[rusty bubbles]

This looks like the right thread to ask- I live in England, and as you prolly know- ALL weapons , including nail clippers , are absotively banned -you can go to jail for carrying a pocket knife-seriously!

This also means that you cannot defend yourself against low lifes, burglars,
rapists, or muggers etc.

Pepper spray? I hear you say;Nope,forbidden by law-
The Government has really done a number on us.

But that's not the worst bit- half the population think this situation is a good thing, and applaud the Gov. "Guns are dangerous", they bleat

But every day, tv reports shootings and stabbings.

The unpalatable truth that the anti gun sheep ignore is that you are required to just roll over and die , since self defence is illegal.

So you see my dilemma-I cannot legally defend myself or my family-because I will go to prison if I injure in any way a BG- Farmer Tony Martin spent 5 years in the slammer for shooting an intruder.

I 've racked my brains to think of a way to protect me and mine, yet stay out of jail.
What would you guys do -(Don't say "Emigrate!"- I'm too old now,for that!)

[TennVOL]

Stout walking stick, or get a lanyard and hook your keys to one end and melt the other end in a ball. When you carry your keys leave the "ball" hanging out of your pocket. If needed you can grab the ball, pull the lanyard out and strike someone with a keyring full of keys. The ball keeps the lanyard from slipping out of your hand. My wife is from Scotland and we travel to the UK several times a year.

[Gunbabe]

My husband is from England (London) and has been here almost 5 years now. He does carry and is loves it. We are constantly amazed by the narrowminded views over there. I don't think there is anything to do. They tell you what to do or not to do and that is your only choice. I used to be against anyone and everyone owning guns but then I realized if I cross paths with the "bad guy" one day I want to be able to protect myself.

Good Luck!

[hso]

RB,

We've had long discussions about this with Fosbery and Boomstick, your fellow countrymen. Take a look at - http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=183743&highlight=britian&page=3 for ideas.

Remember that we've been killing and maiming each other for thousands of years before firearms came along. That means what's at hand has been used to lay our brothers low for longer than Mr. Colt tried to put them on a level killing field.

[CWL]

There are no laws against owning dogs in the UK.

Get yourself a good stout Shillelagh walking stick made out of blackthorne, or if that's a bit too "Irish" for you, how about a solid umbrella?

[Odd Job]

Where in the UK are you, Rusty?
And what is your residence: a flat, house, town or country?

[MatthewVanitas]

Get yourself a good stout Shillelagh walking stick made out of blackthorne

Wouldn't a bobby then accuse you of carrying a "bludgeon" or whatnot?

If memory serves, some UK members had mentioned that the cops take a very dim view of folks trying to get clever and carry canes and the like to use as possible weapons.

[Odd Job]

Wouldn't a bobby then accuse you of carrying a "bludgeon" or whatnot?
If memory serves, some UK members had mentioned that the cops take a very dim view of folks trying to get clever and carry canes and the like to use as possible weapons.

Well, if he does carry it and whacks a few chavs one day, I highly recommend that he sits down on the curb immediately thereafter and massages his aching knees (with a suitable witness looking on) ;)

[rusty bubbles]

ODD JOB-I'm from London , and I live in a semi in the suburbs

[Blade_Zero]

I wouldn't worry too much about shooters, that appears to be mostly drug related black on black. Strangely this phenomenon only developed after legal handgun ownership was banned.

Out in public, your options would be limited to non-dedicated devices, basically a mini maglite and a cane. If you're a young guy, it would be sensible to effect a limp when cops are around.

Inside your home, your probably better to just call the cops unless someone is in imminent danger, in that case, use something like a fire poker that could be expected to be around the home. Generally a burglar won't attack unless cornered.

[Gunbabe]

Blade_Zero you obviously haven't been to London, England. I haven't either but my husband (who yes is from there) says London is one of the worst areas. I don't agree with your comment about catoragizing who does the shooting or your last comment either. I don't think they love being told what to do or else why would he be here asking for options.

Rusty Bubbles I hope you get more help than this.

[rusty bubbles]

"You English are a funny lot, you just love rules and being told what to do. It looks like you have a law prohibiting almost everything."

You're right about being told what to do-bit it wasn't always so repressive-
When I was a boy, England was a free country-not the Orwellian nightmare it is now. it's "Bandit Country"-(You name it, they've banned it)

[Vonderek]

I knew a bloke over there who carried a round faucet handle like you find on an outdoor spigot (for some reason I can't think of the proper name). It was large enough to slip a few fingers through and was like a set of brass knucks.

[Gunbabe]

Wow! I'm sure whether the English try to do that or not it's far from an immediate method. He wants something now not ten years down the road.

[hso]

For our new members -

Here in non-firearms we deal with a lot of questions related to when carrying a gun isn't practical or permitted and what our options are for self defense. Poking members about the restrictions they live under (remember many in the U.S. live in cities with nearly the same restrictions as the U.K.) doesn't contribute to the conversation and should be kept out of the conversation.

He lives in the UK. He doesn't like that his country has disarmed the honest and would treat someone who defended themselves like criminals. He's not moving nor is he looking to roll over and pee on his belly. Got it? So, knock it off or suffer the consequences.:fire:

[rusty bubbles]

No way to change the law, Gunbabe- much as I would like to- Britain is a divided, even broken society,-and you know what they say about "A house divided"

Love to see "NRA Life member"

[Odd Job]

The problem is not only gang or drug related. Here are some incidents that I remember:

1) A guy and his girl-friend were on the bus, going home. A goblin sitting a few rows behind them, made lewd suggestions to the girl and also threw hot chips at her. The boyfriend told him to cut it out and the goblin stabbed the boyfriend, who died shortly thereafter.

2) A homeowner saw a group of teens vandalizing his car outside his house. He stepped outside and told them to cut it out. They knocked him down and beat him up. He died from head injuries.

3) A guy was driving in his car with his girlfriend or sister (I can't remember). They stopped at a light and two goblins walked by on the curb. One of them threw a half-eaten chocolate bar into the car, like it was a trashcan. The driver got out and shouted at the man, who then killed him (either stabbed him or shot him, can't recall).

There have been many cases where a home-owner has come out of his house to stop vandals from damaging his property, and he has been killed. Most are stabbed or kicked to death but there have been shootings too.

The biggest threat to the ordinary man in the street, especially in London and other big cities, is gangs of teenaged puke-bags running around causing mischief. They are really bold and carry sticks and rods in broad daylight. If the cops are called the kids ditch the sticks and nothing can be done. I have seen it right here in my street.
A guy was killed on my street corner by a gang of teenagers. They are dangerous.

[rusty bubbles]

Thanks all you guys for your kind help- and thanks HO and Babe for going to bat for me- but no offence taken from anyone.

rusty B.

[Gunbabe]

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I'm not the one that told you to change it. I've heard enough from my husband how things are there. I think you are just looking for an alternative which shows you are concerned for you and your family trying to find alternatives to as you said "defend myself or my family" which makes you a great family man in my book. I still hope you get at least one legit idea out of all this.

[mike101]

I like the stout cane idea. Or, how about a Cricket bat? Or, one of these -
http://csstoreonline.stores.yahoo.net/91wacx.html

Check out Coldsteel's website. They have some interesting products.

