Are They Secretly Illegal?

I was in my favorite gun store eyeballing a mosin and thinking about if I could talk the guy down to $80 out the door with it when my girlfriend said "oh come here they are so cute". She was talking about a Henry mini bolt and a pink Crickett. I didn't have a ruler on me at the time, but I started to wonder about the barrel and overall length of the guns. They looked short enough to be a short barreled rifle, but I have never heard of someone filling out an NFA transfer to buy his 7 year old a rifle. Does anyone know the barrel length on these little guns?

IIRC 16" they;re legal. jim
Checked the web site 16.125" on the barrel

The Chipmunk I bought my son at age 7 just barely fits both the barrel and overall length minimums, but it does meet the requirements.

According to their website, 16.125" is the barrel length.

Just over the bare minimum (16") to stay Title I.

I thought it was 18 inches or less. What is the minimum length before it becomes a SBR

So they are a hair from being illegal, as in...a crown job would make them illegal.

Yeah they're at least 16" but I'm guessing that is it. A friend recently bought one and he measured it. He really wanted something he could shoot the powderless colibri (sp.) out of. That being said they aren't made nearly as well as the "chipmunk" rifles, the quality just isn't there, where as the chipmunk had a well made bolt and cocking mechanisism the crickets have a plastic cocking knob with two plastic tabs on it that go into the bolt one of those tabs bunched up behind the spring and the rifle wouldn't cock. Getting the pins out for him was a pain and after that the only solution was to cut off one of those plastic tabs which I think were intended to keep the spring aligned on center. So far it has been working okay but the cheap price of the rifle meant it wasn't worthwhile for him to pay to ship it back to the manufacturer for a fix. Anyway just my 2 cents. Much better single shot rifles out there.

Justin

I thought it was 18 inches or less

18" is the minimum for shotguns (smooth bores, not rifling) with 26" overall length otherwise you need the ATF tax stamp. Handguns chambered for .410 shotshells have just enough rifling in the bore to be pistols not shotguns.

--wally.

I thought it was 18 inches or less. What is the minimum length before it becomes a SBR

Rifles = 16 inches

Shotguns = 18 inches

Don't ask why... its a government thing.

What about the SKS "paratrooper" models? I see those for sale all the time.

Size matters . . .

I was just thinking about how bad it would suck if some caring dad out there cut on the stock of a crickett to make it fit his son better and ended up in the federal pen. This is the kind of bureaucratic nonsense law that needs to be overturned.

It's legal. The ATF would be jumping (up and) down (on) FFL's throats if they were selling SBRs with none of the required paperwork.

A rifle is not dangerous if the barrel is 16" or longer. A shotgun is not dangerous if the barrel is 18" or longer.

A handgun is not dangerous unless it has a shoulder stock.

Various less-than-lethal goodies that the police sometimes employ are registered as destructive devices. Buckshot, of course, is not.

If a high-cap gun has more than ten specially designated foreign made parts, it is evil.

You cannot purchase a handgun at age 18 from an FFL, since handguns are so much more deadly than rifles. Rifles are legal at 18. You cannot purchase handgun ammunition at age 18, while you can purchase all the .50 BMG that you can afford (likely not much).

Any (rifle) caliber larger than .50 is extremely dangerous. Regarded (except for specific instances) as Destructive Devices.

A .410 in a rifled-barrel pistol is legal. The same round in a smoothbore pistol is an AOW, in need of a tax stamp.

Believe it or not, some federal weapons laws in the US are downright silly.

I'm so glad that all the kids with .50 cal rifles can't buy .22 target pistols. That knowledge lets me sleep at night instead of staying up in fear. Who thinks up this junk anyway...oh wait I know "It's the shoulder thing that goes up".

Believe it or not, all weapons laws in the US are downright silly.

there ya go. fixed that for ya.

Back in the 20s, Ithaca made a double-barrelled shotgun pistol called the Auto and Burglar. Here's a terrific article about it from L. Neil Smith:

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle1997/le970315-03.html

Wish I had one.

Rifles = 16 inches

Shotguns = 18 inches

Don't ask why... its a government thing.
In 1934, it was 18" for rifles and shotguns.

