[Blueduck]

In a fairly ugly dispute with S/W's Service Department I finally got official word on cylinder gaps from Kate Fredette. Since it seems a fairly common question thought I'd pass it along.

First the acceptable gap range is .004" to .010". Second (and a bit more surprising to myself) is that a revolver with a .006" gap on one side and .010" on the other is perfectly fine and requires no work.

Guess you can take this as proof that gap is of less consequence than many believe, or that S/W's Service Department has descended to the point that they are no longer qualified to work on the very revolvers the company manufactures.

I'll let those more knowledgeable than myself sort that out...

[Mike Irwin]

"S/W's Service Department has descended to the point that they are no longer qualified to work on the very revolvers the company manufactures."

Partial credit.

I think even more so that it's a damned good indication that S&W is no longer qualified to manufacture the revolvers that they do.

.004 runout on the face of the barrel extension?

Christ...

I wonder what's out of whack with that revolver....

And people wonder why I've been screaming about the declining quality of S&W for nearly 10 years now.

I knew we were in for a heap of trouble when the ability to screw a barrel in so that the front sight is vertical started escaping them.

[Standing Wolf]

...people wonder why I've been screaming about the declining quality of S&W for nearly 10 years now.

It's an older problem than that, but it does seem to be going from bad to worse.

[wingman]

I think this issue spreads across more consumer items then just guns. I worked
in quality control some years back and seen a bad trend, get the product out
the door no matter what, if the customer finds the problem we will fix it, if not
good. Greed and the bottom line has hurt us.!!!

My 60's made model 19 is nothing short of excellent no reason companies can't do this today.!!! :cuss:

[Jim March]

And this, folks, is why you run the checkout on a new gun :scrutiny:.

[WebHobbit]

This is no surprise to me either after my recent go round over my 640. S&W is no loger the highest quality DA revolver maker. I guess that's Ruger now?

[degmon]

Voice on phone probably thinks the gap you are talking about needs to be handled by an orthodontist. Personnel problem. What a pity since new owners seem to be really trying to find the formula to recapture their loyal following.
They have rescinded agreements the Brit owners made with Ms. Brady's vigilantes, rejected the Bangor-Punta philosophy that festered before that, and have brought ownership back to where the second amendment exists and matters.
Yes, they need to get a handle on craftsmanship(and damn sure on WHO answers the phone), but they are now USA Proud, and need our help while they purge the system. The ghosts of pre-1960 and pre-war craftsmen might still be lurking in ol D.B.'s workplace, just waiting for the chance to prove that quality and pride in workmanship can still be found in American firearms.
Sorry about the littany, but I really think they need our support. And "our support" means holding their feet to the fire, and letting them know we recognize crap when we smell it, and won't accept it.
My 2 cents(inflation?)....dennis

[Blueduck]

As for the revolver it was actually an older model (made in 70's). Got no issues with a gun this old having a problem or two and I am more than happy to acknowledge my full responsibilty pay to have those issues corrected on a product with no warranty. Bought the gun kind of unexpectidily when out of town without my gauges or the "Check out" would have been done (lesson learned there).

My real problem is that S/W's standards have declined so much they're gunsmiths seem totally confused as to why in the world I would consider .004" of runout to even be an issue. When questioned as to this the Service rep Kate e-mailed me back: "It is ok for the BC gap not to be the same. John checked with the gages when I was there and said it does not have to be the same on both sides." :rolleyes:

Lots more to this tangled story but I've saved e-mails and am awaiting both the gun and a response from some other parties before I get too much into detail about the other stuff to give everyone the full benefit of the doubt.

This does bring up an issue though. I love the older S/W's and have several but if the factory is no longer competent to work on them, C/C and other respected shops reportidly having months long waiting list... are we S/W lovers going to end up like 1927 Bentely owners? Having a wonderfull mechanical device, but really no one left to service or repair them???

[BigG]

Are you sure that wasn't used to pistol whip somebody thereby knocking the bbl out of kilter? That sometimes happens, you know.