[Kingcreek]

ODD JOB, Hey, at least all of the 1) ,2) and 3) died without breaking the law.
My thoughts: which is more desirable? Being in total compliance with some laws or surviving a violent encounter?
I suggest Rusty Bubbles, or anyone else for that matter, do some soul searching and decide where the line will be drawn. I did- a long time ago. There are some situations where staying within the letter of the law is not as important as the outcome of our actions or reactions.
Your first and greatest weapon should be a strong will to survive. Without that, everything else is meaningless. With that, everything around you is a potential weapon.

edited for additional thoughts:
How to legally stay alive,UK?
It might not be possible. You might have to decide between LEGAL or ALIVE.

[hso]

rusty B.,

For us Americans, what's a "semi" and do you have a garden or yard that you maintain? Do you have a car or motorbike and do you do any maintenance on it?

[Fosbery]

Welcome to THR Rusty Bubbles,

Remember that self-defence in the UK IS legal. If you are being or reasonably expect to be attacked, you can defend yourself with reasonable force. If you fear for life or limb, you can kill your attacker whether you stab him or hit him or shoot him. People like Tony Martin only go to jail because they shoot burglars who are running away and refuse to apologise (he could have avoided jail if he wanted to and was not being attacked when he fired).

When looking at self-defence in the UK there are two distinct areas: your home and outside in public places.

At home, I would reccomend you get yourself a shotgun certificate and buy a three-shot (legal mag restriction) semi-auto 12 bore shotgun. A pump action or a double barrel one is fine too, but I'd reccomend a semi-auto myself (many others will disagree, however, it's up to you).

You will need to keep it locked up though. If you only buy the one gun, you can use a wall clamp or a chamber lock with a steel cable attached to the wall. You can also use (and will have to if you get more than one gun) a gun cabinet. Have a look at the different options in a shop and decide which one will allow you quickest access to the gun. As far as I know there's no rule against keeping it loaded, but chamber locks will prevent that. If you want, you can keep it loaded and unlocked, and this is not breaking the law, but you can have you certificate revoked. Some unscrupulous people have even been known to keep their guns unlocked and lying with some cleaning equipment so that, should police come around unexpectedly, they can say they were cleaning it.

Assuming you do keep it locked, I would suggest some kind of other weapon that will be at hand if you don't have time to reach your gun - sword, machete, bludgeon, spear, perhaps even a crossbow (I'm no expert).

Outside your own home, however, you will be unable to carry your shotgun (even if you wanted to). Here's some things off my top of the head which you might carry everyday that can be used as weapons:

Umbrella, cane or walking stick (bludgeon and some umbrellas can be stabbed with)
Sturdy pen or torch (both as striking and piercing weapons but a bright, tactical torch can also temporarily blind and disorientate)
Carabiner (knuckle duster)
Bike lock (flail)
Briefcase (strike with corners)
Rolled up magazine (strike with an end)
Book (hardback, or softback if you put it under tension)
Keys (especially a bunch on a line used as a flail, or a car key with a plastic handle used to stab with)
Roll of coins (strike with)
Wallet full of coins (make sure the coins won't fall out and that they are only in one half of the wallet, it can then be used like a sap)
Cigar tube (strike with)

Almost anything can make a useful weapon. Use your imagination. Remember though that it is an offence to carry ANYTHING specifically for use as a weapon. You must never carry anything for that purpose, but you can think about how you might use things that you carry anyway. Of course, if you decided to start carrying a Surefire torch and a Parker pen, and if you decided to carry an umbrella with a metal point on the slightest chance of it raining that day, they could hardly prove you did so because you wanted those items as a weapon - as long as you don't attack people, obviously.

Remember though that self-defence goes along way beyond neutralising your attacker, it also involves making sure that you never get attacked. Avoid rough areas, keep your eyes and ears open for trouble, take the car or a taxi if you can (even a bike will let you escape from trouble), make sure you puff up and look dangerous if you notice a possible threat, and so on and so forth.

Also consider self-defence classes and work out more (or start doing so).

Hope that helps some, stay safe.

There are no laws against owning dogs in the UK.

Actually there are. You cannot own:

Pit Bull Terriers
Tosa
Dogo Argentino
Fila Brasileiro

For us Americans, what's a "semi"

Semi-detached house. Many (if not most) houses in the UK are actually two houses that share a common wall. See here:

http://www.leeshaw.co.uk/uploads/4294702_6.jpg

It would suggest a suburban area.

[SDC]

Another handy "improvised" item you can use is one of those large climbing carabiners as a keychain fob; they keep your keys together, and can be used as "brass knuckles" (well, "aluminium knuckles") if the need arises.

[hso]

Thanks for the explanation of a "semi".

On the street you can carry one of Fred Perrin's Sap Coin Wallets (http://www.bladecraft.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=153). Fill with coins and strike to the appropriate spot to quiet a confrontation. Add an "unbreakable" umbrella (http://www.real-self-defense.com/umbrella.html) and some training. http://www.real-self-defense.com/videos/umbrella_tests_340Kbps.wmv

At home garden implements can be used. Decorative spears from trips to Africa might be pressed into service. Hammers, wrenches, bug spray, etc.

[Fosbery]

hso,

I fear that Fred Perrin's wallet would be illegal to carry in the UK as it is designed to be a weapon. Therefore it is an 'offensive weapon' and thus illegal to carry, though it is legal to own.

[Blade_Zero]

Sorry about the slightly provocative "you English" remark, no offense was intended, just an off the cuff thing.

Actually, I have been to London, what I said was MOST gun crime was drug related black on black, which it is. The TV show Ross Kemp on gangs London episode will confirm this. It's available on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ross+Kemp+London+Special

That still leaves a lot of thugery that is not black on black, more a case of wrong place wrong time e.g "happy slapping" or interupting criminal acts. Being attacked by teenage gangs is definately a SD challenge, your odds of prevailing against multiple attackers are not good.

[Warren]

For outside I'd say start with a good pair of steel toed boots in case you need to stomp or kick.

In an inside jacket pocket you could carry a pair of metal chopsticks, if you are ever questioned you could say you are on your way to a Chinese restaurant. Females could just do up their hair with them and likely draw no notice at all.

Carry a metal bodied yo-yo with high test fising line as the string. Yo-yo by day...thugwhacker by night.

A looong time ago on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson there was this little old man who based a whole system of self-defense around the use of a short wooden dowel. I believe he called it Defense-o and he did amazing things with that rod. I cannot find anything on it know but there might be a similar fighting style in other disciplines. The beauty of it is your main weapon is easy to dispose of if needed and does not look out of place rolling around in your car. New ones are easy to get and would fit easily in a jacket pocket.

For in the home, along with the shotgun you might go with a large bore airgun and maybe some black powder weapons. I don't know how controlled those are there though.

[Blade_Zero]

Here is some video demonstration of my two suggestions for public self defense in a non-permissive environment. Any kind of dedicated or marketed sap, be it wallet, glove or cap, would be considered an offensive weapon. i.e. illegal.

Mini Maglite (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuqGzWT3E7Q)

Defensive Cane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2XL_iQgJnc)

[CZ.22]

Listerine makes a duhicky called the Pocketmist. Its basically a thing of Listerine you shoot, kinda like bug spray, into your mouth. I hit a guy in the eyes with a blast once (at a school dance, as a dare, yeah I know it was stupid) aand it mde him cry. Much easier to explain than a can of bug/carb cleaning/whatever spray.
http://www.pfizerch.com/uploadedImages/brand/Listerine_PocketMist/LPM_brandcontent.jpg
Also- cane, flashlight, umbrella, pocketknife? (don't know about legality) "Lucky Charm" (piece of heavy jewelry/metal on a lenth of cord[think rosary, necklace, etc] to use as flail), keys, pens (a good, thick fountain pen can do the trick) backpack, runnin weight, mandolin/ukelele/guitar/violin (whichever you can carry easiest, and only if you play it), large mobile, CD, iPod, laptop, magazine, book, briefcase, ruler, protractor, compass.
I've given a good deal of thought to self defense in school, you might be able to tell.

