[gaudio5]

i want to down load some 357 mag loads the called for load is 10.9 grains aa#5 and a cci 500 primer how low can i go? is it dangerous to go to low?

[Mark whiz]

Heck, if you're using a revolver - just shoot .38s for reduced loads.

It is far better to stick to the published loading data than to try to push the charge too load. Doing so could be dangerous, or at the very least cause misfires, hangfires, or bullets stuck in the barrel - depending on the particular powder's properties.

[gaudio5]

see thats the thing i want to see how low i can download the 357 to, on second note how is it dangerous? i hve read loads that say do not reduce but why? what would be bad about it?

[jibjab]

What bullet ? Just guessin it's a 158gr jacketed, I would try 6.0-7.8gr of AA#5. I have loaded 140gr Raineer plated FP with 8.2gr of AA#5 with very good accuracy.

[rcmodel]

Many magnum pistol powders, and even some of the mid-range ones will not burn correctly when the charge is reduced below suggested minimums. That can result in squib loads, stuck bullets, and blown-up guns.

If you just gotta go low in a .357, at least switch to a fast powder like Bullseye or something that will burn right at lower pressure.

BTW: 10.9 grains of AA#5 / 158 grain bullet in a .357 is above max in two of my books.

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rcmodel

[GunTech]

You can always load a bulky powder if you want to go really low. Trailboss might do the trick.

[gaudio5]

why would the gun blow up with a low powder charge? im so full of questions sorry

[rino451]

Too low and instead of burn the power explodes. Or so I've heard...

[zxcvbob]

Look up the reload data for .38 Special using AA#5 and a similar bullet; let that be your lower limit. W296 and H-110 are the only pistol powders that I know of where an undercharge (within reason) can be dangerous.

Bob

[Jim Watson]

If you are exploring extra light loads, use cast bullets. A stuck jacketed bullet is much harder to drive out of the barrel.

[Werewolf]

see thats the thing i want to see how low i can download the 357 to, on second note how is it dangerous? i hve read loads that say do not reduce but why? what would be bad about it?
It's called detonation. Go too low and the powder explodes instead of burning really fast like it is supposed to.

There are many documented instances where light loads of Hodgdon H110 have gone kaboom. The why's and wherefores have been studied by the powder companies. Unfortunately all they can do to this day is say YEP! it happens - don't know why but you better not download this caliber case below this weight of charge.

The only powder I've ever heard of this happening with is H110 but since Win 296 is for all practical purposes H110 I imagine it is subject to the same effect.

[Bartkowski]

I thought that some powder companies dismissed the issue of detonation as a myth. But for the time being I would listen to everyone else and not go to low.

[fireflyfather]

Bart,

This happens much more frequently in large rifle cases with slow powders. It's a well documented, if unexplained phenomenon. I'd never heard of it in pistol calibers, but, then again, I'm kinda new to reloading. Suffice it to say, though, that a combination of a low charge, a slow powder, and a big case is BAD NEWS.

[GP100man]

fellas let me tell ya the way i was told:
slow powder is supposed to burn progressivly from rear to front,if lying in the case as to enuff room that primmer sparks can spray all of it at one time then thats bad !!!
the faster pistol powders have retardants that "control" burn rate to some point.
ive had different muzzle reports with lilgun down loading in 357mag.
wanted to add i down load with clays ,burns cleaner at low pressures .
ive shot my cast now for about ten yrs .
i never down loaded jacketed bullets

my 2cents worth

GP100man

[MarshallDodge]

Some of the powder manufacturers list load data for Cowboy Action shooting which are typically light loads.
Accurate has links on this page:
http://www.accuratepowder.com/loaddata_caliber_handgun.htm

Hodgdon:
http://www.hogdon.com/

[Stinger]

The only way you are going to blow anything up is by double (or more) charging with powder, or sticking a bullet in the barrel and then firing another behind it.

You aren't going to blow anything up with too light of a load. There IS NOT a documented case that has been verified. It CAN NOT be reproduced in a laboratory. The alleged cases of detonation involved slow burning rifle powders. Even the slowest of pistol powders is supercharged compared to the rifle powders.

[sublimaze41]

Stinger, I have heard just that as well. Can you explain that any further, or is it just not necessary? I.E, most prone calibers. Thanks

[Shell Shucker]

If you want a light 357 load simply look one up in a loading manual. I don't see the point of trying to download a "magnum" powder when so many powders suited for light loads (and published data) are available. If you use the right tool for the job you will get better results.

[zxcvbob]

He asked about No. 5, which is not a "magnum powder". Accurate publishes .38 Special data and .357 Magnum data using No. 5, and he could safely load anything in between in .357 brass.

Bob

[jibjab]

He asked about No. 5, which is not a "magnum powder". Accurate publishes .38 Special data and .357 Magnum data using No. 5, and he could safely load anything in between in .357 brass.

I agree with Bob on this one. :neener:

[Shell Shucker]

I admit that I don't know "diddly squat" about #5. Maybe I was focused on the "don't download H-110" posts. OOPS!

The point of my post was that mild loads with appropriate powders are published. It's as simple as looking one up.

