[DaveB]

Regarding the dog shooter:

A few posters have called the officer’s training into question. Unfortunately, I think that the officer was acting according to his 'training' - his own Dept. has stated that he was following procedure. Here’s the real problem: Police Departments have become militarized.

This has implications.

Hardening of the us-vs-them attitude (with us=LEOs and them=everybody else). A corollary of this is the military way of thinking: the individual's primary loyalty is to his buddy and his unit. This means that LEOs protect their own, sometimes at the expense of protecting those they are supposed to serve (see Columbine).

The LEO mindset that views all interactions with civilians as potentially dangerous: allowing the LEOs to demand compliance, to expect it, and to react with force whenever they don't get the level of submission they expect.

The readiness to use overwhelming force (SWAT) at the slightest provocation.

The idea that Cops are employed to serve the people is out of fashion. Were I so inclined, I might claim that LEOs are employed to serve power. Their own, and the Government's.

db

[TheeBadOne]

alienation

Main Entry: alien·ation
Pronunciation: "A-lE-&-'nA-sh&n, "Al-y&-
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : a withdrawing or separation of a person or a person's affections from an object or position of former attachment : ESTRANGEMENT <alienation ... from the values of one's society and family -- S. L. Halleck>
-----------------------------------------

Food for thought. If 1% of the cops are the problem, what about the other 99%. When they visit boards all they see are threads about how bad the cops are, how corupt, evil, etc. Wonder how they feel after unending attacks on themselves? They are lumped in with the 1% and cursed and dismissed. All the police threads do have a high view rate, and they are all negative. With 99% of the officers the good guys you'd think someone (other than a cop) would post a positive thread about police. I wonder why the cops get hardened and withdrawn.....if they are always slapped in the face by "Joe citizen".....................

[Blackcloud6]

"What does the Dead Dog incident tell us about 'To Serve and Protect'? "

It tells me that no matter what, in these kinds of situations, things can go wrong.

[DaveB]

I'm guessing that I need to repeat: I do not hold the individual LEOs responsible for most cases of 'cops out of control'. It's their training, and their leadership, that need to be evaluated.

Most cops I know are decent, hardworking people, who do it (police work) because it needs to be done.

The few that I have known who were in it for the power are the exceptions.

db

[Airwolf]

I think your post hits the nail on the head.

This country is so divided, not along race lines (although there's that too) but between the "commoners" and the "elite". Falling into the latter category are LEO's of all types, Government "officials" (bureaucrats with power), elected officials and the media/entertainment types.

Everyone else falls into the former category.

Incidents like this just illustrate that there is a ticking time bomb in our society. What event or combination of events eventually triggers that bomb? I don’t know but I’m more convinced than ever that it will go off.

That’s one of the primary reasons I plan to get out of Kalifornia as soon as possible and head to rural Washington or Idaho. The LAST place I want to be is in a heavily urban area surrounded by complacent (and compliant) sheep when TSHTF.

To quote from one of my favorite series:

"No boom?"
"No boom."
"No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here. Boom, sooner or later. BOOM!"

:evil:

[ahenry]

If 1% of the cops are the problem, what about the other 99%. When they visit boards all they see are threads about how bad the cops are, how corupt, evil, etc. Wonder how they feel after unending attacks on themselves? They are lumped in with the 1% and cursed and dismissed. All the police threads do have a high view rate, and they are all negative. With 99% of the officers the good guys you'd think someone (other than a cop) would post a positive thread about police. I wonder why the cops get hardened and withdrawn.....if they are always slapped in the face by "Joe citizen".....................

I once belonged to an organization whose members were far and away excellent individuals. The vast, vast majority of the members were the right sort of folks. A few “bad apples”, which I would define as more misguided than actually bad people, really tarnished the image of the whole group. It behooved me, and I think it behooves police departments, to consider this alienation and why it happens. In my experience, only rarely is a person or group wrongly estranged. There are times when improvement is called for, and the less a person is able to take such criticism, the less I want that person in authority...over anybody.

[Art Eatman]

Drifting off from the dog-thing for a moment, I know of no other occupation where the workforce has to deal with as much lying, shucking and jiving, and being reviled as do LEOs. It's amazing that so many are able to maintain any sort of positive attitude about serving and protecting.

And, yeah, all it takes is a very small number of bad-news incidents for *all* the Good Guys to get dissed.

A cop's gotta make a decision in a split-second that some folks take weeks and months to second-guess with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.

This doesn't mean that there should be no accountability for an attack of stoopiditis, of course. However, it's usually the local, elected politicos who do the stone-walling...

Art

[El Tejon]

It's not about the dog. The dog was just a dog. The problem allegedly was to stop these people in the first place.

It's about hysteria of the "soccermommies" to "do something." It's about attempts of the politicians to turn the police from professional witnesses into Platonic Guardians.

[DeltaElite]

It tells me that aggressive dogs get shot.
I won't get bit for anybody.
That was a messed up situation, but the officer was correct in eliminating the dog that was threatening him and others.

[Marko Kloos]

That was a messed up situation, but the officer was correct in eliminating the dog that was threatening him and others.

DeltaElite,

the LEOs put themselves into that situation by omission. They saw the dogs in the car, they didn't close the doors when repeatedly asked by the owners, and then they automatically assumed "hostile dog" when the pooch jumped out. Most any dog would have left the car with the doors left open, especially when its were outside and still in plain view. Anybody who fails to grasp that situation does not have very good situational awareness and analysis skills.

But that's OK...in this day and age, a dude can pull a wallet and get plugged with forty-odd rounds, and someone will still maintain that the officers on the scene didn't do a thing wrong. Overzealous and aggressive enforcement combined with the "one tool fits all" attitude just serves to cause incidents like this one.

Did the officers at the traffic stop have aural exclusion, refusing to listen to the owner's repeated requests to close the car doors? They were in full "felony arrest" mode, where the only proper response to an arrestee's utterance seems to be "Shut up".

The alienation between the Commoners and the increasingly aggressive and militarized police is increasing at a rapid pace. I have a great deal of respect for my local LEOs, and I concede that 90% of all cops are good and upstanding civil servants. Criticism of individual officers or police actions is not "cop bashing". I am honestly concerned about the increased rift between Joe Citizen and the LEOs. Once upon a time, cops were citizens with a badge...now it increasingly feels like they're masters instead of civil servants. Whatever you do when on duty..if it's not on the evening news and impossible to spin, the Blue Wall of Silence will shield you.