[woodybrighton]

I suggest a maglite


or if you have more cash http://www.airsportdirect.com/acatalog/CP99Compact.html#a120
18 rounds of .177 pellets to the face will hurt
and then batter the git with a baseball bat
you won't get a shot gun cert for home defence or even if you mention home defence
you can't carry a weapon for self defence though if you cycle a 6 foot length of heavy chain with a heacy padlock at the end is allowed:evil:

[hso]

Airsoft for self defense has been discussed here and in S&T before and discounted as a viable self defense option (we have many folks who are into Airsoft and who use Airsoft for FOF training {me included}). Fine for running the fuzzy tailed squirrels off the garden, not so good for goblins in the house.

[woodybrighton]

there not airsoft
there metal pellets diffrent level of hurt
quite accurate shot in the face with it your going to hospital.
while he's bleeding you then batter him with the baseball bat :D
in the uk it illegal to own a handgun for self defense
you could own a black powder handgun but keeping it locked and loaded would put you in a world of hurt

[CWL]

woodybrighton,
I have read that the Brittish police were having quite a problem with posers carrying fake handguns and flashing them in pubs and clubs. I don't know what the penatlies are but I think that anyone would have ample justification for stomping someone into the ground if they pulled-out a fake gun.
We call these things BB-guns and while I have seen them penetrate deeply into soft skin, we used to have wars with them as kids wearing nothing more than T-shirts and hoodies.

In terms of using a CO2 fired BB gun for SD, I don't think that it would stop a determined or drunk person from attacking -and no one is going to stand there and let you empty 18 BBs in the face.

I would choose stick (cane) over a BB gun. I'd choose my belt & buckle over a BB gun.

[woodybrighton]

most armed crime in the UK is actually carried out with replicas some are converted to fire live ammo police treat any one on the street in public with anything that looks gun like as live and have killed people :mad:
oh though I heard of one cretin who was arrested for robbing a shop "don't worry officer its a replica he actually had a real loaded handgun and did'nt know it :eek:"
a scary looking realistic air pistol might persuade somebody to back if not shoot them with then batter them a baseball bat:(
though the old martini henry rifle is legal to own and all the components to make bullets are legal as well
just putting them together would be very wrong but if your that parnoid even
charging zulu's got stopped by that
but thats very very illegal

[CZ.22]

oh and as SM says software over hardware

[Dirty Bob]

rusty bubbles:

You have my sympathy over the rising crime in what has been one of the great cities in the Western world. It's not your fault, but let's see what you can legally do to protect yourself.

Any tool that multiplies force (hammer, large wrench -- spanner?, pry bar, etc.) can be used as a weapon. They are, of course, also of use in many households. We keep a small ball peen in the kitchen drawer, for example, to hang pictures and for other tasks (the hangers are in there, too). It would, however, be an extremely potent weapon, especially with the round part of the hammer head as the striking surface. Claw hammers with straight claws are quite vicious, too.

One of the meanest (yet invisible) weapons I've seen in a home is a large, square, heavy glass ashtray. You don't need to be a smoker: you're a good host and may have a guest who smokes (even if you ask them to carry the ashtray outside with them). Grab one corner and strike with one of the other corners. The heavy ashtray could do a lot of damage, yet it can sit on a table in plain sight. You could even throw it at an intruder. I'd put one in every room.

Oven cleaner and poison for killing wasps and hornets are both useful. The insect spray that we buy is a foam and has lengthy warnings on the can about eye damage. It can be sprayed several feet with fair accuracy. A faceful of that would be quite horrible, I imagine. We keep it around because the wasps have built nests on the side of our house. I've destroyed maybe a dozen nests in the past few months.

A light chair is a great weapon, if used with enthusiasm and aggression. Hold the back and jab fast and hard with the legs. Very difficult to block or avoid. If you're strong, you can throw it. Marc "Animal" MacYoung once observed that there's no good way to catch a chair.

I like a cane or a small flashlight in public. Look for yawara or kubotan information on the Web to find out how to use the light. The Mini MagLite was designed for this use. I'm fairly young (45) and healthy, but I've had injuries, and I carry a cane when out on foot. If my knee or ankle acts up, I'll need it to get home. I don't fake a limp, but I don't run or wave the cane around or anything. In the politically correct 21st century US, no one dares ask questions about a disability, but I'm ready to talk about my knee pain. A plain, sturdy, one-piece, crook-top cane is probably the least likely to cause suspicion.

Never forget books and metal clipboards. They can be used for both blocking and striking, yet no one seems to notice them. Not ideal, but a surprise shot to the face with the edge or corner of a book or clipboard would hurt!

Cups, mugs and bottles can also be used, as can full cans of food, soda or beer (though I'd hate to waste a good beer). The 8-ounce Coke cans that are sold here are fairly easy to throw. A few cans in the bottom of a heavy cloth shopping bag could be very effective.

It's all about momentum and striking surfaces, such as corners or edges. If you look around, almost anything is a weapon. I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Dirty Bob

[Agouti]

You could just pose as a carpenter and carry an Estwing.

Best hammers out there, it seems.

[Matt_W]

Sec 1 of the Prevention of Crime Act makes it an offence to object designed, adapted or intended to cause injury without lawful authority or a reasonable excuse.

The Courts have decided that 'self defence' does not count as a reasonable excuse. If you carry ANYTHING and admit that it is being carried for self defence then the police will charge you.

Case law does allow you to arm yourself in response to an immediate and particular threat and claim a reasonable excuse defence however.

Lawful Authority has never been tested in the Courts and should include the authority granted by the 1688 Bill of Rights. The Police actually dont have any extra specific lawful authority to carry batons etc over and above the private citizen (I have that in writing from the Home Office)

Bottom line is that if you feel the need to arm yourself then you should do so because the law is not as restrictive as the Authorities would have you believe.

[Loucks]

most armed crime in the UK is actually carried out with replicas some are converted to fire live ammo

Really? I thought that was a myth. I haven't handled any of the replica firearms in question, but I was under the impression that it would be easier to construct a firearm from scratch than successfully convert one.

[hso]

Louks,

I'm under the same impression you are. Perhaps "replica" has a different meaning here than there (...separated by a common language).


Woodybrighton,

Please define what you're referring to as a replica and how it is being converted to fire live ammo.

Just so you understand our skepticism, in the U.S. and Canada replicas can not be converted to fire live ammo. The working part of a firearm has to be built from scratch and housed in a replica to allow it to fire live ammo (and then it is a dangerous proposition for the idiot wielding it).

[Fosbery]

hso,

There is a very large myth surrounding the conversion of imitation firearms to fire live ammunition. Replica is a term commonly used to refer to what are essentially fake guns, but in law they are 'imitation firearms' and 'realistic imitation firearms' (depending on whether they look like a real gun or not as opposed to, say, a water pistol), as 'replica' could be construed to mean, say, an Uberti Colt Walker.

