[Tom Servo]

I get a lot of folks from law enforcement at the range. Some are real marksmen, while most are adequate at self-defense ranges. We're talking 7-8" groups at 7 yards. As a whole, they're a nice bunch of folks.

Thing is, we also get a few who give me real cause for worry. I had two locals tonight who couldn't hit the 10-ring on a 3x4' silhouette. They shot down the pulley and conveyor wires to the target carrier. I was informed by one of my employees that they'd been previously warned about muzzle discipline.

They are in fact law enforcement, as they badged me (with quite some profanity) when I told them they'd have to leave.

From what I remember from qualifications, anything less than 75% is considered a danger to bystanders.

So, how much training do most municipal officers get? At what point does the system catch this performance, and what remedial measures are required? Bear in mind, this wasn't stress shooting or timed fire.

[yesit'sloaded]

Thats why some of us carry guns rather than rely on the police.

[JWarren]

So, how much training do most municipal officers get?


Short answer: Not enough.

I'm not disparaging LEOs by saying that. But there was a study done recently (by the FBI, I think) that showed LEO's getting less than 20 hours per year of trigger time on average, if I recall correctly. Tomorrow, I'll see if I can dig up the study if someone doesn't do it first.

I'd love to see LEO's have more opportunity to practice on the dept.'s nickle. Hell, they already don't get paid enough for putting their lives on the line. You'd think that they could at least get the fringe benefit of getting to shoot a lot for free.

But budgets are what they are.


-- John

[larry_minn]

Nothing new. Many Officers (it seems) think of a gun as a tool they are FORCED to carry. (Think Colombo) I was RO at a private range that allowed LEO free use.
First they did NOT want any of our people present "we don't want to give away our tactics" So because the club had agreed we handed them the keys. (note the range had just been cleaned/repainted/repaired) Well I was there two nights later. You would think a drug bust/shootout had happened. Lights shot out, target turners shot, the dang PILLARS down center of range (that do NOT have any lanes by) also hit Less then 10' infront of firing line .
I called senior club member and was thinking of calling Police as clearly someone must have broken in and shot up place. Nope the PD.
Next time they asked we informed them our insurance forbid us to let them use range. And wer agreed if any of us got in trouble (caught in middle of bank robbery) and others saw we would NOT call the Police. ;( This was decades ago so hopefully things have changed.
Then again check the GSSF online scores. Police shoot the same course. Normally if I was LEO I would be in $$ and I am high middle of pack in civilian. I feel any Officer who practices at all beyond required training should compete in GSSF. Its dang near a sure thing.

[MisterPX]

Shoot once a year, because you're forced to, and see how well you do.;)

[gregthehand]

At the department I was at, they had to shoot once a year, and for many that's all they did. I know one who literally told me the only time his firearm ever left it's holster was during qual, and then he cleaned and put it back in the holster for another year.

[Mousegun]

If you are a truck driver, you strive to drive it well if for no other reason as to stay alive.

If you are an engineer, you strive to make your designs perfect if for no other reason as to keep others alive.

If you are a LEO, the main thing that keeps you and others alive may come down to what is on your hip. I could never understand why a generally quality group of professionals often overlook this essential part of that profession.

I was in charge of repairs on a police pistol range for many years and never had "nothing to do".

OTOH those that practiced often were hard to keep up with in competition.

[LeonCarr]

IME about 90% of LEOs shoot only when they have to (six month/yearly qualifications, etc).

The other ten percent live at the range. These are your firearms instructors, SWAT guys/girls, and people like me who are just addicted to shooting :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[Deanimator]

They are in fact law enforcement, as they badged me (with quite some profanity) when I told them they'd have to leave.

You need to notify their supervisors.

Bad skills and a bad attitude amount to a negligent homicide waiting to happen.

If it had been me, I'd have asked them if they'd like to repeat their language in front of a supervisor, and that I'd be very willing to call one.

