If mini 14s are inaccurate why does law inforcement use them?


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SturmMackRuger
September 17, 2007, 10:39 PM
I was reading an article about the mini 14 and the author was a policeman and he said that their police department would rather have a stainless synthetic mini 14 over a government issue ar-15 or M16.

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W.E.G.
September 17, 2007, 10:43 PM
They are very good for what "law enforcement" uses them for.

Inexpensive, easy to maintain, easy to operate, and accurate enough to shoot minute-of-man at 50 yards or less.

Gator
September 17, 2007, 10:43 PM
Most cops can't shoot anyway, so it really doesn't matter. :neener:

trueblue1776
September 17, 2007, 10:49 PM
They retooled two years ago, they are much better now.

Not quite as accurate as a high quality AR, but better than an AK. More than enough for an average marksman IMO.

When they first retooled the Ruger rep did a demo on the outdoors channel, he shot between 1" and 2" with the new gun, around 3"-4" with the old one, a HUGE improvement.

I'm not a huge fan of the company, and their politics, but it still a good rifle.

Jeff White
September 17, 2007, 10:55 PM
If mini 14s are inaccurate why does law inforcement use them?

Because they are cheaper then the competition and decisions about things like that are more often made by beancounters then shooters.

Jeff

CajunTim
September 17, 2007, 10:55 PM
Its the government and they dont make much sense most of the time.

SturmMackRuger
September 17, 2007, 11:05 PM
Because they are cheaper then the competition and decisions about things like that are more often made by beancounters then shooters.

Jeff


Actually the author said that a government ar or m16 was alot cheaper to obtain than the mini 14.

The Deer Hunter
September 17, 2007, 11:09 PM
Maybe so they aren't all scary lookin' and such?

Geronimo45
September 17, 2007, 11:10 PM
They're cheaper... but so are AKs...
Part of it is appearances. ARs are scarier than Minis. Minis are 'wooden rifles'. Therefore, they don't jump up and start murdering people, unlike those nasty ARs and AKs.
I'm guessing that the classic image of terrorists with AK-47s would lend towards negative press with AKs (stormtrooper cops murdering everyone they can find, etc).

I do know that Mas Ayoob seems to think well of Minis. The 'lack of accuracy' isn't so major in the comparatively short distances where firefights take place in the US, I guess.

Sir Aardvark
September 17, 2007, 11:11 PM
Law enforcement gets them incredibly cheap!

You can outfit more officers with less money by buying Rugers - and anyways they do work well enough for what is required of them.

Same with Ford Crown Vic's - cops get them cheap; last I heard a Crown Vic cruiser cost about $10,500.00, nevermind the fact that they blow-up when they get rear-ended, when you have limited resources you do the best you can with what is available to you.

Same with Glocks... they are cheap! (and reliable).

trueblue1776
September 17, 2007, 11:11 PM
It's much more mundane in appearance than an AR-15, there are a few PD's who don't want to be Spec. Op. (I think) :neener:

Jeff White
September 17, 2007, 11:14 PM
Actually the author said that a government ar or m16 was alot cheaper to obtain than the mini 14.

Yes you can get M16A1s from DOD on the 1033 program. However, they are limited, the last time I did the paperwork, they were only providing them to a certain percentage of the sworn officers. IIRC it was 10%.

So yes, when you can get M16A1s for free, Mini 14s do cost more. However the chances of getting enough to equip your department in a reasonable amount of time is zero. It took 9 months for the last one my old department got.

If you are faced with buying weapons, the Mini is cheaper.

Jeff

SturmMackRuger
September 17, 2007, 11:15 PM
Geronimo45- Mas Ayoob was the author of the article it was in Special Weapons for military and police. That article made me want to go out and buy one just like the one in the article.

Frog48
September 17, 2007, 11:15 PM
Does it really matter? A patrol officer isnt going to have the chance to say "Excuse me Mr. Badguy, please wait here a moment while I go get my rifle."

alucard0822
September 17, 2007, 11:17 PM
6" at 100yds is plenty accurate enough for policework, even the old minis could shoot better than that. Almost all police "sniper" shots are taken from within 200yds, and most within 100yds. The minis are cheaper, easier to care for, and don't look quite as "evil" as AR pattern rifles. Just think if you were going to outfit a depatment with rifles that would be constantly abused, but only used occasionally. 14.5" or 16" M4 pattern rifles run $1200, minis run about half the cost, and the conventional stock fits in the trunk rack better.

last I heard a Crown Vic cruiser cost about $10,500.00, nevermind the fact that they blow-up when they get rear-ended

pray tell where this came from, The crown vics make a fantastic cruiser, powerful, durable and cheap, definitely no pinto. Most of the old timers preferred their caprice's, went kicking and screaming into the 2 intrepids the B-more TA had, but they all fought for the Z-28 camaro. (I used to repair/service vehicles that overflowed from the state shops, and worked on the "specialty" vehicles)

armoredman
September 17, 2007, 11:17 PM
We had Minis, but switched to ARs, actual Colts - still haven't gotten an answer to why. I know we use Grock because they prctically give them away to LE.