The most common thing converted to fire live ammo in the UK is the Brockock line of .22 airpistols. They can have their cylinders drilled out to take .22 rimfire cartridges but there are still a number of problems: the cylinder is not designed to handle the pressures of a rimfire cartridge and is prone to exploding, the barrel is smoothebore so you'll have a hard time hitting anything beyond 10 feet and the live cartridges are restricted to FAC holders so you would need to find an illegal source. In addition, airguns of this type (air cartridge systems) have recently been banned so you can't even legally get the gun to begin with. Of course, that doesn't stop criminals!

A lot of 'conversions' are also done on deactivated or blank firing guns. In these cases it involves entirely replacing the innards, including barrel. Only a gunsmith could do it but there's plenty of those in the criminal underworld. It does save time on building things like the reciever and trigger group though.

Blank firers are often made of plastic and so also prone to exploding when used with real ammunition. Out-the-front blank firers have been illegal in the UK for some time, so they must eject their gases out the side, making conversions even harder on legal guns. Again, illegal ones are easy to get.

Airsoft guns and conventional airguns though, it would genuinely be easier to build an entirely new gun than to convert them to live ammunition.

All realistic immitation firearms are now illegal to transfer in the UK, but there is an exemption for airsoft skirmishers, historical reenactment groups, performing arts groups etc. It would be pretty easy to become one of these for the purposes of buying one, or simply to acquire one illegally.

Airguns remain legal, as do deactivated firearms.

I wouldn't like to guess at what proportion of gun crime is done with ex-imitations. There is certainly a large amount of crime with honest-to-god firearms.

[hso]

I wonder what percentage of crimes in the UK are committed with converted replicas that have to be converted by criminal gunsmiths when firearms and firearms components could be smuggled into the country by sea and tunnel by less skilled criminals.

I can see converting a black powder Uberti to fire cartridges, much like ball and cap revolvers were converted to cartridge guns in the 1800s in the US by blacksmiths all over the country as a practical exercise, but I don't get it as a criminal exercise when a cheap semiauto using 9mm should be dead easy to get from criminal channels.

[Fosbery]

I suspect one reason is the reduced risk. When importing guns illegaly there is a chance of getting caught (though to be honest I don't see hoe they would ever find a stripped handgun amongst a box of machine parts). When converting things in a workshop you don't have to worry so much. Another is that to import covertly requires foreign contacts. You cannot just mail order a gun from an American dealer, you will get caught. You would need someone to buy a gun outside the country, preferably illegally to avoid registration and so on, strip it down, box it up, and send it labelled as something else. It would require contacts and coordination and trust and so on. Anyone can start converting Brockocks in their garden shed and any gunsmith can start converting deacs.

[hso]

Makes sense.

[rusty bubbles]

Blimey! I had assumed this thread had run its course a couple days ago-and only logged on today by chance.
It's heart-warming ,the help and useful advice I've got from you guys-But what it always comes down to, is GUNS

. In the home-the police can not know what weapons you have, as a law abider, so you have a choice -shoot and be jailed, or roll over and die.

However, You CANNOT CARRY a firearm, the great equalizer, and deterrent
(In London, police at some subway stations do random checks for weapons)

Yet the most common danger. is outside the home, in the streets and in the subway, the parks- wherever muggers ,BGs or psycopaths see a chance to "start preying"- hence the dilemma I spoke of .

But reading the posts,I learn that I'm not alone in this, many US citizens are in the same boat it seems, in some states, and are just as defenceless on the street
I must stop being such a pain in the butt.

Thanks for all your help and advice though- it's nice to have friends!

Rusty B.

[LanEvo`]

Umbrella, cane or walking stick (bludgeon and some umbrellas can be stabbed with)
Sturdy pen or torch (both as striking and piercing weapons but a bright, tactical torch can also temporarily blind and disorientate)
Carabiner (knuckle duster)
Bike lock (flail)
Briefcase (strike with corners)
Rolled up magazine (strike with an end)
Book (hardback, or softback if you put it under tension)
Keys (especially a bunch on a line used as a flail, or a car key with a plastic handle used to stab with)
Roll of coins (strike with)
Wallet full of coins (make sure the coins won't fall out and that they are only in one half of the wallet, it can then be used like a sap)
Cigar tube (strike with)I would add a length of stout string, like some paracord...or a shoelace. Of course, you'd have to get behind your assailant to put it to good use. But it's a nice alternative to striking tools, especially if you're in an enclosed space (e.g., the backseat of a car).

[LanEvo`]

However, You CANNOT CARRY a firearm, the great equalizer, and deterrent
(In London, police at some subway stations do random checks for weapons)It's funny how so many otherwise educated people seem to be unable to grasp the (hardly subtle!) distinction between an illegally owned firearm in the hands of a criminal vs. a legally owned firearm in the hands of a law-abiding citizen.

But reading the posts,I learn that I'm not alone in this, many US citizens are in the same boat it seems, in some states, and are just as defenceless on the streetSadly, you are correct. All my life I have lived in places where I have been barred from exercising my constitutionally protected right to carry a firearm: New Jersey, New York City, Boston, and the Washington D.C. area. It's no use having civil rights if you're not allowed to actually USE them!

However, I have always been allowed to at least carry chemical sprays and folding knives. But even then there have been restrictions! No knives over 2.5" in Boston, for example. Still, a 2.5" folder is better than bare hands.

[Blade_Zero]

Converted replicas could only be reasonably expected to withstand .22lr ammo, it is possible to convert the brocock replica revolver to .22lr. It's not very attractive to criminals though.

Re-activated guns are a far more viable option for gangs, a few years ago 2 black girls were gunned down in the UK by a re-activated MAC-10.

Live firearms are imported via the same channels as narcotics, often in the same shipment. Eastern Europe is awash with guns, cash strapped Serbian gun factories have produced sterile micro-uzi's for this very market.

[broadsideofabarn]

*sorry, accidental double post*

[broadsideofabarn]

The problem is not only gang or drug related. Here are some incidents that I remember:

1) A guy and his girl-friend were on the bus, going home. A goblin sitting a few rows behind them, made lewd suggestions to the girl and also threw hot chips at her. The boyfriend told him to cut it out and the goblin stabbed the boyfriend, who died shortly thereafter.

2) A homeowner saw a group of teens vandalizing his car outside his house. He stepped outside and told them to cut it out. They knocked him down and beat him up. He died from head injuries.

3) A guy was driving in his car with his girlfriend or sister (I can't remember). They stopped at a light and two goblins walked by on the curb. One of them threw a half-eaten chocolate bar into the car, like it was a trashcan. The driver got out and shouted at the man, who then killed him (either stabbed him or shot him, can't recall).

There have been many cases where a home-owner has come out of his house to stop vandals from damaging his property, and he has been killed. Most are stabbed or kicked to death but there have been shootings too.

The biggest threat to the ordinary man in the street, especially in London and other big cities, is gangs of teenaged puke-bags running around causing mischief. They are really bold and carry sticks and rods in broad daylight. If the cops are called the kids ditch the sticks and nothing can be done. I have seen it right here in my street.
A guy was killed on my street corner by a gang of teenagers. They are dangerous.

Well, that's put a new twist on my interest in the BBC's job listings. :uhoh:

Hey, just my "mad scientist" tendencies getting a bit loose here, but hypothetically, if the ONLY way to be secure would be by breaking UK law, what about a rimfire umbrella? Fully suppressed? Everything nicely concealed? Are Britons similar sheeple to most Americans who'd give you plenty of time to casually stroll away from a dead goblin before they'd even called the authorities?