The majority of LEOs, the ones who are not power-tripping and not fortified with the mindset of "going into battle" at the beginning of each shift...those LEOs are done a great disservice by the lack of accountability attitudes displayed by the minority sometimes.

[DeltaElite]

Yawn.
I never said that they shouldn't have shut the door, all I said was that an aggressive dog gets shot.
Also, from what I read of that situation, I would have handled it very differently, but since I wasn't there I won't elaborate.
BTW, the Diallo shooters did plenty wrong, IMHO. It seems they never heard of a flashlight or target identification.

The rest of your post towards me is just a post to air you gripes towards Leo's in general. Trust me, I am a commoner also.
I am glad I provided you with yet another venue to vent your frustrations and personal complaints. :neener:

[Zander]

...all I said was that an aggressive dog gets shot. If the dog was so darn aggressive, why did it sit passively in the car until the trooper ["I got a dog in here."] stuck his head in?

But all of this analysis on the supposed "aggressiveness" of the dog ignores the most basic question:

What the heck was this officer [and I use the term lightly] doing in this mix with his oh-so-tactical shotgun in hand?

I want to hear the THP tape that verifies that Officer Goober was responding to a request for backup. I don't believe it happened. Do I believe that the contention is part of an attempted coverup by the brass? You bet I do...

And I have a RIGHT to know...that fool is going to be burning my tax dollars to settle a lawsuit that never should have happened.

I won't get bit for anybody.Officer Goober couldn't have gotten bit if he'd stayed at the Sonic with his buds. He wasn't needed; he was in the way and precipitated a terrible incident because he was either ill-trained or out of control or both. If I were on that force, I wouldn't want him anywhere near me...especially with a shotgun in his hands. It's obvious he can't be trusted to have a cool head under the lightest of stress.

[DeltaElite]

Do you feel better now that you got to vent?

Watch the tape, the dog was coming aggressively towards him.
True the situation was preventable, but that doesn't change whether or not the dog was aggressive, or at what point during the encouter the dog became aggressive.

Your assumptions that the officer was not requested and should not have been there, just show your basic distrust and contempt for the Le involved.
He was probably there, because it was the closest thing to a hot call he has been to in weeks.
Is his name Ofc Goober? Or is that just another way to dehumanize the Ofc and empower you on a personal level?
You seem to have some issues, that I am not going to be able to help you with. :neener:

Is the brass at that PD putting a spin on everything? Sure they are, all brass lie, they lie so often that they don't know when they are telling the truth anymore.
I do find it odd that the brass is backing the officer, we don't get that where I am, they always hang us out on a limb. :banghead:

[ojibweindian]

..."To Serve and Protect?"

That's it's okay to have your family treated like s*** and have your pet shot because of a misplaced wallet.

Seems like others here think the same thing.

Beginning to seriously consider booby trapping my home and car for just such an eventuality.

[DeltaElite]

Since this topic is running in two threads, I will repeat myself here.

Yanno, I am still not seeing why a "felony stop" was done at all.
Oh well, that's why I don't trust cops, even though I am one.

[El Tejon]

lend, perhaps shooting of the animal was symptomatic of something else, perhaps it was self-defence. I know people get upset over animals being destroyed more than humans so emotion over critters or property clutters the issue.

But the real problem is pulling the family over to begin with. The problem is that police have been transmorgified into "mobile saviours" instead of the eyes, ears, and hands of the prosecutor by silly politicians seeking the vote of a soccermommie who see their government as their husband.

The only way to conclude that a lost wallet is evidence of a robbery commited by the owner of the wallet is to buy into the hysteria of the soccermommie. The "dead dog" is symptomatic of the Nanny State that wants "safety" at the expense of liberty.

[Boats]

"Serve and Protect?"

Looks to me like "serve" left the scene during the WOD and "protect" is becoming increasingly suspect.

When I saw the video from Tennessee one of the things that flashed across my mind is "Look white America, you're getting a taste of the guilty until proven innocent treatment that even many middle class blacks and latinos complain of."

If that stop in Tennessee is so uncomfortable to so many people, perhaps the entire police/public relationship needs to be rebalanced in favor of leaving people alone for the ticky-tack stuff or at least not having them chew gravel without a clearly confirmed danger.

My father, who was a judge, was no weeping liberal, but he did not brook the police misuse of authority either. One of my favorite sayings of his I once heard him say to a police officer who hadn't bothered to get a warrant was this: "Son if you want policing to be easy, move to North Korea." His order suppressing evidence was never appealed by the state.

Any officer who complains about having to show the public too much deference should be shown the door.

[DaveB]

From //prorev.com...

One of the best descriptions of the proper role of a law enforcement officer was that delivered by Alexander Hamilton to the first group of officers of the Revenue Marine, later the US Coast Guard. Said Hamilton:

"While I recommend in the strongest terms to the respective officers, activity, vigilance and firmness, I feel no less solicitude that their deportment may be marked with prudence, moderation and good temper. . . They will bear in mind that their countrymen are freemen, and as such are impatient of everything that bears the least mark of domineering spirit. They will, therefore refrain, with the most guarded circumspection, from whatever has the semblance of hautiness, rudeness or insult. If obstacles occur, they will remember that they are under the particular protection of the laws and they can meet with nothing disagreeable in the execution of their duty which these will not severely reprehend. . . This reflection, and regard to the good of the service, will prevent at all times a spirit of irritation or resentment. They will endeavor to overcome difficulties, if any are experienced, by a cool and temperate perseverance in their duty -- by address and moderation rather than by vehemence and violence."

This is a nice way of saying that citizens should be treated respectfully.

db

[dave]

"Food for thought. If 1% of the cops are the problem, what about the other 99%. When they visit boards all they see are threads about how bad the cops are, how corupt, evil, etc. Wonder how they feel after unending attacks on themselves? They are lumped in with the 1% and cursed and dismissed. All the police threads do have a high view rate, and they are all negative. With 99% of the officers the good guys you'd think someone (other than a cop) would post a positive thread about police. I wonder why the cops get hardened and withdrawn.....if they are always slapped in the face by "Joe citizen"....................." by TheeBadOne




My Granddad once told me something I've never forgotten;

Son, if they're going to hang you as a horse thief, then go ahead and steal the horse"


I sit here asking myself why I don't just "go ahead and steal the horse". Self doesn't have much to say.

"People get the type of police they deserve". If you don't know who said that or what it means, it most likely proves my point.