Deaf Smith
September 17, 2007, 11:20 PM
The thing is, like the AK the Mini-14 does not need much maintenance. It's a simple short range carbine.

The AR is more if a 'experts' gun. It requires more knowledge and maintenance BUT if one knows the weapon it is miles ahead of the AK or Mini-14 (and I say that cause I own the AR, AK, and Mini-14! I fact I've owned several.)

For a local police department the Mini-14 will do fine. 100 yard shots are rally rare but the Mini can handle such.

The AR, when properly set up, is a wonderful machine. Capable of hits way way out. But, like I said, it takes someone with more than just a bit of knowledge about the weapon and how to keep it running.

Oh, and I do prefer the AR, if you know what you are doing and can shoot.

Frog48
September 17, 2007, 11:25 PM
Almost all police "sniper" shots are taken from within 200yds, and most within 100yds.

A while back, I read an article that compiled info regarding "sniper" usage by law enforcement, and the average shot was approx 50 yards. Most were well within 50 yards, with only a handful of really long range shots skewing the mean.

NC-Mike
September 17, 2007, 11:45 PM
Never mention sniper and mini-14 in the same sentence.

Those two words don't even belong on the same page. :rolleyes:

trueblue1776
September 17, 2007, 11:48 PM
Never mention sniper and mini-14 in the same sentence.

Accuracy systems made their name on tuning minis.

http://www.accuracysystemsinc.com/index.php

R.W.Dale
September 17, 2007, 11:52 PM
This is the same government that paid $640 for a toilet seat in the 80's

atblis
September 17, 2007, 11:56 PM
They do? I've never seen the cops around here with them.

GunTech
September 18, 2007, 12:45 AM
Interesting reading on police snipers:

http://americansniper.org/new_page_12.htm

"What is the average distance of a police sniper shooting in the United States? When most people in the tactical community are asked this question, the answers tend to be in the range of 70 -77 yards. When asked about the source of their information, almost all allude to "the FBI statistics." Would it come as a shock to you to hear this is a myth?

The American Sniper Association tried to obtain a copy of that report to study and evaluate. We checked a variety of resources and followed referrals to people who would have the report. Much to our surprise, we discovered the report does not exist. According to the FBI, they do not, nor have they ever, collected that kind of data.

For thirty years, that "70 something" number has been reported as fact. Schools, manuals and articles refer to it to this very day. It has been used as the justification for training, equipping and deploying snipers for decades. The foundation for all of those beliefs and practices does not exist."

GunTech
September 18, 2007, 12:48 AM
Accuracy systems made their name on tuning minis.


Almost $800 buck for the sub MOA conversion, plus the cost of the rifle. Hard to get excited about that.

Coronach
September 18, 2007, 01:01 AM
Does it really matter? A patrol officer isnt going to have the chance to say "Excuse me Mr. Badguy, please wait here a moment while I go get my rifle."I don't think you really understand how LE operates. Response to immediate, unexpected threats is only a part of the job. Many times you know in advance that a rifle will be required (shots fired runs, shootings, etc). Cops have carried shotguns for how many years now? Pretty sure it's triple digits. The patrol rifle is supplanting the shotgun in that role for a number of reasons.

And I've never seen a cop around here using a Mini-14. M14? Yes. M16? Yes. Ruger mini? Nope.

Mike

Coronach
September 18, 2007, 01:02 AM
Doubletap

Neo-Luddite
September 18, 2007, 01:22 AM
Not to go car -- but I take grave offense.

The Ford Crown Victoria is a seriously hard-charging, durable auto--one that is VERY safe in a crash. It is tougher than ANYTHING that GM or Chrysler makes to compete with it in 2007. It *IS* the last of it's kind--a full-framed v-8 American Sedan. Nothing bests it except a full size Pick-up or SUV for safety, durability, and power.

Drive what you like pal--if GM hadn't gone soft and mushy we might have a Caprice-but not some little unibody toy-car. MY kids like riding in a vic.
And when I drive my wife's, I feel like a G-D damned Mensch and not some little nancy boy!!!

And you bet, it's a bargin to buy one compared to what they want for a similarly equipped SUV--it only REAL peer anymore. 20K buys one on a good day---would you rather have that or some *&^%$# KIA???

Titan6
September 18, 2007, 01:24 AM
They use pistols too and those are pretty inaccuarate (at least when I shoot them they are).