[jay43]

One of the problem with LEO's not getting enough range time is cost. Ammo costs range time costs. some of these small municipalities and towns just don't have a couple grand lying around so the leo's can practice, unfortunitly thats how it is, and I can only imagine what NYPD, or LAPD or some of the larger cities pay just to qualify some of there officers

[GRB]

I am not in a municipal department, but in a federal agency. The truth be told, we get about 4 to 6 hours of range time, 4 times per year. That is it, no more. That includes qualifications and tactical shooting exercises. That does not include classroom time, of which we get about another 8hours per year regarding firearms use, regulations and so forth. Sometimes, and this is only once every few years, we get additional firearms training in the form of some sort of practical exercises. Lately, much to my dismay, the training times above also include practical exercises in baton training and chemical weapons training. I believe training in those should not cut into firearms training, but should be offered on other days. The brass do not think so.

Now that may not sound like a lot of training, but it is sufficient in most instances or with most shooters. It is amazing how many of our agents are more than proficient because of it, how many are proficient, and how few do not do well enough and therefore require additional remedial work (in addition to the regular hours shown above). Remember this is training, actual training by qualified instructors, and not just going to the range to have a blast.

I was an instructor for 14 years. I would like to have seen more training. I would think that training every month would be optimal, or that every second month would be optimal, but either way it would be difficult to accomplish. It would be difficult because of the manpower it requires (most agents are off working criminal investigations of some sort that require them to be dedicated to that task), and it is difficult to round up enough range personnel from among them. It is also difficult on the logistics end. Just imagine having to train a few hundred agents over the course of a month, then set up and be ready to do it again the following moth. That would not work. As for every two months, it could possibly work, but it would be a tight squeeze indeed because my agency has at least 6 weeks of firearms training going on each quarter just to get folks qualified. That time does not include remedial shooting. Nor does it include training for people who are being qualified for the initial time with long guns such as the MP5 or M4. Those training sessions last at least a few days each and have to be fit in among the regular qualifications/training sessions. In addition, the costs for training law enforcement officers every quarter is high relative to each department size versus their budget. Training on a more frequent basis is probably cost prohibitive for many agencies or departments. So, as it works out, quarterly qualifications have become the norm within my agency, and within many other agencies and departments throughout the country.

Now as for law enforcement officers being jerks at a private range, what can I say. Their shooting down cables, and their badging people while displaying unprofessional behavior, is unacceptable just as it would be at their police range. I am sure their range officers, if worth their saltpeter, would have slammed them for such behavior at the police range. At least I would have done so, and that could be why I am no longer an instructor but alas no one will tell me why they took me off range duties, but I readily admit I got on shooter's cases when they were unsafe. You apparently did the same, and had them leave the range, good for you. Now don't allow them to come back until they promise to act responsibly. If they really want to shoot, they will act accordingly. Letting them back, to do the same allover again, would be less than responsible on your part. I think you did good, now keep it up.

All the best,
Glenn B

[MechAg94]

My range decided not to let police shoot free. They had apparently done it in the past, but decided against it when it was brought up. They didn't give all the details as to why.

[Ala Dan]

I use the local PD range, so I have too play by their rules. Most PO's
who frequent this range [and some civilians] ] are very proficent to
the max; with a few of both struggling to hit the B-27 target or the
bowling pin target, from the 7 yard line~!:scrutiny: :uhoh::eek:

[Deanimator]

My range decided not to let police shoot free. They had apparently done it in the past, but decided against it when it was brought up. They didn't give all the details as to why.

I've had varied experiences with cops using ranges where I either belonged as a club member or shot.

There's a range in the basement of the Gray's Armory in downtown Cleveland. It used to be one of the Cuyahoga County Pistol League ranges. The CMHA housing police used to shoot there. It looked like a troop of chimps on acid, armed with MAC-10s had been down there. There were bullet holes EVERYWHERE but downrange. When the Armory completely remodeled the range, they booted the cops.

