Back up guns.


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Ron James
September 19, 2007, 10:38 PM
Perhaps my views are a little old fashioned or outdated, so I'll ask for a few opinions. How many people , especially long term carriers, ex-law enforcement and other ex-professionals feel a back up gun is necessary for every day, day in, day out CCW carry. Just the average person making a living, chopping wood, picking up the kids, slopping the pigs type carry. I'm not referring to on duty carry. He**, I used to carry my primary weapon, a back up, and a shotgun and baseball bat in my patrol car. I'm referring to every day carry. My opinion which I have made known, is that one gun is enough, but maybe I'm out of step. What say you out there?

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Vonderek
September 19, 2007, 11:04 PM
Murphy's Law. Anything mechanical can fail. I'd rather reach in my pocket for my BUG than use my primary as a club.

Double Naught Spy
September 20, 2007, 12:31 AM
Murphy's Law. Anything mechanical can fail.

Actually, this is a variant on Finagle's Law. Murphy's Law holds that "If there's more than one possible outcome of a job or task, and one of those outcomes will result in disaster or an undesirable consequence, then somebody will do it that way."

My opinion which I have made known, is that one gun is enough, but maybe I'm out of step.

One gun is enough for what? For self defense? One gun will be enough, or it won't.

One gun may be enough might be good for your situation, but the statement does not apply to any other person for which you don't have a complete understanding of their situation.

insidious_calm
September 20, 2007, 01:03 AM
Personally it depends on what and where I am carrying. If I am carrying a fullsize handgun like my para p14 then I usually carry a glock 26 on my ankle. Often though, I don't carry a fullsize gun. I've found that the glock 26 by itself IWB is more comfortable for me if I'm out for an extended period. I find this to be especially true when it's very hot. Look twice at the guy in the khaki shorts and the untucked button down shirt. ;)

One thing I always carry though, is a reload for my primary gun, whatever it may be. I also always carry a cellphone, and if out at night a small surefire light. I usually round it all out with a leatherman tool or small folding knife.

I think you should make that determination based on what you are comfortable with. While I admit that there is a certain level of security felt when I go out and about armed like mad max in beyond thunderdome, :D there is definately a balance between feeling secure about having more than one gun at hand and real comfort in not having to carry the extra weight and clothing that carrying multiple guns entails.

I.C.

230RN
September 20, 2007, 02:16 AM
Depends on a mix of variables, including time of day, weather, destination.

I always carry extra mag or cylinder-full for any gun.

Mix of guns and equipment:

.45 in belt under a jacket if it's cool, under a Hawaaian shirt or in a belly pack if it's warm.

.38 in an ankle holster.

.380 in a belly pack.

Really bright flashlight.

Occasionally a quick-deploying folding knife.

Steak or long kitchen knife.


Time of day:

Usually one gun in daytime, plus BUG at night

Taking out trash in dark: Usually revolver in pocket or belt, flashlight, steak knife (Lion Medicine)

Weather:

If it's wet out (snow, rain, puddles), I'll avoid using an ankle holster. Got splashed by a car once, had to "go to earth" to dry out gun.

Hot: Ankle holster and/or belly pack with a small auto, sometimes both depending on destination variable.

Cold: That's where I have fun. I once carried three guns around just 'cause I could, not because I was expecting anything. This fall I'm going to try for four guns... again, just 'cause I can. My son tells me that when he went through his CCW class, one of the instructors hauled out no less than fourteen guns, just to demonstrate the concealment possibilities.

Destination:

Bank inside, at least one gun. This is usually just part of general errand-running, during the day, so I'm usually carrying two. I pay cash for everything.

For drive-up window on Saturdays, just one in belt, one is sometimes in the glove-box.

Movies or gadding about at night, always at least two, plus flashlight, plus knife.

Daytime in City: Usually two guns, disposed as described above, according to weather, etc.

Going to work: Zero. None in car, none on person. No ammo, no knives, no nuthin'. I park in a really secure building surrounded by armed guards, monstrous tire-ripping barricades, mannions all around it. No real need for my own iron, In the morning, I walk twenty feet to my car, go to work without getting out of the car, drive into the building, and go to the office. At night I get in my car, leave the building, get home, and walk twenty more feet to my front door. If I feel the need to carry after work, I'll park in a private lot and leave the hardware secured in the car. Worth the ten bucks to park in a private lot to avoid lawyers, hassles, handcuffs....

romma
September 20, 2007, 10:27 AM
I don't carry a bug,,, but here is a little story for you:

One day after carrying my Walther PPK/S around for several months alternating with my other carry pieces here and there. One day I decided I should give it a little canoe time in the back yard ( Psst, I have a canoe in the back that certainly won't float with all the holes in it)..