MD_Willington
September 18, 2007, 01:27 AM
I have pictures of an LTD that aren't very flattering, ford front ends are weak... even after we weld them...

66912
September 18, 2007, 01:29 AM
I was always under the impression that mini's were used more as a prison security rifle than as an actual patrolmans rifle. I can see where it would fill both roles, As long as Ruger continues to make factory high capacity magazines for it.

Neo-Luddite
September 18, 2007, 01:32 AM
And yeh--Ruger marketed the mini's to cops YEARS AGO in the early 70's----in fact they were a LEO only item at first until 1974. It banked on police familiarity with the m-14/ m-1 carbine action--and the HUGE ammo surplus from the Vietman contract overruns.

The marketing was that cops could work the gun, at that the new caliber was a great boon as cheap ammo might be there--and that 5.56 was suited to their role better than .30 carbine or .308-----might be very much true.



And now, many years later, more young cops are familiar with the AR type action than the M-1 type. That's probably the most of it. The mini is, on the whole, a perfectly fine patrol carbine in an urban setting.

Neo-Luddite
September 18, 2007, 01:38 AM
The Caprice was tougher than the Vic---no doubt. Chevy left the table. Our Vic is at 170K and hasn't asked anythig but oil, brakes and tires--and it will still hit 120 mph+. I've never liked a ford as much as my wife's.

And if I'm worried, I put a Ruger in the trunk.

ArmedBear
September 18, 2007, 01:43 AM
I have a stainless/synthetic Mini-14 sitting right next to an AR-15 right now, as I speak.

I can certainly see why a cop might want the more compact, lighter, more rust-resistant, lower-maintenance little carbine in the car, instead of the much higher profile AR. AR's I've seen often look shoehorned into cop cars, since they are anything but sleek and compact. I'm not sure how they get them out, especially fast.

The AR is a lot of fun to shoot, and accurate enough to make paper punching entertaining. I only shoot the Mini-14 at outdoor reactive targets, any more. However, you don't need MOA to hit a human threat at close to moderate range. My Mini has been very reliable. Not picky about anything, not cleaning, not lube, not ammo, not even a broken part in the action. No FTF ever.

I don't know what I'd want. The AR is appealing for various reasons. But I can see why someone would prefer the stainless/synthetic Mini for that application.

Samuraigg
September 18, 2007, 02:09 AM
I'd love to have someone on this forum buy a Mini 14 target and post a range report. I really want to see how much they are improved.

ECVMatt
September 18, 2007, 02:15 AM
That is why I love my AR. I can see why folks look down on the mini, because it will not shoot like an AR w/o lots of money invested. However my mini tends to work when my AR doesn't. Ammo that is not perfect will feed like a champ in my mini, but will make my AR jam up. The mini is also easier for folks to use. Most of my non shooting buddies can figure out my mini in a few minutes, buy my AR tends to confuse them.

I think cops like the mini because it is simple, light, trouble free, and more than accurate for the job. The new 580's are even more so. My 580 is a real shooter.

I still see the mini riding shotgun in cop cars around here, but more and more the AR is showing up.

Matt

PS Samuraigg: you can go to perfectunion.com to find many post about the new 580. I think there are some on the target model as well.

Here you go: http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=59264

RonE
September 18, 2007, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by W.E.G. "They are very good for what "law enforcement" uses them for.

Inexpensive, easy to maintain, easy to operate, and accurate enough to shoot minute-of-man at 50 yards or less."

AND (drum roll please) Rugar had a great advertising/sales/marketing program.

trueblue1776
September 18, 2007, 11:30 AM
Rugar had a great advertising/sales/marketing program.

Is it as good as Ruger's?




:D

Rexster
September 18, 2007, 12:14 PM
Well, Gluncks are less accurate than SIGs, but more agencies seem to use Gluncks than SIGs. ($) I am free to use the Glock G22 or G23, or the SIG P226 or P229, and vote with my wallet, as we buy our own. I use a P229R DAK. I tried the Glunck G22 for two years, and never learned to like it; I was very glad when the DAK SIG became acceptable to the admins. After 9-11-01, my agency reluctantly decided to allow a lucky few of us to carry patrol carbines, and authorized the AR15 and Mini-14. Yep, we buy our own rifles, too. I took the 4-day certification course with a hastily purchased Colt AR15A2 Govt Carbine, but not having grown up playing fantasy gunfight video games, did not find the saw-handled AR15 skinny-barrel carbine very ergonomic or easy to shoot well. I ended up selling my carbine to a fellow officer, who wanted the skinny-barrel version. Now, I am looking at 20" HBAR and A2 AR15 rifles, but before I buy one of those, I am going to be evaluating my brand spankin' new MINI-14 GB. It is already showing itself to be much handier, easier to point, and quicker to deploy. The safety is much more ergonomic for this lefty. (Yes, I know about those ambi safety gadgets for the AR15.) We will see about the accuracy part soon.

