of a 6.8SPC 130gr ANYTHING.

Unlike me they're not shooting from a 26" barrel with cartriges loaded to 2.60" :D

Bwana John
September 18, 2007, 11:04 AM
The BC of any bullet shape/weight is a constant and does not change with the gun it is fired in. It can vary slightly with altitude or air density, but it's a constantBC is a constant
Umm.... I believe that the balistic coefficent of a projectile does change with velocity. Not enough to worry about, but it is not a constant.

I vote 257:cool:

MCgunner
September 18, 2007, 11:40 AM
BC varies slightly with a lot of factors, but the constant given by the bullet companies for their bullets is a good average and when used in calculations is constant and the same number is used for all calibers. Theory aside, for practical purposes, the Sierra 100 grain Game King in .257 has a .388 BC. That number is used whether calculating .25-20 or .257 Weatherby ballistic tables.

I've said it before, rifle calibers continued to be re-invented. It's a marketing thing. For instance, what's wrong with the good old .308 Winchester that we need an all new short action cartridge that does the same exact thing? Yet, TC and Hornady have re-invented the wheel and come out with a new cartridge that does just that in the new TC bolt gun, read about it in American Rifleman. Whadda joke! It's all been done before. Very few new cartridges do anything that can't be done with an older cartridge, but marketing favors the latest and greatest. In 1970, when Remington legitimized the .25-06, you just HAD to have it. I mean, it was a light recoil, long range caliber capable of deer hunting, right? Not like that hadn't been done before, but you just have to have this caliber and, of course, as with that American Rifleman article, the gun writers talk it up and it sells guns and new dies and ammo and yadda, yadda.

Browning used to chamber (don't know if they still do, doubt it) the BLR in .257 Roberts and I always thought that'd be a neat gun/caliber combination in Texas. Of course, same gun is chambered in .308, even magnum calibers now days with a long action version of the gun. But, I'm a sucker for the Roberts. :D

aspade
September 18, 2007, 01:06 PM
Sierra lists the G1 BC of their 100 grain, 0.257 Gameking as:

.355 @ 2800 fps and above
.333 between 2800 and 1600 fps
.310 @ 1600 fps and below

So it isn't the same in a 25-20 as in a 257 Weatherby. It isn't even the same in the same cartridge out of the same rifle when comparing a 150 yard shot (where the average would be around 0.36) as a 300 yard shot (where the average would be around 0.34.)

MCgunner
September 18, 2007, 01:17 PM
Well, 25 years ago I called and asked the "bulletsmith" and got .388 for an answer. It's on my sheet as .388 and shooting out to 300 yards with the gun, that's pretty danged close looking at the drop tables I calculated. Don't mean they haven't changed the bullet in those years. I'm shooting it at 3150 fps. You can get a little more out of a .25-06, but not MUCH more.

If you are that anal about it, you can actually test in the field and calculate the BC of any bullet reasonably accurately.

aspade
September 18, 2007, 07:17 PM
At 300 yards, and your 3150fps MV, the difference in total drop of a .388 BC against 0.355 is about 1/3 of an inch. 0.333 will drop you another 1/4".

Clearly not to matter a whit at hunting distances.

MCgunner
September 18, 2007, 09:14 PM
At 300 yards, and your 3150fps MV, the difference in total drop of a .388 BC against 0.355 is about 1/3 of an inch. 0.333 will drop you another 1/4".

Clearly not to matter a whit at hunting distances.

And, for all practical purposes, undetectable on paper. Someone else said it, the deer ain't gonna know if a .257 or a .25-06 hit him. Ballistics should be a secondary concern to ammo availability (if you don't handload) and the gun it's available in.

Bartkowski
September 18, 2007, 09:37 PM
Quote:
Will a deer that is shot with a .257 roberts do something different than one shot with a 25-06?

Not inside of 200 yards, say, or under 200lbs. But if you're hunting itty bitty black buck that you're lucky to stalk within 350 yards and which have a small kill zone, or find a really nice mulie 300 yards out - you might be glad that you have a little extra horsepower in the boiler room.


I was saying that as a question not needing an answer, because I personally don't think that at reasonable ranges there is much difference.

Essex County
September 19, 2007, 11:18 AM
I split the diffrence between the two. I love my .257 Ackley.....Essex

jaholder1971
September 19, 2007, 12:32 PM
This is literally like comparing .308 to.30/06, sheesh!

Remember this is a guy who's new to centerfire rifles. I'm leaning toward .257 Roberts for lighter recoil yet is still incredibly effective on deer. Factory ammo is still pretty easy to find around here anyway.

Besides, at 300 yards there is about 2-3 inches difference between the 2 cartridges in drop and wind drift and 300 foot/lbs in energy. The deer isn't going to notice the difference at the processor!

MCgunner
September 19, 2007, 12:47 PM
I split the diffrence between the two. I love my .257 Ackley.....Essex

I'd thought about the Ackley for a long time. I have it somewhere, i guess, inherited a PO Ackley reloading manual with my grandpa's press. But, with 4831, that gun shoots 3150 fps and is 3/4 MOA accurate with the 100 grain game king. I don't think it's worth fixing what ain't broke. LOL And, I might just mess it up having it reamed.

RJChapman
September 19, 2007, 01:30 PM
The .257 Roberts is on my wish list. I've never owned one. Never shot one. Have know folks who did and all liked it. I plan to be one of them. Call it nostalgia.:neener:

The .257 Roberts is a once popular cartridge that has been fading into obscurity; much like the .45-70, .41 Mag and others were before they had a resurge in popularity.:D

Buy the .257 Roberts and help keep the cartridge alive! Game doesn't care what you shoot it with and the differences in one cartridge from another similiar cartridge are usally only worth quibbling about when you are on a quest for perfection.:banghead:

.257 Roberts will get the job done.:cool:

one-shot-one
September 19, 2007, 02:58 PM
deer and black bear will not be able to tell the difference between the two inside of 300 yards and paper probably wont either. if you have access to ammo for it the .257 will kick less out of the same modle/weight rifle.
like said above .308/.30-06 debate for .25 cal. get what you want, if the rifle you are looking at has wood stock maybe pick the one with the prettiest wood.:D

kmrcstintn
September 21, 2007, 11:52 AM
got a Savage 111G in .25-06 as a 'not so varminter varminting' rifle to get started with; original plan was to handload Hornady 75 gr V-Max to @3200-3400 fps for use out to 300 yds on woodchucks; the thing loves to place Remington 100 gr CoreLokt at 1/2" to 3/4" at 100 yds...might be a consideration for deer this year and start blasting pests next spring

If you enjoyed reading about "257 Roberts v. 25-06" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!