Anyhow, I aim, safety off, squeeze trigger and nuthin' happened.

It would have sucked if I were anywhere and ever had to draw it...

Dirty Bob
September 20, 2007, 10:50 AM
romma:
Glad you found out the problem in a safe environment. IMHO, all carry and/or backup guns should be fired regularly. I do this to rotate my carry ammo and to test my cleaning/lubrication regimen.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

Ghost Tracker
September 20, 2007, 11:07 AM
It's kinda' like what I learned in Flight School - "The only time you have too much fuel...is when you're on fire."

The right BUG is almost forgotten until that moment arrives when you NEED it badly. I carry a CCW everywhere I'm not expressly forbidden by the conditions of my permit to do so. AND I carry a BUG about 75% of that time.

romma
September 20, 2007, 11:17 AM
IMHO, all carry and/or backup guns should be fired regularly.

I wholeheartedly agree Dirty Bob, however, real life can catch up with sometimes... Although I don't change out carry ammo too much. Usually the chambered round to keep from rechambering the round...

Dirty Bob
September 20, 2007, 11:20 AM
One approach I see occasionally is the "always" gun. Mine is a Kel-Tec 9mm. It's 100% reliable, and I carry it whenever I legally can.

I'm thinking of adding larger handgun this winter, when I can finally hide it, but the Kel-Tec will remain, in the same place as always. I don't think of the 9mm as a backup in this case, but rather the bigger gun as the second handgun.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

nelson133
September 20, 2007, 11:41 AM
As a person who make a living maintaining machinery, I know that mechanical things fail unexpectedly and always at the worst time. The only time I don't carry one bug is when I carry two.

NCHornet
September 20, 2007, 02:17 PM
I CC everywhere I legally can. The majority of the time it is a G23 in a Bianchi Carryloc on my side and either a NAA Guardian in 32acp or 380acp in a Nemisis holster in my front pocket. The reason for the second gun isn't that I worry about the glock failing, it's simply under certain circumstances having a hand in your front pocket is much less noticeable than pulling you shirt back and drawing the weapon. Depending on the situation I would have to decide which gun to go for, and if the Glock ever did fail, I will be darn glad I had another gun with me. I carry a single mag and 16 rounds of 40 cal, I don't see a need for another Glock mag, but I do carry two extra mags for the Guardians, they are very small and take up little space. I also carry a Surefire Night Fighter II flashlight and one of many SD folders. Sometimes it isn't possible for me to carry the G23, when this happens one of the Guardians then becomes primary, and I have never felt under gunned.

M92FS
September 20, 2007, 02:24 PM
In case your primary weapon failed, that's what a BUG is for, better be safe than sorry. :)

AlaskaErik
September 20, 2007, 02:42 PM
I've never carried a BUG. My Glock has been 100 percent reliable so far. The chances of having to draw it outside of work are pretty slim. The chances of getting into a gun fight are even slimmer. The chances of getting into a gun fight and the Glock not firing are so slim that it's simply not worth carrying a BUG. Besides, if you're in CQC range and your primary doesn't fire, you'll never get the BUG out fast enough.

romma
September 20, 2007, 02:49 PM
I just don't want to carry 2 guns around with me plain and simple. In spite of my carry gun failing when it did...

Who knows though, once upon a time, I didn't carry at all...

BikerRN
September 20, 2007, 03:06 PM
I've carried for over twenty years and I've carried a BUG for over five years.

You cannot guarantee that your "Primary" gun will be accessable to the hand you have available to draw with if you get in to a self defense encounter. Usually self defense encounters are fights that turn in to gunfights. They are "up close and personal".

Therefore I carry a BUG when I am Off-Duty. BTW, I have no obligation to "Protect and Serve" when I'm off the clock, and won't. My Off-Duty guns are to protect me and MY loved ones.

Biker

Mr. James
September 20, 2007, 03:08 PM
The points about mechanical failures and the invariable timing thereof are well taken, but sometimes, I think we prepare with the greatest energy for the least likely of events (as intimated by AlaskaErik). I carry a handgun with greater consistency than I buckle my seat belts. But which event is more likely in the life of a private citizen - a shootout (with your primary weapon failing, no less), or a traffic accident?

I don't carry two firearms for the simple reasons of convenience, comfort and a considered opinion of which events in my life are within the realm of the likely, the possible, and the so remotely possible as to be nuggatory.

Nothing in the above is meant to denigrate those whose circumstances, experience or training lead them to carry two or more handguns. Like romma, once upon a time, I too would not have given serious consideration to carrying at all. And I never rule out an "upgrade."