In 1936, .22 caliber rifles with 16" barrels were exempted.

In 1960, rifles with 16" barrels were exempted, as long as the overall length was 26".

http://www.nfaoa.org/resources.html

In 1960, rifles with 16" barrels were exempted, as long as the overall length was 26".Internet Legend has it that the drop to 16" for rifles was because somebody with a bit of influence in the .gov was going to sell M1 carbines to civilians until they found out the NFA prohibited that.

So, they dropped the length to accomodate for the carbines.

Internet Legend has it that the drop to 16" for rifles was because somebody with a bit of influence in the .gov was going to sell M1 carbines to civilians until they found out the NFA prohibited that.

So, they dropped the length to accomodate for the carbines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine

According to Wikipedia, M-1 barrels are 18".

So, if you cut the stock off of a rifle that has a 16.125 inch barrel, dropping it below the mandated minimum 26 inch OAL, is it still called a "Short Barrelled Rifle"?

So, if you cut the stock off of a rifle that has a 16.125 inch barrel, dropping it below the mandated minimum 26 inch OAL, is it still called a "Short Barrelled Rifle"?

Yep. Theoretically, you could make a single shot, break-action rifle, with a reciever 4" long, including pistol grip, as long as the barrel were at least 22" long. If the barrel were 25" long, and the reciever was less than 1", it'd be the same short barrel rifle as it would be with a 25" reciever/stock and a 3/4" barrel.

yesit'sloaded said:
What about the SKS "paratrooper" models? I see those for sale all the time.

Just a titch over 16" - completely legal.

I was just thinking about how bad it would suck if some caring dad out there cut on the stock of a crickett to make it fit his son better and ended up in the federal pen. This is the kind of bureaucratic nonsense law that needs to be overturned.

It would suck if a dad did this with any gun. The crickett isn't a special case. It isn't like it is a hard law to follow with some sort of complex calculations.

mp510 - -
Back in the 1960s, I heard the same story. A bit later, I did some reading and noted the published specs for standard length of the M1 Carbine barrel.

I checked with my gun guru, and he 'splained it this way - -
The govt sold off some M1A1 stocks - - the folding, "Airborne" type. A standard carbine installed into such a stock did not make the minimum 26-inch OVERALL LENGTH required by law, so there were a lot of shooters in technical violation of the law. In (what we today would consider) a rather astounding act of accomodation, the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Unit of the Treasure Department made a revision of minimum rifle barrel length to 16 inches. ATTU, of course, was the then-name for what we now know and love as the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. :rolleyes:

This explanation is shored up by one personal observation - -
When I bought my first Carbine, in about 1968, it seemed to have an unusual configuration barrel. Instead of some 1/4 to 3/8 of barrel extenting beyond the front sight band, there was something like 1-1/2 inches. I asked my gunsmith about it. He told me the above explanation, and opined that this was a modification done by someone who wanted to use an M1A1 stock, but not get into trouble, in the days before min. rifle bbl length was revised. Further, the 'Smith pointed out something I hadn't noticed: the extra barrel length was not rifled. I don't recall what it measured, but I think it was something like .320" inside diameter.

Ol' Bill (much younger then than I am now :p) asked if I'd prefer to have the barrel at normal length, and I gratefully accepted. When he removed the front sight band, you could see the join where the smoothbore portion had been beautifully attached to the regular barrel, the whole refinished, and the front sight re-installed. Bill cut off the smooth bore portion and recrowned the barrel for me.

I still own that Carbine. I later hunted up some M2 carbine parts and converted it to selective fire. IS JOHNNY CONFESSING TO COMMISSION OF A FEDERAL FELONY??!!?? :eek: Well, not really. I did so advisedly, during the month of Novenber 1968, while "The Amnesty" was in effect. I even had the assistance of an ATTU Agent in filling out the registration paper. :D

Best,
Johnny

well look at an AK or M4 barrel. they are a little over 16" and if you look at it right, thats not alot. (for accuracy's sake)

as in...a crown job would make them illegal.

If your gunsmith feels the need to saw the end of your barrel off for a "crown job", it is time to find a new smith...

If they are exactly 16" to begin with, a crown job could reduce it to 15.999 inches. I don't put that kind of thing past the ATF.