But then I remember, all gun owners are stupid, crazy, uneducated malcontents, just waiting for a chance to kill children because they can't handle living in a world where, without their guns, they would go unnoticed. And now I'm happy once more.

[Daniel T]

Art:

Drifting off from the dog-thing for a moment, I know of no other occupation where the workforce has to deal with as much lying, shucking and jiving, and being reviled as do LEOs.

Why does this suprise you? What other occupation can legally separate you from your life or freedom?

[TarpleyG]

If the ossifer had half a brain and knew anything at all about dogs outside what he reads/sees/hears in the media, this wouldn't have happened. I saw the video and the dog looked anything but aggressive to me. A 180 lb man with buckshot against a 50 lb dog with teeth is hardly a fair fight. If he bites, then shoot him. If the officer had been alone in that situation and could not have been rescued by his partner in case of attack it might have been different. Also, why not just close the doors like the owner's asked. There were a couple of officers there to handle that little task.

Not knock LEOs and my best friend is one and I considered it for a while, but in my town, whenever there is a traffic stop, every squad in the cuty is there for it. This tells me that 1) they need more to keep them busy or less patrol, or 2) they are scared of thier own shadow. I live in a suburb of Ft. Lauderdale and about the only crimes that occur are the local kids breaking stuff or shoplifting.

Being a cop is all about discretion and judgement. This cop, with his 12 ga pump, did not excercise any "good" discretion or "good" judgement IMO. I would have no sooner pulled the trigger on that dog as I would have on a person approaching me the same way. The dog was cleary displaying a friendly attitude from the video. Maybe the cop just panicked, I don't know. It's sad that it happened.

GT

[Selfdfenz]

If the passengers of cars stopped at some time in the future on Tenn. Hwys. follow the standard greeting ritual of the THP it will go like this:

1.THP crusier lights up the civilian vech
2.Civilian auto pulls to the side of the road and stops, crusier pulls up behind it
3.Civilian occupant notices the THP patrol car contain one or more THP officers.
4. Civilain occupant announces to other passengers we have a THP Officer here
5. THP steps from the patrol vech. aimlessly circles the area on foot briefly and
6. Civilain occupant shoots THP officer in the head an kills him instantly
7. Other passengers handcuff other Officer(s) at gunpoint and call for additional civilian backup.

On review of the film footage statments to the point that procedurers were being followed are made public.

Sounds foolish and unreasonable, does it not?
Just like the original.

The cop(s) screwed up.
If you are comfortable letting LEO "determine" what is and isn't an aggressive dog by sight alone, and then shoot the ones they don't like, you should be ok with them shooting people on the side of the road if they look like they "might" have committed a crime.
This has nothing to do with training. The Officer was using poor/no judgement and making an assessment he was unqualified to make.
In cases of litigation of dog bites/attacks, animal behavior experts serve as expert witnesses in court. Not COPS! LEO often are placed on the stand but seldom are they considered or admitted as Experts of anything! I would love to have this Bozo on the stand.
No trial lawyers can be found that are are too nasty or dishonest to rip every cent they can out of the THP for this. They will sure get paid!

I hope they fire this "officer" twice. Another one for the Annals of the JBTs of America.

S-

[DaveB]

This has nothing to do with training. The Officer was using poor/no judgement and making an assessment he was unqualified to make.

That's what training is supposed to be about: making the cops aware of what they can (and can not) do in forseeable situations.

Of course the cop's judgement was bad/absent here, but the ultimate responsibility for his actions rests with his superiors.

I don't want to see anybody burned at the stake. I do want to see some acknowledgement that when someone 'follows procedure' and bad things happen because of it, there is some reexamination of the procedure.

Isn't that what makes (some of) us adults - that we learn from our mistakes?

db

[DeltaElite]

Training varies greatly from agency to agency.
Cookeville is a town of about 24,000 people so I am guessing they have about 20 or so cops.

So how much training do they really get?

What was the training, if any for that particular situation?

Here's a link that shows the history of their chief.
Porno and Overtime Fraud (http://www.putnampit.com/cops/pornoring.html)

I am not betting that Cookeville PD is on the cutting edge of training. ;)

[DaveB]

Delta, I'll agree that you have a point. However,

my home town is roughly half as big as Cookville and, if I know the people that train our PD and SO as well I as I think I do, the level of trainig here is second to none - isn't this a State (CO vs. TN) question, anyway?

In any case, if you're right, and Cookville (and TN) can't afford comprehensive LEO training...

How, in God's name, can they then give these people guns and send them out to control the rest of us???

db

[DeltaElite]

I dunno Dave, I dunno. They send em out and hope for the best. Pretty scary yanno.
Sometimes small agencies get the best training, due to federal funding and such. You can send a small group of cops to training at a small price.
Sometimes they don't.

From the internal problems with that agencies chief, I am doubtful the troops are getting good training.

[rock jock]

What does the Dead Dog incident tell us about 'To Serve and Protect'?
When generalizing, nothing. About those particular cops, not too concerned with serving or protecting.

[Tim Burke]

Watch the tape, the dog was coming aggressively towards him.

I watched the tape. The dog comes out of the car and prances out of view to the right. From what you could see of the dog, he didn't look aggressive at all. He came right by the officer standing in the door of the vehicle who had just said, "We've got a dog in here." Didn't bite him, though.
The full video is reported (http://www.newschannel5.com/news/0301/08/dog.htm) to include the family asking for the doors to be shut. When I read the 2 initial news reports, written by the same reporter, with an account from the family's perspective and an account from the police officers' perspective, I noted that the family's account had the "ring of truth." I also noted that the family's repeated request that the doors be shut to contain the dogs was not mentioned in the police version of events. Now, apparently, there is corroboration that they did in fact make such a request. I wonder why the police didn't address this in their report. It was clear from the initial police version that they had some familiarity with the charges that the Smoak family had leveled at them, as they did address the charge that the "officer" that had shot the dog had smiled about it later, even after it had become clear that this wasn't a dangerous gang of outlaws, but an innocent family on a vacation. Now the above story gives an explanation that the doors weren't shut because "it was a felony stop and the trooper could have potentially been in the line of fire." The tape clearly shows that there is an officer standing right at the door, bent over, looking into the car, commenting that there is, in fact, a dog in the car. Closing the door would not have put this officer into any line of fire that he wasn't already in. That explanation is clearly bogus. Whether it's a due to ignorance or malice I can't prove, but it looks to me that the Smoak family version of the shooting is pretty close to reality, and the TN LEO version smells badly.