51Cards
September 20, 2007, 05:07 PM
Romma --- what, might i ask, was the problem with the PPK/S?

and Ghost Tracker, I was also taught that, among other useless things: the fuel left in the truck; the altitude above me; and the runway behind me. Funny how these things stick with you.

romma
September 20, 2007, 05:12 PM
Firing pin not striking, but it is not broken. At Smith and Wesson right now actually. Waiting to hear.

isp2605
September 20, 2007, 07:57 PM
BikerRN wrote:
You cannot guarantee that your "Primary" gun will be accessable to the hand you have available to draw with if you get in to a self defense encounter. Usually self defense encounters are fights that turn in to gunfights. They are "up close and personal".

BikerRN is exactly right. Carrying 2 guns is really not a backup but a second. Backup has the connotation that if your primary goes down that you go for the other gun. In reality, for the very reasons BikerRN mentioned, it's a second gun meaning that you may have to go for which ever one is handiest to get to at the time in any given situation.

CZ223
September 20, 2007, 08:56 PM
as I have mentioned several times before in various threads I am a Glock-aholic.:D No I don't need a cure.:rolleyes: I now have 2 model 23s and and a 32 and more than likely will be aquring a 27 or 33 or both in the near future. Since I have them I figure why not try carrying more than one. Right now the obvoius choice would be to carry both 23's. I have considered ankle carry but, since bell bottoms are currently not in style, I might wait till I get one of the sub-compacts.:D Since the subject of which gun is the easiest to get to has already been brought up, I have to wonder if anyone carries one on each hip. I have trained myself to shoot with my left hand as well as the right for Cowboy action shooting and I think this might be a good way to go. The only problem then would be to figure out where to put the spare mags. Right now I carry the G23 on my right hip and a spare mag on the left as well as the cell phone and a Buck folder(clip) in my pocket.

NCHornet
September 21, 2007, 10:08 AM
One on each hip would defintely balance things out, but I feel two full size weapons is a bit much. I prefer the larger weapon on my strong side, with a Night Fighter II flashlight on my left as well as my cel phone and access to me left front pocket where one of many SD knives rest, so no room for another large SD gun. The Guardian rides nicely in the front right pocket. As I stated above I am not so much worried about the Glock failing as I am of being in a situation where drawing my Glock might draw to much attention, but I hand in my jeans pocket would not seem abnormal at all. This is just what I have found works for me.

Pax Jordana
September 21, 2007, 10:54 AM
Yes, but mainly for access reasons, not those of failure.

If I've got God's Own Peacemaker stuffed down the front of my pants, six knives in each pocket and a baton in my back pocket, it won't do a derned thing if I've got my jacket zipped up.. much faster and less conspicuous than shedding layers if I just go for the 38 in my front jacket pocket :)

And, I joke with myself, if I'm out with that buddy who is "totally gonna get [his] permit as soon as [he] gets the time" and we're in some sort of situation where we can organize a response.. I'll give him the smaller of the two.

1 old 0311
September 21, 2007, 11:06 AM
The odds of needing to USE any carry piece is VERY, VERY, VERY, slim. The odds of needing a 'New York Reload' ( BUG) are slim to nonexistant.
If it gives you a feeling of security, go for it. But it is like wearing a belt, AND suspenders.

myrockfight
September 21, 2007, 11:37 AM
Cold: That's where I have fun. I once carried three guns around just 'cause I could, not because I was expecting anything. This fall I'm going to try for four guns... again, just 'cause I can.


Going to work: Zero. None in car, none on person. No ammo, no knives, no nuthin'. I park in a really secure building surrounded by armed guards, monstrous tire-ripping barricades, mannions all around it. No real need for my own iron, In the morning, I walk twenty feet to my car, go to work without getting out of the car, drive into the building, and go to the office. At night I get in my car, leave the building, get home, and walk twenty more feet to my front door.

-230 RN


I'm not trying to be a jerk, but help me out here. You go from one extreme to the other. Three guns, possibly four to zero. Why do you think you won't come across someone robbing your house when you get back from work. If you are a "RN" (I have no idea, just a guess), you work odd hours. Right?

You carry a gun when you take out the garbage at night, but you don't bring a gun into your own home after you have been away for what, 8 to 14 hours?

Just something to think about ;)

mavracer
September 21, 2007, 01:28 PM
is that one gun is enough
If you could tell me when and where and how many BG there are gonna be,then I'd know exactly what gun(guns) to bring.and the answer is none.because I'm not gonnna be there then.
Its a matter of to each their own.If you feel the need for two guns go for it. if not pack one and be glad you live where your rights are not infringed.

Bart Noir
September 21, 2007, 04:40 PM
230RN

I'm guessing as in "230 grain Round Nose" but that is not my reason for posting.

A steak knife for defense from a cougar :what:

From my personal experiences with the common household "putty tat" I will say that I never want to get within steak knive range of an angry cougar!