No offence intended.

[Crazy4nitro]

And I'm With JibJab

'Nitro

[Werewolf]

You aren't going to blow anything up with too light of a load. There IS NOT a documented case that has been verified. It CAN NOT be reproduced in a laboratory. The alleged cases of detonation involved slow burning rifle powders. Even the slowest of pistol powders is supercharged compared to the rifle powders.Well! That certainly explains why the three reloading manuals I have make it very clear not to use less H110 than the minimum load shown...

To the OP:
Do what you want but if you download H110 or W296 below the minimum loads shown in your manual you are risking your gun and your self. It's not a question of if but when.

As others have said there are plenty of powders available for a .357 Mag that you can use to get medium to lite loads. Titegroup comes to mind as one and it is about as position independent a powder as one can get. The Cowboy Action guys love it for just that reason - they load a measley 5 or 6 grs in that big ole .45LC case.

[jfh]

I've just been chasing this issue for the last month, moving 38+P Speer Data for the GDSB135JHP bullet into 357 cases with AA#5 (among other powders).

The results of my research are parallel to jibjab's, and to the comments about NOT reducing H-110 or 296.

However, I disagree with Shell Shucker. Generally speaking, there is an extended "hole" in the data in 357 loads--I only found one or two softball 357 loads (using 231 and TiteGroup, IIRC), then jumping on up to 'starting loads' in the 357 Magnum that were typically at 30,000 or above. So, I suppose it depends on what you call "low" 357 loads.

I first tried filling this hole by using Power Pistol, which Speer lists in its data sheets for that bullet in both 38+P and 357. So far, after 1200-1500 test rounds, there is no issue of detonation at all--the 38 data moved into the 357 case nicely. In other words, a standard 38 special recipe--not the softball "2.8 gr. bullseye-148 DEWC" paper-punching loads; I haven't tested them--works just fine in 357 cases, but needs to be tweaked to feel the same and to shoot to the same POA.

Jibjib's recipe seems to be about right, based on my experiences. I found that 8.0 gr. of #5 under a 140LTC mimics very well the Speer factory 38+P GDSB-135 load. With the Speer bullet, it's at 8.5 gr. (Note that these loads are in a modern 38/357 2" J-frame.)

FWIW, the Vitavouri (sp?) manual has a broad range of charges in both 38 and 357. I've just tried out N350, and it's a very impressive powder (for my project)--meters absolutely consistently in Lee measures with adjustable charge bars, low weights (economical), VERY clean burning, and shoots to the same POA over a broad charge range.

Jim H.

[jfh]

deleted

[Steve C]

You can download most powders proportionally till they no longer push the bullet out the end of the barrel.

There are exceptions with H110 and W296 in that they are density sensitive and most data warns about downloading less than 3% or going below their start load. If there is too much unoccupied volume in the case these powders may not ignight or burn and a squib load is the result. A squib is not a detonation or blow up but a load where the powder doesn't burn and the primer pushes the bullet into the barrel. The next round fired can result in a serious problem if the bore obstruction isn't removed first.

There is a "old wives tale" regarding blow ups from too light a load. Usually blamed on .38 wad cutter load using 2.5grs of Bullseye or less. There are pictures showing heavy N frame S&W's with the cylinder and top strap blown off from the reported use of said load. In the mid 70's there was an article in the American Rifleman where Hercules laboratory tried to reproduce this phenomenon. They where never able to reproduce it in the lab but noted that the double or triple charge of Bullseye with this load did have enough pressure to cause such damage and concluded that the incidents where from accidental overcharges.

I've heard people claim that such over pressure has been reproduced in artillery shells with their large volumes but never read the documentation. There are also problems using black powder loads that are not compressed, thus the warning to muzzle loaders to ram the ball or bullet to the powder. Black powder unlike smokeless powder is a true explosive.

IMO the "detonation story" is one told by hand loaders who are unwilling to admit they made an error in their loading and is the result of an overcharge or a stuck bullet bore obstruction.

The common argument goes something like this; "All the other remaining rounds where checked and all the charges where correct thus the one that blew up my gun must have been correct too. Thus it must have been a detonation." This argument has an obvious flaw in that charge weight of the round causing the problem is no longer available to check and requires the assumption that there would have to be more than one mistake in the sample.

[KI.W.]

jfh Yuo know, VihtaVuori makes good thinks. For Cowboy Action Shooters. Test barrel 6" 18,5" twist. Bullet 158gr LSWC/HP: N-330 3,9gr 791frps / 5gr 997fps. N-340 4,5gr 804fps / 5,9gr 1050fps. There is also new powder N- 32C "Tin Star" just for C. A. S. It is "Less free space in the case-powder".

[rcmodel]

"Detonation" of a reduced charge of pistol powder is a Myth!
It simply can't happen!

There is simply not enough energy, or volumn in a small charge of pistol powder to allow detonation to happen.

With that said, blowing up a handgun with 2.5 grains of Bullseye, or any other powder is impossible. Double charges, and stuck bullets on the other hand?
Well, there you go then!

I believe the reports of "detonation" in reduced loads in over-bore magnum rifle cartridges are also a Myth.