[DeltaElite]

I wonder if the other THP cars had dashcams also?
The more video the better, because the one video I have seen, the one on the links provided in the thread, don't really show much to say that the dog was aggressive or not.
So I recant my earlier assertion that the dog was aggressive. :eek:
The actions of the officer seem to indicate that he was afraid of something, real or imagined.

No matter what, it looks like a Charlie Foxtrot, all on the word of someone on a cell phone. :rolleyes:

[JPM70535]

I have sat back and read all the replys to this thread and I just have to put in my 2 cents worth.

Shooting the dog was an over reaction to a situation that need noy have occurred. All that needed to be done was for an Officer to have closed the blankety blank car door.

The Felony stop seems to have been conducted according to proper procedures, based on the information available to the LEOs involved. The major fault seems to have been in the information given to them prior to the stop.

Part of the problem lies in the mindset of todays LEOs. Through the miracles of television and Video games, they are bombarded with what I like to call the SWAT mentality, where every incident is a potential disaster that can only be resolved with overwhelming force. This used to be called the John Wayne syndrome or more recently the Dirty Harry Syndrome

The leadership of most Departments is oriented towards pro-active law enforcement rather than the reactive mindset of years gone by. This is in turn brought on by pressure from Politicos concerned with securing reelection by appeasing their constituants. The result is pressure placed on the LEO on patrrol to produce results that will reflect a reduction in crime making said politicos look good.

Combine all the above factors and the results of the Tenn. incident are almost predictable.

[Baba Louie]

My $.02 on this thread...

Lesson learned by Baba Louie regarding this (and other threads, same topic)

Keep your wallet in your possession.

When traveling with dogs, keep them under your control (we use a dog seat belt harness).

Avoid TN/Cookeville if possible?;)

Like any profession, police depts. get the bad with the good.

We could be talking medicine here and medical malpractice is now a way of life in America. Hard to prove tho' unless you get another medical expert to testify against one another.

If I understand correctly, the officer in question has been reassigned other dutys. You can expect both THP and Cookeville PD training and 911 dispatch procedures to come under a magnifying glass in the very near future. You can expect Office Hall(?) and his family to be broken financially.

Maybe that's a good thing? Some here are ready to cast the first stone.

In Las Vegas, Tuesday evenings are LVMPD command center open house nights. If your town, county, etc, have something like that, go to it and discuss this event with your local friendly professional police department. If your local dept. doesn't have an open house night and you're REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS EVENT, help them by volunteering to start an open house. Get your kids involved as well.

If your Dept. has a Citizen's Academy (LV Metro and NLV PD do), sign up for a class.

Become part of the solution, make a new friend who wears a uniform and has to deal with situations like this (shoot or no shoot), go for a ride-along or three.

If you just want to sit here and tell the world how sorry our police dept's have become, I guess that's OK too.

In the meantime, 500,000 Americans are in the middle eastern asia area about to do something large and loud with unknown numbers of potential WIA/KIA.

Put this in perspective, everyone learn from it what you can or will and I'll hope that we all try to continue walking the proverbial high road.

Sorry. Had to get the rant out. It's only worth the $.02, if that.

Adios

[TallPine]

In the meantime, 500,000 Americans are in the middle eastern asia area about to do something large and loud with unknown numbers of potential WIA/KIA.

Put this in perspective,

My perspective is why are we bothering to go to war with some tin pot dicatator ... to protect our right to become a police state?

[riverdog]

all on the word of someone on a cell phone. I've got a cell phone, but I've tried to stick to the facts when talking to 911 operators. One time while driving south down 163 I saw an accident in the northbound lanes, (car laying on its roof) with no LE on scene. Dialed 911 and then passed another accident in the southbound lane around a curve with LE present. 911 answered and I informed the 911 operator about the accident in the northbound lane and she mentioned that LE were on scene at which point I let her know that there were two accident scenes and that LE was only present at one of them and that it looked like a family was standing on the shoulder of the northbound lane with their car on its roof. LE didn't know there were two accidents. Anyway, these were facts. I didn’t try to explain how the car came to be on its roof and that they were driving too fast when they hit that curve and physics being what they are the car ended up on its roof ... LE can handle determining how and why. I reported what I saw (period).

110 MPH in a Taurus wagon, how do you spell exaggeration :rolleyes:... When talking to 911 operators just stick to the facts, keep cool and minimize (zeroize) your emotional input. This lady may have been passed while dawdling along at 50MPH and when the Smoaks passed her doing 75 it may have seemed like 110, but I seriously doubt they were going that fast with two cars, one being a Taurus wagon. Then she sees money and lets her imagination run wild again.

Anyway, now THP has a report of a robbery and the getaway car doing 110MPH while headed East on I-40 and two of the robbers are in the back seat wearing Halloween dog masks, (sorry I made that last part up :)) , all on the word of a lady who really didn’t see anything but a wallet fly off the roof. So this gets relayed thru a couple dispatch centers and the next thing we have is a felony stop on a family in their Taurus wagon driving home from vacation because they lost their wallet on the highway. Is it the lady's fault? Nope, she's just a civilian who imagines things and embellishes the truth. The problem is that the 911 operator took her at her word without any corroborating information (such as someone actually reporting a robbery).

Anyway, that’s how I “imagine” the events transpired. If the lady 911 caller didn’t elevate this to felony level with her initial 911 call, then someone in LE did elevate it without any further corroborating information. I’m still a little peeved with LE for blindly accepting an anonymous phone call as grounds for probable cause to search my truck when nothing had happened. My guess is that the caller suckered them into putting all their units into an I-5 rest-stop while they were elsewhere. Here’s a hint: White pick-up trucks are a very common vehicle if not the most common vehicle in the U.S. If that’s your only indicator of the suspect vehicle, you ain’t got squat.

Warning: Some of the above is pure supposition on my part
:)

[hammer4nc]

What makes these cases so noteworthy, is that rarely, if ever, is corrective action taken. Administrative reassignment, until the thing blows over...how many times have we heard that?

In this case, police "spokesmen" still spouting procedural jibberish. Thank goodness for video...a reasonable person can see how far from the "official version" is the actual event.

Makes one think twice about police reports and PD "official statements", for other cases in which there's no "video", doesn't it?

DaveB's conclusions on the implications of "police state" mentality, are right on target, I'm sorry to say.