Bart Noir

Rexster
September 21, 2007, 06:00 PM
I agree with the idea of "second" gun more than "backup" gun. It's not unusual for me to carry as many as three when on my own time, though two is more common. (On duty, my patrol car is a rolling arsenal.) In a way, my SP101 snubbies are more like primary for me, because one or more of them are on me virtually all the time, while the bigger weapons, from my duty SIG to my 4" .357 sixguns, are not always there, or are carried off-body much of the time. As for a knife for dealing with big kitties, remember that they go for an ambush from behind, and it just might make more sense in some situations to carve the cat off of you than shoot it.

Mat, not doormat
September 23, 2007, 04:40 AM
On driving days, I carry one 1911 on my hip, and a P32 in my pocket. Often (read: nasty areas) I'll add a second 1911 in a crossdraw rig, or in the zippered compartment of my computer bag, nearby on the floor.

On days that I'm not primarily driving, I'll often carry two 1911s, one on each hip. If I'm dressed to hide the one, the other is no extra effort to hide, and balances out the load.

~~~Mat

BikerRN
September 23, 2007, 06:08 AM
The odds of needing to USE any carry piece is VERY, VERY, VERY, slim. The odds of needing a 'New York Reload' ( BUG) are slim to nonexistant.

Very slim? I've been in two, for polite society, "Armed Encounters", one before I was an LEO. Are you sure about those odds?

If you are carrying a gun as a "security blanket" then go ahead and carry however you want to. I on the other hand have seen the fecal matter hit the rotating thingie and want to be prepared to deal with it if I see it again.

You cannot guarantee what hand will be able to draw a weapon when a situation unfolds. Therefore I have a gun accessable to either hand, sometimes a third, but always two.

Biker

BigBlock
September 23, 2007, 06:31 AM
If I ever feel the need to carry more than one gun, that's the day I decide to move. One gun is more than most people will ever need in their lifetime. I can see the usefullness of a second gun for a police officer or someone else knowingly going into a dangerous situation, but personally I think the average citizen in an average neighborhood or city is absurd to carry more than one gun on their person, and most people would view that as being extremely paranoid.

BikerRN
September 23, 2007, 06:56 AM
I don't "knowingly go in to dangerous situations" if it can be avoided. Also, if you read my previous post you will see where I said that one of my encounters was prior to being an LEO.

Too many people carry a gun like it's a "Good Luck Charm", I know better. As far as the moving statement, you may one day learn what I learned at an early age, "There is no safe place." When I'm dead and in my coffin is when I will finally be safe. I'm not going to do anything to speed that up and hope to die of natural causes and old age. That is why I carry at least two guns.

Biker

NCHornet
September 23, 2007, 11:08 AM
I agree with Biker RN, as usual, you tell me where the safe areas are and that's where we will all move. The fact I live in Mayberry RFD, seriously I really do, and if I have had to draw my weapon in these parts it can happen anywhere and you never know what the scenario is going to be or how many there are going to be, you call it Paranoid I call it PREPARED.

mavracer
September 23, 2007, 05:53 PM
and most people would view that as being extremely paranoid.
and I'll tell them I have two guns what do I have to fear.

Rexster
September 23, 2007, 06:34 PM
It may sound funny, but one reason I carry more than one when off-duty is outright laziness and convenience. I can put on and wear a snubby SP101, and grab my Safepacker, containing a GP100 and spare ammo for both guns, quicker than I can put on a holster and mag pouch for one of my autoloaders or larger sixguns. The snubby's hip holster is small, and quick to position, regardless of belt loop configuration. In a sudden "go to" situation, the snubby clears leather faster, and has almost as much power, as a service-sized weapon. Life is good. :)

1911 guy
September 26, 2007, 04:16 PM
Back-Up Weapon
I don't carry a second handgun, but I do carry a fixed blade knife on my off side, just in case my pistol is inacessable for some reason. I'm more worried about proximity than malfunction.

Geronimo45
September 26, 2007, 04:35 PM
Don't carry one... mainly because it broke. After getting the part to repair it, it broke again.
Once it's running again, I'll probably only carry it when I've got deep pockets (literally, not figuratively).
For the moment, a 6-shot .357 Magnum is all I carry. It's a back-up to fast-moving feet. :p

10-Ring
September 26, 2007, 06:31 PM
Because of where I live, the people I surround myself with & the situations I usually have myself in, carrying a single CCW is sufficient. Now, bakc when the SHTF during the LA riots, I had my primary, an extra mag and my 12 ga in the trunk.

Alaskapopo
September 26, 2007, 09:43 PM
I carry a back up at work but not off duty. Nothing against it just don't have room for it. I do know one guy who simply carries two pistols and no spare ammo.
Pat

shooting on a shoestring
September 28, 2007, 12:20 AM
Just scanning the thread and noticed most folks using or carrying bugs are using an auto for a primary. I'm a revolver CCW, .357 SP101, exercise it often, don't see a need for a number 2. I also believe if I can't settle a gunfight in 4 shots or less, I'm the looser.