[Old Fuff]

I won’t try to justify the runout of .004 or more, but I understand how it happens. Even in the “old days” final assemblers at the factory would file the back of the barrel if the cylinder/barrel gap was deemed to be too tight. This usually wasn’t a problem when skilled workers weren’t pressured to “get the job done quick,” but during the late 60’s and 70’s that wasn’t the case. Jim March is completely correct when he says to check the gap before making the purchase.

Excluding Dan Wesson revolvers the only way I know to get the barrel truly square and flat would be to make it slightly long, assemble it, determine how much to material to remove, and then unscrew the barrel and true it in a lathe. Brownells sells some tooling that allows one to true the barrel shank after it has been assembled, but this usually requires that the barrel be set back first.

[J Miller]

Blueduck,

This doesn't surprise me. I have an early 80's 25-5 that needs some servicing. After over 6000 rounds it is worn in a place or two.

The jerk at the S&W service dept. just flat out told me it was "junk" and they wouldn't do anything about it. Sight unseen, didn't even want me to send it back. I didn't even ask for it to be fixed under warrenty.
I haven't talked to Kate Fredette because I no longer have any faith in that company.

If, and that is IF I keep my two S&W's I'll send them to Cylinder & Slide or some other company that knows what they are doing.

To be bluntly honest, the S&W that I would want to buy guns from doesn't exist anymore. Therefore I have to buy elsewhere.

JMHO

[WebHobbit]

I will probably trade off my 686 5 inch at the next local Gun Show.

Probably just trade it for a new GP100.


It's sad really...the end of an era.

[Old Fuff]

Web Hobbit:

I wouldn't trade that 686 until it had a through examination (as recommended by Jim March). While some S&W revolvers are not what they should be many are just fine. It all depends on the experience of the particular assembler that put it together. If a careful check-up doesn't find anything wrong why dump it? The GP-100 you get may (or may not) be perfect either. Unfortunately no one builds them like they used to.

[WebHobbit]

Well, aside from me not being crazy about the High Viz sights it's fine since they tightened up the BC and smoothed the trigger. I suppose trading it for "political reasons" would be stupid as it IS a rare gun.

And though it does have MIM parts it's also PRE-LOCK.

;)

[mec]

at one time, I had a Bangor Punta 4" 29 with a ten thousanths gap. With several loads using unique, 2400 and 296 it produced velocities equal to those from revolvers with nicer sounding gaps. i do believe the gap was consistent from one side of the cylinder to the other.

[Blueduck]

Well for one I'm not gonna sell my 19's and 18 for Rugers (not that the thought had not crossed my mind over this deal). Would not really hurt the company but would hurt my bank account once I figured in buying bunch of new holsters, speeloaders, tools etc.. I will find a way to get it fixed and fixed right. After that however, no more S/W's for me.

Even used guns which they make no money off of are going to need serviced or repaired in the future and having a factory "service" center that I can't respect or get along with is a flat deal breaker for me.

R...ew.g..er-- Rua...ger--R..u..ger--- Ruger!

There! yeah I can handle that! I'm now a Ruger guy :) and I do have some Win 296 powder thats been sitting on the shelf...

[bountyhunter]

In a fairly ugly dispute with S/W's Service Department I finally got official word on cylinder gaps from Kate Fredette. Since it seems a fairly common question thought I'd pass it along. First the acceptable gap range is .004" to .010". Second (and a bit more surprising to myself) is that a revolver with a .006" gap on one side and .010" on the other is perfectly fine and requires no work.

Guess you can take this as proof that gap is of less consequence than many believe, or that S/W's Service Department has descended to the point that they are no longer qualified to work on the very revolvers the company manufactures.

I'll let those more knowledgeable than myself sort that out...

Tecnically, it is true that a revo with an .006" gap on some holes and .010" gap on others will shoot OK.... but it is equally certain it won't group worth a damn. Bullet velocity is affected by the b/c gap, which changes how far the bullet drops under gravity by the time it reaches the target. Ergo, different velocities means different POI and bigger groups.