[Art Eatman]

A buddy of mine got a federal badge job and went through FLETC. Upon his return I asked him if he had noticed much "Us vs. Them" attitude while there. He thought for a moment, sorta puzzled at first, and then said, "Well, yeah. Yeah, there really was, come to think of it."

I dunno. What with the cop shows on TV and the various interactions between feds and locals, some guys lose sight of reality...

Demise, I rode with the first-ever Buddy Patrol deal with Austin PD in 1970. I'm not "surprised"; I saw a lot of it. What rips me out of the frame is that some twerp can be so obviously in the wrong that there's no doubt, but a bunch of bystanders start in yowling all manner of insults and BS...Some of the twerp-natter reminds me of an old Richard Pryor "bit" of the kid to his daddy, "I wasn't running in the house! It just sorta looked like I was running!"

:), Art

[CZ-75]

Cookeville is a town of about 24,000 people so I am guessing they have about 20 or so cops.


ERRR!!! WRONG!

They list 66 employees according to the local paper. Guessing that means the town uses the interstate as a big revenue generator and is a major speedtrap.

Officer Hall, normally a glorified meter maid, decided killing a dog would generate a little excitment in an otherwise dull job.

Sheriff Andy should just give these guys one bullet so they don't hurt anyone. :p

[F4GIB]

Interesting free speech item. They've closed both threads of the Smoak family incident on the CopTalk forum over at www.glocktalk.com.
If you can't take the heat, close the kitchen.

[Zander]

Do you feel better now that you got to vent? -- DeltaElite Spare me the condescension, please.

You claim to be a peace officer. Where do you work? What do you know of Tennessee Highway Patrol policy and procedure?

Further, where'd you get your training in "dog behavior"? Trained to ID a dog with a three-second exposure before you slaughter it for its "aggressive posture and actions"? Spend some more time with the tape before you offer your "expert" opinion again.

Your interest here seems two-fold:

1. To excuse the inexcusable because it involved a badge-wearer;

2. To insult those of us who disagree with your blind support of a wannabe who was unwanted, out-of-place and out of control.

Officer Goober [can't label him what he deserves and stay within forum guidelines] was the tail-end of a string of patrolmen and cars. Three THP officers on scene means at least three THP cars. Goober and his buddy only added to the roadside congestion.

But there he was, on-scene, carrying his tac-shotgun, after the misguided felony stop and after the "suspects" are cuffed and on the pavement.

He had NO business there...his help was not requested. He turned a horrible mistake into a tragedy for an innocent family, all because he was bored at the local Sonic or Taco Bell or Wendy's and couldn't resist poaching on THP radio traffic. After all, what better way to get your kicks than show up on-scene where you can offer "invaluable support"?:rolleyes:

Here's my advice to amateurs like Officer Goober:

Finish your chili-dog...

[TheeBadOne]

Spare me the condescension, please.

Yet you post...
Officer Goober [can't label him what he deserves and stay within forum guidelines] Goober and his buddy Here's my advice to amateurs like Officer Goober: Finish your chili-dog... :rolleyes:

[mrat]

The LEO mindset that views all interactions with civilians as potentially dangerous: allowing the LEOs to demand compliance, to expect it, and to react with force whenever they don't get the level of submission they expect.

There is a name for LEOs that do not view interactions with citizens as dangerous....DEAD! This, unfortunately, is reality. Interactions between LEOs and civilians can be nothing but potentially dangerous for the LEO. Just as you answering a knock at your door at 2:00 AM should be considered potentially dangerous by you. I think it is stupid for ANYONE to shuffle through life in condition white especially a LEO while in the performance of their duties. That does not mean that the contact needs to be rude or overagressive.

You bet the LEO is going to demand and expect compliance and use force when compliance is not received. As far a I know most LEOs would like to go home at the end of their shift. The bottom line is if I tell someone to do something they are going to do it. This has nothing to do with ego, attitude or a power trip but everything to do with my personal safety. Of course every situation needs to be evaluated and overagression should not be used by the LEO. Obviously there is a difference between a victim/suspect/traffic stop, etc. Also there is a difference between not keeping quite when told to vs. reaching under the seat during a traffic stop.

[faustulus]

Watch the tape, the dog was coming aggressively towards him

When my dog is aggressive her tail isn't wagging.

I think part of society's problem is that somewhere along the lines there was a distinction made between LEs and "civilians" news flash LEs are civilians.

It would be interesting to compare and contrast the modern LE mindset and that of the soldiers at Mai Lai.

[XLMiguel]

Just saw the video again on "Today" (or whatever the NBC morning show is). From what I can see, them boys skrewed up royally.

I'm not saying that the THP shouldn't have been careful in making the stop initially, but where on Earth did their judgment based on thier powers of observation go? It should have been pretty clear pretty quickly that they had a mom, dad, kid and dog family unit in transit, not a bunch of criminals (and I really have never heard of a car-jacking or armed robbery going down by a 'gang' like that). There were more than enough cops on hand to adequately control the situation, and those present acted with callous disregard for the safety of the animal (which looked just plain happy to be out of the car) and family. "Common sense" alone would suggest that they should have closed the door on the dog to a) keep it out of the confrontation, and b) to keep it out of traffic - what were they thinking? IMO, Ofc. Hall in particular, badly over-reacted.

I know hind-sight is 20/20 and I wasn't there, but based on the videotape, I'm afraid that the taxpayers of TN are going to paying big time for this one. I also wonder, that, if instead of bluster and BS, if the brass had just apologized immediately, might the lawsuits have been avoided.:confused: :o

[DaveB]

The bottom line is if I tell someone to do something they are going to do it. This has nothing to do with ego, attitude or a power trip but everything to do with my personal safety.

I'm not cop, but I've worked closely with rural SOs in the past, so my viewpoint is civilian with a tiny bit of cop.

Sir, your statement above is offensive and counterproductive. Your personal safety is NOT more important than the safety of my family, my neighbors, me, or any other civilian (except to you, your family, and your fellow LEOs).

It is not more important than my Constitutional Rights.

This is not intended to be insulting, but to illustrate why I started this thread in the first place.

For your methods to work properly you need a nation of sheep.

Is that really what you / we want?

db

[Selfdfenz]

mrat wrote:

"There is a name for LEOs that do not view interactions with citizens as dangerous....DEAD! This, unfortunately, is reality. Interactions between LEOs and civilians can be nothing but potentially dangerous for the LEO. Just as you answering a knock at your door at 2:00 AM should be considered potentially dangerous by you. I think it is stupid for ANYONE to shuffle through life in condition white especially a LEO while in the performance of their duties. That does not mean that the contact needs to be rude or overagressive.