I think what actually happens is the light charge (although still large in volume for the bore size) gets an incomplete burn & low pressure starting out, which drives the remaining powder foreword into the neck area of the chamber, which creates a defacto "bore obstruction".
Then, as the pressure does rise rapidly, it can't get out of it's own way fast enough because of the stopped-up case neck.

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rcmodel

[Stinger]

Double tap...

[Stinger]

Triple tap...

[Stinger]

Well! That certainly explains why the three reloading manuals I have make it very clear not to use less H110 than the minimum load shown...

Do they tell you why? And can they prove it?

The danger is in sticking a bullet, not blowing up a gun.

[kestak]

Greetings,

I am new to reloading, but I know some on engineering and material resistance. (Kestak <--Engineer). I'll put it very simply.

The only way I would see a light load be a potential problem would be:

- The bullet gets stuck in the barrel.
- Because the gas can't get out by the barrel, the pressure goes up, the gas hit the bullet and "bounce back" to the brass case, breaks the brass case and exits by the "crack". (Here, there is not really a bounce back -i.e.: bernoulli theorem-, but for the neophyt, it is the best way to describe the situation.)

One thing that must be taken into account, it is the space between the cylinder and the barrel will act as a presure valve and let the gas exit and the pressure will go down.

When a to high load breaks a barrel, it is because the pressure goes too high BEFORE the bullet exits the barrel and BEFORE the gas can exit by the crack between the barrel and the cylinder. If I remember well my theory (I did not use since more than 20 years), a freely moving liquid or gas into a pipe puts no presure on the walls of the pipe and the pressure is only measurable at the mouth and the tail of the pipe.

I seriously doubt a too low load will cause a pressure break in a barrel. I think mostly it was the second shot of a low paying attention shooter hitting a stuck bullet into the barrel that causes the damaged barrel.

Thank you

[Shell Shucker]

JFH, I don't understand what you mean by "an extended hole" in the data. I just looked up Hodgdon's web data. They list 357 loads all the way down to 796fps with 158gr cast bullets (12600 cup). 158gr jacketed bullet loads go down to 1026 fps (32100 cup).
Are you judging "mild" loads based on velocity or pressure? No offence intended.
My favorite mid range 357 load is 6 grains of Hodgdon Universal Clays under a 158 grain cast LSWC at around 1200 fps. Clays is much cleaner than Universal at 38 Special pressure levels.

[pinkymingeo]

.357 cases have less usable volume than 38spl. Any 38spl load will work fine, including the "softball" loads. As previously stated, you can keep dropping the powder charge in a straight-walled pistol case until there's not enough energy to push the bullet down the barrel. Some reduced loads are dirty and inefficient, but they're not unsafe. H110/296 can have ignition problems at reduced loads, so it's not recommended for those two powders.

[gaudio5]

ok read my OP people im using AA#5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not h110/296.

[jfh]

for Shell Shucker: No offense is taken--and I am characterizing "mild" loads as based on the subjective interpretation of pressure--"recoil." Or, more accurately, perceived recoil with a specific firearm. I haven't tried it, but I am not interested in running a 158-gr. bullet out of my 340 (13.3 oz) at 1000 fps.

I've been identifying the 'hole in the middle' of the (357) data primarily by the CUP (typically) by the lack of loads below 32,000, or maybe 30,000 in the .357 case.

As pinkymingeo pointed out about the characteristics of the two cases--38 Special and 357 Magnum, one can load on a "continuum" all the way up. That is not a suggestion that we should build 357 loads in 38 Special cases just because a charge would fit, so no diversion is needed there.

So, Hodgdon's data for Universal with a 140-gr. XTP / jacketed bullet, (arguably a unique one) goes to 5.1 gr in the 38 Special case, and that's a plus-P load (19,100). In the 357 case, their load for the 140-gr. XTP starts at 6.5 grains (34,800). Why not start it below 34,800 in the 357 case?

I asked them about this, and got no straight answer--but that's because they stay on task to say load only from the printed data--the legalese CYA argument.

As I've noted elsewhere, I wanted to build 'replica loads' of the GDSB135JHP factory PD loads--loaded to 38+P pressures but in a 357 case. As noted by others in this thread, the 'detonation / reduced-charge' issue apparently doesn't exist. After shooting over 800 rounds of "357-lite" loads with no issues at all for pressure, I agree.

For gaudio5: After considering the comments here, you could check the data on the Accurate site. In a 38Spl case, they have a #5 load with a 158-gr. Ranier RN that starts at 5.1 gr. Since you didn't specify the bullet weight in the OP, I don't know what else to say.

Jim H.

[Kimber1911_06238]

I usually use .38 data in .357 brass and have come up with some very accurate, mild loads for my gp100

[GP100man]

ok
AA#5 powder
6" test brrl. ,R-p cases ,cci 500primers &158gr. lswc
8.1 gr. = 1073 fps
9.0gr. = 1219 fps 39,100 cup
this is from there site under std. loading& i would consider the 8.1gr. loading a mid range .
gunnersden.com has alot of the info we seek.

GP100man