ArmedBear
September 18, 2007, 12:26 PM
much handier, easier to point, and quicker to deploy

As I've posted before, I've shot at and hit several hand-thrown clay pigeons in the air, in a row, with the Mini-14 (in a place in the desert with a steep mountain slope as a backstop, before anyone scolds me about basic firearms safety).

I also like the Garand safety on the Mini, rather than reaching for the AR safety.

Now the 20" HBAR is more fun at a formal target range. It's addictive, even. And the Mini Target has a huge drawback. For the same price, you can get an AR and change out every part whenever you want. Fluted stainless bull barrel? Check. Free-floated handguard? Check. Match triggers from a list of vendors? Check. Don't like any of the above? Get a different one! Replacement parts from a huge list of vendors? Check. The AR is so upgradeable, it makes a great platform for the perfectionist who is mechanically inclined, but who doesn't have a full gunsmithing shop of his own.

However, not much of that matters much for patrol rifle use.

AndyC
September 18, 2007, 12:53 PM
Bean-counters watch the A-Team too, y'know ;)

atblis
September 18, 2007, 01:09 PM
EDIT: I am referring to the original post. Quote added for clarification.

I was reading an article about the mini 14 and the author was a policeman and he said that their police department would rather have a stainless synthetic mini 14 over a government issue ar-15 or M16.

He probably said that because he figured being synthetic and stainless he'd never have to do any maintenance work on it. More time to eat donuts.

Rexster
September 18, 2007, 01:14 PM
atblis, not sure to whom your post is referring, but I have not had a donut in years, and still wear pants with 31" waist size, same as 24 years ago.

ArmedBear
September 18, 2007, 01:14 PM
atblis- Next time you work a few 12 hour shifts in a row, and have a rifle in a dusty patrol car, a rifle that you seldom ever use, but absolutely NEED to work when you do grab it, atblis, maybe you can spout off about donuts.

I'm not a cop, and I've never been a cop. I just think that was totally uncalled-for.

Furthermore, a patrol rifle should be a tool, not a hobby.

El Tejon
September 18, 2007, 01:22 PM
Does anyone know if any departments use the Mini-14 currently? I know the Battle Ground, Indiana PD does but they are only 4 guys. I know because I sold the Chief my Smith & Wesson 3000 shotguns.:D

Baron357
September 18, 2007, 01:56 PM
Furthermore, a patrol rifle should be a tool, not a hobby.

This I don't agree with, everyone cop or civilian who carries a gun or has a gun at the ready should turn shooting into a hobby. This is not insult but far too many cops have little to no interest in firearms and qualifying one a year does not create proficient and safe firearms handling. They should be practicing until they know every little thing about their guns, at least once a month at a minimum.

ArmedBear
September 18, 2007, 02:00 PM
Once a month practice is not a hobby.

I'm talking about having to strip and clean the thing all the time in a dusty environment. A hobbyist or a Marine has no problem with this, but a cop needs a gun that can sit in the car for a while, and work when it has to. His/her job involves a lot more than firearms maintenance.

Rexster
September 18, 2007, 02:03 PM
I think Texas DPS (Highway Patrol) still uses the Mini, though they are transitioning to the AR15. They do have a long history with the Mini-14.

lee n. field
September 18, 2007, 02:23 PM
If mini 14s are inaccurate why does law inforcement use them?

Because technical adequacy is only one of the reasons something gets bought, especially by government.

Baron357
September 18, 2007, 02:24 PM
Once a month practice is not a hobby.

Your right, it is the absolute minimum amount of time any armed person should spend with their firearms especially cops who will have a much greater risk of using them then the average person.

If not a hobby then it should at least be a larger part of their life.

trueblue1776
September 18, 2007, 02:32 PM
Your right, it is the absolute minimum amount of time any armed person should spend with their firearms especially cops who will have a much greater risk of using them then the avenger person.

hmmm, there are quite a few fine agencies that are currently at 1/12th of your minimum. :scrutiny:

Perhaps the sensitivity training on minorities, women, Muslims, rape, suicide, domestic abuse, child abuse, stress prevention, etc. is cutting into range time. ;)

ArmedBear
September 18, 2007, 02:33 PM
lee n. field, AFAIK 4 MOA is the standard for military rifles. Most beat it, but 4 MOA is considered good enough for a Marine to carry into battle.