Not a suggestion, but a thought. :D

[mike101]

Someone suggested this on THR a few days ago. Loop some nylon lanyard cord through a guard rail nut. Or, you could order a real flail from Dixie Gun Works.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/popup_image.php?pID=8274&osCsid=dc355bb75a409fdda5b1ecd53b37ee58

[Matt_W]

On private property ANY weapon is legal, firearms need the relevant Certificates.

[Fosbery]

Matt_W,

I appreciate what I think you were trying to say, but I think it needs some clarification:

It is legal to defend yourself with ANY weapon no matter what. You can legally defend yourself, even with an illegal gun. I think this has actually happened before.

But there are things which it is illegal to own. Guns without the correct certificate is one, but shotguns in particular are so easy to get that anyone interested in defending themselves should have one. There are also some things which you cannot buy or in some cases own pretty much full stop. You cannot own:

Stun guns
Tasers
Pepper spray, mace etc
(these are all classed as section 5 firearms which require permission of the Home Secretary to own)

You cannot buy, rent, leese, borrow, lend, sell, give, import, cause to be imported or make, but CAN own:

Butterfly knives
Belt-buckle knives
Concealed knives (e.g. knives that look like pens)
Knives that are invisible to metal detectors, except for those used in food preparation
Automatic knives
Push-daggers, except for those used in food preparation
Sword canes
Expanding batons
(these are specifically named offensive weapons which can be owned but not transferred. I believe the Home Secretary can exempt certain people from the law e.g. the police. Anything can be an offensive weapon is made, adapted or intended to be used as a weapon, but only these named items are illegal to transfer))

[Odd Job]

Broadside

I have long been saying that England (and possibly the UK in general) is going to the Chavs. The populace is brimming with apathy and a general lack of whatever 'stuff' existed in the past to make Great Britain truly Great.
This is the rot from within. This is us being shackled by the whims of our neighbours. It is us vs the majority.
And that is what is so sad.

[mike101]

Are you sure you don't live in New Jersey? :D

[Odd Job]

Anyway, before I forget, I must recommend and echo the suggestion of getting a crossbow if you don't want to get any licenses.
It is great fun at the range and much better than a dirty look if someone breaks in.

[CK]

Is slingshot a viable option?

[Warren]

Okay, say he got a crossbow what kind of point would be best?

[Matt_W]

Thanks for expanding for me. Just one minor point though;

(these are specifically named offensive weapons which can be owned but not transferred. I believe the Home Secretary can exempt certain people from the law e.g. the police. Anything can be an offensive weapon is made, adapted or intended to be used as a weapon, but only these named items are illegal to transfer))

The Home Sec does not actually have the power to excempt anyone. The exemptions are contained only within the legislation.

As far as SD purposes are concerned (police included) the 'Purposes of the Crown' exemption comes into play.

Preventing breaches of the peace and defence of the Realm are functions carried out on behalf of the Crown BTW.

[Odd Job]

Okay, say he got a crossbow what kind of point would be best?

Well, unless I am very much mistaken, he would get into a lot of trouble if he used a broadhead on an intruder. I seem to recall that those are taboo. I don't know if it applies to the expanding broadheads also. If it doesn't, that's what I would go for.
The problem will be the issue of intent. A guy sitting at home waxing the string of his crossbow in front of the TV will attract a lot less scrutiny if he shoots the intruder with a field tip, which just so happens to be what he uses at the local range or archery club.
If he uses a broadhead, there might be raised eyebrows or mutterings of 'Allo, allo...whats all this then? Do you use these broadheads at the range? If not, why do you have them?'
That's the logic that they use.

[Warren]

Just a simple tip? Would that stop someone? It might kill or incapacitate them at some point but will it do the job in the next 3-5 seconds.

[Odd Job]

I suppose it would depend on where the guy was hit.

[Lew]

I don't have any other suggestions, but I did want to say "welcome" to Rusty, so, welcome. And for Heaven's sake, good luck. Best advice on here is to do your very best to avoid trouble, and make sure you have a reason for whatever you decide to carry.

Stay safe. It's shameful, human to human, how bad it's gotten there.

Oh, and I've got some liberals (er, that's socialists to you) with whom I'd like you to have a word and explain reality. Actually, that's not fair. They come from both sides now; make that anti-rights people!

[JaxNovice]

Here is the $64,000 question: What has happened to UK violent crime rates since the ban on weapons (specifically the handgun ban)?

[broadsideofabarn]

Actually, that's not fair. They come from both sides now; make that anti-rights people!

Amen. :banghead:

[woodybrighton]

Here is the $64,000 question: What has happened to UK violent crime rates since the ban on weapons (specifically the handgun ban)?

the hand gun ban and violent crime have nothing to do with one another period
YOU COULDN'T OWN A HANDGUN FOR SELF DEFENSE SINCE THE 1940'S
LESS THAN 1% OF THE POPULATION OWNED HAND GUNS.
THEY COULDN'T CARRY OR EVEN KEEP ONE LOADED AT HOME. so absolutely no effect on crime one way or the other and if the police had done there job hamilton the nut job would'nt have had his weapons:mad:

stats on violent crimes make about as much sense as anti gun propaganda .
rise in gun crime is more about semi organized criminal gangs and drugs than the ability of normal people to defend themselves

[Fosbery]

Though for the record, violent crime in Britain has fallen quite dramatically since the handgun ban (it had been falling for two years previously), but at the same time deaths and injuries from the illegal use of handguns has doubled.

Odd_Job,

I wouldn't worry about using broadheads. There's nothing illegal about them or about keeping them in your home for the purposes of defending yourself. What type of ammunition used might only become an issue if it went to trial, which is unlikely, or if one of the officers who came into contact with you was a crossbow/archery nut, also unlikely. That might make it more likely to go to trial but they can't convict you of anything for it. So long as you feared for life and limb and didn't have any illegal items, you're in the clear.

[Dirty Bob]

If you didn't want to use a broadhead, I think I'd use a small game blunt or a field tip. The field tip might go through bone, and an arrow or bolt sticking out of a person almost certainly would have a psychological impact on them. On the other hand, a field tip might well give a through-and-through penetration, while a blunt would transfer all of its force into a small area. The blunt would not likely be fatal, though, unless the person was hit in the head or neck, although it might break a bone and would give the world's most spectacular welt and perhaps some penetration, depending on the strength of the crossbow.

If you do get a crossbow, practice chest or shoulder cocking, where you place the butt against yourself and haul back on the string. I can do this with a 150 lb. bow, but not with anything stronger. It's not a lot of fun, but it's a lot faster than using a stirrup or cocking device.

You should also practice! Target archery of any flavor is a lot of fun, and a good excuse to get outdoors. Membership in a club would also help explain the crossbow, and it would give you greater confidence in your abilities.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

[Warren]

How about a spear gun? That way you can grab the line and yank the dude about if he is still trying to rush at you.

[doc jake]

It’s been said many times in other postings on here, but basically it’s what you have between your ears not in your hands that matters most.

I travel every week to major cities in the whole of the UK as part of my job. Because I’m a Northumbrian (Boarder County) I refuse to pay for expensive hotels, this means I see the more “interesting localities”, If it looks wrong walk away.

In all the case’s stated in this discussion so far death or serious injure only occurred when the victim confronted multiple goblins in defence of property or honour. Personal I don’t consider these good enough reasons to risk my life. I have general plans for getting out of trouble when travelling alone and with my family and yes we have discussed / practised them.

It could be my age, but I regularly carry a key chain, min-mag light (just bought a surefire but not carrying it in case I drop it) Leatherman tool and have never had a problem with the police.

