Thinking way too hard


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chipperi
September 21, 2007, 10:15 AM
Now Forgive me I work 3rd shift so I may just be over analytical in my tired state.

Anywho I was looking through posts this morning and had a thought.

Rule 1: Treat every gun as if it were loaded.

With this being said why do you need a loaded chamber indicator or a magazine disconnect?

This was Chip's :scrutiny:tired thought for today.

Nite Ya'll

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The Bushmaster
September 21, 2007, 10:44 AM
It aides the idiots that don't know any better...Of course they have to look at it to do any good. And then I wouldn't trust it. I'd check anyway. I believe I have a "loaded chamber" indicator on one of my handguns. I never use it...

Hauptmann
September 21, 2007, 11:15 AM
One word......Lawyers.

Just as in an automobile, additional safety features helps in legal protection. Even with a loaded chamber indicator I still crack the chamber to visually see a round in the chamber. Magazine disconnect?......don't like it. It's nice to know that I can open up the action without a magazine inserted and load a cartridge in for firing if such a case ever happened. I can imagine under stress that I might accidentally hit the magazine release and my only magazine might be lost in the dark. I'd like to think I can at least shoot that round in the chamber rather than having to use my pistol as a club.

ZeSpectre
September 21, 2007, 11:25 AM
Rule 1: Treat every gun as if it were loaded.
With this being said why do you need a loaded chamber indicator or a magazine disconnect?

You don't.
Personally I feel that some of these items (especially magazine disconnects) lead to sloppy habits that will cause MORE problems since the older (pre disconnect) style guns still exist out there.

ClickClickD'oh
September 21, 2007, 12:02 PM
Well, the loaded chamber indicator is a useless piece of garbage. If the slide isn't back, it's loaded. If the slide is back, fix it. There's your loaded chamber indicator right there plain and simple.

The Magazine disconnect does actually serve a purpose though. It's the Level IV of a Level III holster.

Walkalong
September 21, 2007, 01:25 PM
Never believe a loaded round indicator if it shows no round, check anyway.

Always believe a loaded round indicator if it shows a loaded round, but check anyway. It could be empty brass or a stuck indicator.

You know what. JUST CHECK THE DAMN GUN YOURSELF> :rolleyes:

The Bushmaster
September 21, 2007, 02:33 PM
"JUST CHECK THE DAMN GUN YOURSELF"...What a concept, Walkalong. You sure you want to do that??? I mean, the gun HAS a "loaded chamber" indicator...:evil:

gp911
September 21, 2007, 04:35 PM
Hey, it isn't my responsibility to check if it's loaded! The manufacturers need to make sure there is an indicator on every gun because the technology exists and and and... :banghead:

I agree that these sorts of "features" simply allow for bad habits, sloppiness, and dangerous circumstances.

"But geez officer, the gun I normally shoot has a flag that tells you if it is loaded. I just pointed my brother's gun at my buddy's leg as a joke, you know how we gun guys joke, right...?"

The 4 Rules already cover this... :cuss:


gp911

JesseL
September 21, 2007, 05:50 PM
I wouldn't use one from the perspective of a safety device to see if it's not loaded.

I might use one in lieu of my daily press check to see that my carry gun is loaded though. I treat my guns like they're always loaded, but I want to be sure it's going to go bang when I need it!

CountGlockula
September 21, 2007, 07:03 PM
Maybe because newbies may not know that rule.

ShooterMcGavin
September 21, 2007, 07:05 PM
I don't have a problem using the witness hole in the top of my handgun to verify that a round IS loaded in the chamber. It is nicer than pulling the slide back to see the casing. However, I'd never rely on any mechanism to suggest that my gun is not loaded. Only sticking my finger in the chamber is sufficient for that.

I think that magazine disconnects have limited usability. I think I have heard of an officer being saved by one. But, don't get me wrong. I DO think that they lead towards sloppy gun-handling habits.

Black Adder LXX
September 21, 2007, 08:16 PM
Because of ambulance chasers...

default
September 21, 2007, 11:33 PM
I personally think that magazine disconnects and loaded chamber indicators are a waste of time and in fact potentially dangerous, with the possible exception of magazine disconnects on LEO pistols. LCIs are unobtrusive and don't affect the function of a pistol, so they are not a deal-breaker for me, but I can't see buying a gun with a magazine disconnect other than a BHP or certain .22s.

In the final analysis, there is only one foolproof and safe way to determine whether or not a pistol is loaded. That is to retract the slide - partially, if you wish to confirm that it is loaded, and all the way, locking the slide back, having ejected the magazine first, and then double-checking the chamber, to confirm that it is not. And, of course, at all times we must be guided by the Four Rules.

So - in most cases, loaded chamber indicators and magazine disconnects are at best pointless and redundant for a safe gunhandler, and at worst an invitation to make unfounded assumptions for an unsafe one.