The Mini-14 is certainly "adequate" for a patrol rifle, WRT accuracy. "Sniper" is a SWAT role. As a target shooter, you might not like a gun that's not MOA accurate, but that's got nothing to do with "technically adequate."

kBob
September 18, 2007, 02:50 PM
On LEOs and Mini's:

About two years back I was discussing with a local deputy about his service on the Sheriff's "Rifle Team" These were not competitors but sort of a less than SWAT team. Appearently these guys secure the perimiter for the SWAT Team when it is to be used or back up other officers serving a warrent. At that time the detail was issued Mini-14 carbines. THe deputy was excited about the fact that they were supposed to be going to the AR 15. I discussed the fact that the AR TENDED to be mor accurate under the same conditions, but commented on the need for more and more difficult cleaning.

The Deputy announced that the Mini-14 was terribly hard to clean and, wait for it, The ARs need less cleaning and are easier to clean.

I tried to explain that neither was true but soon gave up for he had taken the party line hook line and sinker. Wonder if he still feels that way.

A couple of the Gun Magazines meantioned some time ago that after Waco and Ruby Ridge the FBI got serieous about reseaching long range police shootings.....and they found after those events, no, nada, zip Law Enforcement shootings from beyond 73 meters from any system from a fixed sighted .38 Special revovler to the most expensive and accurate "sniper rife."

That may have changed in the two or three years since that report, but I think it says something that for five or six years this was te greatest range police shot to serve and protect.

Just as some like to remind us that civilians would have a hard time justifying a shot at a human at such ranges, so will officer friendly. Too much can go wrong when shooting that far in an urban area.

I am more interested in how the LEOs are trained in Carbine use and the availabilty of training ammo and training areas than which carbine they purchase. Take two LEOs with little to no long gun experience and give one and AR15 and put him through some sort of garden variety shooting course shooting 60 to 120 rounds for both training and qualification in the first year and then give him 60 rounds a year for training and retrain himevery five to ten years. Take another and give him a Mini-14 and let him take one of the many gun school type three to five day carbine courses out there with 300 to 500 rounds in training and qaulification and the same lousy continuing education and training ammo.

Would you rather have the Mini or the AR in those conditions?

How many days of training does your state, county or city pay for? Cop is not on street if he is on the range or classroom. Will a more expensive rifle make a difference in how well someone depending on the government for their training and practice ammo performs?

How much time will your local agency pay for the LEOs to perform carbine maintenance?

Guess what? Appearences DO make a difference. If you show 90 percent of the citizenry a guy with a stock wood stocked Mini-14 and another with even a plainjane AR-15 (even yea olde SP-1) which will the citizens feel less threatend by. That is more likely to support council men and state legislatures in giving more money going to their departments. WHich officer will more people think approachable at a later date.

Police agencies choose whatever the folks with the purse strings approve in the long run.

A civilian may buy whatever blows their skirts up. Police are often restricted in what they may provide themselves either by department policy or by their low income.

-Bob Hollingsworth

wdlsguy
September 18, 2007, 06:10 PM
The Deputy announced that the Mini-14 was terribly hard to clean
I don't know about terribly hard, but the disassembly procedure (http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/PDF/InstructionManuals/24.pdf) does require tools.

ArmedBear
September 18, 2007, 06:17 PM
What tools?

Am I doing something wrong?

I guess some random object (can be a can opener) to pop the trigger guard is a tool. I always carry a little Swiss Army Knife. If I can use that, I don't really consider anything to "require a tool."

The AR is a neat system. However, it takes two people to remove my handguards. No tools, though.:)

I wouldn't say either gun is too hard to clean, especially for a semiauto.

plexreticle
September 18, 2007, 06:20 PM
Back in the day the minis were about 1/2 the price of an AR. Many PDs are changing over to the AR platform since they are more affordable.

Dr. Peter Venkman
September 18, 2007, 06:30 PM
If there's a problem with an AR-15 fitting into the cruiser, why not just get an M4?

AZ Jeff
September 18, 2007, 06:36 PM
I don't know about terribly hard, but the disassembly procedure does require tools.


"wdlsguy", I have to ask: have you actually ever personally disassembled a Mini-14 for it's recommended field strip and cleaning? Or are you just going on what it says in Ruger's owner's manual?

I ask becuase, once you have gone through the steps on a Mini-14, you will find the "tools" needed are hardly sophisticated, and certainly do not approach even the level of basic hand tools (screwdrivers, punches, hammers, etc.)

A section of steel cleaning rod would constitute a good "tool" for disassembling a Mini-14 in a pinch. I personally use an old rasty small screwdriver that no longer can drive any screws due to it's chewed up blade.

wdlsguy
September 18, 2007, 06:43 PM
have you actually ever personally disassembled a Mini-14 for it's recommended field strip and cleaning?
Just did it last weekend. How do you remove the bolt lock cover plate without a tool of some sort?

