Beretta CX4 (.45ACP) versus Shotgun


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mjrodney
September 21, 2007, 12:41 PM
Toying with the idea of picking up a CX4 in .45ACP......as opposed to a short barreled Remington 870 tactical shotgun.

The CX4 is more compact at approx. 30" in overall length versus 38.5" of an 870.

And.......

In my safe are a number of .45ACP handguns, 1911's mostly, so the idea of a long gun that uses the same cartridge appeals to me.

But......

Would I really be gaining a performance advantage (or at least staying even) by moving to a pistol caliber carbine instead of the typical home defense shotgun?

Any thoughts?

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Jimmie
September 21, 2007, 12:45 PM
I presume it's for home defense? What's your floorplan like? Any large rooms? Shotgun range, even with buckshot, is limited. Any tight areas where the exta shotgun length would be inconvenient? Do you need to use it for outdoor defense/varmint control?

.45 will never beat the "stopping power" of buckshot, but carbines definitely have their advantages. The question is - will those advantages play into your scenario?

rcmodel
September 21, 2007, 01:02 PM
You also need to consider over-penetration through sheet-rock walls inside your home.

I don't consider 00 buck especially suitable for indoor home use due to this factor. At typical room distance, smaller buckshot sizes are perfectly adequate for SD, and far less like to go through a couple of walls and kill your neighbor.

The .45 ACP out of a carbine would be far more likely to over-penetrate then a shotgun if you miss.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

Avenger29
September 21, 2007, 01:07 PM
Don't forget recoil. A shotgun has pretty stout recoil, and while it is quite managable, not everybody tolerates it well. I'm not a particular fan of it.

I'd say it's about even. Let's look at some points...

Carbine
-Low recoil
-Higher capacity magazines
-.45ACP- you already shoot it, so you have the ammo for it, and if you reload, you will be set for both

Shotgun
-pump action reliable
-more recoil
-can use either buckshot or slugs for defense...slugs are good for turning cover into merely concealment
-reload slower

I'd think I'd go with the Beretta, if I could afford it. Or a nice Marlin Camp Carbine...

mjrodney
September 21, 2007, 01:32 PM
rcmodel said,

The .45 ACP out of a carbine would be far more likely to over-penetrate then a shotgun if you miss.

Ah, good point.

A quick return visit to the Box O Truth website reveals that a .45ACP round from a handgun will penetrate 12 sheets of drywall with ease.

A shotgun with #1 or #4 buck will penetrate 6 sheets of drywall.

A shotgun with #00 buck will penetrate up to 8 sheets of drywall.

A slug out of a shotgun will penetrate all 12 sheets.

The maximum number of sheets of drywall in my house that I could possibly shoot through comes to 5.

Oops.

What do you think about CO2 versus Spring pump BB guns for home defense?

Hauptmann
September 21, 2007, 01:40 PM
Hrmm, one .45 caliber bullet versus nine .32 caliber bullets at HD ranges.......let me think...... You get better penetration with the .45acp, but as far as total tissue trauma goes the 12 gauge wins out. The key is determining your likely combat ranges and indoors it will likely be under 15 yards which is the optimal range for a 12 gauge with 00 buck. I recommend getting a 12 gauge Remington 870(relable workhorse) and copper plated 00 buck loads. The copper plating keeps the pellets from deforming too much and assists in better penetration through tissue and bone. A pistol carbine doesn't do all that much more damage over a standard handgun.

rcmodel
September 21, 2007, 01:43 PM
I think a shotgun with #1 or #4 buck, and don't miss!

I keep #2 lead goose loads in my humble sheet-rock home.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

Avenger29
September 21, 2007, 01:45 PM
What do you think about CO2 versus Spring pump BB guns for home defense?

Worthless?

A pistol carbine doesn't do all that much more damage over a standard handgun.

But it has advantages in ease of use and a velocity increase...

hexidismal
September 21, 2007, 02:05 PM
Personally, I don't really see what significant advantage the carbine's small increase in velocity and long range accuracy would have over one of your 1911s for an indoor setting. That is, assuming you do shoot the 1911s well. Carbine's are great range guns, and a viable defensive alternative to those people not licensed to own a handgun. For instance, I own a pistol caliber carbine because here in NY someone without a permit is technically not allowed to even handle a handgun on a range without a permit. So by owning one, unlicensed people can shoot with me legally and my wife could use it in a defensive situation without the fear of additional legal complications regarding permits. It is easier to shoot at longer ranges, but that really isn't an advantage indoors.