[feedthehogs]

It seems its already been established that a shot gun is easy to get and use for self defense in the home.

Beyond the home carrying something that they would designate as an offensive type of weapon is illegal.

Over here sissors are a common item. My wife and both daughters carry a pair in their purses for cutting threads that could pull out stiching on a garment and for general purpose. What about that?

Anyone with a job that requires any type of repairs usually has a tool belt. Screw drivers work well as a weapon.

My dad wore a pocket protector with a 4" phillips and flat blade screw drivers clipped on. A 4" poke to the eye will render someone out.

A metal pen and pencil set, ie cross, in the pocket protector makes a nice weapon also.

This along with some self defense training would work well to defend most attackers.

There is no magic solution.

[Odd Job]

@ Fosbery

Hmmmm, I need to check the laws again, somehow I was under the impression that broadheads are taboo.

As to whether the tip is blunt or not, I guarantee that even a completely filed down tip will penetrate a human (at least it will if fired from my crossbow). There is no such thing as a less-lethal bolt from that bow, unless you are talking about chilled liquorice sticks. Crossbow bolts have impressive penetration.

As to the guy with the speargun suggestion: they don't do very well out of water. Don't ask me how I know, I just know.

[woodybrighton]

broad heads are available for cross bows but not proper bows
rubber tip blunts are available

[Fosbery]

On a more practical note, re defense on the street--how about a small jar or box, or two or three, of finely powdered Cayenne pepper? A faceful of that should be almost as effective as pepper spray, no?

You cannot carry ANYTHING for the purpose of being a weapon. If you happen to be carrying some cayenne pepper, then yes by all means use it as pepper spray... but can you prove to a policeman that you were not carrying that jar of pepper specifically to throw at people?

[walking arsenal]

Do they sell Surefires over there?

My E2D is my last ditch self defense item. It literally goes everywhere with me. I cant think of a place it isn't allowed.

Its just a flashlight with nasty bits for pain compliance. Maybe you could get away with that? I dunno.

Seems you have a self defense problem there thats all wonky. Danged if you do, danged if you dont.

[Fosbery]

The Surefire Defender series are illegal to carry because they are designed to be weapons. Ordinary Surefires can be carried (provided you don't intend them to be weapons) and would serve well as kubatons if attacked.

[walking arsenal]

Well then, sounds like your buggered then. I've got nothing else.

[wheelgunslinger]

Yep. Everyone was so vehemently passing laws to ban this and that "for the children," that they left their older folks completely defenseless.
How shameful for them.

[TheLaxPlayer]

While I know little of laws in the UK, it seems to me that while in the home there wouldn't be a law against having a large kitchen knife nearby. I can't add any input as to what should be carried outside however.

[Arcticfox]

There are no laws against owning dogs in the UK

I second that! Get a German sheppard. They are not only a great defensive weapon, but also a deterrent!

[Irwin]

Unfortunetly there is a law against keeping certain dogs its called the dangerous dogs act.

[Odd Job]

The other thing is, many people don't have the space to keep a dog. They have these tiny postage stamp gardens and terraced housing. My opinion is that if you are going to have a sizable dog, he deserves some space to run, he deserves a proper yard.

[woodybrighton]

the dangerous dog act applies to pit bulls and a few other breeds though is a badly worded pile of toss though not quite as bad as the anti fox hunting law:D

[hopkin]

I have some Stoppa spray - red dye stuff - and it's great, although a bit pricey. I've seen it used on chavs trying to pinch someone's bike and they squealed like girls when sprayed with it. Perfectly legal.

I also carry a mini maglight and have smacked a drunk with it once when he grabbed my collar and, well, I think he was trying to kiss me. Hold it with thumb over the lens and use the base to hit. The police turned up 10 seconds later and didn' care about the torch after realising it wasn't a D cell. I have a 3 D cell maglight by my front door, a good tool for whacking a scrote over the head.

I'm thinking of buying one of the 80 lumen+ torches which are good for temporarily blinding someone. www.usmcpro.com

[Fosbery]

Yes you can get 'Bouncer Spray' which is a foul smelling spray that covers skin and clothing with a UV sensetive dye. The dye is good for convicting criminals after the act but that will only deter them if they know what the obscure item is. The foul smell is supposed to be suprisingly effective but certainly it's not as good as pepper spray. I should think it would buy you a second or two or scare of casual criminals, but not stop a determined attacker. An individual size can is £12 ($24).

http://www.vestguard.co.uk/bouncer-spray/vestguard-bouncer-spray.htm

Bodyarmour is also a realistic option. A stab resistent vest would greatly improve your chances against an attacker armed with a knife (you'd probably want a covert one!).

For sturdy torches that can be used as kubatons, I'd reccomend Heinnie Haynes:

http://heinnie.com/

They do sell the Defender series from Surefire, which are fine for around the home but NOT in public. Stick to smooth or scalloped bezels, avoid crenellations. The Surefire E2E which is bright enough to blind with a good grip, pocket clip and sturdy enough to strike with, is £90 ($180). An AA Mini Maglite is a tenner. An alternative would be the Fenix P3D which is much bright than the the Surefire (which is much brighter than the Maglite) but lacks a momentary-on function. It's just as rugged and is only £40 ($80).

http://www.glowgadgets.co.uk/fenix-p3d-luxeon-rebel-100-flashlight-premium-led-torch.ir?cName=1-flashlights-torches

For in-car protection (car jacking is getting more common), try the Life Hammer:

http://www.shop.edirectory.co.uk/auto_unique/1270/moreinfosu/d/lite+hammer/pid/1658164

£15 for the above 'lite' version or £10 for the original ($30 and $20 respectively).

[Matt_W]

Over here sissors are a common item. My wife and both daughters carry a pair in their purses for cutting threads that could pull out stiching on a garment and for general purpose. What about that?

One man was convicted for carry a 'point or bladed object in a public place' - the item in question was the blade from a butter knife (minus handle BTW) - the Court ruled that it is not their job to decide on how sharp or how pointed a 'bladed or pointed' object needed to be to come within the remit of the Legislation! They ruled that if the object in question had a 'blade' even one without an edge it was unlawful to carry in public without lawful authority or a reasonable excuse.

Fosberry - I have it on good authority that the Bouncer spray is not very effective because the smell leaks over time and the range is quite short and the spray affected by the slightest breeze, and there are better alternatives available, some made specifically for the UK market by MACE in fact.

Also if such a spray uses a nasty smell to have an effect on the attacker, it will not be long before some hotshot at the CPS will come up with an argument that says that the nasty smell is in fact a 'noxious thing' and the Courts will likely rule that they are Sec 5 1 b weapons after all.

And if all else fails you can always carry one of these (http://www.stoppa.co.uk/acatalog/Batons.html) 100% legal and beyond question in 99.99% of situations. I would say that the only time the Police would be able to build a case against you for carrying one is if you were actually threatening or brandishing it as a weapon at the material time.

[Warren]

Do they have enough rain to explain a near constant carrying of an umbrella?

If so that would be a great thing to have handy.

[Stainz]

Well, a LOUD noise - like from a compressed gas pocketable can 'air horn' may be a momentary deterrent. They can certainly be attention getters. At least you may gain a witness or two...