I used to belong to the NASA Lewis Sportsman's Club. The center rented their outdoor range out to other government agencies. We weren't allowed to fire automatic weapons on the range, but they allowed Federal law enforcement to. One year, we built up all new target frames. A Fed agency (DEA, I think) came down with their full-auto Steyr AUGs and DESTROYED just about every target frame we'd built. No appologies, no offers of replacement. Supposedly, they showed attitude to people objecting to their trashing the range.

On the other hand, I used to shoot service rifle matches with a Berea cop who was one of the regional snipers. He was professional and a good shooter. Never gave anybody any problems.

[CountGlockula]

I can relate.

I also work at an indoor shooting range and I'm happy/sad to have LEOs come by.

I'm grateful that they're coming in to improve their marksmanship and training; but sadden of what their performance has shown. But some are still in the academy or having their hostile tactical test the next day.

One concern is that some of those attending the academy are not allowed to go to a range in their personal time, because their firearms instructors don't want them to develope bad habits. BAD HABITS? I think they need to gain as much bad habits to spawn into good habits.

Our boys/girls in blue need more time at the range.

[Tom Servo]

You need to notify their supervisors. Bad skills and a bad attitude amount to a negligent homicide waiting to happen. If it had been me, I'd have asked them if they'd like to repeat their language in front of a supervisor, and that I'd be very willing to call one.
They're both banned, with the understanding that I will have them cited by the local police for criminal trespass if they return. They were both Atlanta City Police, and I've filed a formal complaint with their department, asking for remedial safety training and a reminder that talking to citizens the way they did, in or out of uniform, is unacceptable.

What bugs me the most is the fact that I've worked in that jurisdiction, and every other APD officer I've met has been professional and very courteous. Several shoot at the range, and they're a good bunch. These two stand out in really stark contrast.

I make a point of mentioning this because starting pay for APD officers in 2001 was $30,000/yr. I admire them for what they do--I wouldn't do it for that pay.

I knew that training standards leave a bit to be desired, but I thought they received more training than this. We have a situation where the officers demonstrated an inability to hit the 10-ring on a standard B-27 target at 15-20', with numerous shots missing the paper completely.

I can take a person off the street, who's never shot before, and teach them to do better than that in 20 minutes.

I understand that economics play a role, but funding shouldn't be the reason officers are placed in danger.

[Deanimator]

They're both banned, with the understanding that I will have them cited by the local police for criminal trespass if they return. They were both Atlanta City Police, and I've filed a formal complaint with their department, asking for remedial safety training and a reminder that talking to citizens the way they did, in or out of uniform, is unacceptable.

Well done. APD seems to be having some problems lately, as evidenced by the murder of that old woman via the perjured warrant.

I can't imagine my local PD acting that way.

[sacp81170a]

From what I remember from qualifications, anything less than 75% is considered a danger to bystanders.

In our POST quals, anything less than 80% is failing. In my department, failure to qual in the first reshoot requires remedial training and another trip back to the range. Failure to qual twice in a row on the next trip to the range means disciplinary suspension or termination. 90% is the score required for Sharpshooter, 95% for expert.

I'm a CCW instructor, and yes, I've had folks walk in off the street and shoot better than half the officers on the force, but that was with no one shooting back and under no stress. Shooting well is an essential part of the equation, but it's only one factor. Knowing when to shoot and when not to are far more critical.

[Pilgrim]

One of the problem with LEO's not getting enough range time is cost. Ammo costs range time costs. some of these small municipalities and towns just don't have a couple grand lying around so the leo's can practice, unfortunitly thats how it is, and I can only imagine what NYPD, or LAPD or some of the larger cities pay just to qualify some of there officers
Ammo and range are not the big costs. The big cost is payroll. No matter how you schedule the range, some officers, a third perhaps, will be there on overtime. If you expand the range hours to limit trainee overtime, then the instructors will be drawing overtime.

