[andrewdl007]

I was recently reading a Novel set in WWII France and I was constantly annoyed by the fact that the author kept referring to the Nazi standard issue revolver. Now, I always thought that the Germans mainly carried 9mm or 32acp pistols like lugers, P-38s, Wlather PP/PPK, etc. Does anyone know if the Germans had a revolver that was widely distributed?

[jonnyc]

Most writers make big errors when it comes to firearms. What seems simple and important to us (revolver/pistol/automatic/semi-auto) is irrelevant and interchangeable to them. Yes, the Germans did use a few captured revolvers, but widely distributed...no.

[bannockburn]

An interesting historical sidenote to this was that when Fieldmarshall Herman Goering was captured by American troops, he was carrying a Smith and Wesson 38 Spl. revolver.

[Lone Star]

What this means is that a jerk writer didn't want to bother to look up German handguns. Many Euro writers use "revolver" interchangeably with "automatic". They don't know the difference.

Jack Higgins gets around this by using brand names and no models in his books,usually. The PPK and the Browning Hi-Power are the main exceptions, for his novels set in recent times. That was easy for him, as these are standard British issue handguns. That the SAS has gone largely to SIG P-226 and P-228 9mm's seems to have slipped past him.

He also makes references to a Ceska, presumably the CZ-75, but maybe a CZ-50 or CZ-70, as the character in, "Exocet" put it in a coat pocket.

He also uses "Mauser", which can mean anything from a C-96 to a .25. You just have to read the scene and the character and insert the sort that would be most probable. I'm vacillating between a M-34 and a HSc for one SS man in, "THe Eagle Has Flown".

Alistair MacLean did that in, "The Guns of Navarone", referring to a Colt, a Bren, etc. The movie didn't follow the book guns entirely. David Niven had an Enfield .38, which I'm sure he knew how to use. Lt. Col. Niven, in his autobiography, said that he carried a "Webley" during that war, where he distinguished himself in actual combat, one of the few actors who has. Audie Murphy is the other notable one, although Brig. Gen. James Stewart was a fine bomber pilot. B-17's, I think...

Not just British writers do this brand name thing. . Robert B. Parker (US) is better than most. His Spenser series sometimes specifies, and it is usually a logical choice. But his Jesse Stone and Sunny Randall series just infer S&W snub .38's. I just think of both Jesse and Sunny with S&W M-60's and read on.

Lone Star

[Lone Star]

As a side note to my above post, next time you watch "THe Guns of Navarone", look at the pistol worn by the German officer who captured the commando team. He has a Mauser M-10 or M-34. You seldom see those in films.

If you haven't seen the movie, do, soon. It is one of the best war films of all time.

Lone Star

[Jim K]

For some time, the British had total disdain for auto pistols, considering them as used only by Germans and Chicago gangsters - noble Englishmen defended the Empire with Webley revolvers. So British writers, almost all totally ignorant of guns, got into the habit of calling any handgun a revolver and any long gun a shotgun. Even when a writer specifically uses the term "rifle", the gun is usually described as firing a blast of shot or some similiar error.

That being said, a few German rear echelon military and reserve personnel actually were issued old 10.6mm Models 1879 and 1883 revolvers during WWII; quite a few were captured and brought back by GI's. About like an American WWII general carrying a Model 1873 Colt; that would be really dumb, wouldn't it?

Jim

[Onmilo]

I'm sure it must have been some Gestapo version of the RG .38:D

[Logan5]

When was this novel written? Growing up, I read a lot of period boy's adventure stuff set in WWI or earlier... They were like 10 cents for a 300 page book, used, so mom let me go nuts.
Lots of the period books would have our Allied heroes coming up with the German captor's revolver after some fisticuffs, likelyhood of fisticuffs or revolvers be damned. It was all about lots of swash being buckled. The author might have been trying to mimic the style of the time?
In quite a few of the period westerns, the dirty low down claim jumper would mail order a Luger to do his back shootin' with, and I always wondered... Why? If it's 1912 in the Yukon, who's there who can tell a dug out .38-40 slug from a 9mm? It's not Forensic Files; everyone knows who did it, and then they go get them. Golly gee, uncle Sky, that there looks a mite like an East coast pulp writer plot device...