If they are exactly 16" to begin with, a crown job could reduce it to 15.999 inches. I don't put that kind of thing past the ATF.
IIRC 16" they;re legal. jim
Checked the web site 16.125" on the barrel

I'm so glad that all the kids with .50 cal rifles can't buy .22 target pistols. That knowledge lets me sleep at night instead of staying up in fear. Who thinks up this junk anyway...oh wait I know "It's the shoulder thing that goes up".

That's the really sad thing. I can legally go buy armor-piercing incendiary tracer ammunition for my belt-fed Ma Deuce, but can't go buy .22LR for a Ruger MkIII. Why is it that Congress fears my purchasing of CCI Mini-Mag so badly that they felt it necessary to make it a crime for me to do so?

For the unknowing, here's a mind-bender for ya.

You can't chop the barrel and stock on a rifle to make it a pistol. Big, big no-no.

However...

If you take that very same action and manufacture it with a short barrel as a pistol and it is entirely legal. Think Remington XP100.

Go figure.

Brad

If they are exactly 16" to begin with, a crown job could reduce it to 15.999 inches. I don't put that kind of thing past the ATF.

Given the price of a Crickett or a Chipmunk, you would just about be better off getting a whole new barrel or new gun. I bought my Chipmunk used for $75. New ones run about $120. Recrowning will run about $50-60.

Come on! Are you really going to reinvest have the value of a new gun in recrowning a little .22 that isn't all that great to start with?

I guess if you are going to that expense, then you can add a flash hider or muzzle brake to make up the difference.

well look at an AK or M4 barrel. they are a little over 16" and if you look at it right, thats not alot. (for accuracy's sake)

Actually, a true M4 barrel is 14.5". The civilian versions have either a longer, 16" barrel, or they have a muzzle device permanently attached, in order to make them 16" long. More examples of accomodating a stupid, arbitrary law.

I checked with my gun guru, and he 'splained it this way - -
The govt sold off some M1A1 stocks - - the folding, "Airborne" type. A standard carbine installed into such a stock did not make the minimum 26-inch OVERALL LENGTH required by law, so there were a lot of shooters in technical violation of the law. In (what we today would consider) a rather astounding act of accomodation, the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Unit of the Treasure Department made a revision of minimum rifle barrel length to 16 inches. ATTU, of course, was the then-name for what we now know and love as the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.

How would shortening the barrel length from 18" to 16" get a rifle that was already too short (<26" overall length) to meet the overall length requirement?

They didn't shorten the barrel, they changed the law.

They didn't change the 26" law. How does changing the 18" law to 16" law affect a rifle that is <26 inches to start with?

crickets have a plastic cocking knob with two plastic tabs on it that go into the bolt

This must be something new. I bought one for my daughter last year and it is a solid piece. Only polymer items are the butt plate, and the front sight base. Very accurate too, with the Super Colibris.

Justin

....

You can avoid all of this nonsense by teaching your kids to shoot using black powder guns.

At 18 you can buy/own a percussion revolver. (Wish I'd known that when I was 18. :banghead:)
IIRC, removable stocks for percussion pistols are still legal.
No minimum length requirements for rifles.
Navy Arms used to manufacture a 14" 12ga SxS percussion shottie.

I expect my daughter's first long gun will be a .36 squirrel rifle we build from a kit.

hkmp5sd wrote:
They didn't change the 26" law. How does changing the 18" law to 16"
law affect a rifle that is <26 inches to start with?

I'm not sure what the previous posters were talking about, but there are at least 2 Federal cases from the 1950s and 1960s that reference the M1A1 Carbine.

In point of fact, it was those two cases that firmly established that, for purposes of the Federal NFA '34, NOT necessarily for the purposes of State Laws (in particular California), the Overall Length of a Rifle is to be measured with the Stock in the Firing Position.

You can check it out, M1A1 Carbines, and the later folding stock Uzi Carbines, are LESS THAN 26" with the Stock Folded. They are perfectly legal as Title I Firearms since they are over 26" with the Stock in the Firing Position.

Futuristic

and the later folding stock Uzi Carbines, are LESS THAN 26" with the Stock Folded.

Yes, I know. I have one. :)