So two the comment:

"Second (and a bit more surprising to myself) is that a revolver with a .006" gap on one side and .010" on the other is perfectly fine and requires no work."

I would say it's half right: it is not true that it's perfectly fine, it apparrently is true that it is not going to receive any work.

[Old Fuff]

Web Hobbit:

Since you don't particularly like the 686 why not sell it to a collector, hopefully for a profit, and then use part of the money to buy the Ruger you like better? You can have the best of both worlds.

Blueduck:

What model Smith & Wesson are we talking about? I might have a constructive suggestion.

[WebHobbit]

Old Fluff - I'm undecided about it. I LOVE the balance of the 5 inch barrel. I love the 7 shot cylinder.

On the other hand:

I don't like the sites too much & I prefer the old forged parts with the hammer mounted firing pin.

[JohnK]

I will probably trade off my 686 5 inch at the next local Gun Show.

Webhobbit, Davidsons had a run of 5" GP100's made a little while ago, seems like that would be the one to get if you like the 5" barrel length.

[EJ]

BLUEDUCK---
a revolver with a .006" gap on one side and .010" on the other

I've been following this and I'm not quite sure what you are saying by "SIDE"

I was an armorer and went through the S&W school in the very early eighties--

If you mean the gap is different on each side of the bbl when a single or any chamber // cylinder charge hole is indexed --

\
Then the Bbl is not even or true and it needs to be squared--



That means a factory fix or very well equipped tool shop--
Resetting the Bbl after truing it--

------------------------------------


If you mean that the gap is .006 with one cylinder //charge hole indexed and .010 with another charge hole indexed --

Then the problem is that the yoke is not level // true--

OR-- The cyl face is canted -- cut unevenly--(seems unlikely)


If the latter --(Yoke) situation is the case AND the Cyl face is true --

the fix is relatively easy --
The Yoke needs to be squared and either peened if the Gunsmith has the tools or spaced with washers from Brownells or Power --

Any trained armorer or reasonably knowledgable local gunsmith could do the latter fix for a relatively minor fee-- Shouldn't be more than fifty bucks or so--

[Blueduck]

Thanks for info E.J. the problem is that it measures .006" on the left side and .010" on the right regardless of which cylinder its on. bbl needs to be trued.

I'm assuming this would be no harder than the standard $70 job to mill for one new turn and new cut just like they do for a standard oversize cylinder gap. I'd have been happy with that.

Was not given that option though, just got an e-mail explaining that the gun was "in spec" as is, and that it was being returned. Guess since I complained about it being three weeks later than I was told, they assumed I wanted it back unrepaired, oh they did clean it, and take out my Wolff rebound spring...Gee thanks S/W!. My guns always enjoy a nice long vacation out of state getting nothing accomplished, but two in a year is a bit much:rolleyes: A third trip will not be occuring.

I'm done with S/W. Any suggestions on who I could send it to for work???

[EJ]

I'm near the Ill // Wi border-
A shop in Delavan Wisc--Dam Road Gun shop has done similar work for me--
And I think some Gander Mtn shops are capable --
Cyl & Slide and Power Custom could do it--
Don't know how much--$


No excuse for S&W's attitude--
The cockeyed Bbl is definitely not the workmanship we should espect from a quality firearm manufacturer--

Sorry for your experiance--


:rolleyes:


I own a lot of S&Ws -- but none newer than the 1990's (early)

[Blueduck]

Thanks again EJ, I'll check them out.

[Old Fuff]

Web Hobbit:

I'd check Davidson's and see if they had a 5" GP-100 - that might be an option. Also I believe the front sight blade in the 686 is pinned in the ramp. Since they polish off the ends of the pin(s) you have too look very closely to see them (or "it" as the case may be). If this is the way it is the front sight blade can be replaced with a conventional one. That might also solve your problem.

Blueduck:

If your revolver is one with a pined barrel a god pistolsmith can remove it, set the sholder back one thread turn, true the end of the barrel (if it's crooked) and screw the barrel back with the correct gap. This is not a difficult job for someone who has the tools. Changing one of the new "unpined" barrels is a factory job however.