[Browning]

I'll bet it was one of these.


1879 German Reich Revolver In 10,6X25R Caliber
http://www.johnnyg.westhost.com/cwg47-reichs-pistol-L-s.jpg

In the last day days of WWII in the fall and winter of 1944 and the spring of 1945 the Germans were looking for anything that would fire a bullet at a faster speed than throwing it with a hand. Alot of old antique firearms that would never have been used under any other circumstances were hauled out of mothballs to be given to the Volkssturm to hopefully blaze away at the enemy with.

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/equipment/dbe07.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1879_Reichsrevolver

[andrewdl007]

The book I was talking about is called The Alabi Club. The Nazis who have the revolvers are three germans who are riding ahead of the German Army marching through France. It takes place at the begining of the war not the end when every gun was needed.

[Browning]

Then perhaps they were three seasoned German Officers who just couldn't let go of their really old guns because they were attached to them out of nostalgia from their previous service in the trenches of WWI. Who knows what was in the authors mind.

Other than French, British or American revolvers that could have been captured during WWI, THIS particular revolver or other models of various revolvers that could have been bought from private sources I really don't know. The Germans really never used revolvers except for these after they went with semi-autos (Luger). Maybe a small number used Russian or Belgian Nagants, but I can't really see German Officers being all that sold on Nagant revolvers.

Which is what made me think of the Reich Revolver.

[JoshM]

Andrewdl007

I know that the Heer pressed into service everything from Belgian pistols, to French trucks, to Czech artillery and everything else they could get their hands on during WW2. So maybe they are captured Manurhin or FN revolvers ?

I wonder if the official sidearm of the Polish Mil/Police was a revolver prior to 1939 ?

[PzGren]

Germans officers usually furnished their own handguns but generally stayed with standard calibers.
The only polish weapons used by German troops in numbers, that I am aware of, are Radoms and Polish made K98s.
Ceska Zbrojovka also made some .25 ACPs that were used by the Wehrmacht, as well as the Modell 27 in .32 ACP.

[ulflyer]

LoneStar: You mentioned Jimmy Stewart which brings to mind that I worked a good many years ago with a retired Air Force radio op that flew in B-29's (I think) and on one occasion flew with Stewart who was in the Air Force Reserve and had came out to do his obligatory annual training. He brought in considerable memorabilia that verified that. Described Stewart as a real "hot rod" with that airplane. According to him, they all thought highly of Jimmy Stewart as a good flyer and gentleman.

[Phil DeGraves]

With the advent of World War II many of our actors went to fight rather
than stand and rant against this country we all love.

They gave up their wealth, position and fame to become service men many as simple "enlisted men."

This page lists but a few, but from this group men came over 70
medals in honor of their valor, spanning from Bronze Stars, Silver Stars,
Distinguish Service Cross', Purple Hearts and one Congressional Medal of
Honor.

Most of these brave men have since passed on.


Alec Guinness (Star Wars~Bridge over the River Kwai) operated a British
Royal Navy landing craft on D-Day.


James Doohan ("Scotty" on Star Trek) landed in Normandy with the U. S.
Army on D-Day.


Donald Pleasance (The Great Escape) really was an R. A. F. pilot who was
shot down, held prisoner and tortured by the Germans.


David Niven was a Sandhurst graduate and Lt. Colonel of the British
Commandos in Normandy.


James Stewart Entered the Army Air Force as a private and worked his way
to the rank of Colonel.
During World War II, Stewart served as a bomber pilot, his service record
crediting him with leading more than 20 missions over Germany, and taking
part in hundreds of air strikes during his tour of duty.