You bet the LEO is going to demand and expect compliance and use force when compliance is not received. As far a I know most LEOs would like to go home at the end of their shift. The bottom line is if I tell someone to do something they are going to do it. This has nothing to do with ego, attitude or a power trip but everything to do with my personal safety. Of course every situation needs to be evaluated and overagression should not be used by the LEO. Obviously there is a difference between a victim/suspect/traffic stop, etc. Also there is a difference between not keeping quite when told to vs. reaching under the seat during a traffic stop.'

After reading this I can't help but think you are a very scary person in some ways mrat.
If your mindset toward "civilians" is really what you state it to be in the above paragraphs you really need to leave LE. If training can be pointed to as the principle functional issue that has modeled your outlook in this way, it is more scary still. Aren't you afraid sooner or later you might make a misjudgement and hurt an innocent person? Or a child for CS?

S-

On another point I recently made a visit with my son's Scout Troop to the local PD. Great tour and very nice people. Superficially you would have had a very positive and confident opinion of the Department, the job they were doing and that "they had their hearts right concerning the public".
A week later the Police Chief asked for a virtual ban on all toy guns unless they were kept on the parents property. It made national news.

The take home lesson was for me was that at the highest levels of the PD they were homing on internal noise. This kind of thinking has to cast a shadow all the way down to the patrolperson on the street. Back to the drawing board!
S-

[F4GIB]

MRAT posted "The bottom line is if I tell someone to do something they are going to do it. "

The Smoak family DID exactly this. Look what it got them.

I've watched the complete tape at The Tennessean website several times. Look at the body language of the THP officers. This was no longer a "high risk" endeavor. Officer Hall saw that too.

I don't think he a "dog killer," I think he's got too short a fuse for any police work. I'll bet he prefers action to thinking.

I wonder what his MMPI looks like. Prior record too. The Smoak family will find out during pre-trial discovery.

[Baba Louie]

DaveB,

It may not be what we want, but it's what we've now become for the most part. And if you/I dare to stand up because you're right or because of your rights, you may end up "dead" right. (I'm surprised that PETA hasn't chimed in about the "dog's" rights)

The "Man" with a gun has a little more immediate power available than the man without, no? Be he LEO, Uncle Sam G.I., Joe Homeowner defending the fort or some Gangsta type. Guns make sheep very nervous.

I try to travel among the sheep without alarming them, LEO's often-times need to control the whole flock (or a portion thereof). We need them (Police Agencies), we hire and train them and set them loose with guidelines the likes of which oftentimes severly hamper their ability to enforce ALL of the LAWS our wonderful Legistatures decide we simply must have. 99.99% of the time they/we do fine and life is wonderful. Now and again something BAD happens. Thank God it was only a dog in this case.

The only LEO that make me nervous are the ones with a gun and a "HEAVY" badge. You all know what I mean here.

CZ-75 opined that Sheriff Andy should give them all one bullet. It only took one shotgun shell here to be heard round the 'net.

F4GIB... "Free Speech" did you say? Not here nor on GlockTalk sir. You did supposedly agree to abide by certain rules when posting on a "Private" forum did you not? I know I did. Trying to post your thoughts and concerns without anyone getting their knickers in a twist takes a certain flair. But free speech?

Adios

[Coltdriver]

Police have a very tough job.

Depending on where they work, not treating every contact as if they were a violent criminal can get the policeman killed in a big hurry.

That being said the idiot that shot the dog should be fired. How the department will defend probable cause to 12 jurors in the law suit is another question.

We are not talking poor judgement here, we are talking no judgement combined with contempt for a citizen.

The police are militarized in this country and that is wrong.

Exactly how to resolve the current general situation is tough and I don't know the answer.

But I am not a subject, I am an American Citizen.

[ojibweindian]

"The bottom line is if I tell someone to do something they are going to do it."

mrat, that mentality WILL eventually get you killed.

[wingman]

lack of common sense, poor judgement,
whatever you wish to call it, but it seems
to be a big part of our Wally World
mentality that now prevails.:fire:

In this case no shot should have been fired, and again the taxpayer "will "pay.

[Daniel T]

Art:

Demise, I rode with the first-ever Buddy Patrol deal with Austin PD in 1970. I'm not "surprised"; I saw a lot of it. What rips me out of the frame is that some twerp can be so obviously in the wrong that there's no doubt, but a bunch of bystanders start in yowling all manner of insults and BS...Some of the twerp-natter reminds me of an old Richard Pryor "bit" of the kid to his daddy, "I wasn't running in the house! It just sorta looked like I was running!"

Yeah, I've seen the same thing. Drunk SOB #1 hits Drunk SOB #2 with a bottle, then when the cops show up (I was on a ride-along), all the bystanders start giving my buddy crap because "they're bothers, it's a family matter" and "you're sticking your nose in where it doesn't belong", plus a whole lot of other stuff that I can't post here.

My point is, when you have so much power, you going to take a lot of **** when you use it. Kinda like the USA on the world stage.

[TheeBadOne]

I think what you are missing is the very simple point mr rat was making. Bad guys don't have a tattoo on their forhead or wear shirts that say "I will kill you for food". Bad guys look just like you and me, and mom and dad and brother and sister. Hollywood makes it easy, within 1 second of seeing the badguy on screen you know who he is, but that's Hollywood. You never know who you're dealing with. There was a separate thread about the cops who got shot with their own guns at a fast food joint after getting called to a lovers spat. The "bad guy" was very reasonable from the start, and the call was over, all walking away, when the bad guy (it was later found out he was a very bad guy) attacked without warning.

[ojibweindian]

Wrong. The problem is that the cops dealt with this situation in a "Zero Tolerance" manner, which we all know is devoid of common sense.

What makes it worse is that there was no substantial evidence that necessitated this kind of treatment.

No, you never know what you're dealing with. But you know what? That's part of the job. If you can't take it, quit.

[TreeSquid]

I agree with everyone who said the cop was just doing his job, and he should have blown that dog away. Because what we REALLY need in America is a rivalry between innocent citizens and loose cannons in law enforcement who will not hesitate to fire at the slightest provocation, even when, like in this case, there doesn't seem to be ANY provocation at all. Yes, deathly fear of those who are supposed to protect you is the true path to the american dream! That officer either needs to be stripped of his badge and never allowed to work LE again, or all police dogs acting "threatening" (tail wagging, bouncing around) are fair game for any timid soul. After all, if a family with their dog in a station wagon who lost a wallet are horrible people who need to be treated like criminals and fired upon, then surely a man dressed all in black with a gun and an attack dog is certainly a threat! "TO SERVE AND PROTECT." Not "TO SUBJUGATE AND ABUSE, AND THEN MAKE EXCUSES INSTEAD OF ADMITTING OBVIOUS ERROR."