ArmedBear
September 18, 2007, 06:52 PM
Any bit of metal or hard plastic will do, as will spent brass. But that is a "tool", I suppose.

AZ Jeff
September 18, 2007, 06:52 PM
How do you remove the bolt lock cover plate without a tool of some sort?

That's not part of the normal field strip, as recommended by Ruger.

If you need to do that, however, the mouth of a spent cartridge case can be used as a punch, and the operating rod can be used as a hammer to tap the plate out of it's grooves in the receiver.

Beagle-zebub
September 18, 2007, 07:16 PM
Why would you waste an accurate rifle by giving it to a big-city cop? :p

wdlsguy
September 18, 2007, 07:19 PM
I like to give the bolt a thorough cleaning, but that's just me.

The Ruger manual says the bolt can be removed from the receiver with the ejector / bolt stop in place, but the bolt can't be installed with the ejector / bolt stop in place. :scrutiny:

If this is a true statement, I pretty much need to remove the ejector / bolt stop. Sorry for the hijack.

alucard0822
September 18, 2007, 07:38 PM
If there's a problem with an AR-15 fitting into the cruiser, why not just get an M4
it's not the length, as a full 20" AR is shorter than most of the shotguns, but the height of the action, and the pistol grip, there is a mount for the ARs available, but it won't hold an 870, the minis fit in the 870 racks without a mag, and the rack usually have pockets to hold boxes of 12ga shells, the 20rd mini mags fit in these, 30rd "standard" AR mags don't.

AZ Jeff
September 18, 2007, 07:39 PM
The Ruger manual says the bolt can be removed from the receiver with the ejector / bolt stop in place, but the bolt can't be installed with the ejector / bolt stop in place.

If this is a true statement, I pretty much need to remove the ejector / bolt stop. Sorry for the hijack.

AHhhhhhh. You have a Mini-14 "Ranch Rifle', not a plain Mini-14. On the regular Mini-14, you do NOT need to fiddle with the bolt stop/ejector at all as the bolt stop ONLY functions as a stop, and the bolt features a spring-loaded "bump" type ejector.

I have never diassembled a Ranch Rifle, so I cannot advise on your issue, but I am sure that someone else can chime in.

benEzra
September 18, 2007, 07:47 PM
I am under the impression that far more departments use AR-15 pattern carbines than mini-14's.

cracked butt
September 18, 2007, 08:19 PM
The question should be "why don't PD's issue SKS rifles?
Pros:
-Just as accurate as mini-4
-chambered in a much harder hitting caliber
-Chinese and Russian Versions are just as light and handy as a Mini
-The more expensive models of SKS still only cost 1/2 that of a mini
-Much more durable/reliable than a Mini

Cons:
-rifles that have 2 or 3 letters for a name scare the sheeple.
-Not made in America, difficult to import because of goobermint restrictions.

blackhawk2000
September 18, 2007, 11:51 PM
Okay according to wiki a mini 14 weighs 6 lbs. 6 oz. I just weighed my AR M4 A2, and it only weighs 6 lbs. 4.1 oz. Close enough in my book to call them the same weight. Lighter versions can be easily had. So where does everyone get that the AR is heavier? Oh, and my Chicom SKS with 16" barrel is a bit over 8 lbs. So there goes that myth too. And someone please tell this AR that it's not supposed to work this dirty, because it's not listening to me.

http://www.freewebs.com/heads_up_racing/dirtyar.htm


Bottom line is money. It usually is with .gov. It doesn't help matters any when too many gun mag writers, write BS stories, because the gun manf. is lining their pockets.

Isn't everyone sick of just parroting the same BS gun myths over and over again? I know I'm getting sick of hearing them.

Jack A. Sol
September 18, 2007, 11:59 PM
The Mini is a fine rifle. It is extremley reliable and reasonably accurate. the new 580 series can be expected to shoot under 2 inches using decent ammo. one caveat is that you MUST use factory magazines exclusively for reliability.

I dont know how many people I see at training classes that have an otherwise excelleent gun go down becasue of crappy aftermarket magazines
Jack

Hkmp5sd
September 19, 2007, 01:05 AM
You've missed the primary reason. POLITICS. The Mini-14 hasn't been tagged as an "Assault Weapon" like the AR-15 has. The news media doesn't report the local police are armed with assault weapons and Charles Manson's mother doesn't sue because Charlie got shot by JBTs armed with assault rifles.

Ben Russell
September 19, 2007, 01:37 AM
Everyone has allot of things to say on this topic but are anyone of you guys actually law enforcment officers that have responded to a crime scene that has either just happened or is happening ?

I have and i will tell you that if you are showing up and you need a long gun then the AR is a good backup partner. The scary look that they have is half of what stops the criminal types from making bad choices like shooting at us.