Stewart earned the Air Medal, the Distinguished Flying Cross, France's
Croix de Guerre,and 7 Battle Stars during World War II.

In peace time, Stewart continued to be an active member of the Air Force as
a reservist, reaching the rank of Brigadier General before retiring in the
late 1950's.


Clark Gable (Mega-Movie Star when war broke out) Although he was beyond the
draft age at the time the U.S. entered WW II
Clark Gable enlisted as a private in the AAF on Aug. 12, 1942 at Los
Angeles.
He attended the Officers' Candidate School at Miami Beach, Fla. and
graduated as a second lieutenant on Oct. 28, 1942. He then attended aerial
gunnery school and in Feb. 1943 he was assigned to the 351st Bomb Group at
Polebrook where flew operational missions over Europe in B-17s.

Capt. Gable returned to the U.S. in Oct. 1943 and was relieved from active
duty as a major on Jun. 12, 1944 at his own request, since he was over-age
for combat.


Charlton Heston was an Army Air Corps Sergeant in Kodiak.


Earnest Borgnine was a U. S. Navy Gunners Mate 1935-1945.

Charles Durning was a U. S. Army Ranger at Normandy earning a Silver Star
and awarded the Purple Heart.


Charles Bronson was a tail gunner in the Army Air Corps, more specifically
on B-29s in the 20th Air Force out of Guam, Tinian, and Saipan.


George C. Scott was a decorated U. S. Marine.


Eddie Albert (Green Acres TV) was awarded a Bronze Star for his heroic
action as a U. S. Naval officer aiding Marines at the horrific battle on
the island of Tarawa in the Pacific Nov. 1943.


Brian Keith served as a U.S. Marine rear gunner in several actions against
the Japanese on Rabaul in the Pacific.


Lee Marvin was a U.S. Marine on Saipan during the Marianas campaign when he
was wounded earning the Purple Heart.

John Russell (Pale Rider, Outlaw Josey Wales): In 1942, he enlisted in the Marine Corps where he received a battlefield commission and was wounded and highly decorated for valor at Guadalcanal.
Jason Robards served as a radio operator, assigned to the USS Northampton, a heavy cruiser. Robards saw considerable action in the Pacific theater, during the engagements at Wake Island, Midway and Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands.
During the Battle of Tassafaronga on the night of November 30, 1942, Northampton was sunk by hits from two Japanese torpedoes. Robards found himself treading water until near daybreak, when he was rescued by an American destroyer. He was awarded the Navy Cross for valor during this battle. He would remain in the Navy through the end of the war, serving on the light cruiser USS Honolulu, and was discharged in 1947.
Burgess Meredith served in the United States Army Air Force in World War II, reaching the rank of Captain.

Robert Ryan was a U.S. Marine who served with the OSS in Yugoslavia.

Jack Palance was a professional heavyweight boxer until the outbreak of World War II, when his boxing career ended and his military career began. Wounded in combat, he received the purple heart, good conduct medal, and the World War II Victory Medal.

Tyrone Power (an established movie star when Pearl Harbor was bombed)
joined the US. . Marines, was a pilot flying supplies into, and wounded
Marines out of, Iwo Jima and Okinawa.


Audie Murphy, little 5'5" tall 110 pound guy from Bay City, Texas who
played cowboy parts?

Most decorated serviceman of WWII and earned: Medal of Honor, Distinguished
Service Cross, 2 Silver Star Medals, Legion of Merit, 2 Bronze Star
Medals with "V", 2 Purple Hearts, U.S. Army Outstanding Civilian Service
Medal, Good Conduct Medal, 2 Distinguished Unit Emblems, American Campaign
Medal, European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal with One Silver
Star, Four Bronze Service Stars (representing nine campaigns) and one
Bronze Arrowhead (representing assault landing at Sicily and Southern
France) World War II Victory Medal Army of Occupation Medal with Germany
Clasp, Armed Forces Reserve Medal, Combat Infantry Badge, Marksman Badge
with Rifle Bar, Expert Badge with Bayonet Bar, French Fourragere in Colors
of the Croix de Guerre, French Legion of Honor, Grade of Chevalier, French
Croix de Guerre With Silver Star, French Croix de Guerre with Palm, Medal
of Liberated France, Belgian Croix de Guerre 1940 Palm.