This incident inflames me to no end. After watching that video, I think that there is absolutely no excuse, NONE, for what happened. Either the felony stop, or the officers' blatant disregard for common sense, respect, or even simple observation. These poor people were traumatized for doing NOTHING but cooperating. If something very serious doesn't in happen to that officer, or possibly the whole department, over that situation, it will be a sad harbinger of things to come.

[Zander]

Spare me the condescension, please. -- Zander

Yet you post... -- TheeBadOne

Don't confuse condescension with contempt.

[DeltaElite]

Zander,
I hope you feel better now that you got to go after me.
You sure have alot of resentment over things that you have no direct knowledge of.
BTW, name calling is sooooooooo mature. :rolleyes:

Edited at the request of a higher authority........

[riverdog]

It really is unfortunate that the dog had to die in this situation, but that's what happens when Law Enforcement as a routine feels it necessary to take complete control over ordinary law abiding citizens in order to conduct what should have been a routine investigative stop -- no way should this have been considered a High Risk stop. But now the dog is dead and law enforcement has lost even more respect in the process.

There's a ongoing thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2565) that asks what you think of when you see a LEO. How about: "I wonder whether he's part of the BAD 1% or one of the 99% that enables the 1% to get away with it?" LE needs to address this problem now because it will only get worse and law abiding citizens will start demanding politicos fix the problem.

I'm still not sure using Officer Hall as the scapegoat is the right thing to do; there is plenty of blame for this incident within the THP that goes way beyond a dog being shot. The person or persons who put this out as a felony stop put the lives of innocent civilians at unnecessarily risk. That in my eyes is criminal conduct.

The fact or excuse that it was only a dog should never be uttered by a LEO. LE killed that dog needlessly. Whether or not Officer Hall acted properly in the moment is irrelevant. The dog's death was not necessary.

[jsalcedo]

About 5 years ago in San Antonio a cop was videotaped
bashing in the head of a small poodle mix dog that was tied
to a tree outside of a residence where they were serving a warrant.

The dog weighed less than 15 Lbs and was barking but was
secured and about 10 feet from where the officers were
conducting their business. The taped showed an officer picking
up a shovel he found leaning up against the house and proceded
to repeatedly bash the dogs brains in.

The news ran the story for about a day and a half and then
stated the officer felt threatened and no charges were being filed.

Is this typical?

I am a law abiding citizen and CCW license holder and I have been abused by city cops about every other time I come in contact with one. For no reason other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time I have been screamed at, cursed, threatened, shoved and harassed.

The state police on the other hand have been polite, courteous
professional and calm on the occasions where I have had a tail light out or was speeding.

Is there a difference in training between city and state agencies?

[HS/LD]

The dog is shot. Sad and unfortunate. Sounds like the cop was not necessarily a Nazi but a bit of an idiot.
What concerns me is that this sort of thing happens to 'we the people'. No-knock raids and such.

I agree to some extent with the original argument of this post.

While I have family in LE and I support my local LEOs 100% (until they do something to warrant removing this placement of trust). I am a little alarmed at the disposition towards turning LE units into their military equivalent.

There is a law that forbids the government from using the military against 'we the people', right? It seems the expedient answer is to simple equip the LE units like military units and train them like military units… now for all intents and purposes they are military units. Right?

I have never been a LEO and never will be. However I have served in the military and I have a sibling that serves and protects civilians as an LEO. The training should be different the tactics should be different, the mindset especially, should be VERY different.

If you take a police force and equip them like the military. Train them like the military; have them use the tactics and mindset of the military. Haven't you just got a military unit? Are we not then creating a perfect environment to start a war?

Why do I even have to worry about a no-knock raid on my home (when I am a law-abiding non-citizen)? I can understand being detained when I am a dead-ringer for a suspect in a crime. I would also expect a ride home and a “Our sincere apologies for inconveniencing you Mr. HS/LD.” When the matter is cleared up.

The problem is the mindset is wrong.

Why in a country like New Zealand (where there are more firearms per capita than the US) do the LEOs not even carry sidearms? (At the moment :( ) How would have this particular situation have been handled there? Would the dog have been shot, or would the officer have realized that not all situations should be solved with a shotgun and simply closed the door to the car?

I think people, as evidenced by this thread, are not anti-LEO. They are simply fed up with being afraid of the aggressive and antagonistic behavior they see every day. You would then say the LEOs see aggressive and antagonistic behavior everyday too, and that they are FED UP. Well, THAT IS THEIR JOB!! That is what they chose to do!!

Do I like seeing the Deputy’s cruiser in my neighborhood? Yes.
Am I afraid of the LEOs? Yes.
Have I EVER had contact with the police in regard to the commission of a crime? NEVER. (Oh except that one speeding ticket, which was dismissed BTW :) ).

So why am I afraid?
I am afraid that one day some idiot will do the same thing to me.
Shoot my dog!
Shoot my wife!
Or forget to knock before erroneously kicking down my door, and shoot me!
The LEO and I should be on the same side: We should both be thinking about protecting ME!

Regards,
HS/LD

If you look at my signature line you will see that this particular matter has concerned 'the people' for a long long time.
Who Watches the Watchmen?
Quis Custodiet ipsos Custodes

[Dennis Olson]

It tells me that the car passengers should have closed the car doors, in which case the incident would not have occurred. There is more than enough blame to go around...

[HS/LD]

Dennis Olson:

In a felony stop you are not given the opportunity to close the car doors.

Blame rest squarely on one set of shoulders here.

HS/LD

[riverdog]

The driver and passengers should never have had to leave the car.

[Phyphor]

Dennis said: "It tells me that the car passengers should have closed the car doors, in which case the incident would not have occurred. There is more than enough blame to go around...
"

And get shot by the cops for disobeying orders?

[Zander]

I hope you feel better now that you got to go after me. -- DeltaEliteOh, please...don't flatter yourself. I didn't "go after you", I asked you some very pointed questions.

You didn't answer a single one. Why?