I do keep a 7.5" .45 Colt Blackhawk under my pickup seat loaded with 250 gr HPs at 1250 fps for long distance situations such as the Tyler Texas courthouse shooting a couple of years ago. So, in a sense that is a bug. I used to use a 30/30 for that when I drove a van and could stash it handily on the door post.

NCHornet
September 28, 2007, 07:40 AM
I don't believe it has anything to do with us being "auto guys". As a matter of fact if I carried a wheeler you bet I would have a secondary pocket pistol because in a SD situation you will loose fine motor skills and it would be much quicker to draw a second weapon than reload. You think you can end a situation in 5 or 6 shots you are over estimating your skills. My best friend was a LA County Deputy = very intense training, he was militay prior to this, he knows how to use a firearm and is dead on at a range. However when he had to shoot in a real SD situation only one of his 6 rounds out of his 357 ( this was about 14 years ago when they could carry 357 guns but only with 38 +p rounds) actually hit the bad guy. You can knock him all you want, until you have had a BG point a gun at you and you hear the bullets flying by your head you don't know how accurate you are going to be. This is greatly multiplied if there is more than one BG. Sorry I carry a high capacity auto because of it's round count, and carrying a secondary gun {not a BUG) has nothing to do with my primary weapon.

BikerRN
September 28, 2007, 08:04 AM
Just scanning the thread and noticed most folks using or carrying bugs are using an auto for a primary. I'm a revolver CCW, .357 SP101, exercise it often, don't see a need for a number 2. I also believe if I can't settle a gunfight in 4 shots or less, I'm the looser.

I hate to say this, but with that outlook YOU ALREADY LOST!

If I am ever in an "armed encounter" again I will be fighting and taking the fight to the assailant, like I did in the past. Now, don't misunderstand me, taking the fight to the assailant could very well, and most likely does mean, getting behind cover. I carry revolvers because I like them, but because I have two of them I have almost as much firepower as someone with an autoloader.

When I am fighting because I am in fear of my life I get very MAD! That is what I mean by "taking the fight to the assailant". How dare they try to harm me! As far as being "Dead Eye Dick" don't count on it. If it happens, great. Chances are you will miss more than you hit, just a "statistical" fact.

As far as one gun for carry goes, ask yourself what you would do if your arm was otherwise occupied? Your Primary hand/arm is busy deflecting a knife. Now what are you going to do to stop the threat? Your SP101 is a great weapon, but a little on the small side for my taste. I carry a 4" N-Frame because if the SHTF again I want every advantage I can get. My BUG is a little J-Frame.

The revolver is not an advantage, IMHO, I just like them and I'm vain enough to think they are "cool", also, I do shoot them better by a small margin.

Biker

mavracer
September 28, 2007, 09:18 AM
My best friend was a LA County Deputy = very intense training, he was militay prior to this, he knows how to use a firearm and is dead on at a range. However when he had to shoot in a real SD situation only one of his 6 rounds out of his 357 ( this was about 14 years ago when they could carry 357 guns but only with 38 +p rounds) actually hit the bad guy. You can knock him all you want, until you have had a BG point a gun at you and you hear the bullets flying by your head you don't know how accurate you are going to be.
when the SHTF you are reduced to your level of training.you have obviously given in to the fact that you don't think you'll be able to hit the BG on demand so you are going to spray and pray.no matter what your shooting where your shooting the absolute fastest way to get 2 hits is with 2 shots.train yourself to aim.

RandyB
September 28, 2007, 10:32 AM
Sometimes your BUG may not be needed by you, but by someone else. I was deer hunting (with a bow) at a friends and stopped by his house to say howdy, when all H*ll breaks loose just doen wht county road form his house. He had a problem with poachers and went to investigate. I went with him and he promptly produced his backup, a 4 inch .357, pointed out where the extra ammo was and said "Your backing me up right?" It was nice being able to back him up with something a bit better than a compound bow.

meef
September 28, 2007, 10:55 AM
I finally just quit carrying my back up gun.

That annoying and incessant beeping whenever I was using it just got to be too much to put up with.

:cool:

Inner Monkey
September 28, 2007, 12:10 PM
I carry a back-up gun or second gun 99% of the time.

Erik
September 28, 2007, 08:32 PM
I do not believe people need to carry a BUG to be reasonably prepared for every day carry.

That said I don't raise my eyebrows at folks who choose to do so.

That's for "a" BUG; my eyebrows begin to go up at three guns for most people in most circumstances.

NCHornet
September 28, 2007, 09:36 PM
Quote:
My best friend was a LA County Deputy = very intense training, he was militay prior to this, he knows how to use a firearm and is dead on at a range. However when he had to shoot in a real SD situation only one of his 6 rounds out of his 357 ( this was about 14 years ago when they could carry 357 guns but only with 38 +p rounds) actually hit the bad guy. You can knock him all you want, until you have had a BG point a gun at you and you hear the bullets flying by your head you don't know how accurate you are going to be.