So how do you feel the real heroes of the silver screen acted when
compared to the hollywonks today who spray out anti-American drivel as
they bite the hand that feeds them? Can you imagine these stars of
yesteryear saying they hate our flag, making anti-war speeches, marching in
anti-American parades and saying they hate our president?

[Onmilo]

Best part is, I like ALL those actors!

I did a little digging and short of the Ordinance revolver the only other revolvers that were any kind of popular with Police or Paramilitary organizations were the Mauser revolver and German copies of the break top Smith and Wesson .32

All three of these designs date back to the 1870s and rapidly lost favor with the coming of the Luger P08 and the Walther, Sauer, and Mauser HsC pocket pistols.
By 1935 all the revolver designs would have been pretty much passe' in German law enforcement/military circles.

Amazing that the Americans didn't really give up revolvers until the mid 1980s isn't it?

[Dain Bramage]

Of course Audie Murphy is a bit bass-ackwards on that list. He was a bonafide war hero first, and then offered a Hollywood career post-war.

[Redcatcher]

Good discussion on the German use of revolvers. I came across an oddity recently that finally convinced me that the Germans were at least making one model of revolver during the time that they were heavy into semi-autos. I picked it up because I'd never seen a German revolver with eagle over N nitro proofs (1939-1945 or thereabouts). Have attached some pics. I could find no record of the maker (Deneke & Co. Zella-Mehlis) Interestingly, the same town that had the big Walther plant during the war. Its not a particularly well made piece except for the quality and fit of the excellent wood grips. It is a bit crude in places. I was thinking that it may have been for a bank or factory guard. Kind of strange that they were making this at a time when semi-autos were all the rage. It may not have been made for the Volkssturm, but it's definitely something they would have pressed into service. Thanks.

[sgphoto]

There are also references to Browning revolvers in a lot of Russian history writings. Rather than ignorance, many "pistols" were called revolvers much like "cokes" in the south refers to any number of soft drinks. Also, translations from one language to another can introduce errors.

While today such an "error" would not be acceptable, such writings must be understood in the time period in which they were written. That's what makes history interesting.

Charles Durning was also at Malmedy in December 1944 (Battle of the Bulge) where he escaped on the killing grounds during the US prisoner massacre at the hands of the SS.

He rarely discussed the event and it was only the last ten years that his presence at the massacre was made public.

Steve

Sorry for the double posting.

[Blade_Zero]

Of course Audie Murphy is a bit bass-ackwards on that list. He was a bonafide war hero first, and then offered a Hollywood career post-war.

Lee Marvin too, todays "stars" don't bare comparision the guys listed above were men's men, not pretty boys.

[Sunray]

"...takes place at the begining(sic) of the war..." The Germans had been rummaging about Europe long before 1939. The myth of them using strictly 9mm's and .32 ACP pocket pistols was created by Hollywood. They used any handgun they could confiscated from all over Europe. So finding a German troopie with a revolver of some type wouldn't have been unusual.
David Niven served with the Highland Light Infantry on Malta in the 30's. He served with the Rifle Brigade and SOE(behind the lines) during the war. And he never talked about any of it.

[modifiedbrowning]

As far as WWII actors go don't forget Sterling Hayden (Gen. Jack D. Ripper from Dr. Strangelove, among others). He was an OSS operative I believe.

[Deanimator]

He has a Mauser M-10 or M-34. You seldom see those in films.
They were the original "UNCLE Special" on "The Man from UNCLE". They were later replaced by short barreled P-38s.

[tegemu]

I have seen a picture of Hermann Goering surrendering his revolver when he was captured/surrendered.