Someone also said that they are a gun for someone that has been trained to use them and that is true they require some practice and training. But they are very, very accurate shot after shot.

atblis
September 19, 2007, 11:27 AM
I also suspect that a politically minded chief might be concerned about the appearance of their officers. The M16 is definitely military, the Mini 14 looks less evil if you will.

armoredman
September 19, 2007, 12:15 PM
SWAT wants to look military. Even our team is military in appearance, the black BDUs, the PASGT helmets, the kneepads/elbowpads, facemasks, and dada! M4geries. I guess the Mini-14 is too pastoral looking for them. Now dress a Mini up in some tacticool gear with holosights/etc, and maybe they'll look, but from my personal experiance with tactical responders in law enforcement, the .mil look is the thing to have. And ARs are definately .mil standard. Anybody notice that since the military went to the M4, the M4gery look among SWAT has gone WAAAY up?

benEzra
September 19, 2007, 12:25 PM
You've missed the primary reason. POLITICS. The Mini-14 hasn't been tagged as an "Assault Weapon" like the AR-15 has. The news media doesn't report the local police are armed with assault weapons and Charles Manson's mother doesn't sue because Charlie got shot by JBTs armed with assault rifles.
That was true in the 1990's, but is no longer the case, just as for the SKS. S.1431 (2004) and H.R.1022 declare the mini-14 to be an "assault weapon" by name, in any configuration, and the MSM seem to follow the lead of Feinstein et al and the VPC in that regard.

Anybody notice that since the military went to the M4, the M4gery look among SWAT has gone WAAAY up?
Post hoc, ergo prompter hoc is not necessarily the case. That may be a big part of it, but one could also argue that they are merely following the civilian market in adopting M4 style stocks and shorter uppers simply because they are more suitable for civilian/LEO use. For example, an adjustable length stock is very helpful for departments that have people of widely varying stature on the force, issue body armor, have heavy coats in the winter, etc. 16" or shorter barrels also make more sense on an all-purpose patrol carbine than a 20" HBAR. Flattops are desirable if you might ever want to issue optics (which are for function, not for looks). And so on.

atblis
September 19, 2007, 02:31 PM
Yes, but the public recognizes by name and appearance
M16
and
Ak47

That's about it.

The Mini 14 is not really considered an assault rifle.

benEzra
September 19, 2007, 04:48 PM
Yes, but the public recognizes by name and appearance
M16
and
Ak47

That's about it.

The Mini 14 is not really considered an assault rifle.
Considered by whom?

The mini-14 is no more and no less an "assault rifle" than an SKS, a Saiga, an M1 carbine, a Springfield M1A, a FAL, a SAR, or a Rock River LAR-15. None are "assault rifles," but all are called "assault weapons" by every anti that matters.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-09-12-weapons-ban_x.htm
http://www.vpc.org/studies/officeone.htm
http://www.vpc.org/graphics/awfactsheet.pdf
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1022
http://www.suffredin.org/LegislativeLibrary/Legislation.asp?LegislationID=123&Library=cook

JoshM
September 19, 2007, 06:06 PM
Before the giant switchover from revolvers to automatics in the LE world, I expect that bean counters could get a decent discount on Mini 14s if they decided to reequip/update with GP100's as duty revolvers.

I know the local LE, picked up a consignment of GP100's and .223 Ruger Tactical M77 (Mk 2 VLE) rifles over the same time period, and I find it hard to believe that such a deal was not a consideration for the purchasing team.

ArmedBear
September 19, 2007, 07:01 PM
Undoubtedly, the choice of the AR also has to do with price. As well it should.

It's now a multivendor product. No need to pay a hefty tribute to Colt if you want one. That has to influence its growing popularity.

I will say, though, that I think the "it looks bad-ass" factor does exist in LE, as it does in the civilian market. My club rents out a range to local and state LE, and SWAT teams, among others. So I see a few of these weeapons. Tell me: what exactly is the value add of a gun with a really expensive free-float 4-rail handguard system when there's nothing on the rails and it will never be used for long-range shooting? It does look "bad ass", though, I'll give it that much. And what the hell, I the taxpayer foot the bill anyway, right?

Don't get me wrong. As a taxpayer, I want the local cops to have what they need to do their jobs. However, I also expect the "bean counters" to do their jobs and see that my money is well-spent.

atblis
September 19, 2007, 07:05 PM
Considered by whom?
Did the "public" thing slip by you? I don't care what the media says. Most people are not gunnies.

I bet if you did a picture line up of those rifles

Mini-14
SKS
Saiga
M1 carbine
Springfield M1A
FAL
SAR
Rock River LAR-15

and asked people which ones were "assault rifles", every single one would pick out the "M16" and the "AK47". The next most popular would probably be the FAL. After that...?