I was a department firearms instructor, and one time management - which rarely attended firearms training (another long story) - decided overtime could be limited by running the range on the weekend where one shift ran into another. To get the coverage management wanted to limit overtime for patrol officers, other staff like detectives, civil, deputy coroner, and firearms instructors made out like bandits on overtime.
So, how much training do most municipal officers get? At what point does the system catch this performance, and what remedial measures are required? Bear in mind, this wasn't stress shooting or timed fire.
Mine was a rural county sheriff's department with some municipal duties in cities which contracted with the Sheriff for law enforcement.

The Sheriff budgeted two hours of firearms training per sworn employee every two months. Because of the location of the range, one of those hours was spent in traveling to and from the range. So, we effectively had six hours of training per year for handgun, shotgun, and patrol rifle. Since one hour was annual day qualification, and one hour was annual night qualification, that left four hours for real 'training'. Therefore, it was not unusual to see that the only really good shooters in the department were those who did a good amount of shooting on their own.

Most deputies could meet the 75% minimum score required for qualification. If they didn't, they were given additional range time to make 75%. I encountered only one deputy whom I considered unsatisfactory in that she loaded the cartridges in her magazine backwards in preparation to firing the qualification course. When she shot her pistol dry during qualification, she couldn't remember which button/lever dropped the empty magazine, returned the slide to battery after the reload, and what position of the safety lever made her pistol safe.

A letter was sent to her commanding officer saying she didn't qualify. The remedy was to schedule 8 hours additional training on a weekend, where she drew time and a half overtime. Needless to say, management was not happy when a deputy failed to qualify. I am pretty confident the failure to qualify was considered more the instructor's fault than the deputy's.

Another factor that figures in overall officer proficiency, including firearms, is that when money is scarce, training is the first to take a 'hit' in cost reduction.

Pilgrim

[GRB]

A side note on a comment made above:

A Fed agency (DEA, I think) came down with their full-auto Steyr AUGs and DESTROYED just about every target frame we'd built. No appologies, no offers of replacement. If you were building target frames, I imagine they were wood. If the owner of the range allowed fully automatic weapons to be fired at wood framed targets, and did not contractually arrange for the shooting agency to repalce them if ruined, then the owner is an exceptionally poor business person. Even if the target frames were made of metal, such a contracual agreement should have been made if the target frames could not withstand the ammo being shot at the range. In fact, with or without a contract, it would have been really poor planning to allow for use of ammo that would quickly destroy the frames, or looking at it another way it was very poor planning to make use of target frames that could not withstand repeatedly being struck by gun fire. I mean, that is a fact of operating a range, many shots will hit the frames, especially if fully auto firearms are allowed. You almost make it sound as if it was some evil mission of the DEA, rather it sounds like p--- poor planning to me. Of course, nasty attitude if given, was probably a bad thing, but I have to wonder about any possible attitude from the other side. Nasty attitude is often a response to nasty attitude. Not that one bad thing excuses another, but you make it seem all one sided. The truth be told, the manager or owner of the range apaprently did not plan very well. I am not making excuses for the federal agency, but let's face it, the owner of the range should know how to operate the business, and that includes knowing what type of damage to expect, and being prepared for it, or knowing how to best minimize such damage through use of proper materials or limiting types of ammo.

All the best,
Glenn B

[Jim K]

Aren't Atlanta cops only required to shoot minute of grandmother at ten feet? Sounds like that PD is in sore need of a new attitude and a new chief.

Jim

[boalex207]

PX, greg & leon are right on the money.

The vast majority of LEO's shoot once or twice a year because they are made to. As long as they get their 70% or whatever it takes to squeak by, they have no inclination to ever try to improve.

Sad but true. I see it regularly.