[MikePGS]

The funny thing about Audie Murphy is that he supposedly received every single medal available... except for the good conduct medal, which is supposed to be one of the easiest to get:)

[Hoppy590]

i know Wikipedia isnt the best source but heres a list of captured handguns and thier axis model numbers

Pistole 657(n) Ex "Kongsberg Colt" - Calibre .45

Pistole 660(a) Ex "M1911" - Calibre .45

Revolver 662(a) Ex "Smith & Wesson Mod 1917" - Calibre 45


those are just the American captured guns. i cant seem to find the big list that includes everything from Nagant revolvers to webleys.

[Mike Faires]

Maybe Audie not getting the GCM isn't so strange. He enlisted in June 1942 and was commisioned in December 1944. The medal requires 3 years service for award and officers are not eligible. He didn't serve the required 3 years as an enlisted man before the battle field promotion. By the way the Air Force eliminated the medal in 2006 because " good conduct is the AF standard and as such does not deserve special recognition".

[Tom C.]

I don’t believe Jimmy Stewart enlisted. I believe he was drafted, in the fall of ’41, just before the war began. He had bought an a/c in the late ‘30s when he was making good money and learned to fly. He went to flight school in the Army and flew B-24s. I believe 23 combat missions and a stint as a group operations officer, briefing aircrew on the missions.

He felt he was born to play Charles Lindbergh and finally did. I liked him in Strategic Air Command (1953).

[buzz_knox]

James Doohan ("Scotty" on Star Trek) landed in Normandy with the U. S.
Army on D-Day.

He was actually in the Canadian Army, which assaulted Juno Beach on D-Day. He led his men in, is credited with two sniper kills, then ended up being shot by a nervous Bren gunner on sentry duty.

[mnw42]

Don't forget that Elvis and many ball players served in the military. Though Elvis didn't see any combat and was relegated to a moral boosting roll.

[Onmilo]

I remember something about old Herman surrendering.
Wasn't he packing a Smith and Wesson M&P .38 when he gave up the good fight?

[ev239]

I have been reading The Bourne Identity, which is fairly entertaining, except for the author's lack of firearm knowledge. He constantly refers to a long barreled revolver fitted with a silencer which to my knowledge the only revolver any way suited for a silencer is the Nagant. Which only fires a totally underpowered round that would only get weaker slowed down by a silencer. It's bothered me to the point where I've lost interest in finishing the book.

[buzz_knox]

He constantly refers to a long barreled revolver fitted with a silencer which to my knowledge the only revolver any way suited for a silencer is the Nagant.

S&W made a suppressed revolver, which if memory serves was a customized M25. It was used by some police units (including the German Border Police) as an short range urban sharpshooter weapon. I believe the French counterrorism unit used a Manhurin revolver similarly.

[BigG]

They do too have silenced revolvers. I saw Lee Marvin use on in The Killers. They wouldn't show it in a movie if it wasn't real. ;)

[Hoppy590]

Nagants make excellend supressed revolvers and are still believed to be in use in russia. hell plain old nagants are still in use by the railroad if i understand correctly

[lathedog]

"Revolver" is used in the modern German language as a generic term for any handgun. Long story on that, but that's what I learned when I studied the language.

I have noticed this in translated histories many times before and always figured that the word in the original German text is not considered as needing a translation, as we have the same word in English, although with a different specific meaning.

In language studies this is called a false cognate (if memory serves) if the word is the same spelling but means something else (like mist=manure or gift=poison). I suppose you could call "revolver" a semi-false cognate?

[Arsyx]

Scratch that, someone posted my comment already.

[dscottw88]

This reminds me of a clip from Bourne Ultimatum, although it was a good movie, damon is found holding what appears to be a Sig to an older man. Cue Flashback, than when we return, he appears to have swapped it out for a glock. If I'm not mistaken, he than goes Back to the Sig.