If you ever send a gun to anyone for work again be sure to state, in writing, that you want any replaced parts returned to you. Then if they don't you'll have them between a rock and a hard place ...

[Blueduck]

Thanks Old Fuff,

I apologize for missing your earlier question on make and model. It's a 19-3 so it does in fact have a pinned bbl.

I learned A BUNCH from this experience and the "Return parts" idea is now added to that list. I didn't even get into the whole story (other issues with gun) because it would take a post so long nobody would read it ;) but so far mistakes I won't make again:

1. Travel with tools to do proper checkout (never know when you'll be out of town and run into a specimen you've been looking for).

2. Don't EVER trust a factory inspection as meaning a gun is right, or even safe and functional.

3. Phone conversations never existed. E-mail or letters leave records.

4. Never bother discussing anything with "Service personnel" (i.e. Kate), ask for the person who will actually be doing the works extension.

5. Don't assume just because it's the "factory" they have the slightest clue what they are doing. Maybe to put it in a kinder manner, understand that "it goes bang doesn't it?" might be the standard of excellense currently strived for.

6. Take any aftermarket parts out, or ask for them back.

Part I'm working on now is that if you get screwed over write and call every person you find find by name up and down the corporate chain. Won't help my case, but might make them think twice before doing this to the next guy...

[Old Fuff]

I think you have you're ducks in a row, and a 19-3 is well worth fixing. I have set back barrels and then faced them with a tool Brownells has. If the barrel is set back you can have a new and better throat cut too. Pick a good pistolsmith and in the long run the enjoyment you get will make up for this mess.

If you haven't done so get a catalog from Brownells (www.brownells.com) and through them buy a copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's "Smith & Wesson Revolver - A Shop Manual." After reading it you'll know so much nobody will be able to hand you a bunch of bull. Nothing like knowing the answers in advance. Also keep in mind that there are a lot of good older S&W revolvers around - sometimes for very attractive prices.

[Baba Louie]

Discussed this one with my dear old Dad who's worked on a revolver or two.

Don't know where in MO you're at Blueduck, but Dad said that Ron Powers moved from Independence MO down to the Lake a while back (Warsaw or Gravois Mills, he didn't remember which).

Give them a call and see what they say. They know a little something about revolvers, I've been told :D , and you'll be keeping the money (and gun) in state. Heck, you might even make a new friend or two.

Adios

[Mike Irwin]

One thing that would have to be determined before setting the barrel back...

Is the barrel face, in fact, the culprit?

Or is there another reason why it's out of whack?

Is the frame sprung?

Is the crane bent?

[Old Fuff]

Mike;

You have some good points, but I presumed those things were checked when the gun was returned to Smith & Wesson, or at least they should have been.

But maybe not ....

[Blueduck]

but I presumed those things were checked when the gun was returned to Smith & Wesson, or at least they should have been.

Ack!! Please don't even get me started on that Old Fuff.

When the gun was returned from it's initial trip to S/W for a trigger job and inspection (it was to be my new carry gun so I splurged letting the "experts do the work). I showed up at qualifcation assuming (yeah, big mistake on my part) I had a good to go gun because S/W had inspected it.

Yoke was so far off it clanged the range rod bad on two cylinders (armorer had to work on it so I could even shoot that day). The "trigger job" was also pretty lousy. The gap thing was really only a small part of the whole problem I had with S/W over this deal. Anyway I won't get into it again, already posted the whole story over at the S/W forum if anyone wants details.