Also, very few LE agencies "train" most only "qualify"

[Tom Servo]

Aren't Atlanta cops only required to shoot minute of grandmother at ten feet? Sounds like that PD is in sore need of a new attitude and a new chief.
I didn't start this thread to bash cops, nor do I want it to go there.

I've lived and worked in the city, and I've found APD to be almost unanimously friendly and professional. They're overworked and underpaid, and it takes a special kind of person to do that job.

That's part of why this situation galls me so. These two were way out of line, and certainly not what I'd expect of the department in terms of behavior.

The answers to my original question really disturb me. 80% against a stationary target is one thing, but 80% against a moving under stress is something altogether different.

I'm no Ed McGivern, but if I only shot a couple of hours a year, I'm not sure I could make 80% when the time came. Obviously, our cops need more range time and training.

As far as budgetary constraints, is it possible for departments to outsource to private instructors? Officers could be given vouchers for ammo and fuel costs as an incentive.

[Deanimator]

If you were building target frames, I imagine they were wood. If the owner of the range allowed fully automatic weapons to be fired at wood framed targets, and did not contractually arrange for the shooting agency to repalce them if ruined, then the owner is an exceptionally poor business person.
The "owner" wasn't a business. It was NASA Lewis Research Center. And if I had to bet, the people who trashed the range either never mentioned automatic weapons or didn't mention that they were going to physically damage the range.

When people come to your house, do you make them sign a contract agreeing not to destroy your home and its furnishings?

If common courtesy and decency aren't part of your op plan, maybe law enforcement isn't the career path for you.

[larry_minn]

Then there is the problem. IF the Police do take training/equipment seriously there are those who get upset at the "Militilization" of the Police.

Yep we hear about abuses/serious mistakes. IMO they should be exposed and those involved reprimanded/punished (depending on situation of course)
We do NEED to remember most Law Enforcement are dang good people doing a hard job. Yep I second guess them like everyone else...
As said the cost in ammo is chicken feed even in large dept. There are options everywhere. I see LEO only classes for dirt cheap/free offered fairly often. Going to a range and shooting a stationary target is not a bad start.
I was member of action shooting group. We welcomed LEO but few showed and only ONE came back second time.
The group was very good at being careful of folks ego. (until you were known) :) The Officer would shoot a hostage (or two) make other simple mistakes (range max 50' in winter) and we would tell them that everyone shoots a couple at first and they likely are terrorists in hiding. Thing is the Officers never came back. The one who did. UFTA. His El Presidente were sub 8 seconds with cover jacket zipper zipped. Speed rig no cover IIRC sub 6 seconds with all A hits.

[Deanimator]

As far as budgetary constraints, is it possible for departments to outsource to private instructors? Officers could be given vouchers for ammo and fuel costs as an incentive.

Actually, there was an article in either American Handgunner or Guns once about a private shooting consultant hired by the NYPD after their payouts on wrongful death suits by bystanders got to be intolerable. I think this was in the early '70s. I recall him saying that the biggest problem he ran into was cops not using the front sight.

Actually, one way to get cops to shoot would be rewarding them for above average performance in IDPA or other pistol matches. A verified score in recognized competition could earn them a bonus, time off, or some other reward. They'd get training often better than what a department provides, and local competitions would be bolstered.

[308win]

Seems to me that Glen B's orginal post about costs and logistics to deliver training is a good argument for privatizing the firearms training. A private concern could deliver training to conform to department policy just as well as department training resources.

[Scorpiusdeus]

I can not vouch for the accuracy of this document so take it for what it's worth:

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

[Stretchman]

When I was a Security Officer ( try not to laugh ) we had to qualify every year. normally shot like, 238/240, or pretty close. Never got the perfect score.

I used to go shooting at least once a month. Save some money and hit the range instead of the bar. I got pretty good. What I saw out there....

No names, but...

One officer had a .38 revolver that was so corroded, we had to use wd-40 we gleep from the client's cleaning closet to free it. he promises to check the weapon daily. Probably never came out of his holster for a year.