GLOOB
September 22, 2007, 01:14 AM
Maybe it's there to reassure you that a round IS chambered. There may be times when you might not want to make the noise that a chamber check would require, and it may be reassuring to feel or see a loaded chamber indicator.

I think anybody with a right mind would do a real chamber check before dropping the hammer on a supposedly empty gun.

chipperi
September 22, 2007, 03:09 AM
Maybe it's there to reassure you that a round IS chambered. There may be times when you might not want to make the noise that a chamber check would require, and it may be reassuring to feel or see a loaded chamber indicator.

Every time I leave the house I check my carry gun, I dont need to be reassured as I have already checked to see that there is a 230gr situation resolver chambered.

NavyLCDR
September 22, 2007, 07:43 PM
Two reasons for a loaded chamber indicator:

First loading the gun, verifies that a round actually went into the chamber vice the slide "skipping over" the top round, maybe due to magazine not inserted fully.

Loading gun in dark or recovery from a jam in dark - you can run finger over the indicator and feel without the need for light.

Magazine disconnect, imho, is a worthless piece on a gun.

Noxx
September 22, 2007, 07:49 PM
Same reason you need an MSDS sheet on a block of lead telling you not to eat it.

Steve C
September 22, 2007, 08:30 PM
A loaded chamber indicator isn't a safety device, its a method to tell you if your gun is loaded. Unlike a press check that is visual and requires a bit more manual dexterity, most chamber incicators give you a tactile indication that will work in dark or low light situations. Prevents the need to rack the pistol and possibly dumping a round under circumstances where you may not want to make racking noise or may need all your rounds.

Magazine disconnect has been instrumental in saving some cops lives when a perp has attempted to shoot an officer with a gun that the officer has removed or managed to free the magazine prior to the attempt. On the other hand there may be situations where they have resulted in a death when a gun needed to be fired. Have never read any stories to support the later.

The Bushmaster
September 23, 2007, 10:22 AM
WW-I & II...Stories of lost magazines for the .45 ACP. Could still be used as a single shot until a magazine could be found to replace the lost one...Did save a few lives...As told to me by my Father who served in WW-II in the Pacific.

Autolycus
September 23, 2007, 12:06 PM
I like the idea of a mag disconnect but do not feel it is necessary. I think it maybe useful for LE but not for Military. It is also up to the individual who will be using the gun.

I like the idea of a loaded chamber indicator. I understand it is not quite as important as a visual and physical inspection of the chamber but I may need to know at a moment when racking the slide would draw unecessary or unwanted attention to myself.

Ethereal
September 23, 2007, 10:47 PM
Personally I take it as an insult to the gun owners that we can't be trusted with simple tools and therefore need them to be "dumbed" down in order to keep us safe.

Nil
September 23, 2007, 11:39 PM
I like the loaded chamber indicator when I compete in actions shooting (i.e. IDPA, USPSA). I'll rack the slide back and do a brief check to make sure it actually chambered instead of just skipping over the round. Nothing will kill your time faster than not having a round loaded right off the bat.

I would never use it as a safety feature though. If I pick up a gun, it gets checked to see if it's loaded regardless if the indicator is up or not.

jeepmor
September 23, 2007, 11:55 PM
I need to send my S&W CS40 back to the factory and have that magazine disconnect removed.

I like the loaded indicator, but wouldn't bet my bacon on it. I prefer a press check. The loaded chamber indicator is a good tactile device though, I can feel it in the dark and know a round is chambered. No need though, I press checked it before I put it on my person, so it's kinda moot.

ShooterMcGavin
September 24, 2007, 02:35 AM
In the final analysis, there is only one foolproof and safe way to determine whether or not a pistol is loaded. That is to retract the slide - partially, if you wish to confirm that it is loaded,...
Ok.... so, when I look into the witness hole on the top of my gun and I see light reflecting off the top of the brass/steel casing, how can you tell me that this is not effective in confirming that I have a round in the chamber???

BReilley
September 24, 2007, 10:59 PM
I'd say those are more feel-good features than anything else. If I'm going to hand my pistol to someone, I'm not going to trust a loaded-chamber nub to tell me that the weapon is safe - I'm going to clear it myself and hand it over with the slide back.

I see no purpose for a magazine disconnect on a carry weapon, mainly for the reason mentioned above by Hauptmann. I don't want anything to stop a round from leaving the barrel when it counts.

The rules are all about good practice, and in my eyes, "safety" features such as these simply make it safer for people to act dangerously with firearms.

James T Thomas
September 25, 2007, 05:15 PM
Gloob et.al. have the concept. Not for safety per say, but confirmation.

If you require a reload under dark or dim conditions, a "witness hole" may be not enough. Sometimes the slide slams forward and no round is chambered.

For the daylight checking as you leave your home, etc.; partially pulling back the slide (some pistols have not much or no witness hole), then the slide return to lock may not be fully in battery. The slide may be retracted just a little. Not good.

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