[Dithsoer]

I have heard that there are federal and/or state laws against "hoarding/stockpiling" of food, ammunition, etc. From what I've heard,even a month's worth of food is in violation of these laws. What about ammunition? Is anyone familiar with any such laws concerning firearms or ammunition? Is there a federal and/or state limit on how much ammunition one can legally store on their premises? Could some of us who just have a few 500 round bricks of .22's be in violation? I've heard that this law even applies to the ability to manufacture the ammunition, i.e. that merely possessing the primers is in violation.

[22-rimfire]

Please tell us about what you have heard and document the states or cities where such laws exist. I personally am not aware of any such laws.

[Jorg]

I'm fairly certain there are no federal laws against having piles of food or ammo.

I haven't heard of state laws on food, but there are some laws about the amount of powder one can store in a residence and such. I sincerely doubt they are going to come after you for a few bricks of .22s.

[Baba Louie]

If it's not a crime, I'm sure that our beloved elected officials would love to find a way to make it so. Well, SOME of our beloved elected officials.
The best way to do that, of course, is for them to not do anything but have one of the Federal Bureacracies claim "Non-Sporting Purpose" for anything over... say... 50 rds. and make THAT their new official policy. Maybe not 50 rds., as dove season alone might qualify a hunter to have maybe 150 rds on hand each day.
But you get the drift.

Shades of Lexington and Concord.

If having more than 30 days of food is illegal, I know several hundred LDS church members who (besides typically being well armed and very self sufficient) would probably put up one heck of a fight. And that's just here in Las Vegas. I can't imagine the entire state of Utah bowing down to such nonsense.

[edited to add] I would think that local Fire Marshalls would have a much more immediate concern with proper storage of ammunition, limiting of quantities and such.

[Dithsoer]

Well, as I said in my original post, it's what I've heard. That's why I was asking if anyone else has heard this or if it is true.
I read the bit about stockpiling ammuntion and primers in a Guns and Ammo magazine years ago. Back then it was an idea that a few liberal politicians had in mind. I've never heard if it was passed, or if a few states copied the notion so I thought I would check it out. I heard the thing about food hoarding at a local RKBA meeting and also on some small-time news broadcast after hurricane Katrina.

[El Tejon]

In which gun store did you hear about this "law"?:scrutiny:

[22-rimfire]

I believe the only issue with storing ammo or related items is "black powder". Other than that, buy all you want. The fire marshall reference above probably relates to that proposed OSHA reg on firearms (and ammo) in the workplace.

Don't get into trouble or you will end up like that guy (who is a bit "off") in Indiana (I believe) who was arrested for things primarily unrelated to the ammunition. He had quite a bit of ammo stockpiled and was preparing for the end of times as we know them today. Folks like that give normal gun owners and shooters a bad name.

[bulgron]

I doubt it.

Here in CA we're told to keep at least a few weeks worth of supplies around in case of an earthquake. I doubt that anyone would blink at month's worth of supplies after Katrina.

Also, Mormons as a matter of religion are supposed to keep a years worth of supplies around (if memory serves), so if there was a law against hoarding it would run afoul of the establishment clause.

[tbtrout]

I believe the laws regarding hoarding of food and supplies only take effect in times of states of emergency. As for ammo I am sure there are laws or town ordinances about ammo storage and quantity somewhere.

[rkh]

Many states do have old anti-hoarding laws on the books. As far as I know, none of them have been enforced in my lifetime.

The Feds and most state governments also have authority to seize private property in areas under a declared state of emergency. Related, but not anti-hoarding per-se.

[thebaldguy]

How would anyone know if you were hoarding food or ammo? Would authorities search every house in the USA? Also, weren't we told to have food and water on hand for emergencies? My hat goes off to the Mormons who have food and water for such emergencies; it's always a good idea to be prepared.

Per our government, I tried to get an extra month's supply of my medication to keep on hand. My health insurance company wouldn't let me; I can only refill my perscriptions when I have a week or less left. Great. God forbid we have a national emergency, and I run out of drugs I need.

Nothing is worse than trying to prepare, and finding out you're not allowed to.