Frog48
September 19, 2007, 07:10 PM
Once a month practice is not a hobby.

And unfortunately, alot of cops dont hit the range that often. Many cops arent "gunnies", their weapons are just another thing on their belt.

mpmarty
September 19, 2007, 07:33 PM
Our city police dept. still carries 12ga Rem 870s. The County Sheriff deputies carry both 870s and Remington 700s in 308 Win. w/ scopes. The State Police carry a variety of weapons depending on where they are deployed and what their duties involve. Their most effective weapon seems to be the ticket book.

ArmedBear
September 19, 2007, 07:36 PM
Southwestern Oregon?

There's only one kind of gun they're encouraged to practice with there, and it doesn't even need bullets.

mpmarty
September 19, 2007, 07:45 PM
Bear, I don't know what you are referring to but would point out that our former sheriff, Mr. Jim Main a few years ago terminated a kidnapping / hostage situation involving a very young girl held in an automobile on the interstate median by making a very respectable 250 yard head shot.

ArmedBear
September 19, 2007, 08:24 PM
Your area is famous throughout the West as speeding ticket central, and with ridiculous speed limits, as well. It's strange how a road that is considered perfectly safe at 70 in California or 75 in Idaho suddenly requires drivers to drop to 55 as they cross the state line into Oregon for safety's sake, even though the road looks identical on both sides.

Maybe if you have an Oregon plate, they don't pull you over, so you aren't aware of this.

That's what I was referring to. Target shooting with RADAR guns.

And re the kidnaper situation, nice shot! I'll bet he's a hunter. Too bad he can't mount the trophy from that one.

Sir Aardvark
September 19, 2007, 11:06 PM
Neo-Luddite & Alucard0822:

I have nothing against the Crown Vic - I just reported 2 FACTS:

1) Ford sells them cheap to cops;

2) Crown Vic's are prone to fires during a rear collision.

These are FACTS - please go ahead and look them up.

trueblue1776
September 19, 2007, 11:24 PM
2) Crown Vic's are prone to fires during a rear collision.

They fixed that 5 years ago, including a recall where Ford installed shields on the rear of the tanks.

It was never much of a problem, "prone" in legalese means it happened twice and someone saw a "pattern".

alucard0822
September 19, 2007, 11:56 PM
Thanks for the assist trueblue, although the police interceptor models have always had steel "splash plates" front and rear. ANY vehicle can be "prone to catch fire" in a rear or side collision, it is not that hard to puncture a gas tank, and it often happens in bad crashes. If I was to be involved in a wreck at highway speed I would rather be in a crown vic than anything else smaller than a semi, they are just that tough, and tend to keep the rubber side down. I suppose the police could switch to volvos, but I wouldn't want to foot the bill for maintenence, or the cars themselves, as one detective had a s60 that seemed to like staying in the shop more than on the road. They are the safest vehicles on the planet because you will probably crash the rental while your veh sits safely in the dealers shop as they fight swedish gremlins

Seattlefungus
September 20, 2007, 01:02 AM
In the mid to late 70's when I first came on, Ruger was selling the Mini cheap. Even the full auto versions. If you wanted an AR that meant just one company. Colt... The clone makers were small niche companies then. Now, 30 years later, a lot of them are fine major gun makers and well established. AR's Like Bushmaster, Rock River, Stag Arms, Colt (On average $350 more for the same rifle) . Just to name a few. My department bought Ruger Mini's in the late 70's. Only the Swat team used them at that time. Now we have a patrol rifle program. About 30% is certified in the rifle, all volunteers (Bushmaster M4's). In the last four years we've had five shootings where deadly force was used with officers armed with the rifle and all of the suspects were downed with one round. All head shots and all with iron sights. Distance varied in each incident from 50 yards to 10 feet. The ammo is the 5.56 Frangible. As Seattle is urban. Lastly, the parts are readily available so the armorer's can keep the rifles in service with minimal down time.

ArmedBear
September 20, 2007, 02:23 PM
IOW, once upon a time, Rugers were reasonably priced.

SoCalShooter
September 20, 2007, 02:24 PM
RE:ARMED BEAR IOW, once upon a time, Rugers were reasonably priced.

I nearly fell out of the chair with that one.

I think they are great actually and for what the LE needs them for they are great but honestly I would still take an AR over the mini.

qbpc
September 20, 2007, 02:47 PM
This thread has turned into a roller coaster from bashing the ruger to the crown vic. Why do these things get so far off topic?
Why rugers mini's they are reliable, shoot good enough 2" to 3" at a 100 yards is just fine (if you don't think so put a tape measure on your chest) and ruger give PD's a good discount.

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