You sure have alot of resentment over things that you have no direct knowledge of. Where did you say you worked? Still waiting on you to provide us with your knowledge of THP policy and procedure, too. Personally, I don't think you have a clue.

BTW, name calling is sooooooooo mature. I call him Officer Goober to express my contempt for his meddling. His "help" wasn't needed, wasn't requested and he shouldn't have been on-scene. Even you recognize this...and his motivation for being where he shouldn't have been.

He precipitated an ugly incident and has put his department, his city and his state at civil risk. And furthered the notion that certain small-town officers are ill-trained wannabes who can't resist hanging around and getting in the way of more professional officers doing their jobs.

Who am I to argue?

Zander needs a hug. Thanks...but you don't seem like my type.:cool:

[DeltaElite]

Zander,
It doesn't matter where I work, do you work for THP?
Are you associated with Le in any way?

I got my answers in PM, so nevermind.

So what was the gist of this thread anyway?

[Bostonterrier97]

The Dog in the Video was exhibiting Body Language which showed that it was EXCITED, HAPPY and PLAYFUL

Here is the full video Smoak Car Stop (http://www.tennessean.com/video/dogshooting0103/doglg.rm)

Notice how the Dog Bounds out of the Car, runs around in a Circle, is holding its Tail UP AND WAGGING!

Here is a small list of common canine body language, the definitions, and how to react to them:

1. Your dog is greeting you, but showing his front teeth. His tail is wagging slowly.

Definition: Your dog is happy to see you but also showing you submission. Crouch down to his level and greet him enthusiastically. This will prevent him from Trying to jump on you
2. Your dog is looking at another dog, his ears perked forward, eyes staring, tail wagging, fur slightly raised along his shoulders.

Definition: He wants to go greet the other dog, but is a bit afraid. Should you restrain him by pulling his neck collar, this behavior can turn into aggression toward the other dog. Your dog needs more time to interact with others of his own species.
3. Your dog has a habit of staring directly into your eyes or those of other family members.

Definition: This is called the Alpha Stare. It's a means of showing dominance. Never look away first. Looking away first makes you appear submissive to your dog. However, if you are being stared at by a strange dog in his yard, look away and slowly back out of his yard. Not heeding his warning can be dangerous.
4. Your dog is greeted by another dog who is prancing around him, tail up, ears forward, neck arched, and eyes staring.

Definition: This other dog is showing dominance to your dog. Provided your dog remains submissive (i.e. keeps a low profile and does not stare back), things will be fine. However, if your dog is not a submissive type, break off the interaction by calling him to come to you, and walking away.
5. Your dog is showing the sides of his teeth with a curled lip.

Definition: This is a sign of aggression. It is currently a warning which, if not heeded, will turn into a bite. This should never be allowed to happen with your own pet. Seek the help of a professional trainer immediately.
6. Your dog is panting lightly, ears swiveling or held at the side. His tail is still.

Definition: Your dog is relaxed/happy.
These are but a few canine body language communications. To fully understand canine body language there are several books available that can help. However, the best means of learning what your dog is telling you is through observation and an open mind. Anthropomorphizing will not help you understand anything. Canines do not think in the same manner as humans.

Dogs may also display puppy-like behaviour towards humans, as they perceive us as superiors. In the same way that a puppy licks its mothers face to beg for food or grooming, an adult dog reaches or jumps up to lick its owner's face.

CURIOUS/EAGER/EXCITED
• Perked-up ears pointing forward
• Wide eyes
• Slightly open mouth
• Excited panting
• Dog may wiggle or prance a little
• Tail is up and wagging
• Whines or barks excitedly.

PLAYFUL/HAPPY
• Ears perked forward
• Sparkly, merry eyes
• Relaxed mouth, slightly open with teeth covered
• Excited panting
• Relaxed body, with their front end lower to the
ground than their rear
• Dog may bounce, jump, circle or run back and
forth
• Wagging tail
• Barking, and perhaps a bit of mock-ferocious
growling.


Note the LAST 3 points...Bounce,Jump circle or run back and forth; Wagging Tail; Barking and/or Mock-Ferocious Growling

[Cal4D4]

Well said Bostonterrier97, if only we could predict LEO demeanor so easily while we were still in our cars.

[riverdog]

Excellent post. Some of us learned how to read these expressions as kids and we never knew why. Maybe that's why some of us don't have problems understanding canines.

[Erik]

Felony stop:

Cops are supposed to be occupied with human occupants, and what they may or may not be doing.

Dogs had best stay put, lest out of the corner of the cops eye movement be construed as aggressive, in which case one of the acceptable drills is 'BOOM' then back to what they are supposed to be occupied with as outlined above.

Of course every situation is different, and not everyone reacts the same way, regardless.

---

Every cop I know, and I know quite a few, are trained not to consider pepper spray a viable canine alternative.

Transition from a longarm to a collapsable baton in a similar scenario? No thanks. Though I might not chose to shoot, depending on my own split second decision. Of course maybe I would.

---

All in all and regardless, a regretable situation.

[Zander]

Dogs had best stay put, lest out of the corner of the cops eye movement be construed as aggressive, in which case one of the acceptable drills is 'BOOM' then back to what they are supposed to be occupied with as outlined above. -- ErikDo you have any conception of how silly this contention is?

It's simply unconnected with reality...and I don't give a damn what your training is.

Except to say that your training is likely faulty in the extreme. It distresses me greatly that anyone with such a mindset is carrying a badge and a firearm under color of law.

I'd suggest some remedial training; your mission is to serve and protect those who pay your salary. If you disagree, turn in your badge.

Supposing that you are, of course, a sworn officer.

You are, aren't you?

[ojibweindian]

Let's try this, Erik.

A police officer, upon detaining me in some fashion, had better quicly present appropriate, irrefutable identification and state the nature of his buisiness lest his actions be interpreted as those of an imposter attempting to harm me, in which case the necessary level of force needed to stop the percieved threat immediately and irrevocably is employed.

[Preacherman]

Friends, we've had endless discussions about this case over the past few days - discussions that are, by now, generating more heat than light. There have been no new facts apart from the video footage. We still don't know the background to the whole affair from the initial 911 call, through various departments and dispatchers, to the officers who executed the felony stop. It's time to stop playing armchair quarterback, and long past time to stop conducting a "trial by media". Please sit back, relax, and let the legal system run its course. I do believe that with so high-profile a case, justice will indeed be served - by now, it's impossible to sweep things under the carpet any more!

Let's leave this to the legal profession to sort out. Thread closed.