[CWL]

Are you perhaps a resident of Zimbabwe?

[MICHAEL T]

Well if theirs a law against it .Went they come for it. Make sure to give them the ammo first and have a big last supper.:eek:

[Dithsoer]

In which gun store did you hear about this "law"?

The Bavarian Store in Southwest MI.
For some reason, a few people are confusing the wording, "I heard this, I don't know if it's true, has anyone else heard this? Is it true?" with "This is the gospel truth; accept it."
I searched the subject "food hoarding laws" on A.O.L. and found some interesting information. I tried to put some of the links in my post here but for some reason I can't get it to work. However, the name of the site is "Millennium-Ark: Executive Orders and Storing-Is It Lawful?" Just copy out and paste this in your Search line. It also has a link for assisting in the search for specific state policies.

[kansas45]

Oh. Hoarding.....................................:rolleyes: I thought you said......never mind. :D

[kurtmax]

I've always hated how prescription medication works. I hope I never have to take any to stay alive. Any large national emergency and a significant section of the population is probably going to die off since they can't get meds....

Onto the topic: I don't know of any laws against stockpiling. There might be some obscure rule about how much explosive powder you can keep somewhere without having some proper equipment or something, but I doubt it applies to powder already inside casings.....

[Fisherman_48768]

The only time you will see "hoarding" of anything being illegal is after the bureaucrats have figured that they can't tax us for having too much of anything. Thats one reason the Kennedy's have all their money offshore, they have too much and don't want it taxed.

[Baba Louie]

http://members.aol.com/poesgirl/storing.html
Some discussion from 1998 along the general topic of hoarding and Executive Orders.These EOs are not aimed at anti-hoarding but rather at seizure or confiscation of items and facilities "to provide a state of readiness in these resource areas with respect to all conditions of national emergency, including attack upon the United States." You'll find most 'seizure' legislation ends with this phrase. These Executive Orders don't define what specifically constitutes a national emergency and maybe this is as it should be. The specifics on hoarding are left up to the individual states.

Title 50 and Hoarding
There are anti-hoarding references under Title 50 War And National Defense, Section 2072. Stripping off the legalese, it says no one shall accumulate goods in excess of "reasonable amounts" for business, personal or home consumption which could become scarce, "goods" to be designated by the President. Penalties for doing so may result in fines of not more than $10,000 and/or one year imprisonment.

Since Title 50 is about expire September 30, 1998, does this mean we are home-free? Not with the implementation of EO #13083, the "Federalism" EO, and this could be one explanation for its existence. There is also state anti-hoarding legislation. The bases are pretty well covered. Old info, but points to FEMA and States laws in times of national or local crisis or emergencies and is, it appears, open to governmental interpretation.

But a google/yahoo search turns up no (apparently immediate) Federal Laws but lots of stuff on old people "animal hoarding" and "money-hoarding" law firms... (but I didn't get too deep into reading various sites.)

Not something I'm going to worry about actually vis a vis firearms or ammunition. But 'thebaldguy' has an excellent point about legal pharmaceuticals as us 'baby-boomers' get older. If I can find my 15 year old tin foil hat, I might be able to recollect something about FEMA and 7 regions of USA jurisdiction, travel control via Federal Interstate, yada yada.

Dithsoer, et al, next time some know-it-all lays this on you, ask for specific legislation. In the meantime, remember the Boy Scout motto and "Be Prepared". For anything.

[W.E.G.]

The fire code usually says something like this:

"The possession, storage and use of not more than 1 pound (0.454 kg) of commercially manufactured sporting black powder, 20 pounds (9 kg) of smokeless powder and 10,000 small arms primers for hand loading of small arms ammunition for personal consumption."
example: http://www.sbcc.wa.gov/docs/codes/IFC03e1.pdf

The code is usually silent on ammunition per se. I do worry that some Fire Marshal with an agenda might write a summons charging >10,000 primers if he discovered >10,000 rounds of ammunition.

So, if you have lots of ammo at your house, KYBMS.

[Jorg]

My health insurance company wouldn't let me; I can only refill my perscriptions when I have a week or less left.