Anyway I fixed the "trigger job" I paid $87 for this afternoon, yoke is now straight, got some leads on Gunsmiths to address the gap issue, and have learned A WHOLE LOT OF LESSONS in dealing with S/W. I've previously had quality work and customer service there and now I've had lousy quality work and worse customer service. YMMV. I won't use them ever again for any service and they just lost several future sales due to the behavior of staff. S/W won't die because of losing my sales, and I'll get along fine without them, life goes on :cool:

Thanks everyone for all the help, just really wish Mike had not mentioned the possibility of a sprung frame being the underlying issue:banghead: Remember he who tells the truth will be run out of nine villages ;)

[schapman43]

Looks like cylinder and slide can fix you up

RR001 Set barrel back one turn. Reset cylinder gap and re-cut throat. Includes refitting Ejector Rod Tube 99.75
RR002 Re-cut and polish barrel throat for better accuracy 39.50
RR005 Cylinder & Slide Flat Line Porting - "The Most Effective Porting Available" : 2"-3.5" Barrels - 2 Ports per Side

4" Barrels - 3 Ports per Side

5" Barrels - 4 Ports per Side

6" - 8" Barrels - 5 Ports per Side
144.50
RR006 Re-crown Barrel with 11° Crown for Improved Accuracy 39.50
RR007 Re-crown barrel with Square Recessed Target Crown 78.75
RR008 Shorten and re-crown barrel with 11° Crown and install new front sight 204.75
RR009 Re-align barrel to cylinder chambers to correct plug strike (misalignment) 68.25

[Mike Irwin]

"You have some good points, but I presumed those things were checked when the gun was returned to Smith & Wesson, or at least they should have been."

I don't presume anything with Smith & Wesson's service department these days, and haven't for a LONG time.

I've been hearing enough disturbing things from S&W owners to the point where even before the politicial issues cropped up I wouldn't send any of my guns back to the company for work.

[Sven]

What kind of company could be so ASLEEP to what the general public (as voiced through enthusiasts here on the forums) thinks of their product, demonstrated through objective verification time and time again.

Do folks at S&W with the power to change things even read these threads?

[Mike Irwin]

I sincerely doubt it, Sven.

Some time ago (somtime in 1998, IIRC) I sent several e-mails to the company on a variety of subjects.

It took weeks to get responses, and then the responses that I did get didn't answer my questions.

In addition, it looked as if they had been typed by a drunken, stoned, and dying monkey.

What grammar there was didn't appear to originate in the English language. I'm thinking Ferengi, possibly Klingon.

Capitalization? Punctuation? Those obviously cost extra as they weren't used.

And spelling? The concept of a spell checker was obviously beyond them.

The real topper, though?

Wesson was spelled incorrectly.

Twice.

[Blueduck]

Still no spell check as of last week Mike. They checked my gap with a "gage"

I will say as a final thought, the gun in various conditions it was returned to me would go "bang" if the trigger was pulled in each of them. Honestly that will likely keep 80-90% of customers happy.

I'm thinking though that the shops motto should be changed from: "The same craftsmen that build the unique pistols and revolvers sought by the most demanding shooters can apply their skills to your handguns."

To: "We do our best to make your gun go bang in 4-6 weeks"

Moving on to bigger and better, will update in separate thread as to what exactly was wrong and how/if it was fixed by private party at future date.

Thanks for all the assistance and opinions.

[Mike Irwin]

"They checked my gap with a "gage""

And how did you respond to the challenge? Have you set a date for the duel yet? :)

A spell checker wouldn't necessarily have picked that up, as it's an actual word, an item, such as a glove or gauntlet, that is thrown down as a challenge.

I swear, though, that S&W needs concept checkers more than they need spell checkers.

[Old Fuff]

Blueduck:

Good luck. I hope this works out for you.

[Blueduck]

Well if I do have to dual them I guess I'll choose swords as I seem a bit light on pistols at the moment ;)

BTW I know I said I was outta here, but got what I think is a pertinant e-mail from C&C about the gap thing. Told them what happened at S/W and said I was not happy with thier standards of .004" runout being ok, and was wondering if C/C standards were any different (to make sure I would not get the same thing back from them). Also mentioned I was really hoping for a gap of less than .010" just for my own fuzzy feeling. Here's the response:

"Our standard specification for barrel to cylinder gap is .005 - .006. It is
not unusual to see some run out but we try to keep it to a minium (.0005)."

Sound like what I'm looking for, I'll take Old Fuffs offer of luck and give'em a try.

Best, Blueduck

[Sven]

Hey, let's print out Jim March's guide and mail it to their QA and Repair shops, laminated, in big fonts.