While a shotgun on the other hand is THE proven and time tested close/medium range defensive weapon. For me, the combination of an appropriate handgun/shotgun combo AND good training with both, is the optimal home defense setup.

Hauptmann
September 21, 2007, 02:05 PM
But it has advantages in ease of use and a velocity increase...

You get about a 200fps velocity increase in 9mm in a 16" barrel, but its less than that in a .45acp. If you used .45acp+P loads you might come close to .45 Super velocities. Most shootings at close range average 3 shots before either the fight is over, or somebody runs. With a pistol carbine you've delivered 3 projectiles, with 00 buck you've delivered 32 projectiles. Your chances of inflicting a lethal wound or enough to deter and attacker is far more likely with a shotgun than a pistol carbine. Not to mention you have a conical targeting area which makes up for less than precise marksmanship. Agencies that have the option of using full auto still use shotguns for CQC because it can equal the effectiveness of a SMG at close ranges.

00 buck loads have greatly improved with the new bonded copper plated pellets. The weakness of buck shot has always been deformation of the pellets which reduced penetration. The new copper plated pellets make up for this.

rcmodel
September 21, 2007, 02:14 PM
Not to mention you have a conical targeting area which makes up for less than precise marksmanship.
Not inside a house you don't, unless it's a very big house.

With typical pattern spread at 5 - 10 foot room distance, you still only get one big rat-hole in the target.

At room distance, it better be precisely aimed at what you intend to hit.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

Hauptmann
September 21, 2007, 02:19 PM
Not inside a house you don't, unless it's a very big house.

With typical pattern spread at 5 - 10 foot room distance, you still only get one big rat-hole in the target.

At room distance, it better be precisely aimed at what you intend to hit.


rcmodel



At 5 feet from the muzzle you have about a 2-3" wounding diameter depending on the barrel length. Better than a .45" wounding diameter. Not to mention penetration at that range would be outstanding.

I guess my opinion is, when it comes to a close ranged confrontation where you are far more likely to be injured or killed than at longer ranges......why compromise?

grimjaw
September 21, 2007, 02:21 PM
More zombies are killed by shotguns than pistol caliber carbines. That seals the deal right there, even if the CX4 is all Buck Rodgers-lookin'.

jm

rjohnson4405
September 21, 2007, 02:55 PM
mjrodney (or anyone for that matter): Look into Fiocchi reduced recoil 00 buckshot. On CheaperThanDirt the product number has "LE" in it because it's a law enforcement round. The groupings out of my 18 inch cylinder bore barrel are awesome and the recoil is neglible in a shotgun. Mossberg 590 my friend just got is nice and my Mossberg 500 never fails to function.

I was blown away by this product, especially from Fiocchi, I expected it more from Hornady, but the groupings weren't as tight even for law enforcement buckshot.

The part I really like about a shotgun is the ability to cock it so loudly to warn an intruder. If I don't have to kill him I won't, but if I shuck it and he keeps coming he is willing to risk injury or death to hurt me/family and I'll be happy to oblige.

Anyway buy 10 for 4.33, try them out, and let me know. Sorry about the long post!

-rjohnson4405

shadowalker
September 21, 2007, 03:23 PM
I prefer a short barrel shotgun, in my case Mossberg 590. Handgun ammunition is under powered, even in carbines and as many others have mentioned more likely to over penetrate. An AR-15 would probably be a better choice for carbine self defense as it seems to have less chance of over penetration and delivers significantly more energy and momentum to the threat.

Shotgun offers a lot more ammo selections with buckshot, slugs, and reduced recoil buckshot / slugs.

I don't use less than 00 buck, the quest to find a round that is effective on a person and not go through a number of walls is futile.

Know your backstops, practice and don't miss. I'm lucky in that the kids bedrooms are upstairs, and I have a 6 foot, 8 inch thick brick wall behind the house and garages before houses on either side.

At 16 yards (longest possible inside my house) my Mossberg 590 with Federal buck patterned small enough not to yield a significant advantage as far as hitting the target.

Hauptmann
September 21, 2007, 03:45 PM
At 16 yards (longest possible inside my house) my Mossberg 590 with Federal buck patterned small enough not to yield a significant advantage as far as hitting the target.

The advantage is not in a "spray and pray" philosophy, but decreasing the dependence on shot placement. At 15 yards you have patterned a large center mass cone which has a greater probability of causing enough trauma to stop the attacker. With a single shot in your handgun caliber of choice, you inflict a wound in only one location which may or may not be adequate trauma to stop the attacker. You may only take out a lung with the .45, but you may take out all of the major organs of the torso with a single shot of 00 buck.

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