Several highly qualified officers cannot hit the targets at all in a move and shoot competition. The score in the low 20s-40s, and when queried, we are told they had never before fired their duty weapons. One officer had carried his revolver for almost 10 years, and didn't ever qual with it. Just got that puppy pencil whipped.

Out of 7 security officer involved shootings in this state, from what I could gather, there were only 2 that happened with licensed officers. The others were carrying without a ticket. No arrests were ever made. Both officers and civilians were shot. Nobody checked on licensing.

The most qualified officer I ever met when it came to firearms was the tallest tale teller in the history of the known universe. He could shoot the X out of the bullseye offhand while eating a sandwich. The guy was good, and he knew gear better than anyone I have ever met. even though he was total BS, he never failed to back me up on a call, until the last night we worked together. learned groups from him.

Me, i used to shake in 1989 when I started out as an unarmed officer. I was petrified. Couldn't look at a handgun, but then, I'd been thorugh some trauma. Slowly but surely I conquered my fear, began reading, practicing, and got proficient in firearms and their usage. best thing to do is range time, and reading, like the gun rags, and this board. Practice makes perfect. No one starts out that way.

And as far as the cops not being able to shoot? Well, you have to know cops. They probably were out there getting hammered, sweeping each other, making goofs of themselves. Hard to explain, unless you've worked with them. Can they really shoot? Do you feel lucky?

[LiquidTension]

Training at my department consists of qualifying once per year. We shoot off our old duty ammo during practice, run through the night firing practice (with cheap reloads), shoot the course for score, then shoot the night firing portion for score. That's it. No real training other than arrest scenarios that may or may not involve using your sidearm at all. Supposedly we can get practice ammo through the department, but nobody in my county has seen any. I've gotten the ball rolling on that though, hopefully we'll see some ammo soon.

[oldcop1971]

most cops around here qualify once a year and hardly ever train. Get the 70% passing score and worry about it again next year. I saw a deputy with a Safariland triple-retintion holster take 2 hands and 36 seconds to get his weapon out. on the range, no stress. but someone told him it was a secure holster!! was talking to a SRO (school resource officer) last nite who said he never carries a gun off duty:eek:. qualify once a year and he's responsible for an elementary and high school with ~800 students.....i try to shoot as much as possible, but it's still woefully little. thank God i had good instructors in 72 and have been shooting for 36 years. even getting older and shakier i regularlly out shoot the young'uns around here. sure, cops are rarely involved in real shootings, but we need to be more than marginally sufficient with tools capable of deadly force.

[Jack A. Sol]

Most gun owners should have more training than cops. cops are limited by thier department regulations to some extent, but the civilians are not and are actually the real deterrence to attack in the US.
if you are not attending training classes at least 2 times a year and some sort of match at least 2 times a year, then you are slackingand need to turn in your guns or sell some to pay for training.

Your guns dont do no good if you suck at shooting (and i aint talking about target shooting or hunting either)

[Torchman]

This is the Coast Guard Practical Pistol Course, shot every 6 months, along with classroom and Judgemental Shooting. Everything is from your duty holster, and I think its a good test. Qual is 45 out of 50, anything inside the 4 on a standard silhouete target. We recently shifted from the M-9 to the SIG 229 DAK, so this course is only about a year old.