when the SHTF you are reduced to your level of training.you have obviously given in to the fact that you don't think you'll be able to hit the BG on demand so you are going to spray and pray.no matter what your shooting where your shooting the absolute fastest way to get 2 hits is with 2 shots.train yourself to aim.
__________________


You obviously missed the point of my post. Let me make it very clear I don't believe in spray and pray type shooting. Sounds to me that you believe shooting a BG in a real SD situation will be just like shooting Bin Ladan on your paper targets, guess what? It ain't even close to the same, so unless you want to practice with somebody shooting back at you, you can never fully prepare yourself for a SD situation.I have had to use my sidearm to defend my life and it is very hard to explain what transpired in those few seconds that seemed like hours, your peripheral version is gone, everything moves in slow motion, sound perception is totally lost, and your hearing is muted, all this combined with a huge dump of adrenaline. I have never obtained this while target shooting, have you? My point was that practice is very important and you can be the best bullseye shooter in the west, but under a real SD situation you may not be able to hit a pie plate a 7 yards. Again I can't even come close to the way it really feels. I believe that practicing is important, especially drawing the weapon and reloads, these actions need to be comitted to muscle memory, as there is no time in a SD situation to think about what you are doing, and doing so could cost you some serious pain. I hope others didn't read what you did into my post, and I doubt they did as nobody else replied in such a ridiculous manner.

mavracer
September 28, 2007, 10:32 PM
You obviously missed the point of my post.
I don't think so.
Sounds to me that you believe shooting a BG in a real SD situation will be just like shooting Bin Ladan on your paper targets, guess what?
actually I belive if you practice drawing and firing aimed shots with a timer (like the ones used in IDPA/IPSC) enough thats exactly what it will be.
My point was that practice is very important
I reread your first post twice I did not see a reference to practice.you said As a matter of fact if I carried a wheeler you bet I would have a secondary pocket pistol because in a SD situation you will loose fine motor skills and it would be much quicker to draw a second weapon than reload. You think you can end a situation in 5 or 6 shots you are over estimating your skills.
My point is your also not going to end any situation if your first 5 or 6 shots miss.the majority of confrontations are less than 6 rounds.

Sorry I carry a high capacity auto because of it's round count,
and I am also sorry,because I would still rather see you say "I carry a high capacity auto because I shoot it well"

koja48
September 29, 2007, 12:22 AM
Strong-side & weak-side & I shoot equally well from both sides . . . color me alive & to-date, unharmed . . . I intend to stay that way. I prefer to have more options than a BG does.

shooting on a shoestring
September 29, 2007, 12:24 AM
Yep, I know motor skills deteriorate in a fight. I can't keep them from it by applying high capcity magazines, lighting fast reloads or deploying bugs. I can have a dramatic affect on them by applying training. For me (and everyone is different) I predict a factor of 10. If I want my fighting shots to be in a 10 inch circle, my practice shots had better be in a 1 inch circle. As a lifelong revolver shooter, I don't approach my training with the idea of getting multiple shots if I miss. I train to hit mulitiple targets (usually 4, 4" square swinging targets) quickly. Hitting the first time is what I believe is most important.

Every monkey has his own swing. Its a free country, well sorta. So carry, shoot, train the way you want to bet your life, and may you never have to prove yourself.

Elm Creek Smith
September 29, 2007, 03:21 AM
If I have to loan a gun to someone to back me up, I still want a backup. That's why I mostly carry three.

ECS

NCHornet
September 29, 2007, 02:59 PM
Mavracer,
It is perfectly clear to me that you have never been in a SD situation where you had to draw your weapon.
You have stated that you believe your timed IDPA practice is the same as a SD situation. Tell me this, when is the last time one of those IDPA targets shot back at you, caught you by surprise etc.....? I hope you never have to draw your weapon in this type of situation, but if you do you will quickly learn that your body reacted in a manner that it had never done before.
Let me say for the record that I believe in training and lots of it. The more movements that you can store in muscle memory the better off you will be. The more time you have to take and think about what you are doing the more time the BG has to be on top of you. there are many forms of training, this can be drawing your weapon in your living room, practicing reloads in the bedroom and all sorts of firing exercises that all help, but there remains no way to 100% replicate what happens to our bodies defense systems during a SD situation. Those that have been in this situation will understand and agree with what I am stating.