You mean they wouldn't pay for them. I have no doubt you can get them filled if you pay for them out of your own pocket.

[def4pos8]

Municipalities may/may not regulate storage of flammables in residences. It's a local fire code thing.

I was forced to remove my ready ammunition and primers/powder one fine morning due to a chimney fire. The fire company captain remarked that I had a "healthy" amount -- carried out in four, .50cal cans and stored that way for such situations as this -- but well within the local limit of 50lbs.

Citizens could POSSES more than 50lbs. It simply had to be stored in a fire-resistant locker or shed, more than 75 feet from the dwelling.

My chimney fire was a good example of why local fire codes like this exist.

[RangerVA]

No Such laws in Virginia.

[obxned]

Tell them you are LDS and a 2 year stock of food is a religious obligation and you have a friend who is an ACLU lawyer.

[cnorman18]

On prescription meds: first tell your doctor what you're doing, then get him to write you a separate script for one of those mail-order prescription services that sends out a 3-month supply at a time. Pay for it out of pocket and keep getting your regular supply in the usual way. That way you can at least have a 3-month supply on hand. Expensive, but I can't see a way around that.

Sometimes you can get the insurance company to cough up if you tell them you accidentally dumped a bottle of pills down a drain. Actually happened to me once...

If you need any kind of painkiller, like oxycodone or whatever, you probably can't do it, though, either way.

[Ditchtiger]

I don't hoard ammo, I'm just collecting lots of various kinds of ammo

[cpttango30]

I see nothing rong with hording food and supplies for your family. You never know what might happen. If i get below 3000 rounds of ammo I get nervous and have to go load more.

I live in a townhouse and we have a nice sized pantry we keep enought food for about a month on hand. I thought most families do this?

[RobTzu]

There is no such thing as hoarding. Just like there is no such thing as price gouging.

"May you dance in the winter to the tune you sang in the summer."

[Howard Roark]

The Alabama Free Militia was charged with stockpiling:

But he said it's not common to find the types of improvised rifle grenades found in Thursday's raid. It's a "very unusual seizure," he said.

Those in custody aren't being charged with any plot to use the grenades against anyone, however, but will be charged with weapons possession and stockpiling.

"These are people who operate in sort of a fringe paranoia world, they feel they need all these weapons to exist, they're somewhat fearful," Cavanaugh said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268726,00.html

[sublimaze41]

;)Having "alot" of ammo on hand does not make you a nut. Heck, I am less worried about armagedon hitting than I am about ammo price hikes. Read........CHEAPSKATE.

[Baba Louie]

Read........CHEAPSKATEHahaha.
Read "WISE". ;)
In one of Col. Cooper's books, he opines that in times of future strife and woe, perhaps ammunition might be used as barter "currency".
While some might argue that you CAN have too many guns (perish the thought), you can NEVER have too much ammunition (when stored properly of course).

[xjchief]

For medications you've got two options:

1. Pay out of pocket for an extra month or months. (Don't stash it, use it and keep one fresh batch on hand.

2. Go back a week early each time and start saving a week supply per month.

[jkingrph]

My health insurance company wouldn't let me; I can only refill my perscriptions when I have a week or less left.

You mean they wouldn't pay for them. I have no doubt you can get them filled if you pay for them out of your own pocket.
__________________
As a pharmacist, I would not always have a problem with dispensing large quantities, depending upon what the medication was and who the patient is.

There is always the consideration of proper storage for long term stability/potency. If the medication is changed the patient is stuck with it, as medications are non returnable( would you want to receive a medication that an unknown person had possibly stored and or handled under improper unclean conditiions) Some of these medications are very, very expensive, and I am going to make my profit( after all I have to buy my guns and ammo too), a years supply of one popular cholesterol lowering agent costs the pharmacy just under $400 for a 90 day supply figure that at a year plus the pharmacy profit or however many you might want, that's just one example.

Yes, if society , manufacturing, and distribution collapses, people are going to suffer and die as a result, primarily from a lack of food, possibly proper shelter, and medical care ( all phases not just pharmaceuticals).

The bottom line is at some point we shall have to go back to basics, and a more primitive way of living, at least for a while.