11. Course of Fire.
NOTE: This course is to be shot using four 12 round magazines with 2 loose rounds in
the shooter’s pocket for a total of 50 rounds.
Phase Stage String
Phase 1
3-Yard Line
1. 1. Close
Quarter to
2. Strong Hand
Supported
(1 mag 12 rds)
3 rds in 5 sec
3 rds in 5 sec
1. Reaction Hand Unsupported
(sighted in on target)
3 rds in 5 sec
2. Strong Hand Supported
with a Magazine Change
(1 mag 12 rds)
4 rds in 12 sec
(fire 3rounds
reload
fire 4th round)
Phase 2
7-Yard Line
3. Strong Hand Unsupported
2 rds in 3 sec
2 rds in 3 sec
1. Strong Side High Barricade
Tactical Load
(1 mag 12 rds)
Reaction Side High Barricade
12 rds in 30 sec
(6 rds strong side)
(6 rds reaction side)
{tac mag will be empty
with a round in chamber}
Phase 3
17-Yard Line
Kneeling Low Barricade
*admin reload of 2 rounds to weapon
after holstering*
6 rds in 15 sec
Ordnance Manual Enclosure
(4) PPC Prefire
3. Kneeling Low Side Barricade
Magazine & Position Change
Strong Side High Barricade
Reaction Side High Barricade
(1 mag 12 rds)
15 rds in 45 sec
(3 rds kneeling position)
(6 rds strong side)
(6 rds reaction

[DontBurnMyFlag]

my training in the academy was extensive, however it did not cover nearly enough. we did not have to draw and fire while moving or anything of that nature. there were several stages in which we ran from target to target engaging in different positions and whatnot.

the requalification takes place every 6 months and just serves to show an officers general competency with their duty weapon.

I, on the other hand, make it to the range every two weeks. I practice from self defense ranges, both eyes open, double taps, retention firing etc. I also take my time and assure myself I still have accuracy at the 25 yard range as well.

I know more officers than not, who train themselves or seek professional training outside of the department mandated weapons qualifications.

[Nil]

Would ammo be tax deductible for police officers? It seems like it could be classified as a job-related training expense.

[Spreadfire Arms]

most cops shoot only when their department:

1. supplies the ammunition
2. gives them orders to go the range
3. pays them to go to the range to shoot

translated, in Texas, that requirement is statutory once per year per TCLEOSE guidelines. couple that with the current ammo shortage, and it may not even be once every 12 months.

unfortunately, many regular (i.e. not tactical team guys) officers only shoot when they are required or mandated to do so by their agency. that usually translates to lack of target practice (a perishable skill) coupled with bad habits that haven't been broken.

fortunately the average LE officer-involved shooting is less than 7 yards. given the fact that it doesn't mean the officer may survive that gunfight, at least if they can hit a man-sized target at that distance, then, they may actually live to talk about it.

[strambo]

cops are limited by thier department regulations to some extentNot at all since you are comparing them to "civilians". A typical "civilian" job is 100% limited in firearms training...there is none. So, all training is outside of work.

There is no reason in the world why the average LEO should shoot worse than the average non-LEO gun owner. A glass-half-full person would look at any department training as cost free, paid, extra training they get above and beyond what a citizen does all by themselves.

I'd love to have a job pay for any amount of firearms training, even if "only" 8 hrs per year. So, I'm starting my own business and will pay myself to attend such training since it will be related!;)

LEOs can get tax deductions for training and equipment (to include gun purchases) as well...another benefit they have financially over the typical non-LEO shooter.

Bottom line, there are no excuses...but hey it's their life (well maybe some citizen dependent on them/bystander).:uhoh:

[sacp81170a]

Would ammo be tax deductible for police officers? It seems like it could be classified as a job-related training expense.

I've claimed mine as a training expense every year so far...

[LiquidTension]

Sure, you could deduct ammo - but it doesn't help me. I take the standard deduction as it's much more than my itemized expenses. If I could deduct ALL of my firearms related expenses it would be worth it, but for just .40 it's not even close.

Here's a funny thing about my department: We're required to maintain proficiency with our sidearms. We are only supposed to shoot department supplied ammo through department issued guns. The department doesn't supply practice ammo. So, technically, the only time you're allowed to shoot your gun is when you qualify. Nice, huh? Thankfully they don't enforce the "our ammo only" rule.

[sacp81170a]

Thankfully they don't enforce the "our ammo only" rule.