mavracer
September 29, 2007, 03:42 PM
Hornet,
Look, you may now want to say training is important,and I agree.yes I have had to draw my gun,luckily that was enough,but my draw and sight picture happened just like it had 10,000 times before.
you may have not ment to but your first post is clear.you said your friend with all the training only connected 1 for 6,so your worried that in the heat of battle your motor skills will not be good enough so you feel the need to carry a high cap gun.
now that you wan't to agree that training is the only thing you can do to prepare.I'll be done because we are hijacking the thread.
as to tho OP I don't think of it as a BUG or just extra ammo so much as more options for drawing with either hand.

koja48
September 29, 2007, 03:57 PM
I carry 2 so I can use either hand . . . not because my 1911 is unreliable. I shoot both at least weekly & have the utmost of confidence in them & me. My second is a semi-auto, also . . . I find them more comfortable to carry. Point is, carry that with which you are proficient & take the necessary time get proficient. Defending yourself if the SHTF needs to be an instinctive reaction & that comes with much practice.

Alfadog
September 29, 2007, 04:26 PM
I wonder how many who do not carry a second gun have ever tried to draw their carry gun with their other hand. Try it some time. You don't need a timer to realize how slow it is. Then try some one hand malfunction clearance drills just for fun. Pretty eye opening.

Plus, the other advantage of a second gun is that if someone asks you if you are carrying a gun, you can say "No, I'm not carrying A gun."

S&Wfan
September 30, 2007, 01:14 AM
Mavracer wrote:

Hornet,
Look, you may now want to say training is important,and I agree.yes I have had to draw my gun,luckily that was enough,but my draw and sight picture happened just like it had 10,000 times before.
you may have not ment to but your first post is clear.you said your friend with all the training only connected 1 for 6,so your worried that in the heat of battle your motor skills will not be good enough so you feel the need to carry a high cap gun . . .

Everything goes out the window when the BG is shooting at you.

Kyle was in our gun club, and a very, very good pistol shot (unlike many LEOs). He was also on an elite team of deputy sheriffs in our county that patrolled the interstate outside of town for drug runners and such. Friendly, caring . . . and confident.

His big mistake was probably trusting his skills on his full size Glock .40S&W too much, for when this event happened, he passed at grabbing the 12 guage in the front of his crusier.

Kyle was shot ten times, hit in both arms and legs, shot in the butt . . . he took a couple of others in his chest, with one getting inside his body armor. As bullets lance his body, over and over, he's painful screams are heard via his uniform-mounted camera.

Yep . . . our fine motor skill control goes out the window. He never gave up and kept fighting, somehow even lifting his handgun to fire at his attacker as the attacker ran back to his truck for more ammo for his M1.

How he kept in the fight, with legs and arms shot is beyond me. Would a BUG have helped. After being shot some, he's heard to say, "Shoot, shoot, gun down!" Maybe so, for his Glock is now of no use to him. It's probably hard to reload when you are shot in the arms and your main gun is down.

Maybe a BUG would have saved his life at that point. Unfortunately, the killer reloaded and returned, attacking military style. Finally, and just still barely in camera, the killer can be seen carefully aiming for his final "killing" shot to Kyle's head, as he shouts "Die Mother_____." Mercifully, Kyle is off camera.

Kyle was a great pistol shot, but he lost this fight, and left behind a young wife, an 18 month old child, and had learned that day that they were expecting their second.

Kyle has been gone almost ten years now. He was just 22 years old. Yep, this outstanding handgunner discovered too late how things change when someone is intent on killing you.

WATCH THIS VIDEO, if you have the stomach. Thank God that Kyle is out of view of his cruiser's dash mounted camera. This video is now used to train LEOs across the country and has surely saved some lives of some LEOs. I'm sure Kyle would have been pleased that it has. WARNING: THIS VIDEO CAN BE VERY DISTURBING TO MANY PEOPLE, so most should avoid watching it. However, this video may save the lives of others in so doing. But please, use discression.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1364316137

The murderer is on death row . . . a Vietnam veteran who just snapped.

Kyle managed to gut shoot his killer once with his .40S&W . . . to no serious effect.

There's no such thing as too many guns or ammo. Kyle had his Glock 22 and three more high cap. magazines. It still wasn't enough for a crazed vet with an M1 carbine!

IMHO, carrying a BUG ain't zackly a bad idea. Equally as important, we don't need to ever get so confident of our handgun skills to where we feel that we can handle any situation as if it were a benign range competiton.

Food for thought.

Rexster
September 30, 2007, 10:24 AM
The deputy, may he rest in peace, was a good guy, but a back-up gun has nothing to do with this scenario. When the moment comes, a good guy needs to act, and he hesitated to do what needed to be done when he still had the advantage.