[stevelyn]

I hoard. I'll probably run out of food long before I run out of ammo........no that won't happen either. My halibut hole is about a mile from my front door.

I'm continually gathering a supply because I never know when I'll get up to Los Anchorage to shop.

[everallm]

If I recall correctly, the original laws were enacted in both WW1 and WW2 predominately for strategic supplies and to attempt to control profiteering.

As is traditional in law, once on the statute books there they stay......I have yet to come across a lawyer who believes FEWER laws are the way to go :D

[zoom6zoom]

With ammo, these days it's called investing, not stockpiling!

[Fisherman_48768]

Basics that you need to gather in your stockpile:
1. Food
2. Water
3. Lead
4. Gold
5. Silver

[CWL]

"Hoarding" is only holding onto critical supplies during a time of crisis. We aren't experiencing this yet with anything in the USA.

We live in a land of plenty. Everyone is allowed to lay in as great a supply of anything that they want. If it wasn't true, then every Walmart & CostCo would have been closed-down long ago.

[Green Lantern]

You mean they wouldn't pay for them. I have no doubt you can get them filled if you pay for them out of your own pocket.

I'd change it to "LITTLE" doubt, depending on what the medicine is. Most pharmacists I work with frown on letting certain meds (controlled substances) out more than a few days early, insurance OR cash.

To boot, a LOT of doctors around here write "must last 30 days" oin the directions on controlled meds. One does it on EVERTYTHING she writes, even if it's just blood pressure med. We tend to "ignore" that directive unless it's a controlled substance or something that can be abused.

Anyway, don't knock the insurance thing. I can't afford my own medicine Out-Of-Pocket, but by getting my refills as SOON as they allow, I have a 2-month supply on hand now. 'Course, it takes TIME to do it that way.

As for being laws against hoarding food and ammo - the .gov is telling us TO stockpile food and meds and such for an emergency, I don't see them passing a law against that any time soon - besides actually making SENSE, it helps cover their rear after a huge disaster like Katrina.

But, since they'd NEVER say that GUNS are a vital "emergency tool...!"

I'd sure keep my eyes OPEN for such a law to be snuck in at federal, state, or local level!

BTW, +1 to CWL - keep the terminology straight. NOBODY is "hoarding" right now. In fact, the more people stock up NOW while things are good, the less temptation there *should* be to really hoard if things get...NOT so good.

[Jorg]

I'd change it to "LITTLE" doubt, depending on what the medicine is. Most pharmacists I work with frown on letting certain meds (controlled substances) out more than a few days early, insurance OR cash.

You are, of course, correct. I didn't take controlled substances into account. However, I think those would be the exception rather than the rule. Most things folks need: insulin, asthma medication, heart meds, etc. should be obtainable either pay paying out of pocker or doing what you did, filling them before they completely run out and getting slightly ahead each month.

[AntiqueCollector]

Best to keep quiet about the exact details of anything you have as part of "preps." FEMA may try confiscation, though I will say, that my survival comes before their stupid un-Constitutional executive orders, and they'll need to fight to get my stuff (food/other supplies) and it will be destroyed before they get it if it comes to that...

[.cheese.]

I think such laws only exist to prevent stores from not selling to people in times of emergency.

Like for example, I think it's illegal for the local supermarket to shut down just prior to a hurricane because all of the employees decided they want all the food and water for themselves.

I'm not sure about this, I just vaguely remember hearing about it.

Or if there is massive chaos and people need weapons and ammo to protect their homes, I think it would be illegal for the gun-store owner to shut down to keep it all for himself.

Again.... this is just off the top of my head from fuzzy memories of hearing of something like it.

Pay no attention to me.

[feedthehogs]

I think it's illegal for the local supermarket to shut down just prior to a hurricane because all of the employees decided they want all the food and water for themselves
No laws here in Florida like that. Only price gouging.

Any business man with any sense would keep their doors open right up to the hurricane hit. Panic makes people buy things. Buying things puts money in a business man's pocket. He'd be pretty stupid to close early.



I have not one doubt if marshall law was declared for some reason, that what ever law was in charge, would confiscate food and medical supplies from individuals and redistribute them for the "good of everyone".
N.O. has already proven that the law enforcers will even ignore a court order to ceast collecting firearms.