Ahh, grasshopper, the reason for any rule that's systematically ignored in a beauracracy is to cover the management's butt in case you happen to have an accident. If you're using your own ammo and something bad happens, the department can disclaim any responsibility. Rules aren't for your protection, they're to satisify the need to shift responsibility.

[LiquidTension]

Oh, I'm aware of Policy #698 - CYA. The only purpose it's served so far is to get some movement on the department supplied ammo front.

[glummer]

Jack
if you are not attending training classes at least 2 times a year and some sort of match at least 2 times a year, then you are slackingand need to turn in your guns …Did you hear about the new Schumer/Feinstein Handgun Proficiency & Safety Bill?
If you are not attending training classes at least 2 times a year and some sort of match at least 2 times a year, then you need to turn in your guns to the BATFE.
They want you to come to Washington to testify for it. What do you say?

[pohill]

I went through the Academy in 1987. On the range, they told us that the average cop scores 96% - in real life, that drops down to 18%. With that in mind, I have to chuckle when I'm at the range and non-cops are dumping over the cop's shooting ability (when the cops aren't there, by the way). It's one thing to sit at a bench on a nice sunny day and fire at paper targets and gloat over your shooting ability...
As another poster said, it's more important knowing when not to shoot, or how to diffuse a situation without drawing your handgun. One of my sergeants was in a situation where he had to shoot a guy in the head with a .357. The guy gave him no choice, as he was about to kill his wife. A few years later, this same sergeant faced a man armed with a knife. He had every justificatin to shoot this guy, too, but he didn't - he disarmed him with his hands. He was awarded the Medal of Honor for the second incident.
Shooting skills are very important, of course, but I think what's even more important is being able to handle the adrenaline rush that comes with any violent situation. And that's something that takes time. So that overweight aging cop that has to draw his weapon has a distinct advantage over that young hotshot who scores high on the range - the old guy knows how to keep his cool.

[Pilgrim]

I've claimed mine as a training expense every year so far...
To be safe, I suggest you keep a log of your training with such info as courses of fire, ammo expended, and pictures of your targets.

Pilgrim

[308win]

To be safe, I suggest you keep a log of your training with such info as courses of fire, ammo expended, and pictures of your targets.


The IRS will not allow hobby expenses as deductions. If I were an IRS Agent having a bad day I would allow only those expenses for which you had department authorization; if I were having a good day I would allow those expenses you incurred practicing with your duty weapon(s); and, if you got lucky and I didn't look at your employee expenses you could potentially get away with whatever you claimed.

[Rexster]

I work for a once-a-year qual agency, though things are looking up. Our last in-service training cycle included a few hours of classroom and then live-fire draw-and-shoot in dim light using the "Stressfire" method, the the next training cycle will include a full day of active shooter using Simunitions guns. There have been some really good elective classes offered over the years, but getting signed up has always been difficult, with demand exceeding the number of available slots. I have sought outside training, including SouthNarc's ECQC and the Snubby Summit, where I sampled instruction from several nationally-known trainers, though the only live-fire I attended there was a class by Michael DeBethancourt. Other guys I work with shoot competition from IDPA to IPSC to three-gun action shooting and even cowboy action shooting, though the latter is usually comically far removed from relevance to survival on the street.

[Rexster]

I work for a once-a-year qual agency, though things are looking up. Our last in-service training cycle included a few hours of classroom and then live-fire draw-and-shoot in dim light using the "Stressfire" method. The next training cycle will include a full day of active shooter using Simunitions guns. There have been some really good elective classes offered over the years, but getting signed up has always been difficult, with demand exceeding the number of available slots. I have sought outside training, including SouthNarc's ECQC and the Snubby Summit, where I sampled instruction from several nationally-known trainers, though the only live-fire I attended there was a class by Michael DeBethancourt. Other guys I work with shoot competition from IDPA to IPSC to three-gun action shooting and even cowboy action shooting, though the latter is usually comically far removed from relevance to survival on the street.