Rexster
September 30, 2007, 10:28 AM
This video has been studied up, down, and sideways by LE trainers for several years now. I truly wish the deputy would have prevailed. He was, by all indications, an excellent peace officer, who made a serious error in judgement. We usually survive our first few such encounters, by luck or providence, until we become hardened enough to turn off the nice guy part of us when needed.

S&Wfan
September 30, 2007, 12:18 PM
Yes, a real tragedy. He was a nice guy, not willing to end the life of another . . . and not understanding that other people would have no problem ending his.

Then again, this same scenario applies to virtually all of us, both LEO and private citizens. When does the point come during a hostile situation when we need to actually shoot the BG before he begins shooting at us.

Naturally, there's no clear-cut answer to this troubling question, especially for private citizens of course.

Kyle's folks still own the local bowling alley and, for years provided bowling pins for the clubs pin matches. They are good people and they raised a good son.

T.

Rexster
September 30, 2007, 02:49 PM
The deputy could also have gotten into his patrol car and honorably retreated, to wait for back-up. He had the time. Once the bad guy has signaled his hostility, and started reaching into his vehicle, ignoring commands, it is time to change the equation, one way or another. I don't want to derail this thread with off-topic subject matter, which should probably go into Strategies and Tactics in its own thread. As I recall, there was a window of something like 15+ seconds in which the deputy could have justifiably used lethal force, before the bad guy actually got his weapon into action. During part of that time, furtive moves by the bad guy were a clue a weapon was about to be deployed, and then the weapon itself became visible for a period of time before it was fired. This not being a law enforcement forum, and out of respect for the deputy, I don't want to discuss what I would have done in this scenario, or start a Monday morning quarterbacking session.

Erik
September 30, 2007, 04:18 PM
As mentioned, the analysis of Deputy Dinkheller's slaying is taught across the land in law enforcement settings. The lessons learned were, as with many things in the proffession, learned the hard way. That said, there isn't a BUG chapter in any of the lesson plans I'm familiar with. Why not? A BUG wouldn't likley have altered the outcome.

Anyway, the threads not about the transition form a low risk to a high risk vehicle stop, what a particular deputy did well or wrong, or whether a BUG introduced near the end of events would have mattered or not in his surviving a very bad situation. I don't see the situation or analysis as relevant.

The threads about what the average person going about his or her average day "needs." I say you don't "need" a BUG, two, or more. I'm not saying don't carry them, mind you, just that you don't "need" them.

I'm very interested in situations or analyses were BUGs were used given the thread's context. I'm as yet unaware of any. Any articles, videos, or "let me tell you what happened" stories?

Best - Erik

mavracer
September 30, 2007, 05:55 PM
S&WFAN wrote
Everything goes out the window when the BG is shooting at you.
ok I've read your post and don't understand your reference to my post.
now I have not seen the video you referenced.but reading your account and the accounts of the others, I fail to understand, with all respect for the fallen officer,why you would reference my post.I don't see where round count would have helped the officer.tactics and accuracy would have from all accounts he waited too long,waiting til your outgunned is not good tactics.
There's no such thing as too many guns or ammo. Kyle had his Glock 22 and three more high cap. magazines. It still wasn't enough for a crazed vet with an M1 carbine!
and my contention is while round count is nice,it shouldn't be part of your tactics.
now I'm going to put my flame retardant suit on because I understand that animals don't shoot back.when I first started hunting my father gave me a singleshot and I learned to make the first shot count.now even though I hunt with an auto my goal is the same make the first shot count.I have also read a little from guys who have survived a few gun battles and the make your shots count mentality I have is sound.high cap and backups are a poor crutch if you dont mak each shot count.
I hope that none of us ever have to fire shots in anger,but for the love of god go into life with a attatude,us good guys need a little bad guy mindset make the other F***** pay HIT THEM.

Strings
October 1, 2007, 06:56 PM
Personally, when law allows (I'm in WI), I'll carry 2 or more. Not out of a paranoid worry that my primary will fail, but to ensure that I can get at a gun when/if need arises...

I have my 1911 at 4 o'clock IWB. When sitting, I am unable to reach it... so the Smith K frame goes off-side, slightly canted for cross-draw. From that position, I can draw it with either hand quite easily...

My "always" gun is a Seecamp .32. The ideal gun for self-defense? No... but I stand with my hands in my pockets regularly anyway...

Others can be added as clothing/setting dictate (a .38 in a coat pocket during the winter, ferinstance)...

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