Under marshall law and no constitution, we are SOL!

Only regulations I know of are local fire reg's on proper storage of flammable or combustable materials which ammo or the components there of, are.

[Green Lantern]

You are, of course, correct. I didn't take controlled substances into account. However, I think those would be the exception rather than the rule. Most things folks need: insulin, asthma medication, heart meds, etc. should be obtainable either pay paying out of pocker or doing what you did, filling them before they completely run out and getting slightly ahead each month.

I dunno....as a pharmacy tech, I see quite a lot of people that suffer from chronic pain, or nerve problems...heck, even "ADHD" - all things that might well require controlled or narcotic meds to manage.

Just yesterday, I had to explain to a new foster parent over the phone that we couldn't just call/fax his kid's doctor for a refill on his ADHD med, someone would have to go to the office and get a written script for it.

Yeah, there is a LOT of abuse of controlled substances, but I fear that any "crap hits the fan" event as they call it, could lead to SERIOUS hardship for people that have a legitimate need for these meds.

I have not one doubt if marshall law was declared for some reason, that what ever law was in charge, would confiscate food and medical supplies from individuals and redistribute them for the "good of everyone".
N.O. has already proven that the law enforcers will even ignore a court order to ceast collecting firearms.

Under marshall law and no constitution, we are SOL!

That is why it's imperative to "keep your head down" in regards to ANY emergency supplies you own. :eek:

[Polishrifleman]

I don't know if Hoarding is the right word.

Stockpiling is a term used in the news. I don't know if there are laws against it but there are several references in the news about individuals and groups being "Accused of Stockpiling" but when it comes to charges and breaking the law they describe illegal possession of an illegal weapon, not on an:

OH MY GOSH THAT IS TOO MANY GUNS FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO HAVE!!!:eek:

I think they like the word for the shock value.

[whited]

I think it would be illegal for the gun-store owner to shut down to keep it all for himself

Assuming the owner of the store owned the items within the property, he
could close the place and do as he wished with the property and its contents.

[Zundfolge]

That is why it's imperative to "keep your head down" in regards to ANY emergency supplies you own.
True. That and if things get harry, your friends and neighbors (the grasshoppers that didn't "hoard") will show up at your door wanting free stuff.

[Average Joe]

Nonsense !

[fred in nc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have always heard that in the Mormon religion, people are told to lay up a supply of food equivalent to about a year's supply of canned and non-perishable foods.

[Maximum1]

Come on now are we American's so naive that we would really believe "I have heard that there are federal and/or state laws against "hoarding/stockpiling" of food, ammunition, etc."


geez whiz.............

[Green Lantern]

fred - you are correct. But apparently being Mormon isn't "normal" enough for a lot of folk. Like a lot of arguments I hear about Mitt Romney have NO substance, since they start and end with "he's a MORMON!" *shock horror* :rolleyes:

In other words, I fear that Joe Average would have no problem with a law laying it to "those guys."

Sure, the .gov TELLS us to stockpile to a point. But how much is "enough" to them?

If I wore my tinfoil just a little tighter, I might wonder if the government does not really WANT people to stock up a lot of stuff so they can come and "help" those that put back supplies "re-distribute" them "for the common good?"

Sure might make the .gov look BETTER the next big emergency when their 'well-laid plans' go awry, when they can just fall back on knocking down doors till they get enough provisions to do everyone till the government aid arrives?

[Logan5]

If I wore my tinfoil just a little tighter, I might wonder if the government does not really WANT people to stock up a lot of stuff so they can come and "help" those that put back supplies "re-distribute" them "for the common good?"

Sure might make the .gov look BETTER the next big emergency when their 'well-laid plans' go awry, when they can just fall back on knocking down doors till they get enough provisions to do everyone till the government aid arrives?

Anyone in any kind of trucking business want to speculate on how much that would suck to coordinate under ideal conditions? The cost effectiveness of deliveries of pallet sized quantities of MRE's is kind of in doubt beyond a certain level if you don't have a professionally staffed, dedicated dispatch center with a routing software package. This is one reason why we don't have milkmen anymore. Almost none of those software packages can be configured to do it in reverse. It's a tinfoil hat scenario because it's really incredibly close to never that that kind of thing would be worth doing.