We live on the outskirts of Birmingham. My wife thought my daily decision of which to pocket carry - an Airlite .44 Special or .38 Special - was unnecessary. That changed last week when a 20yr old college student, working part-time with her, was car-jacked at a four-way stop on the way home from work. The two attackers forced him out of the car and one attempted to execute him with a head shot from a small pistol. He struggled, saving his life, but incurring four gushot wounds; neck, arm, stomach, and thigh. He was blessed - no vital organ/nerve damage - no sepsis - he will make a full recovery. Within the last few years, there was a home invasion that cost the elderly couple their lives - and four Mexicans were shot - executed - by three black competitors in the local drug trade. This was all within two miles of my home - in a once very quiet residential suburb of Birmingham - Alabama, of course.

Fortunately, it is relatively easy to get a 'carry' permit here. Even a Canadian citizen friend legally bought a .45 - and got the sheriff to issue him a carry permit. My wife and I just got back from our pre-dawn walk. I felt naked - only a knife, ID, and flashlight (The gym short pockets are too-small for a .38!). Still, what if I was in NY or NJ... much less, England??

Stainz

[K9 PO]

I've been lurking for a bit but definitely felt the need to contribute to this thread. I'm appalled that the British government would so radically restrict the rights of their citizens but I guess I can understand the mindset of a government that caters to the radical Islamic cause.

That being said, I have some suggestions. Various weapons have been covered here so I won't dilute the pool anymore. Remember, the most important thing in ANY dangerous encounter is your mindset. You need to adopt a Malcolm X mindset e.g. Any means necessary. You are in the fight for your life so don't be afraid to use your hands, teeth in addition to whatever object you have to win the fight. If you need to pull hair or bite testicles well you do it.

I've always found screaming like a madman while engaged in a fight helps. Best of luck to all of you. Stay safe!

[hopkin]

K9 PO, I think you're mistaken about who is restricting rights. The push is largely coming from 'concerned citizens', the kind of person who'd be called a soccer mom in the USA. Ban everything for the sake of the children. This is a big part of the problem - so many people WANT to ban everything in the hope it will go away. I'm sure you know the mindset, people who think everything potentially dangerous is a weapon and having them must lead to a crazed rampage. In my opinion that's worse than a government doing it to an apathetic public (but not as bad as doing it to a largely unsupportive public).

In my local community the most rabid anti-gun campaigners are often the parents of teens who have been convicted of a serious gun crime. They blame the guns since that takes some guilt away from their precious little darlings. Same with knives, drunk driving and so on.

[Colt46]

They are about the only ones that shouldn't fear for their safety.

[hso]

I've emailed the folks that make the Mosquito to ask if they have plans to manufacture a battery powered portable that would have a variable output from 85 dB to nearly 140 dB to use as a personal protection device. The idea being that lower power output would be used to deter interest in you while the higher power would be loud enough to people under 25 to make it painful for them to stay close to you. I'll let ya'll know what their response is.

[Fosbery]

Matt_W that spray looks interesting. I might have to get some and see how it works...

hso, I fear that such a device would be illegal to carry in the UK. If it is designed to cause pain then it could be ruled to be an offensive weapon.

[hso]

I got a reply back from them. Nope, not planning to either.

Thank you for your email.

This is something we have looked at, however, it is not practical. Why would you want something that only works on kids. There are rape alarms on the market that everyone can hear and are well over 120 dB.

Kind regards,

Si


I guess he doesn't realize that a lot of "random" violent crimes are committed by young men between the age of 16 and 25 (if not the vast majority) and that such a device might serve as a non-lethal alternative.

[woodybrighton]

the UK is uber safe the gov is just about to outlaw airsoft guns :confused:
because that will make life so much safer

[hopkin]

"hso, I fear that such a device would be illegal to carry in the UK. If it is designed to cause pain then it could be ruled to be an offensive weapon."

The portable alarms on sale for sale as attack/rape alarms are about 130db-140db, easily enough to cause pain if held near someone's ear. Since they're sold to attract attention and not to hurt someone, they are legal but useful if you want a loud noise.

I don't have much faith in these as a colleague got mugged while using one. The guy just slapped it out her hand and was off with her bag before anyone came to see what the noise was about.

[chorlton]

The best I could ever come up with was a sturdy umbrella and a tightly rolled magazine (you'd be surprised), and a few years of TKD. At home you have other objects that might happen to be lying around, but still you have to consider "reasonable force".

[Pax Jordana]

I'd say, for anyone of relatively able body, look into WWII combatives (ours... or yours.. both I would deem sufficient from my limited experience.) Emphasis on sticks, canes and umbrellas, relatively simple, and cheap shots come first and foremost!

Unfortunately, for you older or infirm fellows, my only advice would be to leave as much money as you can in your will for a lawsuit, or donation somewhere.

Does anybody still fight for your rights in the UK? I'm not really plugged into politics here, let alone there.

[Pax Jordana]

I'd say, for anyone of relatively able body, look into WWII combatives (ours... or yours.. both I would deem sufficient from my limited experience.) Emphasis on sticks, canes and umbrellas, relatively simple, and cheap shots come first and foremost!

Unfortunately, for you older or infirm fellows, my only advice would be to leave as much money as you can in your will for a lawsuit, or donation somewhere.

Does anybody still fight for your rights in the UK? I'm not really plugged into politics here, let alone there.

[Matt_W]

Do they have enough rain to explain a near constant carrying of an umbrella?

This Summer I managed just that without attracting any unwarranted attention from anyone. I also didn't get mugged or 'happy slapped' either.

The thing is about a sturdy umbrella is that the Police have to prove you had evil intent as your reason for having what is a perfectly legal object to own.

And if you are ever forced to use it defensively you will find that the term 'instant arming' protects you from offensive weapon charges.

K9 PO, I think you're mistaken about who is restricting rights. The push is largely coming from 'concerned citizens', the kind of person who'd be called a soccer mom in the USA. Ban everything for the sake of the children. This is a big part of the problem - so many people WANT to ban everything in the hope it will go away. I'm sure you know the mindset, people who think everything potentially dangerous is a weapon and having them must lead to a crazed rampage. In my opinion that's worse than a government doing it to an apathetic public (but not as bad as doing it to a largely unsupportive public).

Whilst this is very true, the same people who are calling for yobs to be disarmed are also the victims of violent crime and so I get the feeling that things are changing as far as lawful self defence is viewed by these sorts of people.

[chorlton]

Capt. Fairburn had some great manuals, and of course the old Home Guard ones (which I was lucky enough to find).
Did anyone mention the Cold Steel version of a sharpie pen? Its specially hardened for use as a kobutan (I guess) I think its called "sharkie" :D

[Story]

This thread needs to be Stickied, for the Americans.

It's a Cassandra, a living warning of what happens when a people surrender and decide they want to live in Orwell's 1984.

[Matt_W]

that is so true

[hso]

its specially hardened for use as a kobutan (I guess)

That assumption would be incorrect. It's ugly as sin and too large to explain as a marker and there are much better (more expensive) pens designed to work in a defensive role.

[liberty boy]

A large number of muggings in the uK smilarly to the US in reality come from britain's black population. I'm sceptical about these hairy fairy ideas to ward off your attacker- hitting his legs with a walking stick etc. You have to ask yourself Mike Tyson high on crack- a state in which he may likely be inconscient to pain and extremely pumped up on adrenalin -is he going to be scared off by some slightly built white guy ineptly trying to blow a bit of pepper in his face?

[sm]

hso,
Permission to suggest some other Forums please.

I was asked to weigh in, why is beyond me.

United Kingdom, Australia , New Zealand, and many other Countries are Restricted, and are Represented by some outstanding members such as Fosbery, Odd Job, Spinner and many others too numerous to mention. I apologize for not mentioning everyone and leaving anyone out. I assure you, I respect and appreciate your sharing and input here on THR.