[braindead0]

Hey, let's print out Jim March's guide and mail it to their QA and Repair shops, laminated, in big fonts.

There's a plan.. I never buy a revolver (new or used) without going through the entire process, and I've always got a set of feeler guages in my truck. I think the guy at Gander Mt. thought I was nuts when I did the checkout on a new GP-100.. it passed with flying colors (.004 both side, all cylinders).

[capnrik]

Wow, memory lane.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=76285&perpage=25&pagenumber=6 (http://http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=76285&perpage=25&pagenumber=6)

On page 6, I posted:

The worst was a S&W Model 28...
I bought it brand new in 1977. All it took was twelve rounds of my target reloads, and the cylinder would lock up.

I shot 2.6 grains of Bullseye behind 148 grain HBWC bullets.

I was a machinist at the time, so I measured the cylinder length.

It was .009" out of square! The closest cylinder gap was no more than .002", so after a few rounds, the powder residue build up locked her down...

Pawned it.

[bountyhunter]

Still no spell check as of last week Mike. They checked my gap with a "gage"

You think that's funny. When the gas tank gets low on my Chevy Cavalier, there is a flashing red light that comes on that says:

"CHECK GAGES"

I swear I am not making that up. Maybe "gage" will be added to the dictionary?

[bountyhunter]

Apparrently "gage" is an accepted alternate spelling for "gauge" now. "Gage" used to be the gauntlet that a knight would throw down to challenge another knight to combat.

[Mike Irwin]

"Apparrently "gage" is an accepted alternate spelling for "gauge" now."

It is, at least among the lazy and/or stupid, apparently, such as Chevrolet, Smith & Wesson...

[MR.G]

Re: Cylinder & Slide align barrel to cylinder chamber.
How do you properly align the barrel to the cylinder chambers ? What has to be done ? Is it possible for only one or two cylinders to be out of alignment ?

[Mike Irwin]

Usually it involves reworking the yoke crane. Sometimes it's as simple as replacing the crane.

If the frame is sprung, sometimes it can be trued if it's not too bad.

If one or two chambers is out of true with the bore, however, that normally means that the cylinder is simply misbored. If that's the case, a replacement cylinder is in order.

[Kentucky Rifle]

Kate is usually pretty nice. I like her.
"Herb" is not nice. (I wonder if he knows the meaning of "nice" or "customer service".) I advise people who get "Herb" to just ask for Kate. (Or hang up.)
~I *apologize*, Terry. I know Herb is a friend of yours. However, he's been nothing but hateful to me. So again, I apologize. (To YOU.)

KR

[mete]

Up to .010" gap ? As I remember 30 years ago it was .002-.006" But then this is one more reason that some of us gave up on a company that onc e produced the finest handguns in the world.

[bountyhunter]

Up to .010" gap ? As I remember 30 years ago it was .002-.006" But then this is one more reason that some of us gave up on a company that onc e produced the finest handguns in the world.

Kuhnhausen says the service limit is .003 to .010. But service limit means just that: it's how far a gun has to wear before it needs servicing. It should certainly not reflect the range of gaps coming out on new guns. (which IMHO, should be more like .004 - .006)

[MR.G]

Maby this thread should be emailed to someone at S&W ?

[Mike Irwin]

I sincerely doubt they'd even take notice... :(

[C.R.Sam]

Have checked out a number of really recent Smiths.
Found a few ways to get different gaps side to side.

Barrel miscut.
Crane not true.
Cylinder not true.
Frame not true.
Hole in frame where barrel screws in not true.

New, unsold guns.

Sad.

Sam

[Mike Irwin]

I'm going to have to start taking a feeler gauge along with me when I go to a show.

I've never done it in the past, I've always waited until I get back...

[feedthehogs]

Increasing costs and lower retail product prices = lousy quality.

The products my business uses have seen an across the board decline.

Bad out of the box has been the norm rather than the exception.

Guns we think because of the personal nature of them should be different.

To most of the large companies its just another product.