To stay on topic however, I personally wasn't aware of any revolvers being issued to the german military in WWII. In fact, I was under the impression that even standard issue pistols such as p38 or luger were mainly issued to officers. German troops were stuck with the k98 most of the time.

[Janos Dracwlya]

Some years back, I read the autobiography of Otto Skorzeny, the famous SS commando. In the book, he pretty much always referred to handguns as "revolvers", so maybe it is the result of a bad translation or misunderstanding?

[def4pos8]

General Stewart was originally drafted (according to a recent biography) but was not accepted for service due to being far too under-weight. He was truly THIN at the time. He fattened himself up, eventually becoming heavy enough to enlist. He was accepted, passed recruit training and was performing simple duties when he mentioned to his commander that he was already a licensed pilot with decent experience in several machines. He bacame an aviation cadet, eventually qualifying for a commission and aviator's wings.

I find the calibers of those old, German revolvers (10.6x25R) interesting. Europeans occasionally describe the .44 S&W Special as a 10.6x29R.

[Jim K]

Hi, Redcatcher,

I think the Zella-Mehlis company was the retailer, not the manufacturer. Since the only proof marks are German, I would assume German manufacture, but the gun has a Belgian look about it. Like English makers, German manufacturers often didn't put their name on guns, letting the retailer mark the gun with his name and address. The result is somewhat confusing as retailers are often believed by collectors to be manufacturers, which they weren't.

Jim

[strangelittleman]

I believe it was Sterling Hayden that was a Marine that was seconded to the OSS for service in Yugoslavia, since he actually was a native speaker of, I think, serbo-croatian, he was one of only 2 Marines known to have been seconded to the OSS-European theatre. He was awarded the Silver Star for his service. He enlisted before Pearl Harbour.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that when Skorzeny's troops jumped into rescue Mussolini he and some of his men carried Colt .38spls in their jump jackets (no holster?), I have no idea what model, bbl. etc.
Robert Ryan was a Marine in the Pacific Theatre.
If there was fairly common usage of revolvers in the german army during WW2, it's a possibility they were captured from the Norwegian nat'l police after Quisling capitulated to the Gremans. The Norwegians carried a version of the 1911( w/ a strange slide release & straight backstrap) in some units of the army and part of the nat'l police carried american revolvers in .38, but I'm unclear how common there were issued.

[AtticusThraxx]

Redcatcher, you might have an early version of the Velo Dog revolver. According to "German Pistols and Holsters 12934-1945 Vol II" There we're a good number of commercial gun dealers who sold only to German Officers, Nazi Party members, police, etc.
They were sold to qualified buyers between 1934-1945. Though all the revolvers of this type I can find pictures of had octagon barrel, they bought stuff from all over Europe new and used. Revolvers among German Officers semed to become a status symbol by mid-war.
Goering's pistol was a S&W Military&Police Model 1905 Serial number 642357. Imagine you could get a couple of bucks for it at auction. S&W sold alot of pistols to German dealers right up to 1938 acoording to this book.

[Dr.Rob]

My great aunt's husband took a 38S&W off 'a dead german' (not a .38 special) looked like an SW, markings were impossible to read. Might have been a Spanish copy? Or old and refinished. I scrubbed a spot or rust off the cylinder the size of a dime where it had sat in a steel drawer, cleaned it and oiled it. Don't recall seeing the deep American style marking on it at all... no doubt of the weapon's authenticity.

[Cosmoline]

There certainly were revolvers floating around Europe during the war, but I doubt many German officers would have chosen a clunky 19th century wheelgun over a Luger or Walther. Some no doubt did, and some as noted may have had personal revolvers. But it would be the exception not the rule.

[strangelittleman]

Dr.Rob, it may very well have been Spanish. The German's sent advisors, and all kinds of equipment to Gen. Franco during the Spanish revolution in the 1930's. The Germans even field tested the Stuka dive bombers during that war, if I remember correctly. By the way the Russians supplied the rebels, as many of them were affiliated with socialist movements.