[torpid]

I have heard that there are federal and/or state laws against "hoarding/stockpiling" of food, ammunition, etc.

In which gun store did you hear about this "law"?:scrutiny:

The Bavarian Store in Southwest MI.


:D

Who knew El T. was Carnac the Magnificent?

.

[Mtnvalley]

Google up using the terms "executive order food hoarding" or the like. Here (http://www.infowars.com/articles/new_orleans/fema_orders_pave_way_ps_hell.htm)'s one entry that provides decent summary with links to the actual EO text. The "laws" you're referring to are actually presidential EO's.

WRT stockpiling (non-narcotic) maintenance meds you take but running into the insurance limitation- most insurance companies have no problem covering a refill 3-5 days (varies by company) before the due date. Squirrel away a few extra pills each month by refilling early, and within a few months you've got at least a 2-week emergency supply at nominal cost (a few days less between your copays).

[Prince Yamato]

I think you CAN be charged with a crime if you store too much black powder in certain residential neighborhoods (ie, the same as if you stored a tanker truck of gasoline in your driveway). Basically, you're unsafely storing vast amounts of explosive chemicals in a residential neighborhood. I believe there was a post a couple months back about some guy storing a couple (tons?) of the stuff in a suburban home.

[kludge]

Per our government, I tried to get an extra month's supply of my medication to keep on hand. My health insurance company wouldn't let me; I can only refill my perscriptions when I have a week or less left. Great. God forbid we have a national emergency, and I run out of drugs I need.

Will your doctor write you an additional 30-90 day prescription? Then go to another pahrmacy and pay cash.

Can you find another doctor who will do it? Just explain you want an emergency supply just incase, and then rotate it.

On a side note, I am LDS, and yes we are encouraged to have a one year supply of food, water, medicine, money, and fuel where/if possible, but it's not only for natural disasters, it can be if you lose a job, or whatever. Firearms are never been mentioned in this context. We are also encouraged to get out and stay out of debt... only for homes, possibly an education, and maybe a vehicle.

[Baba Louie]

...and yes we are encouraged to have a one year supply of food, water, medicine, money, and fuel where/if possible, but it's not only for natural disasters, it can be if you lose a job, or whatever. Firearms are never been mentioned in this context. We are also encouraged to get out and stay out of debt... only for homes, possibly an education, and maybe a vehicle.
Sound advice no matter age, religion, color or creed, doncha think?

[Green Lantern]

most insurance companies have no problem covering a refill 3-5 days (varies by company) before the due date.

In my experience working at a pharmacy, "7" is the magic number for MOST plans. I've seen a VERY few make you use it all up(!), and some will do 8 days early. Some 'discount cards,' while only offering a meager amount off the cost, don't give a flip WHEN you fill it. IE, get it filled Monday and come back in Tuesday for another months worth!

Will your doctor write you an additional 30-90 day prescription? Then go to another pahrmacy and pay cash. If you have the doctor's blessing, then really no NEED to go to another pharmacy for it. Heck, if you have refills and are willing to pay cash - and it's not a controlled med or another one that would raise eyebrows - you may not even need a new script from the doctor.

IE, someone comes in and says, "I'm going on vacation for a bit and need my HCTZ. I know insurance won't cover it because it's 2 weeks early, so I'll just pay cash." We say "m'kay" and fill it. Don't see why it would be any different if someone mentions "emergency supply" instead of "vacation."

Change "HCTZ" to "Xanax" though, and we'll need to get the doctor involved just to make sure it's all on the up-and-up. Nothing personal, just covering our rears.

[QuickDraw]

I have Kaiser insurance.My Doc gives me a 90 day
supply.I also asked him to write me one for Costco.
Little known fact:You don't need to be a member to use the
pharmacy,great prices.
Anyway,he asks,what for?
I told him for emergency/earthquakes.
His response:Good idea,I should do that!:D
I usually have a 2-300 day supply!