1. One can learn many things from those restricted, whether in the UK, or even areas here in the US.

a. Instead of criticizing, one would be wise to see how these restrictions came to be, and therefore learn how to prevent , and how to continue to work on changes.
These restrictions are being promoted to become part of your life, as the sucesses of Control are taken note and the same methods of implementation are being used where you live.

b. Legal definitions , and Governments different outside of the US. So one should consider the Government of UK, Australia, NZ , etc.
Meaning, the terms and interpretations differ from what US Citizens are accustomed to, and unlike the US, the process of law differs.

British Blades is one Forum I read.
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/

These very civil and polite folks have a nice forum. Besides the Knives, these folks share British Law and Restrictions.
Most informative, not only for UK and Similar Restricted Countries, also for Me and other US citizens.
While the Law, Definitions, and everything is shared, one can also "see" how Restrictions come to be , with "terms" , "definitions" and the like and apply to the US and get an idea how these same methods can be used to Restrict Freedoms in the US, and Control Americans.

2. Acceptance is Key.
UK, Australia , New Zealand and other Areas are Restricted.
Just like I am Restricted here in the Southern United States in some areas.
Government Building, by Law, says I cannot have a gun inside.
I am also asked to pass through a Metal Detector, Empty my Pockets and the like.
I *sometimes* even have to leave a small Swiss Army Classic knife in a container, and continue my business with nothing.

Airports I have avoided.
Prisons and Jails I have not, and I assure, I am not getting onto Property with anything.
Military Bases are another.

WE silly Americans , IMO, put too much emphasis on Guns, Knives, Equipment.
Hardware.

If one puts every ounce of energy and mental focus on Guns, Knives, and "specific things", they Restrict Themselves in the ability to stay safe.

Human beings no matter where they live do this, just how we are made up.
If you are worried about misplacing your favorite ink pen for instance, the brain leaves the body and you are going to run a stop sign, run your grocery buggy into someone, or they you as you were not paying attention.

Ever had a fussy child in your care, at home and be distracted with that sick kid, and forget something cooking and burn it?
Maybe sick wife, husband, elderly parent, and not even at home, just "worried" and "concerned" and your focus and mindset is restricted and you make mistakes.

Here in the US, we have trainers such as SouthNarc.
One has to register to become a member to his forum.
They do not put up with Any BS, and wannabe's and bravado's is dealt with, so don't register if you are not intending to shut up and learn.

Total Protection Interactive.
http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/

There are members from the UK and elsewhere that are Restricted.
Some Real Deal Folks, that due to work, and where this work takes them, cannot have weapons.

There are places in the UK, NZ and elsewhere, I am sure, that have similar trainers and training one can find out about and therefore attend and participate in.

Legal, will be discussed, so what may "work" in UK , may not in NZ perhaps.
I do not know. All I do know is, education, investigation and verification are important in this "staying safe".

3. Do Not Advertise.
I do not care where one lives, one should not advertise.

a.Perceptions.
I speak of Perceptions. In what I am familiar with, I do NOT want folks to know what I am or anything. Instead I often "give off" the perception I want them to have.
I am single, no kids.

What you will see "depends" on what "I" want you to see and hear.
Older Returning College Student, Married to a Brunette, Blond, with no kids, or two. My girlfriend, fiance, or me and my kid(s).
I fired my family, except one.
So is that my brother, sister, aunt, uncle?
My grandparents are dead, but I may be out with Grandpa or Grandma.

You will not see a knife clipped to my pocket.
BGs where I am, look for such tell-tale signs.
Security is also going to look at my pockets, to see if I have a 'tactical knife" or is that a razor blade tool I have clipped while I wear painter paints, with paint and "he must paint and do drywall stuff?"

Guns? "Oh, I thought only the Police and Military could have those"
"Skeet? What is that, oh no thank you, I am not interesting in learning to shoot a shotgun, I hear shotguns hurt when you shoot them"

I can look you in the eye ball and say this, with two CCWs on person, 4 shotguns in my vehicle and I am heading out to assist in giving lessons to ladies on how to shoot Skeet.

b. Shut Up.
Besides Internet being a Public View, on is wise to shut up in personal lives.
Assume nothing - trust nobdy.

IF for instance you have a bad leg,and use a Cane, to assist in walking, then that is why you are using a cane.
NEVER EVER suggest, not even in jest, to family - especially kids, "Yeah I will Knock the Fire out of some punk with this Cane if they mess with me".

You. Are. Screwed.

That sharing, will be advertised. Folks, kids won't "mean to" , still they will.
That sharing will come back to bite you in the butt.

"Grandpa said if any punk tried to hurt him, he would knock the fire out of them with his cane". - grandkid. School, playground, out to eat...just being a kid.

-BGs hear this, and "by golly we will show that old man a thing or two"
Now Grandpa is a target.

-Grandpa does get in a situation, whether those BGs that targeted him to make a point/example him or some other punks.

Report is taken, Investigations done, and trust me, some BGs know the law better than YOU do.
Defense Attorney is sharp, sends his investigation team and these BGs do not get into trouble, or trouble reduced.

"Let the Record show, Grandpa said he would knock the fire out of someone with that cane". Grandkid, Grandma, Kids, Sunday School Class, the folks he has coffee with at the diner, the folks at the hardware store...all tell investigators...

"yeah Grandpa said that..."
"Grandpa said that , but, just an old man, he didn't mean anything buy it...".

Defensive attorneys, the jury, the jurisdiction where this incident took place, and all sorts of "definitions" and "interpretations" - find Grandpa at fault.

Forget the cane, umbrella, or anything else.
Might be a good idea to NOT advertise, Martial Arts, or anything else either.

Concealed is Concealed, and it is NObody's business of anything one has, from mindset, training, skill sets, [Software] , to guns, knives, canes, umbrellas...[Hardware].


My take : Public Fora is fine and dandy.
Still some matter need to remain private.
I am a member of other forums, some are invite only and credentials have to be approved. Some are private and not viewable by the public.

Private Messaging works on forums such as THR.

UK, Australia, New Zealand and other members, I am sorry for your problems.
You folks have shared a wealth with me, and have my utmost respect and appreciation for doing so.

I KNOW, you have taken measures and know the laws in which you must work within.
In private, I know some special trainers and training can be had.

Now if could just us Silly Americans to pay attention and learn, and continue to learn. ;)


Page 3 girls. Gotta be someway to have that page be defined as "non-firearm" so pics could be posted. :)


Steve

[hso]

http://www.gutterfighting.org/Stickfighting.html

http://www.donrearic.com/main.html

Having done a little training with SouthNarc and being a member at TPI I can certainly recommend his training and his street philosophy.

For our UK friends that don't have ready access to SouthNarc, look up Fred Perrin (bene.perrin@tiscali.fr) in France.

[lanternlad1]

Here's an umbrella designed for fighting.

http://www.real-self-defense.com/umbrella.html

I would also suggest steel-toe shoes or boots.

You could also get a length of garden hose about 16" or so, melt one end shut, fill it with sand, pack it down, melt the other end shut. Wrap it with duct tape.

One whack will break bone, and it will go through a metal detector. Easily ditchable, and easy to replace.

Also, there is this:
http://www.billstclair.com/DoingFreedom/000623/df.0600.ht.paperguns.html

but I don't know how well, or even if, it works.

There is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yFUtJhUb7Q

And finally, here is a site for recreational reading.

http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/